Supernatural abilities DC

[World]

Hello.

I always thought than Supernatural Abilities DC was calculated using 10+ ½ the creature’s HD (racial + class) + cha modifier.

But then i had a look on most of the monsters inside the manual and it doesn't count Class hit dice (see mummy lord, or even archon champion).


Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
With the description above i suppose that the creature's hit dices are the racial ones plus the class ones. So the formula entry at the end of the monster manual should include even the class hit dice in the description (10 + hit dice + cha modifier)

and then at the start of the monster manual:


When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.

The save DC is given in the creature’s description along with the ability on which the DC is based.

What is the right formula? What am i missing?

[AureliusDuPrix]

I'm presuming that you're using this for a home brew creature? I always used the latter formulae.

[World]

I'm presuming that you're using this for a home brew creature? I always used the latter formulae.

I just want to know what is the right formula. Supernatural ability entry at the end of the monster manual says 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + Cha mod.

Creature's HD includes racial + class ones as far as i intend.

Monster manual entry says 10 + 1/2 racial creature's HD + cha mod.

What is the right one?

[Andorax]

Racial is correct. Innate abilities are based on how much of a (whatever you are) you are. Class-based HD added to that doesn't affect your inborn racial abilities.

Dragons don't get harder-to-resist dragonbreath by taking fighter levels.

[Keld Denar]

Consult the book of monsters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11444589#post11444589)


One thing to notice is that many of these abilities have save DCs. If you've ever played a spellcaster, you know that your spells have save DCs equal to 10+spell level+key ability modifier, where the key ability modifier depends on the class involved. Spell-like abilities are almost exactly the same, but the key ability modifier for spell-like abilities is Charisma unless otherwise noted. Extraordinary and Supernatural Abilities aren't based on spells, so they don't have a spell level for that formula. Instead, you use half of the monster's Racial Hit Dice as an effective spell level. The key ability varies based on what sort of ability the monster has: breath weapons usually use Constitution, Trample attacks use Strength, while many Supernatural Abilities use Charisma. Most of the time the description of the ability itself will tell you what the key ability is. For example, the Vrock's Stunning Screech says that the save DC is Constitution-based. Let's check: 10+5 (half of 10 racial hit dice) +7 (Constitution bonus) = 22, which is the DC to resist the Vrock's Stunning Screech!

[World]

Consult the book of monsters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11444589#post11444589)

I like the topic, but where is the quoted text of that rule in the manuals? Can i find that rule on any of our handbooks?

[Psyren]

The correct formula is in Rules Compendium pg. 119:


Supernatural ability saving throw DC = 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the modifier for the ability score on which the ability is based + other modifiers (often racial)

[Jack_Simth]

What is the right formula? What am i missing?The right formula is the one that will result in the most fun for the group.

What you seem to be missing is a realization: WotC is not consistent. Depending on where you look, you get a different answer.

Under "Reading the entries" for monsters in the SRD, it says: "10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#specialAttacksAndSpecialQualities)"

Meanwhile, under the special abilities and conditions section of the SRD, it says: "10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)"

Now, in general, specific trumps general (so if a given ability specifies class HD, or specifies racial HD, then that's correct for that ability). However, WotC is not consistent. So go with whatever results in the most "fun" for your group.

[Debihuman]

The formula in "Reading the Monster Entries" is probably wrong. Everywhere else in all the monster books for 3.5 the formula is 10 + monster's HD + relevant ability score (usually Charisma). Use the most recent version of the rules. The Rules Compendium says this,"Supernatural ability saving throw DC = 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the modifier for the ability score on which the ability is based + other modifiers (often racial)." That should be the definitive answer as it is the most current.

Also, if you do not scale the DC of the Special Abilities, the PCs will eventually make all their saves simply by Taking 10. That rather makes the monsters too glass-jawed to take class levels. This is also my utter displeasure with WotC -- they had terrible editors. The monster books are full of stupid mistakes.

Also the whole line is in the SRD actually says this: "Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:
10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier. The save DC is given in the creature’s description along with the ability on which the DC is based." Emphasis mine. That is because most monsters in the SRD do not have class levels. Note that how the designer's calculated the saving throws for most monsters does not mean that it will work on monsters with class levels.

Debby

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, if you do not scale the DC of the Special Abilities, the PCs will eventually make all their saves simply by Taking 10.

You can't "Take 10" on Saving Throws.... :smallconfused: