Playground, what's the scouter say about his power level?

[Ursus the Grim]

ITS OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND!!!
Ha, and you thought I'd bust out some old, overplayed meme.

As I've previously mentioned here, I don't have a good eye for judging power levels. I've also mentioned that I'm building a 'god' character for an IRL game. This is an important detail, because its a source of several ability score increases, some light DR, maximum hit points, and a Wild Shape ability. Could you guys help me in that regard?

We don't have gear yet, but VoP was forbidden.:smallwink:

That being said, here are the relevant sheets. The first is self-explanatory, the other two are his most common Wild Shapes.
Humanoid, Natural Form (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=327419)
The Pouncer, General Combat Form (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=327426)
Halfling Hunter (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=327449)

Now, all the other players got similar buffs to their ability scores, tailored to what their deity included in the portfolio. With that in mind, where do you think this would fall in terms of strength and/or versatility? Use tiers if you must. I know he's hardly a caster, but did I at least make him reasonable as a melee fighter?

In b4 ToB, I didn't like the flavor of a T-Rex invoking "Claw at the Moon".

[Enterti]

soo its pretty much a barbarian/fighter with wildshape? hes a high tier 4, so just as good as most other non ToB melee classes. he will hit stuff and get a bit more versatility out of wildshape but he wont hit tier 3 though, he just doesn't have the ability to affect any situation.

[Fizban]

I can't say I like most of your feats aside from Multiattack and maybe Improved Bite. Rapid Assault is a joke: +1d6 on the first round of combat only? Even if you hit on all your pounce attacks that's only 5d6 [17.5] damage, and that's assuming you're able to charge them in the first round, which you can't do if they're closer than 10', or there's bad terrain in the way, or if they shot you at range, or a lot of other possible problems. You're a barbarian with 20 con and maximized hit points, so you really shouldn't need to burn feats on more of them. You can get Track along with a bunch of skills with a Ranger dip, which can be improved further with various class feature substitutions (like Speak with Animals/Plants instead of Wild Empathy). Improved Initiative is one of those "never a bad idea" feats, but it's usually better for early on when you can't qualify for anything else you really want. Improved Crit really doesn't give you much damage in the long run, though I can see why you'd like to stack it on top of the Smilodon's Augmented Critical (though this doesn't seem to be reflected on your sheet, Smilodon bite starts at 19-20/x3 if I remember right, so you should have 17-20). If most foes are crittable and you can stack those then go for it. Finally, I see no Power Attack at all. Even when you're using natural weapons it's a good thing to have around just in case you need to grind something with low AC into a paste, and of course it's the main source of damage if you want to hit something with a weapon in humanoid form.

You may not want to use ToB in the build, but you've already got a feat from it so I assume you have access to the book. You don't need to use it, but I don't see why you couldn't be a clever beast that knows how to emulate the crocodile's death roll or use sudden leap or whatever. It's still an intelligent brain controlling the wild shaped monster form.

For feats I'd obviously suggest Power Attack and then, well, pretty much whatever you want that's not just a flat bonus. Even Powerful Charge (Mini's Handbook/Eberron Campaign Setting) will give you 2d6 on the first attack of every charge, better than Rapid Assault. Reckless Rage (Races of Stone) will make your rage better. You could take the Trapkiller variant (Dungeonscape) to actually do something about traps instead of having a crappy bonus on saves against them. You could take Dungeon Crasher (also Dungeonscape) and see if you DM will let you use the height of large size to bull rush medium creatures into the ground. The various various Unearthed Arcana and Complete Champion totems may be worthwhile, gaining you Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, or Pounce, unless you'd rather keep Uncanny Dodge and Fast Movement (quite useful).

For wildshape forms, I don't have many suggestions. You've already got a pouncer picked out, and Cave Tyrannosaur is an extremely stylish alternate. Bears are better in straight full attacking, but considering the title of "halfling hunter", I assume you'll mainly be using it for swallowing things whole. When you get access to huge size with 14 HD, look up the Ceratosaur in Serpent Kingdoms. It's got a cool "rend" ability-when it grapples with improved grab it deals extra damage, then you can just release and do it again next round, making it good at dealing damage even though it only has one bite attack. The Allosaurus from MMII is also good, basically a T-Rex++ with claws and rakes and trampling in addition to it's swallow whole. Other than that, just find the biggest baddest flyer you can shape into (probably Dire Eagle, Races of Stone) for when that's what you need.

[Ursus the Grim]

soo its pretty much a barbarian/fighter with wildshape? hes a high tier 4, so just as good as most other non ToB melee classes. he will hit stuff and get a bit more versatility out of wildshape but he wont hit tier 3 though, he just doesn't have the ability to affect any situation.

Yeah, I figured that, for the most part. See, we've got some people for pretty much every role except for pure melee damage.

We've got some players that play low op, but have mid op characters. Spellcasters that don't really know how to get the most out of their spells and all that.


Rapid Assault is a joke: +1d6 on the first round of combat only? Even if you hit on all your pounce attacks that's only 5d6 [17.5] damage, and that's assuming you're able to charge them in the first round, which you can't do if they're closer than 10', or there's bad terrain in the way, or if they shot you at range, or a lot of other possible problems.

Yeah. Rapid Assault's flaws have been pointed out to me before. I think I'm overly impressed with it because it worked with a Thri-Kreen TWF build I made which proceeded to demolish things at at a similiar level.


Improved Initiative is one of those "never a bad idea" feats, but it's usually better for early on when you can't qualify for anything else you really want.

I thought it would be a good idea, given Rapid Assault and the pounce, to catch opponents early.


Improved Crit really doesn't give you much damage in the long run, though I can see why you'd like to stack it on top of the Smilodon's Augmented Critical (though this doesn't seem to be reflected on your sheet, Smilodon bite starts at 19-20/x3 if I remember right, so you should have 17-20). If most foes are crittable and you can stack those then go for it.

I don't see the Smilodon Bite starting at 19-20. I'll go look for an errata. But doubling your crit threat rate doesn't increase damage? I kind of have to argue that point. Given guidelines in the DMG, I should be practically certain to confirm crits, so dealing triple damage twice as often? I think roughly a ten percent damage increase over time. Its not crazy high-op, but I'd hesitate to call it useless.

We don't often come up against crit-immune creatures anyway.


Finally, I see no Power Attack at all. Even when you're using natural weapons it's a good thing to have around just in case you need to grind something with low AC into a paste, and of course it's the main source of damage if you want to hit something with a weapon in humanoid form.

Power Attack's never really impressed me without Shock Trooper and/or some metagaming. Sure, I might know exactly how much to take off from my attacks to still be certain to hit that Ooze, but my character probably wouldn't. Its also a little less effective because I'm using Wild Shape. It would be fine for the T-Rex bite, but I would rather hit than deal massive damage if I'm using that one.

Still, I'll see if I can do some shuffling with it.


You may not want to use ToB in the build, but you've already got a feat from it so I assume you have access to the book. You don't need to use it, but I don't see why you couldn't be a clever beast that knows how to emulate the crocodile's death roll or use sudden leap or whatever. It's still an intelligent brain controlling the wild shaped monster form.

Mostly, the rest of the group is unfamiliar with ToB and doesn't realize it as a neccesity. I've been trying to ease them into it. Apparently the aforementioned Thri-Kreen Crit-fishing Swordsage was a little intimidating.


Even Powerful Charge (Mini's Handbook/Eberron Campaign Setting) will give you 2d6 on the first attack of every charge, better than Rapid Assault. Reckless Rage (Races of Stone) will make your rage better. You could take the Trapkiller variant (Dungeonscape) to actually do something about traps instead of having a crappy bonus on saves against them. You could take Dungeon Crasher (also Dungeonscape) and see if you DM will let you use the height of large size to bull rush medium creatures into the ground. The various various Unearthed Arcana and Complete Champion totems may be worthwhile, gaining you Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, or Pounce, unless you'd rather keep Uncanny Dodge and Fast Movement (quite useful).

I think I'm more likely to be able to charge on round one. Setting up for charges as the sole brawler in a melee is going to be difficult once everyone closes with me.

I will look at the other suggestions, most of them I wasn't familiar with, though I've been keeping ACFs to a minimum.


Other than that, just find the biggest baddest flyer you can shape into (probably Dire Eagle, Races of Stone) for when that's what you need.

Thanks. I was considering Dire Hawk for a flier, but all of these suggestions are pretty solid.

[Talya]

soo its pretty much a barbarian/fighter with wildshape? hes a high tier 4, so just as good as most other non ToB melee classes. he will hit stuff and get a bit more versatility out of wildshape but he wont hit tier 3 though, he just doesn't have the ability to affect any situation.

Interesting. You think the anemic spellcasting of a wildshape ranger (not Mystic Ranger) is what moves them up to Tier 3, then? I always understood the wildshape feature itself is pretty much a tier-3 class defining ability.

[Ursus the Grim]

Interesting. You think the anemic spellcasting of a wildshape ranger (not Mystic Ranger) is what moves them up to Tier 3, then? I always understood the wildshape feature itself is pretty much a tier-3 class defining ability.

I think I'm just losing major points for playing core melee instead of ToB.:smallwink:

[Enterti]

Interesting. You think the anemic spellcasting of a wildshape ranger (not Mystic Ranger) is what moves them up to Tier 3, then? I always understood the wildshape feature itself is pretty much a tier-3 class defining ability.

Anemic casting is better than no casting. Not to mention it also has more/better class skills and more skill points per level.

[Talya]

Anemic casting is better than no casting. Not to mention it also has more/better class skills and more skill points per level.

Wildshape ranger is tier 3 despite only getting small and medium forms. Sounds like Ursus is getting full druidic wildshape progression...

[Ursus the Grim]

Wildshape ranger is tier 3 despite only getting small and medium forms. Sounds like Ursus is getting full druidic wildshape progression...

Thats exactly what I'm getting. DM has ruled that I will qualify for the Wild Shape classes later as well. So I'm stacking more HP and (arguably) better class features onto my Wild Shapes.

We've also got three casters in the group. Two of which cast as Level 10 in one class and Level 5 in another. Anemic spells will most certainly not be needed.

[Tvtyrant]

soo its pretty much a barbarian/fighter with wildshape? hes a high tier 4, so just as good as most other non ToB melee classes. he will hit stuff and get a bit more versatility out of wildshape but he wont hit tier 3 though, he just doesn't have the ability to affect any situation.

I would argue flat 3. Wildshape can find a form for every occasion.

[Enterti]

I would argue flat 3. Wildshape can find a form for every occasion.

Eh I still think high 4 or maybe low 3 at best, but it doesn't really matter. Sounds like his character is the meatshield of his group so versatility won't really be needed from him.

[Talya]

Thats exactly what I'm getting. DM has ruled that I will qualify for the Wild Shape classes later as well. So I'm stacking more HP and (arguably) better class features onto my Wild Shapes.

We've also got three casters in the group. Two of which cast as Level 10 in one class and Level 5 in another. Anemic spells will most certainly not be needed.

Work master of many forms into your build from the start, maybe? It would go VERY well with this type of build.

[Ursus the Grim]

Work master of many forms into your build from the start, maybe? It would go VERY well with this type of build.

That was nixed, unfortunately. My DM is well aware of my optimizing inclinations, part of the reason I decided to go Barb. I asked at what level I attained this Wild Shape and he said 10, specifically saying he didn't want me picking up the prestige classes before play.

Unfortunately, I forgot to work in feat and skill pre-reqs and the character's been submitted so. . . yeah.

Also of note is that its unlimited usages. I'm waiting for him to realize the horror of this mistake before I pick up any Wild Feats that would effectively be permanent increases.

[enderlord99]

ITS OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND!!!
Ha, and you thought I'd bust out some old, overplayed meme.

...You did.:smallannoyed::smallamused:

[Ursus the Grim]

It occurs to me that MoMF actually wouldn't work well in this particular case. I'd have quite a few dead levels because I'm effectively entering it as a Druid 10 for Wild Shape. I'm thinking of going with Nature's Warrior instead, which would allow me to double dip for those levels with Wild Shape. (I Wild Shape as Druid=ECL, and Nature's Warrior stacks with that). That would technically get me Huge earlier, I think and ramp up my HD faster.

[Jude_H]

MoMF has more abilities than size increases. Level 1's a bit of a dud, but starting at MoMF2, you'd start getting shapes like Cave Troll and Firbolg - definitely more useful than Nature Warrior's +2 NA/+1 BA, IMO.

[Tvtyrant]

MoMF also gets you gargantuan wildshape, which means you can become a Roc or Siege Crab. Or a Gargantuan Scorpion earlier on. Instant victory!

[Ursus the Grim]

MoMF has more abilities than size increases. Level 1's a bit of a dud, but starting at MoMF2, you'd start getting shapes like Cave Troll and Firbolg - definitely more useful than Nature Warrior's +2 NA/+1 BA, IMO.


MoMF also gets you gargantuan wildshape, which means you can become a Roc or Siege Crab. Or a Gargantuan Scorpion earlier on. Instant victory!

Well, I was worried about lack of HD increase, but I just checked and the errata fixed that.

The type variety isn't quite important to me, as the fluff demands that I take the form of some savage predator. While I could argue things like the troll, or the roc, or the scorpion. . . wait, all of these things are predators. :smallbiggrin:

The size, though, was the most important thing. I would have to wait 6 levels to go Huge, and 10 for Gargantuan, whereas I would reach Huge in 5 levels anyway. There's a lot of overlap in here.