Just Run.

[Drakevarg]

An idea occurred to me not ten minutes ago to make a staple of my campaigns a bit more reusable.

On a number of occasions, I've set upon my players an entity known as the "Chained Man." While mechanically he's never been anything more than a Kyton, I've always introduced him in such a manner that my party is utterly terrified of the mere mention of chains anywhere in my games.

The problem occurs in that a Kyton is not a particularly high-level encounter. At a certain point he loses crediblity as the Pyramid Head-like unstoppable monstrosity he's supposed to be. So the solution of course is obvious; make him much, much stronger. So my challenge to the Playground is: using the books available in my signature (and only those available in my signature -- no SRD), try to turn a Kyton into a CR 20 challenge (or if it goes higher, that's fine too) using a combination of templates, class levels, and NPC WBL gear. No HD Advancement. Don't ask me why, but I've never liked doing that.

A big chunk of this guy's ability to effect the PCs is presentation. Shooting big flashy lasers at people would not give the same effect as the slow, plodding, unkillable behemoth that can quickly become a hurricane of grabbing, piercing chains. Try to keep that in mind in your builds. I'll be working on my own while I observe what you come up with. Have fun!

(Yes, I'm aware that I could simply not bother to stat him out, but what's the fun in doing things in a practical manner?)

[Cespenar]

This looks like the one instance where a Spiked Chain Tripper would actually thematically make sense. Get the whole package, Martial Study (Thicket of Blades), etc. and mix it with the Intimidate build: Imperious Command, Never Outnumbered, etc. and you'll have a guy who'll make half of the group run away and if they get near him, he'll lock them down and tear them to pieces.

Sooo, Kyton/Fighter 12/Barbarian 2?

You could probably stick some Frenzied Berserker in there somewhere, but I'm not sure if it's a very good idea.

[The Random NPC]

I think he wants to go less for
DM: "Your character is scared, and runs away"
and more for
Player: "It's the Chained Man! Run away!"
Besides Martial Study and, I believe, both Intimidate feats you suggested aren't allowed.

[poignant123]

Originally I was just gonna suggest things like Mineral Warrior but I just thought of something.

Kytons can qualify for the Fiend of Possession PrC from Fiend Folio. Usually a Fiend possessing a weapon would not be able to do anything physically, such as move.

However, thanks to the Kyton's dancing chains ability, which takes control of the chain itself supernaturally, it can move and attack (as a standard action no less) while it is possessing a chain. Not only that, it can do this with several chains while it possess one.

So the Kyton can now slink along the ground as a set of chains without it being seen itself. If your players are really as paranoid of chains as you say they are, this will really freak them out. Not only that, it can literally become a whirlwind of chains since it IS the chains, or at least one of them. If you want it it can materialize outside the chains to combat the party physically.

[Thiyr]

Cue complaints on how major chunks of (edit)first response's idea don't fit into the limited number of books available D:

But, in hopes to derail that, i shall instead try to come up with an idea myself.

List of goals i'm gonna try to achieve

GOAL 1: The Kyton must always know where his opponents are. Nothing can hide them, nothing can save them.

GOAL 2: The Kyton must be hard to forsee coming, and must be harder to stop.

GOAL 3: The Kyton must be painful on its own. It should be able to make fleeing difficult if caught, and it should be able to actually harm the PCs later. Even if the harm is slow, it shouldn't have to worry about pesky things like "opponents defenses".

Obviously the easy answer for most of this is casting, but that's the cheater's way out. That said, a healthy dose of refluffing may be able to actually make that work without mixing in the bat guano. And my first idea is the idea that works with just about everything given said healthy dose of refluff.

The Warlock.

Sadly, the Kyton, while interesting, only has one cool thing about it, dancing chains. It has its downsides (eating a standard action each round as i'm reading it, though if it only needs to use that standard action once, all the better), but it otherwise is a useful addition. That means that my use of it is somewhat limited, but I'll be trying to keep things in-theme mostly.

Thankfully, the associated class levels rules are your friend here. The warlock is clearly not the assiciated class with the kyton, meaning that to bring it up to CR 20, you'd have 17 levels of warlock. We swap one out for mindbender and take mindsight to achieve goal 1. At that point, you want a few good invocations. Icy Chains (Chilling Tentacles) is a great one. Darkness is good for setting the mood, as well. Suddenly the players can't see, hear the rattling of chains, and know it's far, far too late. Walk unseen/flee the scene also give it the opportunity to somehow always be in the right corridor to chase them down, though that starts moving a bit far from the "unstoppable glacier of doom" vibe, but it could well lead into something that reminds me of the concept of the endermen from minecraft: Oh, there he is. A brisk walking pace should keep us safe. Oh, why is it in front of us now? Repelling blast makes for a very nice "oh, he's not that bad he just...knocked me across the room. Ow." mechanic as well, which would combo nicely with animated chains getting Attacks of Opportunity.

Sadly, the big tricks I'd love to pull out are from other books. Making darkness bigger and harder to remove would've been nice, as would the invocations from dragon magic (eldritch glaive serving as a wonderful close-range chain-smack when refluffed), and impenetrable barrier would've been a GREAT way to mess with the party as they try to flee

Even with this, though, it's a bit straightforward and lacks some mechanical flair. That's where taking feats starts to come in. Improved trip/grapple would be useful (I'd argue that the animated chains can grapple). The big problem at that point becomes goal 2, though, as this all would leave you quite squishy. It has the benefit, however, of being able to craft pretty much whatever it wants and use it. Again, your booklist prevents a few fun options (greater ironguard = no metal can touch me, for instance), but there's a few nice tricks, especially if you're willing to use custom item creation rules. Between entropic warding and a chain-y cloak of displacement, for instance, he'll be quite a pain to hit at a range. Can't think of much else, but i'm sure you can find stuff.

Ultimately, the goal I'd say isn't to be as -painful- as possible, it's to be as -debilitating- as possible. Pew Pew Lasers doesn't fit because it's direct. It's not scary. But if, say, chains coming from the floor to root you to the ground before you can see anything, or you see it standing in front of you and as it slowly menaces its way towards you, the chains on its body seem to fling themselves at you, knocking you around and preventing your escape, then things begin to be a lot more terrifying. In the end, he doesn't need to be -stronger-, per se, so much as he needs to be able to -affect- the party. a high cha coupled with, say, frightful blast can be heavyhanded but effective, esp in combo with other sources of fear effects. From there, though, just try to fluff things as much as possible as it not being something he -does-, but rather something that happens around him. He doesn't swing with/shoot a chain, they just come to life around him and lash out, or burst through the ground to strike (both could be eldritch blast refluffed, the latter could also be chilling tentacles). His presence causes the world to darken, not him trying to scare them.

But then again, I'm sure you know how to cause your players to soil themselves just fine already.

[Cespenar]

I think he wants to go less for
DM: "Your character is scared, and runs away"
and more for
Player: "It's the Chained Man! Run away!"
Besides Martial Study and, I believe, both Intimidate feats you suggested aren't allowed.

Tripper can work without Thicket of Blades. It can even work with Core alone, as shown with the Horizon Tripper build.

Also, the DM already has the effect you described, so an actual ability fitting that would make sense, I think.

But yes, I overlooked the available books, you are correct on that.

[Eldan]

Interestningly, the animated chains can probably count as allies. Now, the chains aren't really all that impressive anymore on high levels. Normally.

I suggest: give him bard levels, some template, and dragonfire inspiration.

The Chained Man opens his mouth, and a scream like the wail of the damned escapes, never stopping. Blood* begins to drop from the barbs chains that surround him in an endless trickle.

*acid

I also suggest giving him freedom of movement. Technically, he can teleport anyway, but fluff it as just walking through obstacles, slowly, and pushing them aside. If you can, temporary incorporeality may not be bad either.

[Xtomjames]

Well this character isn't the Kyton based version you're using it is much closer to the Pyramid head superbadass scare the living hell out of the players sort of monster. See spoiler below...

Draconic (creature) Blood Amniote Sorrowsworn Demon (Huge Undead Draconic Demon) Level 10 Ravager (CR 27 roughly)
Draconomicon page 150, Libris Mortis page 87, MM III page 36, Page 73 complete warrior.

HP (18d12+216)+10d10 532 ability scores: Str:31, Dex 22, Con -(original 32), Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 23
Initiative +13 Fort: +32 (+29 paralysis) Ref: +27 Will: +20 (+24 against mind affecting spells, +25 aginast sleep affects)
Speed 40ft/Fly 80ft (poor)/Climb 20ft
AC 30 (-2 size, +5 dex, +17 nat) Touch 15, Flatfooted 25
Base Attack Bonus +28/22/16/10 Grapple +41

Attack +2 glaive, +28 melee (10d8+30), Bite +20 melee (1d8+9 pluse 1 con dmg).
Slam +15 melee (2d6+10 plus blood call),
Full Attack: Slam (+15 melee 2d6+10 blood call) +2 glaive, +28/22/16/10 melee (10d8+30), Bite +20 melee (1d8+9 pluse 1 con dmg), or 2 claws +25 melee (1d6+16).
Space/reach 15ft./10ft (glaive 20-25 ft only).
Special Attacks: Aura of Loss, Spell Like abilities, Whispers of Loss, Blood call
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60ft, DR 10/-, DR 10/Cold Iron and good, Darkvision 90 ft, low Light Vision 60 ft, Fast healing 5, inescapable craving, ooze traits, self spawn, undead traits (except for ability loss to int, wis, cha), immune to elecricity, poison, mind reading, outsider traits, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, SR 25, Strong willed, Telepahty 100ft.
Skills: Bluff +30, Concentration 32, Diplomacy +15, Hide +32, Intimidate +34, Knowledge (all at +30): Arcana, Geography, The Planes, Religion. Listen +35, Move Silently +39, Profession +10, Ride +5 Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +32, Spot +34, Survival +35 (+37 on other planes and to avoid getting lost and hazards).
Feats: Ability focus (aura of Loss), Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Intiative, Improved Sunder, improved toughness, power Attack,Weapon focus (glaive) Monkey Grip, Power Critical,
Class Features: Pain touch 3/day, Aura of Fear 30 ft. 3/day , Cruelest Cut 3/day, Visage of Terror.

Enjoy...bwhahahahaha

[Drakevarg]

My current thought is Half-Farspawn Kyton Swarmshifter Warlock 11. Swarm form being a swarm of centipedes, fluffed as a mass of chains. While by RAW Kytons don't qualify for either template, this isn't so much an actual Kyton as it is the avatar of some Elder God. :smallamused:

I wanted to toss both the Dervish and the Ravager in there somewhere, but the only way to do that and get both capstone abilities would put this guy at CR 40 or something.

[Flickerdart]

Well this character isn't the Kyton based version you're using it is much closer to the Pyramid head superbadass scare the living hell out of the players sort of monster. See spoiler below...

Draconic (creature) Blood Amniote Sorrowsworn Demon (Huge Undead Draconic Demon) Level 10 Ravager (CR 27 roughly)
Draconomicon page 150, Libris Mortis page 87, MM III page 36, Page 73 complete warrior.

HP (18d12+216)+10d10 532 ability scores: Str:31, Dex 22, Con -(original 32), Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 23
Initiative +13 Fort: +32 (+29 paralysis) Ref: +27 Will: +20 (+24 against mind affecting spells, +25 aginast sleep affects)
Speed 40ft/Fly 80ft (poor)/Climb 20ft
AC 30 (-2 size, +5 dex, +17 nat) Touch 15, Flatfooted 25
Base Attack Bonus +28/22/16/10 Grapple +41

Attack +2 glaive, +28 melee (10d8+30), Bite +20 melee (1d8+9 pluse 1 con dmg).
Slam +15 melee (2d6+10 plus blood call),
Full Attack: Slam (+15 melee 2d6+10 blood call) +2 glaive, +28/22/16/10 melee (10d8+30), Bite +20 melee (1d8+9 pluse 1 con dmg), or 2 claws +25 melee (1d6+16).
Space/reach 15ft./10ft (glaive 20-25 ft only).
Special Attacks: Aura of Loss, Spell Like abilities, Whispers of Loss, Blood call
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60ft, DR 10/-, DR 10/Cold Iron and good, Darkvision 90 ft, low Light Vision 60 ft, Fast healing 5, inescapable craving, ooze traits, self spawn, undead traits (except for ability loss to int, wis, cha), immune to elecricity, poison, mind reading, outsider traits, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, SR 25, Strong willed, Telepahty 100ft.
Skills: Bluff +30, Concentration 32, Diplomacy +15, Hide +32, Intimidate +34, Knowledge (all at +30): Arcana, Geography, The Planes, Religion. Listen +35, Move Silently +39, Profession +10, Ride +5 Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +32, Spot +34, Survival +35 (+37 on other planes and to avoid getting lost and hazards).
Feats: Ability focus (aura of Loss), Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Intiative, Improved Sunder, improved toughness, power Attack,Weapon focus (glaive) Monkey Grip, Power Critical,
Class Features: Pain touch 3/day, Aura of Fear 30 ft. 3/day , Cruelest Cut 3/day, Visage of Terror.

Enjoy...bwhahahahaha
+28 attack on a CR27 monster? That's so pitiful that it's fallen off the RNG by that point. SR25 is a joke, attacks against it will never miss because its AC is worse than the attack bonus of anything fighting it...what about this monster is "superbadass"?

[Drakevarg]

+28 attack on a CR27 monster? That's so pitiful that it's fallen off the RNG by that point. SR25 is a joke, attacks against it will never miss because its AC is worse than the attack bonus of anything fighting it...what about this monster is "superbadass"?

I'm actually more curious on how it's a Blood Amniote and a Sorrowsworn Demon at the same time...

[Andorax]

Ok...so here's the general idea:

Spellwarped Earth-Element Kyton Dread Necromancer 1, Talon of Tiamat 8, Dread Witch 4

Associated/Nonassociated class levels: Arguably, DN, Talon and Dread Witch are nonassociated.

As such, I know you're not a big fan of HD-advancement, but particularly with the Spellwarped SR and the fact that better =/= bigger for Kytons, I'd recommend:

Spellwarped Kyton (Advanced to 16 HD) DN 1/Talon of Tiamat 8/Dread Witch 4
16 HD = CR 10
13 NonAssociated = +6 CR.
Spellwarped +2 = CR 18
Earth-Element +2 = CR 20

Overall Stats (still need to add 5 points from HD, possibly elite array as well)

Str 21, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12

Total HD = 29 (for a SR of 40 and bonuses when something fails to pierce)
Talon of Tiamat: Frightful Presence (30'/Cha point, everyone with 28 or less HD) Will DC 20+Cha or Shaken.
2/day add a "shaken" rider to any spell you cast with a visible effect.

Overall CL of 8 (Dread Necro list).

Feats: Dragonthrall (needed for Talon of Tiamat), Kiai Shout/Greater Kiai Shout, everything else into chain-tripping smackdown (unless more intimidation/fear feats can be found to support that approach).

Gear: Focus on boosting Charisma, both for spellcasting and for other class-based fear effects. Additional should go into standard anti-PC defenses and a nasty weapon.

Strategy: Combine the Kiai/Greater Kiai Shout with the Dread Witch's piercing of fear immunity, and you can scatter the PCs in a big hurry. Other intimidation tricks can be brought into the build as well, allowing you to keep the PCs afraid. Trip one of them with an AoO on the way out of range, and proceed to lay into that one mercilessly with your attacks while they cower in terror, then go on the hunt for the rest.

Earth Glide/Tremorsense allows for stalking PCs from underground. LoE is still needed, one would presume, for dancing chains...but if one end of said chain were buried 1' underground, and he could thereby touch one end of said chain without emerging from the ground? Terror ensues.

Recall that Kytons have regeneration that's vulnerable to Silver/Good weapons and Good spells. Consider Improved Disarm, earth glide to grab the offending weapon and drag it down/bury it. How many (good) spells are SR: No?

Another gear option...Chain (rope) of Entanglement. Figure out a fair up-price cost to compensate for higher strength checks required and hit points.

Required rule fudging: Allow Spellwarped to apply to an Outsider, allow Dread Witch's fear immunity piercing to apply to effects instead of just spells. Some interpretation of whether ignoring fear immunity also includes ignoring mind affecting immunity (not uncommon at 20th level).

It's not a full writeup, but it gives you some concepts to play with...hopefully, you like the idea.