Detect Thoughts and Saving Throws

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I'm working on writing up a campaign in which the villain is a rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm) who is hiding from the players in plain sight via change shape (he'll be a fairly major NPC they meet pretty early in the campaign). A rakshasa has the ability to use detect thoughts continuously with a will save to negate. Would I be out of line making this save for each player secretly and not telling them it had happened? In-character, would a character entering the range of a detect thoughts spell have any way of noticing that somebody was trying to read their minds?

Thanks for the help.

Mods: I'm still new here so if this is in the wrong place, I'm sorry and feel free to move it.

Edited for spelling.

[supermonkeyjoe]

The part on saves in the spells section states that:


Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

So your disguised Rakshasa needs to think of a very good reason why the PCs occasionally get strange feelings when he looks at them.

Edit: additionally if someone makes a DC 22 spellcraft check they can identify the spell being used against them.

[Deadtissue]

You are certainly able to make secret saves for the players. You will often need to make checks for things the characters are unaware of like traps or hidden foes. Its quite common as a DM to have to do this but I try to never do it in save or die situations. This is not one of those anyway...I hope.

I know of nothing in the rules that say divination spells are detectable by the targets except those that produce a scrying sensor or with a detect magic, arcane sight etc.

Do the players know whether they made the save or not. I think that would be up to you. Given who is using it I would say no. The Rakshasa will either be able to read the surface thoughts or not depending on the save.

If you wanted to tip the players off you could say the Rakshasa/NPC seems distracted while they are talking to him (the spell requires concetration), or those who failed their save perhaps get a headache?


Hope that helps and I am sure somebody will chime in if there are rules or errata someplace I have not looked that cover this.

Just my 2 cents.

[Deadtissue]

There you go rules are under saving throws. Detect thoughts is an area spell so perhaps those who save get a headache.


Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.


What do those who fail the save detect a spell with no physical effects such as detect thoughts feel/detect it as?

[2xMachina]

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Regarding the rules citation: True, but the Detect Thoughts spell doesn't list a target, just an affected area (though it does use the phrase "a target's will save prevents you from reading its thoughts". Hmmm.)

I might have the NPC be try to be sneaky about it, claiming he noticed the sensation and asking the PCs if they can help figure out what it was, or just have him shapechange once they leave and tail the PCs when they so they don't connect the "hostile force or tingle" to the NPC.

For any player who fails a save, I'm just going to treat their out-of-character table talk and any plans they had in-character that directly relate to the NPC as being known to the NPC. Thus if the players fail the save and they are talking about trying to bluff or intimidate something out of the NPC, he will know this plan and be able to change his conversational tactics accordingly or at least get some fairly decent bonus on his opposed check. Also, it would supply him with a bonus on his own bluff and disguise checks against the PCs as per the SRD entry.

Edited for spelling again.

[Fouredged Sword]

You just need to give them a reason to think the spell they just resisted is something else. Have them also save VS another spell that is mostly harmless, but also would set off the will save alarm. If they pass ether save tell them they feel the tingle and when they ask have the NPC tell them about the first spell.

Also consider a level or three in evangelisist. An evil one does a number on saves just by talking for three rounds. Now they are less likely to pass the willsave, and thus less likely to notice the mind reading. Mix with ability focus and other DC boosting powers (like the NPC also being a LE paladin) and it soon becomes near imposible to make that save.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

You just need to give them a reason to think the spell they just resisted is something else. Have them also save VS another spell that is mostly harmless, but also would set off the will save alarm. If they pass ether save tell them they feel the tingle and when they ask have the NPC tell them about the first spell.Any suggestions on a spell I could use here? The NPC is an administrator in a merchants' guild who doesn't display any magical powers as far as the PCs can see (though he'll probably have a few magic items on hand, though.)

Also consider a level or three in evangelisist. An evil one does a number on saves just by talking for three rounds. Now they are less likely to pass the willsave, and thus less likely to notice the mind reading. Mix with ability focus and other DC boosting powers (like the NPC also being a LE paladin) and it soon becomes near imposible to make that save.Hmmm. Where could I find this evangelist class? I was considering producing a similar effect by saying that the NPC in question has some magic item that slightly lowers the will saves (-2 or -3) of everyone in 10 feet. (I don't know if there's any real rules basis for this, but I don't mind the occasional homebrewed magic item.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Complete Divine - it is a PRC that is great for secretly evil NPC's. Diplomacy, bluff, and save draining words.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Sounds perfect. Thanks for the tip.

[Deadtissue]

Perhaps the area the NPC Merchant works is magical. He could inform them that the owner or guildmaster has had the room enchanted to detect something lies, magic, gold, evil or something appropriate they guild would not want to occur. An area where no weapons are permitted with a detect metal etc or it near a vault so detect gold to prevent theft.
That way he can detect thoughts and just blame it on the paranoia of the Merchants guild.