Arcane Heirophant & Stacking Class Features

[Elric VIII]

I just thought of an interesting idea for an Arcane Heirophant build that does some stacking of Animal Companion and Familiars.


The idea will start with Wizard 1/Druid 4 with Precocious Apprentice.


If I take the UA Wizard variant that grants me an Animal Companion of 1/2 my level at level 1, instead of a familiar, will it stack with my Druid AC?


Does AH actually need you to posess a familiar? It mentions stacking AH levels to give it the abilities of an equivalent level familiar, but classes that do not get familiars can still meet all of th prerequisites.


Can I take Improved Familiar after my 1st AH level in order to bypass the need to dismiss a familiar?


If the above is true, can I then take the Theurgic Bond (Dragon 325 p62) to add my arcane CL to my AC level, since Imp. Familiar is based on total arcane CL?


Can I take Leadership to give my AC class levels? How would you stack the bonus HD from druid with class levels to determine the leadership level?


I'm not sure how powerful using all of your feats to pump up your AC's power really is, but this is the best way I can think of to meet the archetype of a buffer/supporter trainer that uses his companion to fight for him.


A totemist Animal Companion just feels right. I just imagine some large wolf-like creature surrounded by the spirits of his ancestors in the form of soulmelds, each baring a slight image of a spirit overlaying his body.

[Elric VIII]

So, I just want to bump this with the way that I think the various things stack and ask what people's opinions on my interpretations are.

The build is meant to focus on the AC, I see no reason for Mystic Theurge, as the AH is only meant to give my AC a 3+ Int score. Build will be Wizard 1/Druid 4/AH 10/X 5.

If there are any good classes that advance AC and spellcasting for the last 5 levels, that would be cool. I don't really care about Wildshape.

1. I know Druid and Ranger levels explicity stack. Even though it does not mention other classes that grant AC, it seems to be the intent that they stack.

2. This one seems obvious, I just asked to make sure I'm not missing something. A familiar is not explicitly needed.

3. The ability says you must dismiss your current familiar, but makes no mention of being unable to acquire another familiar. Although it can be loosely read to mean that a Wizard can just dismiss his first familiar and later acquire a second, I think the intent there is obvious. However, the Obtain Familiar feat bypasses normal familiar restrictions, so it seems reasonable to allow it to work this way.

4. Concerning Theurgic bond and Obtain Familiar:
Obtain Familiar says: "For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack."

Theurgic Bond says: "When determinint tha abilities of your chosen familiar or animal companion you can combine the levels of the spellcasting classes that grant either an animal companion or familiar."
Since your new familiar is granted abilities by all levels in arcane spellcasting classes, It seems that your AC would be equal to (Druid level) + (Wizard level) + 2*(Arcane Heirophant level) + (class X level). This would allow you to (with Natural Bond) have an AC that would be equivalent to a 33rd level Druid, at level 20. That makes for one powerful Dire Tiger.

5. DMG 200 has a formula for making a Paladin's Special Mount into a cohort, I assume this would work for an intelligent AC, as well. The base animal receives a +2 LA and the bonus HD seems to be added on after everrything else (otherwise you would always have a mount with more Hd than you, making leadership irrelevent). I assume the feats and ability score increases are acquired through a dynamic relationship between your level and the AC cohort's level.


If anyone has any information on how these interpretations might be wrong, I would gladly welcome it.

[Gotterdammerung]

1# it would stack in the same way druid and rng lvls stack for animal companions. 1 wiz 5 druid would be 5.5 lvl animal companion.

#2 No Arcane heirophant does not require that you have a familiar. Familiar companion still works even if you were wizard who never called a familiar or a bard who never had a familiar.

3# No once you give up your familiar for the Familiar companion ability, you can never again gain a familiar. Similarly, a wizard could not use obtain familiar to gain a second familiar. This is because you can only have 1 familiar at any given time. Your new familiar companion is both your familiar and your animal companion, therefore you can not gain any more familiars because you alredy have 1.

4# the point of theurgic bond is similar to the point of animal bond. When u take the feat you choose either your familiar or your animal companion. Lets say i am a 3 druid 3 wiz, and i choose animal companion, then i would add my 3 druid and 3 from the class that grants me a familiar (wiz) for a total animal companion lvl of 6. You can take the feat again and choose differently so i could take it twice in this scenario and gain a familiar and an animal companion of lvl 6.
The important thing to remember is Theurgic bond will only give you 1 lvl to your pet for each lvl of a class that gives a pet. Theoretically this means that you could argue that lvls in Arcane heirophant would count twice but most every GM would not allow that due to redundancy.

5# this would be totally up to your GM

[Elric VIII]

3# No once you give up your familiar for the Familiar companion ability, you can never again gain a familiar. Similarly, a wizard could not use obtain familiar to gain a second familiar. This is because you can only have 1 familiar at any given time. Your new familiar companion is both your familiar and your animal companion, therefore you can not gain any more familiars because you alredy have 1.

Does it matter that the ability's wording uses "dismiss" rather than "give up" or "lose?"

I just ask because this is very different from the UA Specialist Wizard variants that permanently bar you from acquiring a familiar and closer to the PHBII variants that are often accompanied with the advice to get the Obtain Familiar feat.

EDIT: I just realized that you said it counts as a familiar, as well as an AC. You are correct, this won't work.


The important thing to remember is Theurgic bond will only give you 1 lvl to your pet for each lvl of a class that gives a pet. Theoretically this means that you could argue that lvls in Arcane heirophant would count twice but most every GM would not allow that due to redundancy.

I figured it would be like Halfling Outrider with Devoted Tracker, which stacks Paladin Mount and AC levels. Although, I do see the difference between my suggestion and the Outrider. I guess this is the kind of thing to take up with the DM.



5# this would be totally up to your GM

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much precedent on this topic. Considering the amount of companion-granting abilities in D&D, one might think it more common.


Thank you for the help.

[Godskook]

First, gotta say, welcome to the supermount optimization arena.


If I take the UA Wizard variant that grants me an Animal Companion of 1/2 my level at level 1, instead of a familiar, will it stack with my Druid AC?

1. I know Druid and Ranger levels explicity stack. Even though it does not mention other classes that grant AC, it seems to be the intent that they stack.

UA Wizard grants an AC as if by the Druid class feature. Since the Druid class feature stacks, it stacks. However, if you're doing Early entry efforts, this isn't really going to get you anything useful, since fractions are rounded down, iirc.


Does AH actually need you to posess a familiar? It mentions stacking AH levels to give it the abilities of an equivalent level familiar, but classes that do not get familiars can still meet all of th prerequisites.

2. This one seems obvious, I just asked to make sure I'm not missing something. A familiar is not explicitly needed.

Not needed, but Obtain familiar or another method of getting a decent familiar progression is recommended, especially if you're going down this road(the supermount one).


Can I take Improved Familiar after my 1st AH level in order to bypass the need to dismiss a familiar?

3. The ability says you must dismiss your current familiar, but makes no mention of being unable to acquire another familiar. Although it can be loosely read to mean that a Wizard can just dismiss his first familiar and later acquire a second, I think the intent there is obvious. However, the Obtain Familiar feat bypasses normal familiar restrictions, so it seems reasonable to allow it to work this way.

Far as I know, the 'accepted' RAI is that Obtain Familiar would improve your progression up to your effective caster class level, and Improved Familiar would do nothing.

By strict RAW, I can't find anything that actually says that a Companion Familiar is counted as an actual Familiar, so you might be able to swing that in such an environment. However, by strict RAW pun-pun.


If the above is true, can I then take the Theurgic Bond (Dragon 325 p62) to add my arcane CL to my AC level, since Imp. Familiar is based on total arcane CL?

This doesn't work, but for a different reason. Theurgic Bond doesn't let you 'double dip' your Arcane Heirophant levels, period. Theurgic bond is more useful for progressing your familiar progression while in, say Halfling Outrider.


Can I take Leadership to give my AC class levels? How would you stack the bonus HD from druid with class levels to determine the leadership level?

5. DMG 200 has a formula for making a Paladin's Special Mount into a cohort, I assume this would work for an intelligent AC, as well. The base animal receives a +2 LA and the bonus HD seems to be added on after everrything else (otherwise you would always have a mount with more Hd than you, making leadership irrelevent). I assume the feats and ability score increases are acquired through a dynamic relationship between your level and the AC cohort's level.

The 'rules' for that aren't so much rules as they are Adaption suggestions, and thus, aren't really RAW.

However, you can get some interesting animal companions, or rather, Special Mounts.

Iirc, the base build for the Supermount went something like:

Paladin 4/Druid 3/Wizard 1/Arcane Hierophant 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Beastmaster 1

Feats
-Devoted Tracker
-Theurgic Bond(improving the familiar)
-Dragon Steed
-Natural Bond

EDL - 3(Druid)+1(AH)+10(HORider)+4(BMaster)+4(NBond) = 22(Capped at 20)
EWL - 16-19(not sure how Beastmaster interacts with Theurgic Bond)
EPL - 14

You have your choice of a Gold, Silver or Bronze dragon, and it gets the full benefit of your EDL for determining its animal companion benefits and your EWL for determining its familiar benefits.

[ranagrande]

That build doesn't work. The Druid has to have a Neutral aspect in its alignment and the Paladin has to be Lawful Good. (Or CG or LE or CE if you are using variants, but I don't know of any neutral ones.)

[Elric VIII]

*snip*

Alright, thank you. That does seem like a lot of HD and power.


That build doesn't work. The Druid has to have a Neutral aspect in its alignment and the Paladin has to be Lawful Good. (Or CG or LE or CE if you are using variants, but I don't know of any neutral ones.)

There are some neutral versions of the Paladin in a Dragon Magazine that gain a mount.

[Gotterdammerung]

You don't need obtain familiar if your going the AH route. Essentially, Familiar Companion gives you the benefit you were trying to get out of obtain familiar. It counts lvls in watever mage class you used to get into the prestige class for your familiar lvl


Since AH essentially will give you a familiar I usually try to sub out my familiar from wizard for a better class feature like Sun and moon.

I also like using Cerval out of sandstorm as my pet. With reduce animal it can be made tiny. And then through all the bonus HD can gain feats designed for smaller creatures like Confound the big folk, Giant Bane, and underfoot combat (elusive target also fits in nicely.) With his tiny size all of the abilities from these feats can be activated on medium creatures. You can utilize spells with size restrictions designed for familiars, like familiar pocket. You have an easier time getting an exotic house cat into civilized areas (or pretty much any area). You can take advantage of the enemy underestimating you.

You might be worried about a cerval's damage potential, but with all the spells that enhance a familiars combat prowess and all the druidic spells for buffing animals, it really is a furball frenzy. And since you have redundant ways to make the enemy hit their allies, you can rob damage, making the DM work for you.

And finally the armor class gets pretty sick. I was playing this build in the RPGA back when it was in greyhawk, and its a heavy regulated campaign, so the crazy cheese is usually not allowed. And i remember having his armor class break 65 in on mod. And that was at lvl 12 as a 3 wiz/3dru/1beastmaster/5arcane heirophant.

On time we ended up fighting 4 of these templeted crazy strong obscure anthripamorphic giant things. My cerval charged ahead of the group outside the range anyone else could hope to move and pounced into one of the giants. 2 of them broke off and headed for the group and 2 stayed on my kitty kat. My cerval killed his 2 without ever taking a hit and raced back over to help us finish killing the last one. We were all beat up and my cat hadnt ever been hit.

[Gotterdammerung]

also in that previous mentioned build, are you using southern magician to get away with prerequing for arcane heirophant with only 1 wizard lvl?

And how are you getting a gold dragon ect. The feat? The version I read in the draconomicon said it gave u a dragonnel.

[Godskook]

also in that previous mentioned build, are you using southern magician to get away with prerequing for arcane heirophant with only 1 wizard lvl?

And how are you getting a gold dragon ect. The feat? The version I read in the draconomicon said it gave u a dragonnel.

1.The 'Special' section of the feat says that Paladins are to see page 139 for a longer description.
2.Page 139 describes that at later paladin levels, you may select things other than a Dragonnel.

And as far as early entry into Arcane Heirophant, I'm leaving that as an exercise for the reader, but where TO is concerned, all early entry cheese is now on the table.

[Elric VIII]

1.The 'Special' section of the feat says that Paladins are to see page 139 for a longer description.
2.Page 139 describes that at later paladin levels, you may select things other than a Dragonnel.

And as far as early entry into Arcane Heirophant, I'm leaving that as an exercise for the reader, but where TO is concerned, all early entry cheese is now on the table.

Yeah, I figured since this build is not meant to really be about the PC, early entry is entirely unnecessary and the resources required would be better served taking companion buffs.

[Godskook]

Yeah, I figured since this build is not meant to really be about the PC, early entry is entirely unnecessary and the resources required would be better served taking companion buffs.

If you don't use early entry for Arcane Heirophant, you're sacrificing levels of Halfling outrider. Considering wizard wouldn't progress EPL, and only progress EDL at half the rate(without spending a feat), you're probably better off spending the feat to enter AH early than just sucking up the wizard levels, unless this is PO instead of TO. And in that case, I'm not sure how much of this a particular DM would allow(particularly the EE and Dragon stuff).

[Elric VIII]

If you don't use early entry for Arcane Heirophant, you're sacrificing levels of Halfling outrider. Considering wizard wouldn't progress EPL, and only progress EDL at half the rate(without spending a feat), you're probably better off spending the feat to enter AH early than just sucking up the wizard levels, unless this is PO instead of TO. And in that case, I'm not sure how much of this a particular DM would allow(particularly the EE and Dragon stuff).

Conveniently enough, there is a feat that stacks EWL and EPL, so I figure that it would be tolerated more than early entry, even though your casting isn't going to be that great either way.

This is more of an exercise to try to make the character concept of a Spirit/Demon Tamer by putting meldshaping onto an animal. While I suppose I could just play an Anthro Animal X and take leadership for the tamer, I was hoping that it could be achieved with the humanoid as the base character.

Thank you, however.

[Gotterdammerung]

1.The 'Special' section of the feat says that Paladins are to see page 139 for a longer description.
2.Page 139 describes that at later paladin levels, you may select things other than a Dragonnel.

And as far as early entry into Arcane Heirophant, I'm leaving that as an exercise for the reader, but where TO is concerned, all early entry cheese is now on the table.

Sorry for my ignorance, but i have never been good at abbreviations.

What is TO?

And PO?

[2xMachina]

Theoretical Optimization: Not for game use

Practical Optimization: The DM won't throw the DMG at you. Probably.

[Gotterdammerung]

Well with 21 lvls and using fractional bab option out of UA

Southern magician

1 wiz with familiar learn prot evil

4 lvls druid

1 beastmaster

1 fleshwarper

1 arcane heirophant

1 soldier of light

2 nuetral good variant paladin with paladin as prestige class variant

10 lvls hafling outrider


EFL 18
EDL 22

EPL 15

juggling skill points for prerequs would be a pain but its doable.

Your main character would be mostly worthless but your pet would be strong
But on the right pet it could be nasty.

Just to see , a giant crocodile would look like this {some of the stats would change due to personal choice, i will list them in {these}

25d8+150{200} HP 278 {328}
Gargantuan animal
Speed 30 swim 40
AC 39 (-4 size, +3 dex, +40 Natural armor) (+4 from mage armor is possible)

Bab18 grapple 47

Bite +31/+26 3d8+25 {4d8+25 with power attack as an option}

Space20/reach15

6 feats (9 if you replace the original 3, even more if you want to use flaws on it)



And you can use enlarge person to make it colossal =)
44 strength 17 dex 23 con 14int 12wis 2chr with (5 points from lvls to allocate) {my choice would be 48 str 24 con)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

And you can use enlarge person to make it colossal =)
A crocodile isn't a person... >.>
Animal Growth on the other hand should work just as good, if not better. Assuming that a familiar companion is still considered an animal. *checks* Yes, it is.

[Gotterdammerung]

A crocodile isn't a person... >.>
Animal Growth on the other hand should work just as good, if not better. Assuming that a familiar companion is still considered an animal. *checks* Yes, it is.

Except that familiars are allowed to bypass restrictions based on creature type via "share spell".

And the range of said share spell can be increased many ways to allow for effective use in combat.

Ergo, enlarge yourself and wala... Colossal Crocodile