Cleric PrC

[NOhara24]

Hello Playground,

I'm looking for a Prestige Class for my girlfriend's cleric. She and I both ruled out RSoP, namely because she didn't take the sun domain, and her CHA score is low. So, what I'm asking for since her WIS score is good, is a class that somehow buffs divine spell casting. I don't want to do any sort of level dip, namely because she's doing all her own paperwork and I'd like to keep that at a minimum.

tl;dr

What's a good class to take for a cleric who wants to buff their spellcasting?

[Acanous]

let's see...

True Necromancer. Requires 3 levels of Wizard to qualify for, but you'll have the biggest undead army ever.

Mystic Theurge. Again, requires some wizard levels, but arcane spellcasting is nice if more spells is your thing.

Legacy Champion. You get all that spellcasting, and a free legacy weapon, to boot!

If you're OK with taking a few vows, there's a PrC in Exalted Deeds for clerics, but given that one of the vows is Peace it's of limited use.

[Urpriest]

let's see...

True Necromancer. Requires 3 levels of Wizard to qualify for, but you'll have the biggest undead army ever.

Mystic Theurge. Again, requires some wizard levels, but arcane spellcasting is nice if more spells is your thing.

Legacy Champion. You get all that spellcasting, and a free legacy weapon, to boot!

If you're OK with taking a few vows, there's a PrC in Exalted Deeds for clerics, but given that one of the vows is Peace it's of limited use.

It's not really for clerics, given that it has its own list. And don't do the theurges, losing spell levels can really gimp a character.

Church Inquisitor gives a number of nice benefits, and is easy to qualify for. Contemplative is much-loved for the spells it grants, and if you really like domains then Sovereign Speaker (Faiths of Eberron) gets you nine in as many levels. Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is fun for a summoner, while Master of Shrouds (Libris Mortis) gives you shadows to play with at low levels, which is handy. Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine Web Enhancement, and some FR book) is brokenly good and quite caster-focused, but does require losing a level to Wizard.

[mootoall]

*suggestion of True Necromancer and Mystic Theurge* No. Biiiiiig traps there. It makes you both a worse wizard and a worse cleric, the TN much worse than the MT. No, good Cleric PrCs will give up *at most* 1 level of cleric casting. I recommend Contemplative for that extra domain (pick up Sun for RSoP?) and/or Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). Or, if she's a Cleric of a more martial bent, Ruby Knight Windicator is known as such for a reason.

[Jude_H]

True Necromancer...Mystic Theurge...Legacy Champion.
I don't want to be a **** about it, but those are all very bad, especially for what the OP wants. They all lose Cleric casting for abilities that fail to improve it.

Typically, anything which doesn't lose caster levels is okay.

Dweomerkeeper from the CDiv web enhancement is well-known for not only doing what the OP wants, but at being being too good at it (but that's more of a problem when using non-class level workarounds for the arcane prerequisite).

CDiv has a few useful ones, beside the Radiant Servant: Church Inquisitor is available very early (so it fits into most builds) and provides either the Inquisition domain, which is really neat for Divine Defiance-users, or Knowledge Devotion, which can be useful for anyone who ever needs an attack roll; Contemplative is extra domains, which is almost certainly worth your while; Divine Oracle has some nice benefits, including always-active Foresight and an extra domain (okay on its own; can always be swapped out for Knowledge Devotion or another domain via CChamp's Domain Substitution spell); Sacred Exorcist is okay, but most of its abilities are pretty situational unless you're in an especially possession-heavy setting (its biggest benefit is Turn Undead, which in higher-op, you might stack with other TU variants like Lightbringer for divine feat abuse).

Paragnostic Disciple from CChampion provides small bonuses for quite a few things - nothing particularly powerful, but it's class features where there would otherwise be none. Loremaster from the DMG provides similar minor bonuses, and notably has UMD as a class skill.

Summoning classes tend to be useful - the Thaumaturge in the DMG is very good: it extends summons, boosts Planar Ally, adds a cohort and tosses a free feat (Augment Summoning, which you'd probably have, but you can swap the first iteration of the feat out via PHB2's retraining) for very little investment. Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel is also powerful, but its lost caster level is a cost worth considering. The Master of Shrouds from Libris Mortis follows similar guidelines (lost caster level, powerful abilities), but with a more evil bent.

...Those are the big ones I can think of. I'm pretty sure Faiths and Pantheons is full of full-casting Cleric PrCs, but I can't remember any that particularly stood out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Oracle in Complete Divine is pretty good. Pay a visit to the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get its feat prerequisite without having to spend a feat on it. (Or you could just pay 2,000 gp and say it already happened.)

Contemplative in Complete Divine is pretty easy for finishing off a build to level 20.

Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion is useful for any caster, depending on which abilities you pick.

Thaumaturgist in the DMG is good, especially if you can get a Ghaele Eladrin as your planar cohort.

[Acanous]

oh come on, I had the first reply. I was scouring my mind for the things that wouldn't otherwise be mentioned.

True Necromancer does have it's uses, though. Admittedly it's a very specific use, but it IS very good at it.

[Urpriest]

oh come on, I had the first reply. I was scouring my mind for the things that wouldn't otherwise be mentioned.

True Necromancer does have it's uses, though. Admittedly it's a very specific use, but it IS very good at it.

And what is that use exactly? I don't see it getting a higher control pool than a Dread Necro, so your stated use isn't one.

[Kenneth]

Divine Oracle in Complete Divine is pretty good. Pay a visit to the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get its feat prerequisite without having to spend a feat on it. (Or you could just pay 2,000 gp and say it already happened.)

Contemplative in Complete Divine is pretty easy for finishing off a build to level 20.

Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion is useful for any caster, depending on which abilities you pick.

Thaumaturgist in the DMG is good, especially if you can get a Ghaele Eladrin as your planar cohort.


I whole heartedly second Divine Oracle.

[Gavinfoxx]

The True Necromancer DOESN'T have any uses though. It is really a bad bad class.

I put my big long quote for why under the spoiler




You are not going to play a True Necromancer!
A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer.

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

[ranagrande]

Good full-casting Cleric PrCs:

Sentinel of Bharrai from the Book of Exalted Deeds

Holt Warden or Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion

Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Radiant Servant, Sacred Exorcist, or Stormlord from Complete Divine

Dracolyte from the Draconomicon

Loremaster or Thaumaturgist from the Dungeon Master's Guide

Rimefire Witch or Stormsinger from Frostburn

Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle

Keeper of the Cerulean Sign from Lords of Madness

Singer of Concordance from Races of the Dragon

Divine Prankster, Earth Dreamer, or Stonespeaker Guardian from Races of Stone

Ruathar and Skypledged from Races of the Wild

This is just a small list. There are many more.

[Hazzardevil]

Take my advice with a pinch of salt, but my idea of a good cleric prestige class is basically getting other classes high-level abilities in 1 or 2 level dips, or getting more domains.

I disagree with Loremaster or Thaumaturgist being good prestige classes, I'd say they are passable, but not good in the grand scheme of things.

[ranagrande]

Take my advice with a pinch of salt, but my idea of a good cleric prestige class is basically getting other classes high-level abilities in 1 or 2 level dips, or getting more domains.

I disagree with Loremaster or Thaumaturgist being good prestige classes, I'd say they are passable, but not good in the grand scheme of things.
It just depends on what you're going for. If you want to play a summoner, Thaumaturgist is great.

I like a Loremaster dip to get full UMD. It's also a nice followup to Divine Oracle, since the prereqs overlap.

[Addi]

Therer are some nice Handbooks with proper discussions:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

I'm sure the playground has its own version of this - somewhere.

Edit: If she's doing the paperwork, like you said, you should probably show her these handbooks or make her part of the playground.

[Jude_H]

I disagree with Loremaster or Thaumaturgist being good prestige classes, I'd say they are passable, but not good in the grand scheme of things.
Really? As well as its minor abilities, Thaumaturgist gets contingent summons and a cohort - basically two free rounds each fight. That is very powerful.

Loremaster is less powerful, but it does more for a cleric's casting than cleric levels or most cleric PrCs (Stormlord, Hellbreaker Soul Guard, Bone Knight, etc.).

[NOhara24]

Thanks for the replies, all. I showed her the Sovereign Speaker class and show showed her true colors and came out as a domain collector :smallwink: So that's probably what she'll end up doing.

[noparlpf]

That's a nifty class, but it doesn't advance casting at 1st level and requires a weird religion.

I don't want to post a new thread since this is already up, and I hope I'm not out of place to ask here, but does anybody have a PrC suggestion for a healing-focused character that both advances casting at 1st level and grants the Sun domain (or a domain of choice) as a bonus domain?

[Addi]

I'd recommend the PrC, the original poster excluded.
Radiant Servant of Pelor(CD) - maybe that there are more options that suit your needs better, but this one's a good choice.
You need the Sun Domain to qualify, but get a bonus domain at 5th(?) level.
I played one once and was satisfied with his healing capabilities, before I noticed that healing in combat is not worth your actions.

Just play a healer if you have fun with it. Otherwise play what you want and buy wands of lesser vigor.

Edit: I love Severeign Speaker, but its difficult to adapt it to other settings. Maybe you pick the pantheon of a race or a special alignment as your substitute for the Sovereign Host.

[noparlpf]

I'd recommend the PrC, the original poster excluded.
Radiant Servant of Pelor(CD) - maybe that there are more options that suit your needs better, but this one's a good choice.
You need the Sun Domain to qualify, but get a bonus domain at 5th(?) level.
I played one once and was satisfied with his healing capabilities, before I noticed that healing in combat is not worth your actions.

Just play a healer if you have fun with it. Otherwise play what you want and buy wands of lesser vigor.

See, the point was to get from the Healer class up to the Radiant Servant PrC. I should have just said initially. (I tested a prototype build yesterday during a one-shot, and when the two Rogues turned on the party I survived just because I could heal myself like you wouldn't believe.)
Of course, I keep not being able to bring myself to play an evil character with these guys. I ought to go back to playing Druids or something, but I got bored with them after I played several. Right now I'm a fan of simple non-ToB melee, but I like having a ridiculous healbot around for when the party needs one.

[mootoall]

Hmm, what are the Contemplative prereqs? That's one of the few classes that I know grant extra domains. Refluff/rework Rainbow Servant to give the Sun domain instead of Air, Good and Law? Sovereign Speaker to gain the Sun domain? Fake it with Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment and a level of Wizard with Arcane Disciple?

[Addi]

There are several other "Sun" Prcs, but I don't know if one of them can help you right now.
And the stuff in Complete divine is not suitable?
Some stuff with bonus domains:
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Justice Hammer of Moradin
Rainbow Servant
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Warpriest

I'm sure a lot more are missing.

You can swap the granted domains with substitute domain to "sun".

Edit: Contemplativ can be entered at Level 11 I think. Before you take a Level of Wizard - just take Cleric ;)

[noparlpf]

I'm considering Contemplative, but it can't be taken until 11th level and that messes up my idea a little.

How do you suggest I change the granted domains? Refluffing to compensate for changed mechanics probably isn't good enough. I'd rather make everything as legit as possible.

[Addi]

There is a spell that's called "Substitute domain" in Complete Champion(?) that lets you swap one of your domains for another your deity offers.

You may mant to read through the Guide to Sovereign Speakers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3927.0). There are listed a lot more things concerning domains.

Edit: "Substitute Domain" is just a temporary solution because you have to cast it again after a few days. Oh - and your DM might find it stupid to change your domain with a spell.

[noparlpf]

There is a spell that's called "Substitute domain" in Complete Champion(?) that lets you swap one of your domains for another your deity offers.

You may want to read through the Guide to Sovereign Speakers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3927.0). There are listed a lot more things concerning domains.

Edit: "Substitute Domain" is just a temporary solution because you have to cast it again after a few days.

Hmm. I don't know if that's quite what I want, if it's only temporary.
I also can't use Sovereign Speaker because it doesn't fit with Radiant Servant, which requires you to worship a specific deity.

[Addi]

You should not take Sovereign Speaker but take a look at this handbook.
There's really useful stuff about domains in there. I bet you find what you need.

Substitute domain technically works. Your deity offers the domain and you take it for a week.
There we are in the discussion of Prerequesites to PrCs. Some people think that you lose all benefits of the PrC if you don't fit the requirements (after taking 10levels of it) anymore and others see them as requirements to ENTER the class. It's your choice.(More likely your DMs choice)

Edit: If it's not a matter of optimization, take one level (Cloistered) Cleric.

[noparlpf]

The prototype I used yesterday has the one-level dip into Cleric, but I really don't like losing a level like that.

Yeah...like the time I Reincarnated the Halfling Outrider and she came back as a half-orc...and then we had no idea what to do. I mean, she definitely couldn't ride her riding dog. I don't want to deal with that argument anymore though so it's better to just have a permanent Sun domain.

[Jack_Simth]

Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine Web Enhancement, and some FR book) is brokenly good and quite caster-focused, but does require losing a level to Wizard.There's a way around the level loss, if you're building from scratch and all sources are open: Magical Training, Player's Guide to Faerun, I think. Just a couple of cantrips, but Dweomerkeeper doesn't require any specific spell level, so it works.

[ranagrande]

Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft might be a good choice.

It does lose out on casting at level 1, but at level 3 a Knight of the Raven gets the Sun domain and the ability to turn undead.

[Addi]

Knight of the Raven is a nice one. The Raven "familiar" lets you transfer your touch spells to others IIRC. (Ranged Healing)

Dweomerkeeper is centereed on Magic-Gods. It's a powerful solution but may not be what you're looking for. Also check the powerlevel of the rest of your Party when doing this.