D&D 3.5 One Shot, One Kill.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, we've all heard of Charger and Uber Charger builds, We've all heard of massive damage form Tricked out Bardic Music, Precision Damage, Iaijutsu Focus, and I'm sure everyone's familiar with High end damage out put form Martial Maneuvers and Arcane Channeling ability's.

What i'm looking for for this thread is a build that can make one shot, one kill, work. I Prefer it to come online at the earliest possible level, and stay capable of doing this task through the whole game. I'd also like it too be able to move at least once during the round so it can close with the target too attack it. Would also prefer Oriental Adventures Compatible, so if your gonna use something form another setting, please notate an alternative path.

The DM I would likely play this under does not like Tome of Battle. I do like Tome of Battle. So I would like to see options for this build that both use and don't use Tome of Battle in the build.

It would also be nice If I could see varied options for weapons, including a Katana option. Not required, but nice.

Let's try to assume vanilla human, no templates. Why? Same reason I need to see both Tome of Battle and None Tome of battle options.

And lastly, I'd greatly prefer this be something I can reliably spend most or the whole adventuring day doing. No one shot a day things please.

Thank you, I know this is a tall order, but if anyone can make this come together, I know the Playground can.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you are looking for a RANGED way of doing this, yes?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human, Fighter 2/ Paladin 5, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP: Ritiik (Frostburn), Power Attack, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Leap Attack; Charging Smite ACF (PH2). +1 Valorous Ritiik (item familiar), Armbands of Might (MIC), 1st level Pearls of Power; prepare Rhino's Rush in your Paladin spell slot. Requires minimum Str 13, Int 13, and Wis 12; prioritize Str and Cha. Possibly trade Fighter for OA Samurai and lose Item Familiar (although Paladin is not permissible in OA).

Cast Rhino's Rush (swift), charge in with Power Attack and Leap Attack, use Charging Smite. Your Ritiik hits, dealing x3 damage (Valorous, Rhino's Rush), the target must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be hooked by the weapon. Successfully hooking an opponent gives you a free Trip check, if successful you then get a free attack vs their prone AC (normal damage plus Leap Attack, no smite, no multipliers). You then yank out the weapon, automatically dealing damage equal to the initial hit (the damage that the reflex save DC was based on). Let's throw a few numbers around:

Str 16, Cha 16, Power Attack for -2 to hit. Total attack bonus +14 (+7 BAB, +2 charging, +3 Str, +3 Cha, +1 Enhancement, -2 Power Attack). Charging Smite damage is +15 (+5 smite, +10 charging smite). Power Attack damage is +12 (+4 for -2 two-handed, +2 armbands, increased by 100% for Leap Attack). Other damage factors are 1d8+1 for the +1 weapon, and +4 for Str 16 two-handed. Total damage on the initial hit is 1d8+32, x3 for 3d8+96, average 109.5 damage.

That's a Reflex save DC of over 110, which nothing can make on anything but a natural 20, so presume you get a trip attempt. Trip bonus is +9 (+3 Str, +4 Improved Trip, +2 Armbands), and you get an attack against their prone AC at an attack bonus of +11 (same as above but no Cha bonus because it's not a Smite). Damage is 1d8+17.

You then rip out the Ritiik, dealing automatic damage equal to the initial hit, which was the 3d8+96. Note that it's not rolled again, it's just equal to whatever that damage total was, so if it was a critical hit then it's just as much damage this time.

That's an average of 240 damage on one charge, and you can do that as many times as you have Pearls of Power and Smites for.

If you've run out of Smites and Rhino's Rushes, you can still charge with +11 to hit, for 2d8+34, trip at +11 for 1d8+17, and rip the weapon out dealing again whatever the initial 2d8+34 rolled. That's an average of 107.5 damage for zero resources spent. You should be able to get the +1 Valorous Ritiik and Armbands of Might by 6th level when you take Leap Attack, provided you can get the weapon at a discount such as via Item Familiar or buying loot from the party pool at half value and sacrificing its full value into a daisho.

[Flickerdart]

The single strike requirement can be complicated...the easiest way would be to go Factotum and stack SA like a champ (1/encounter), or use a bunch of CL boosters and Hunter's Eye for the same (plenty of 2nd level slots to go around). Weapon-indiscriminate, too, and an Unseen Seer dip can get you Hunter's Eye easily without taking away from other classes.

[Curmudgeon]

The single strike requirement can be complicated...the easiest way would be to go Factotum and stack SA like a champ (1/encounter)
There's no stacking language in the Factotum's Cunning Strike, so all instances of this overlap rather than stack. You'll have a really high chance of adding +6 to your damage, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Eh, you can argue that, but I prefer the interpretation that doesn't make the ability super useless.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh, you can argue that, but I prefer the interpretation that doesn't make the ability super useless.
What's useless about +1d6 damage whenever the opportunity arises? Most characters have to pay +1 weapon enhancement cost for that.

[TurtleKing]

Ok might have something for you. First thing is find out if Pathfinder is allowed. Why? Vital Strike line and the Devastating Strike sub line. Vital Strike has if you can make two attacks you can instead make one attack dealing double thw damage dice. Example is a Fighter 6 using a Longsword could either swing twice dealing 1d8+Str or swing once dealing 2d8+Str. This a standard action to use so can still move dealing comparable damage to someone having to use a Full Round attack. Vital Strike doesn't get multiplied on a critical, but Devastating Strike adds +2 damage per extra attack lumped in by Vital Strike upto +6 that does get multiplied on a crit. Take it even further with Improved Devastating Strike that makes upto +6 to the attack roll to confirm a critical hit . This is equal to Devastating Strike bonus to damage.

Now since Vital Strike lets you stay mobile a certain precision class says hi. The Scout has you running circles around your target dealing extra damage and a bonus to AC. I am not sure or want to present what it can do at certain levels just going to show what is capable at level 20. Take a level 20 Scout with the Vital Strike and Devastating Strike line which totals to 5 feats. The damage potential if say using a Composite +4 Longbow would look like 4d8+5d6+4+6+?=at least 19-72 damage. On a crit that would be 4d8+15d6+12+18+?=at least 49-152. I multiplied the Skirmish damage since I didn't see it saying it can't. This soonest this becomes available depends on when you get the feats. While you are pulling stuff from PF might as well grab Deadly Aim. It is the Power Attack for ranged. Do note that this is in fact not weapon dependent.

The only other way I can see doing this is Hulking Hurler. I doubt many can survive a planet being thrown at them.:smallwink:

[Zaq]

You want one attack roll to drop an opponent? The easy solution is poison. Get as many different poisons (or as many doses of the same poison) on a weapon as possible and fire it at an enemy. They'll probably fail at least one of the saves. The key to getting a lot of different poisons at once (after all, you can't just smear two doses of BLE on your arrow at once, at least not out of the box) is the Poison Spell feat. Between a Spell Storing weapon (with Poison Spell), the Smiting Spell feat (with Poison Spell), and a normal dose of poison, that's three doses of poison and two spells tacked onto a single arrow. (Don't miss, by the way.) In melee, you can add even more to this (use a spikard, from Magic of Eberron, to get an extra place to put poison, and be a Duskblade, so you can channel a Poison Spell'd spell into it), but I assume you wanted to be ranged.

[sonofzeal]

What's useless about +1d6 damage whenever the opportunity arises? Most characters have to pay +1 weapon enhancement cost for that.
Because "1 IP = +1d6" sneak is strictly inferior to "1 IP = +int damage" for the vast majority of Factota. The latter does more damage for most Factota, doesn't have all the restrictions SA does, is available at a lower level, and can't be blocked by a whole host of things ranging from "Amorphous" to "Undead Traits" to "Fortification" to "Uncanny Dodge". Simply put, spending an IP on a single d6 of SA is virtually never going to be worth it. It is only possibly justified if you're already using IP for int-to-damage and the extra d6 makes the difference between dropping an enemy or not, but a single d6 is too small a range to give an appreciable difference most of the time. On the other hand, if you have four IP and absolutely must kill the enemy this turn, being able to spend one on +int and the other three for +3d6 SA could be a game changer. It's a niche use sure, and you're hosed if it misses, but it's exactly the sort of thing a Factotum should be able to do. It's fair and balanced to allow stacking, and the whole ability is seriously nerf if it isn't. RAW, yeah, whatever, but I'd allow it without question.

[Xtomjames]

There are a couple of ways I could see you being able to do this.

Ranger 1 (focus on bows/long range rather than TWF) Rogue 1 Arcane Swordsage 5 (possibly as early as 2nd level Swordsage) Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Adaptive Style, extra readied maneuver (x2)
(Take two flaws to get the extra feats if need be...)

Maneuvers: Trade your martial maneuvers for these spells. True Strike, Critical Strike, Sniper's Shot, Find the Gap, Sniper's Eye, Exacting Shot, Guided Shot, invisibility, Blindsight (3rd level spell 1 hour/level), Arrowsplit.

If you take 5 levels of artificer after this you can focus on spell infusions that go further. Slaying Arrow is good example of this.

True Strike is an immediate action but applies to your next shot or melee attack, Critical strike is a swift action as is sniper's shot, find the gap and exacting shot. Sniper's Eye and Guided shot are immediate actions that apply again to your next attack, invisibility works as an immediate action as does Blindsight, arrowsplit is a swift action.


To do one shot kills you can then do the following. Immediate action True Strike and Critical Strike (presume you're way outside of range for most foes and are sniping so you can take your time with this) use Sniper's shot on top of the last two and guided shot and then finally apply Find the Gap. On your next shot you'll automatically gain +20 and a critical hit to confirm, Critical strike does +1d6 damage on top of te sneak attack damage from being a rogue, you double the threat range to confirm your critical, and gain a +4 to confirm. Sniper's Shot removes the range limit for your next ranged sneak attack, Find the Gap allows you to ignore on your next attack armor and natural armor of your opponent (and because it's a sneak attack they're flat-footed so they're total AC is a 10, easily confirmed against for Critical hits.) Sniper's eye grants a +10 to spot and darkvision out to 60 ft for sneak attacking.

Guided shot allows you to ignore distance penalties for one round, and arrowsplit changes your MW arrow into 1d4+1/level arrows/missiles that gain all the bonuses from the other maneuvers used. Finally Exacting Shot lasts for one minute and confirms all criticals against your favored enemy.


Weapon: You'll want a masterwork greatbow composite. I suggest one with the Maiming ability and distance ability. This is a +3 longbow, it will have a range of 260 feet and will deal an extra 2d6 points of damage on top of the sneak attack damage provided via spells per strike.

With rapid shot you can deal two straight hits with this method, however using splitarrow will give you an automatic hit with a max of 11 missiles each dealing the base damage +4d6 damage * the confirmed critical or maximized if if critical isn't confirmed.

That's 34 damage per arrow/missile or in one attack total damage being 374 damage. (This excluding str or dex bonus to damage).

If you have enough money also give the bow Exit Wound and Blood Seeking, and get Explosive Arrows. Exit Wound does an extra 1d6 points of damage and will continue on past the first target damaging another target beyond. Blood Seeking allows you to shoot enemies even with full cover (with 20% miss chance) so long as you know they are there. You can shoot around corners with this weapon. Explosive arrows deal an extra 2d4 damage to the enemy and any enemies within 5 ft of the original target.

Other items: Depending on how flexible your GM is, sniper's goggles could be useful to your character. With the extra readied maneuvers you can have nearly all of your current maneuvers (as listed above) readied and available to your character. (9 out of the 10).

[Legendairy]

There are a couple of ways I could see you being able to do this.

Ranger 1 (focus on bows/long range rather than TWF) Rogue 1 Arcane Swordsage 5 (possibly as early as 2nd level Swordsage) Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Adaptive Style, extra readied maneuver (x2)
(Take two flaws to get the extra feats if need be...)

Maneuvers: Trade your martial maneuvers for these spells. True Strike, Critical Strike, Sniper's Shot, Find the Gap, Sniper's Eye, Exacting Shot, Guided Shot, invisibility, Blindsight (3rd level spell 1 hour/level), Arrowsplit.

If you take 5 levels of artificer after this you can focus on spell infusions that go further. Slaying Arrow is good example of this.

True Strike is an immediate action but applies to your next shot or melee attack, Critical strike is a swift action as is sniper's shot, find the gap and exacting shot. Sniper's Eye and Guided shot are immediate actions that apply again to your next attack, invisibility works as an immediate action as does Blindsight, arrowsplit is a swift action.


To do one shot kills you can then do the following. Immediate action True Strike and Critical Strike (presume you're way outside of range for most foes and are sniping so you can take your time with this) use Sniper's shot on top of the last two and guided shot and then finally apply Find the Gap. On your next shot you'll automatically gain +20 and a critical hit to confirm, Critical strike does +1d6 damage on top of te sneak attack damage from being a rogue, you double the threat range to confirm your critical, and gain a +4 to confirm. Sniper's Shot removes the range limit for your next ranged sneak attack, Find the Gap allows you to ignore on your next attack armor and natural armor of your opponent (and because it's a sneak attack they're flat-footed so they're total AC is a 10, easily confirmed against for Critical hits.) Sniper's eye grants a +10 to spot and darkvision out to 60 ft for sneak attacking.

Guided shot allows you to ignore distance penalties for one round, and arrowsplit changes your MW arrow into 1d4+1/level arrows/missiles that gain all the bonuses from the other maneuvers used. Finally Exacting Shot lasts for one minute and confirms all criticals against your favored enemy.


Weapon: You'll want a masterwork greatbow composite. I suggest one with the Maiming ability and distance ability. This is a +3 longbow, it will have a range of 260 feet and will deal an extra 2d6 points of damage on top of the sneak attack damage provided via spells per strike.

With rapid shot you can deal two straight hits with this method, however using splitarrow will give you an automatic hit with a max of 11 missiles each dealing the base damage +4d6 damage * the confirmed critical or maximized if if critical isn't confirmed.

That's 34 damage per arrow/missile or in one attack total damage being 374 damage. (This excluding str or dex bonus to damage).

If you have enough money also give the bow Exit Wound and Blood Seeking, and get Explosive Arrows. Exit Wound does an extra 1d6 points of damage and will continue on past the first target damaging another target beyond. Blood Seeking allows you to shoot enemies even with full cover (with 20% miss chance) so long as you know they are there. You can shoot around corners with this weapon. Explosive arrows deal an extra 2d4 damage to the enemy and any enemies within 5 ft of the original target.

Other items: Depending on how flexible your GM is, sniper's goggles could be useful to your character. With the extra readied maneuvers you can have nearly all of your current maneuvers (as listed above) readied and available to your character. (9 out of the 10).

I had an archer like this, just hope you don't fight things with any DR

[Xtomjames]

Why would DR even matter? Most creatures don't have DR past 20 let alone 10. 10 points removed from 300+ damage really isn't much of a negative to worry about.

[2xMachina]

Is it 1 hit or many? DR applies separately to different hits unfortunately.

[candycorn]

Why would DR even matter? Most creatures don't have DR past 20 let alone 10. 10 points removed from 300+ damage really isn't much of a negative to worry about.

11 missiles. 110 damage removed, assuming DR 10. 165, from DR 15. 220, from DR 20.

[Curmudgeon]

Because "1 IP = +1d6" sneak is strictly inferior to "1 IP = +int damage" for the vast majority of Factota. The latter does more damage for most Factota ...
If Cunning Insight is a better choice for you, obviously you can pick that instead. Or, since Cunning Insight doesn't stack with itself, you can also add Cunning Strike for even more damage at the cost of a second IP. Nobody's twisting your arm and insisting that you spend inspiration points on Cunning Strike.

It's fair and balanced to allow stacking, and the whole ability is seriously nerf if it isn't. RAW, yeah, whatever, but I'd allow it without question.
If it's explicitly stated that it's not fair and balanced to allow Cunning Insight to stack, how is it other than fair and balanced to (follow the standard rules and) not allow Cunning Strike to stack, either?

Seriously, unless there's something written down that specifies Factotums must be able to outperform Rogues in all ways, I'll stick with the RAW. :smallsigh:

[prufock]

You then rip out the Ritiik, dealing automatic damage equal to the initial hit, which was the 3d8+96. Note that it's not rolled again, it's just equal to whatever that damage total was, so if it was a critical hit then it's just as much damage this time.

Strictly speaking, only the character hit by the ritiik can pull it out, dealing the damage, and it takes a full round to do so. There's no mention of the attacking character ripping it out, but even if you extrapolate to that conclusion, I would assume it would also take a full round.

[Legendairy]

Why would DR even matter? Most creatures don't have DR past 20 let alone 10. 10 points removed from 300+ damage really isn't much of a negative to worry about.

Well it was already said but again 11 arrows is minus 110 if the DR is 10. I have to ask tho what level is your build set for, the higher the level the more stuff that has a DR. At least thats how it works in most of our campaigns.

[Flickerdart]

*snip*
Aside from your math being off, your use of several swift actions in one round, critical WBL failure, ignoring nonproficiency penalties and the reliance on the absurd Arcane Swordsage, 11 attacks does not equal to one attack.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hank's Bow or Force Bows ignore DR. Go for those.

[tyckspoon]

Aside from your math being off, your use of several swift actions in one round, critical WBL failure, ignoring nonproficiency penalties and the reliance on the absurd Arcane Swordsage, 11 attacks does not equal to one attack.

Although Find The Gap + Hunter's Mercy+Guided Shot does work; Find the Gap has rnd/level duration, so you can precast that, Hunter's Mercy is like True Strike- standard this round, use the effect next round, and Guided Shot is Swift, so you cast that on the round you make your shot. You end up with an attack against touch AC from as far away as you spot your target, and if you hit you crit (Hunter's Mercy specifies you score a critical hit. No crit-threat-roll enhancement is needed here, because it skips the "confirm your threat" step entirely.) Get a power shot ability somewhere, add in crit-compatible damage enhancements like Collision, might even be worth going into Fighter for Weapon Spec and then Ranged Weapon Mastery. You won't get the sure-kill levels of damage that a melee hit with all the multipliers does, but it shouldn't be too hard to get that above 100 points or so. Not too bad for actual sniping in D&D, especially since you are ideally hidden and far enough away that your target can't locate you while you set up for the next shot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Strictly speaking, only the character hit by the ritiik can pull it out, dealing the damage, and it takes a full round to do so. There's no mention of the attacking character ripping it out, but even if you extrapolate to that conclusion, I would assume it would also take a full round.

When you strike an opponent with a weapon, it doesn't take any additional effort or actions on your part to withdraw that weapon from the opponent in order to strike again. This is the default to which exceptions are made.

The Ritiik specifies that it takes additional effort and actions for the impaled creature to remove it from himself, but it makes no exception for the attacking character's effort to withdraw the weapon.

Therefore, strictly speaking, the norm still applies to when the attacking character withdraws his own weapon, and he can remove it from the opponent without any additional effort or actions as is the standard for any weapon.

[TwylyghT]

Human, Fighter 2/ Paladin 5, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP: Ritiik (Frostburn), Power Attack, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Leap Attack; Charging Smite ACF (PH2). +1 Valorous Ritiik (item familiar), Armbands of Might (MIC), 1st level Pearls of Power; prepare Rhino's Rush in your Paladin spell slot. Requires minimum Str 13, Int 13, and Wis 12; prioritize Str and Cha. Possibly trade Fighter for OA Samurai and lose Item Familiar (although Paladin is not permissible in OA).

Cast Rhino's Rush (swift), charge in with Power Attack and Leap Attack, use Charging Smite. Your Ritiik hits, dealing x3 damage (Valorous, Rhino's Rush), the target must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be hooked by the weapon. Successfully hooking an opponent gives you a free Trip check, if successful you then get a free attack vs their prone AC (normal damage plus Leap Attack, no smite, no multipliers). You then yank out the weapon, automatically dealing damage equal to the initial hit (the damage that the reflex save DC was based on). Let's throw a few numbers around:

Str 16, Cha 16, Power Attack for -2 to hit. Total attack bonus +14 (+7 BAB, +2 charging, +3 Str, +3 Cha, +1 Enhancement, -2 Power Attack). Charging Smite damage is +15 (+5 smite, +10 charging smite). Power Attack damage is +12 (+4 for -2 two-handed, +2 armbands, increased by 100% for Leap Attack). Other damage factors are 1d8+1 for the +1 weapon, and +4 for Str 16 two-handed. Total damage on the initial hit is 1d8+32, x3 for 3d8+96, average 109.5 damage.

That's a Reflex save DC of over 110, which nothing can make on anything but a natural 20, so presume you get a trip attempt. Trip bonus is +9 (+3 Str, +4 Improved Trip, +2 Armbands), and you get an attack against their prone AC at an attack bonus of +11 (same as above but no Cha bonus because it's not a Smite). Damage is 1d8+17.

You then rip out the Ritiik, dealing automatic damage equal to the initial hit, which was the 3d8+96. Note that it's not rolled again, it's just equal to whatever that damage total was, so if it was a critical hit then it's just as much damage this time.

That's an average of 240 damage on one charge, and you can do that as many times as you have Pearls of Power and Smites for.

If you've run out of Smites and Rhino's Rushes, you can still charge with +11 to hit, for 2d8+34, trip at +11 for 1d8+17, and rip the weapon out dealing again whatever the initial 2d8+34 rolled. That's an average of 107.5 damage for zero resources spent. You should be able to get the +1 Valorous Ritiik and Armbands of Might by 6th level when you take Leap Attack, provided you can get the weapon at a discount such as via Item Familiar or buying loot from the party pool at half value and sacrificing its full value into a daisho.


Strictly speaking, only the character hit by the ritiik can pull it out, dealing the damage, and it takes a full round to do so. There's no mention of the attacking character ripping it out, but even if you extrapolate to that conclusion, I would assume it would also take a full round.

To add to this, if the ritiik is lodged in the foe before the trip is initiated, it shouldn't be available for the improved trip follow up either. Not sure if there is a RAW for that, but I think I would enforce it personally.

anywho..

Wizard/Rokugan Ninja/Assassin/Iaijutsu Master using whirling blade to deliver death attack from range with sneak attack and iaijutsu focus tacked on for good measure? Apply poisons to the weapon too. Save vs death attack or die, save vs poisons or die, save vs massive damage or die. If they make it through all of that, they are still off to a really bad start.

Bonus points for setting up a delayed grease spell to keep them flat footed after your initial strike for further sneak focused assaulting.

Or you could push them into a portable hole then roll it up, lol.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To add to this, if the ritiik is lodged in the foe before the trip is initiated, it shouldn't be available for the improved trip follow up either. Not sure if there is a RAW for that, but I think I would enforce it personally.

The attack roll via Improved Trip is not so much an extra attack as it is a check to see if the trip itself dealt damage. It can occur regardless of whether or not the weapon is lodged in the opponent already. It's not another swing of the weapon, it's a roll of the dice to see if tripping the opponent also damaged them.

[TwylyghT]

The attack roll via Improved Trip is not so much an extra attack as it is a check to see if the trip itself dealt damage. It can occur regardless of whether or not the weapon is lodged in the opponent already. It's not another swing of the weapon, it's a roll of the dice to see if tripping the opponent also damaged them.

I understand that the spirit of the feat is to see, for example, if you not only hooked the leg with your heavy pick, but stabbed it at the same time, and 99% of the time when tripping its not an issue.

However my issue is the ritiik breaks this exchange in two ways now that I have looked it up.

Mechanically, if the original attack hits, and deals damage, the ritiik then may become lodged, and if it becomes lodged it then grants a free trip attack. Now improved trip allows you a free attack as if you hadn't used your attack to trip *but* the attack actually used to trip, itself, is a bonus attack that can only be used to trip. You can't really trip a prone target so its a wash.

Spiritually, Improved trip is meant to allow you to trip and still do damage, as by default you give up your chance at damage to attempt a trip. The ritiik however deals damage, then trips, and improved trip would make it deal damage *again* making it arguably twice as good with a ritiik than with other weapons, especially with obnoxious amounts of bonus damage from ubercharge style nonsense. This dynamic is why many weapons and effects that deal damage and grant a trip attempt come with the "this effect does not benefit from improved trip" disclaimer.

[noparlpf]

Using the DMG's rules to create custom items, get an item that lets you use Surge of Fortune as a swift action unlimited times per day. I think the lowest I managed to make the price was 45.000 gp, assuming I have the rules for creating items properly.
Surge of Fortune is a 5th level spell, so the creator needs to be at least 9th level.
DMM Persist Spell lets you use Turning attempts instead of raising the spell level to 11th in order to make its duration 24 hours.
Cost = CLxSLx2.000; divide by two because the duration is 24 hours.
Cost = (5x9x2.000)/2 = 45.000 gp.
A Vorpal longsword costs 72.315 gp.
So this doesn't become a viable option until above 13th level (unless you want to mess around with Balors and get the Vorpal sword for free), and it involves some sketchy homebrewing (even if it does follow existing rules), so it's not likely to be allowed.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not seeing anything that suggests that magic items can be created with metamagicked spells.

[noparlpf]

I'm not seeing anything that suggests that magic items can be created with metamagicked spells.

I'm largely certain that I read somewhere that items can be created using metamagic. I may be wrong.
If I am wrong, then take out Persistent Spell and have it cost lots and be an epic item. Something like that really ought to be an artifact anyhow.

[olentu]

Hmmm DMG 282 as I recall.

[noparlpf]

Hmmm DMG 282 as I recall.

Yup, it does say that you can do that. I knew I had read that somewhere. Using DMM just makes it cheaper to do so, which is cheesy. Using Persistent Spell makes it even cheaper by extending the duration, which is cheesier.

[2xMachina]

I understand that the spirit of the feat is to see, for example, if you not only hooked the leg with your heavy pick, but stabbed it at the same time, and 99% of the time when tripping its not an issue.

However my issue is the ritiik breaks this exchange in two ways now that I have looked it up.

Mechanically, if the original attack hits, and deals damage, the ritiik then may become lodged, and if it becomes lodged it then grants a free trip attack. Now improved trip allows you a free attack as if you hadn't used your attack to trip *but* the attack actually used to trip, itself, is a bonus attack that can only be used to trip. You can't really trip a prone target so its a wash.

Spiritually, Improved trip is meant to allow you to trip and still do damage, as by default you give up your chance at damage to attempt a trip. The ritiik however deals damage, then trips, and improved trip would make it deal damage *again* making it arguably twice as good with a ritiik than with other weapons, especially with obnoxious amounts of bonus damage from ubercharge style nonsense. This dynamic is why many weapons and effects that deal damage and grant a trip attempt come with the "this effect does not benefit from improved trip" disclaimer.

Heh.

Knockdown gives you a trip after dealing damage. Then you attack again with Imp. Trip.

[sonofzeal]

If Cunning Insight is a better choice for you, obviously you can pick that instead. Or, since Cunning Insight doesn't stack with itself, you can also add Cunning Strike for even more damage at the cost of a second IP. Nobody's twisting your arm and insisting that you spend inspiration points on Cunning Strike.
All of that was covered in my post.

However, without serious FoI abuse, IP is a harshly limited resource. Since just about everything a Factotum does depends on it, it's a resource you have to conserve, and one you can blow through extremely quickly. As such, the Factotum is almost guaranteed to prefer saving the IP for more Cunning Insight rather than blowing it on a single d6 from Cunning Strike.

And personally, I prefer the (RAI, not RAW) interpretation that makes the ability at least situationally useful, over the one that makes it effectively useless across the board.


If it's explicitly stated that it's not fair and balanced to allow Cunning Insight to stack, how is it other than fair and balanced to (follow the standard rules and) not allow Cunning Strike to stack, either?
Er.... you've totally lost me.


Seriously, unless there's something written down that specifies Factotums must be able to outperform Rogues in all ways, I'll stick with the RAW. :smallsigh:
Without FoI abuse, the Factotum isn't "able to outperform Rogues in all ways". The favorite Rogue damage-dealing technique is to get big SA damage on a whole bunch of attacks in the same turn, often via TWF and other methods of increasing number of attacks. I've seen plenty of Rogues that regularly made mincemeat out of enemies.

A 10th level Rogue can add at least 5d6 SA on every attack, and probably has at least four attacks. A 10th level Factotum with Cunning Strike stacking could add 5d6 SA... on a single attack. And then she's out of IP for the entire rest of the fight, not just a round.

Cunning Strike stacking in no way renders Rogues obsolete. Rogues still have substantially better DPS if they can get their SA off. I've never seen a Factotum who was a serious combat monster, although our groups generally don't abuse FoI or Iaijutsu Focus or Gnomish Quickrazors much. Brains Over Brawn and Arcane Dilettante both make Rogues jealous, but Cunning Strike stacking won't let your average Factotum overtake the Rogue in damage-dealing capability.

[Xtomjames]

Aside from your math being off, your use of several swift actions in one round, critical WBL failure, ignoring nonproficiency penalties and the reliance on the absurd Arcane Swordsage, 11 attacks does not equal to one attack.

My math wasn't off, thanks. You're using several swift actions over a period of set up out of initiative (ergo it doesn't matter here), you presume the build doesn't have proficiencies with a Martial Weapon (amusing), and the arcane swordsage that I presented isn't absurd it's specialized. 11 attacks is one attack however in this case because technically speaking the Arrowsplit spell turns one arrow (ie one attack) into 1d4+1/level missiles. DR applies only to the first damage from any One Attack (DR 10 removes only the first 10 points of damage) it's not DR 10 per arrowsplit missile, it's DR 10 for the entire attack.

So it's not -110 it's -10. Arrowsplit is treated as One Attack you do not make attack rolls for each magically created missiles, therefore it is one accumulative attack in damage.

[Boci]

and the arcane swordsage that I presented isn't absurd it's specialized.

He was saying arcane swordages is absurd, nothing specific to yours.

[Flickerdart]

So it's not -110 it's -10. Arrowsplit is treated as One Attack you do not make attack rolls for each magically created missiles, therefore it is one accumulative attack in damage.
Except you totally do. Please actually read the spells you're using next time.

Edit: Also, Arrowsplit is Conjuration, meaning an Arcane Swordsage cannot learn it. Great job there. You also have to cast both it and Sniper's Shot in the same round (one affects attacks made before the start of your next turn, the other only works on a bolt already in flight), and both of them use a swift action. And Sniper's Shot? Divination, can't learn it. So you have to use two swift actions in one round to cast spells you can't use. Find the Gap? Divination. Guided Shot? Also Divination, and only lasts one round, so now you've using three swift actions in one turn with spells you can't cast. Critical Strike? Also a Divination, also a swift action, also lasts one turn.

So, to sum up: you use four swift actions in one round to cast four spells you cannot, in fact, cast.

[tyckspoon]

My math wasn't off, thanks. You're using several swift actions over a period of set up out of initiative (ergo it doesn't matter here), you presume the build doesn't have proficiencies with a Martial Weapon (amusing), and the arcane swordsage that I presented isn't absurd it's specialized. 11 attacks is one attack however in this case because technically speaking the Arrowsplit spell turns one arrow (ie one attack) into 1d4+1/level missiles. DR applies only to the first damage from any One Attack (DR 10 removes only the first 10 points of damage) it's not DR 10 per arrowsplit missile, it's DR 10 for the entire attack.

So it's not -110 it's -10. Arrowsplit is treated as One Attack you do not make attack rolls for each magically created missiles, therefore it is one accumulative attack in damage.

Every time you post I have to wonder if you assume you have everything memorized and don't check your books much or if you've been playing with such extensive houseruling for so long that you don't remember they're houserules..

For example: The Swift spells you want to use are only next attack or 1 round duration whichever comes first. This makes it very difficult to stack more than 2 of them and that's only for the ones that are one round and not next attack, regardless of whether you're in combat or not. True Strike is not an Immediate Action. Neither is Invisibility, nor is Blindsight- I hope you just meant "these have long enough duration that they don't matter when arranging your actions for your shot." Extra Readied Maneuver can't be taken twice. Guided Shot and Exacting Shot are largely redundant in effect. Nothing you have listed gives an automatic critical threat (Hunter's Mercy gives an automatic critical hit, which as I mentioned upthread lets you skip 'roll to confirm' altogether, but you didn't list that one as being used.) Arrowsplit, at least the only source of it I know of (Champions of Ruin) is much weaker- it only makes d4+1 arrows, no scaling by caster level, and all of them explicitly use separate attack rolls, so all of your setup will only apply to a single arrow. Critical Strike specifies that it only works with melee attacks.

[Flickerdart]

Every time you post I have to wonder if you assume you have everything memorized and don't check your books much or if you've been playing with such extensive houseruling for so long that you don't remember they're houserules..

Considering that these "houserules" always seem to lead to ridiculous exploits, I'd have to guess the former.

[Xtomjames]

Every time you post I have to wonder if you assume you have everything memorized and don't check your books much or if you've been playing with such extensive houseruling for so long that you don't remember they're houserules..

For example: The Swift spells you want to use are only next attack or 1 round duration whichever comes first. This makes it very difficult to stack more than 2 of them and that's only for the ones that are one round and not next attack, regardless of whether you're in combat or not. True Strike is not an Immediate Action. Neither is Invisibility, nor is Blindsight- I hope you just meant "these have long enough duration that they don't matter when arranging your actions for your shot." Extra Readied Maneuver can't be taken twice. Guided Shot and Exacting Shot are largely redundant in effect. Nothing you have listed gives an automatic critical threat (Hunter's Mercy gives an automatic critical hit, which as I mentioned upthread lets you skip 'roll to confirm' altogether, but you didn't list that one as being used.) Arrowsplit, at least the only source of it I know of (Champions of Ruin) is much weaker- it only makes d4+1 arrows, no scaling by caster level, and all of them explicitly use separate attack rolls, so all of your setup will only apply to a single arrow. Critical Strike specifies that it only works with melee attacks.

The ones I explicitly took are on Next attack or next round for this very reason. You first initiate the ones that hold for a longer period of time or are for the Next Attack (which remains active until the next attack which is indefinite) there are only two that last for one round or less and they allow you to activate them just prior to the strike. Guided Shot and Exacting shot aren't meant to be used in the same attack they're there for different circumstances. I didn't suggest Hunter's Mercy because I didn't notice it, though it could be a useful replacement spell in the list.

On Arrowsplit: There are two sources for it, one is Champions of Ruin and the other is from a 3rd party book (D20 Rangers, Rogues, and Thieves) in any case the one I was using says it's a single attack not multiple attacks and it's adjusted via level.

However you're correct that the Champions of Ruin version makes each one an individual attack.


None the less there is a fix to the whole problem anyways and that's take a dip into an archer PRC Dawn Archer (from Dawnforge Crucible of Legend). One of the EX abilities is to ignore DR.

[Flickerdart]

The ones I explicitly took are on Next attack or next round for this very reason.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. As I demonstrated above, you have to activate four swift action spells in one round (or across two rounds with Extend Spell). Both versions are impossible to achieve with your build. Thanks for playing.

Also, you still can't cast the spells because they're of the wrong schools.

[Douglas]

The ones I explicitly took are on Next attack or next round for this very reason. You first initiate the ones that hold for a longer period of time or are for the Next Attack (which remains active until the next attack which is indefinite) there are only two that last for one round or less and they allow you to activate them just prior to the strike.
I just checked. Every spell in your list that's actually a swift action has a 1 round limit.


On Arrowsplit: There are two sources for it, one is Champions of Ruin and the other is from a 3rd party book (D20 Rangers, Rogues, and Thieves) in any case the one I was using says it's a single attack not multiple attacks and it's adjusted via level.

However you're correct that the Champions of Ruin version makes each one an individual attack.

None the less there is a fix to the whole problem anyways and that's take a dip into an archer PRC Dawn Archer (from Dawnforge Crucible of Legend). One of the EX abilities is to ignore DR.
3rd party? Really? I know WotC is bad about balance, but 3rd party is so egregiously unreliable that there's no comparison. Dragon material is sort of in between.

In general on these forums, the default is that WotC material is allowed but 3rd party is not. Don't bring 3rd party into a rules discussion here without explicit approval or a prominent caveat. If you don't have either then your advice will almost certainly be discarded as irrelevant, and if you went the caveat route it'll probably be discarded anyway.

[Flickerdart]

You know what?

Let's assume that Arcane Swordsages can use all the spells you want.

Let's assume that you have four swift actions in one round.

Let's assume that Arrowsplit makes one attack roll.

You don't get extra precision damage on volley attacks (attacks that make one attack roll but hit with multiple shots, like the Arrowsplit version you want to use), and don't multiply dice on a critical hit, so you're still losing practically all of your damage.

So even if it works, it still doesn't work.

::slowclap::

[TwylyghT]

Heh.

Knockdown gives you a trip after dealing damage. Then you attack again with Imp. Trip.

Knockdown would not actually benefit from improved trip either. Knockdown grants a trip attack as a free action if you deal 10 or more damage. Its this free attack that does the trip.

Improved trip lets you attack the foe "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt". The free attack granted by knock-down is not a normal attack with options, it is a specified trip attack. Attacking again as if you had not used your attack to trip, preserves the conditions and options available to the triggering attack. The free trip attack that tripped the opponent can *only* be a trip, thus the free attack from improved trip must also be a trip.

The opponent is already prone, you can not trip them again. Again it is a wash for the very same reasons the ritiik is .

[Klyth Manyclaw]

Level 6 Human Warblade, two flaws, Vulnerable and Inattentive.
Feats:
Bonus (flaw): Dodge,
Bonus (flaw): Combat Expertise,
Bonus (human): Combat Reflexes,
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 3: Karmic Strike
Bonus (Level 5 Warblade): Ironheart Aura
Level 6: Stormguard Warrior

Take whatever feats you want to augment your damage potential at later levels, although keep in mind that charging doesn't really work with the build. You want your AC to be as low as physically possible for this build... the one I did, wearing no armor and with a 17 Dex, had a final AC of 3 while in Punishing Stance, the requisite stance for the build. Essentially, using one of
Stormguard Warrior's options you hit your opponent with as many touch attacks as you have attacks in the round, for a stacking +5 bonus to damage in the next round, per touch attack that hits. Then, for each attack that he takes against you, you earn an attack of opportunity. For each attack that hits (hence why you want the low AC), you get a stacking +4 to attack and damage. Power Attack away your full BAB, add 2x this to damage, because you should be using a two-handed weapon. Against an opponent making 3 attacks a round, your standard claw-claw-bite routine, and assuming all of your touch attacks land with a Greatsword, making two attacks per round, and assuming all of the attacks hit your 3 AC (They will unless he rolls nat ones)... you'll deal 2d6+1.5x Str mod+10+12+12+1d6 for Punishing stance, one you have to take in order to get Ironheart Aura and at this level the best stance for the build+Maneuver.

This averages out to, with an 18 strength, and we'll just say Soaring Raptor Strike since you won't have Ruby Nightmare Blade this level... 2(3.5)+1.5(4)+10+12+12+3.5+6(3.5)...
9(3.5)+1.5(4)+34...
31.5+6+34=91.5 average damage, at level 6. Most appropriate CR encounters can't survive that. I've played the build up to level 12, and it seems to hold the one-shot one-kill capacity fairly well as you level up using the various nightmare blades and better stances, improved ability to power attack with higher BAB, etc. Bonus points if you flavor your greatsword as a daikatana. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, you have to hold those attacks of opportunity. The held attacks of opportunity are what grants you the +4 atk and damage. You'll also want as high of a Dexterity score as you can get, for ALL the attacks of opportunity possible through Combat Reflexes.

[noparlpf]

Knockdown would not actually benefit from improved trip either. Knockdown grants a trip attack as a free action if you deal 10 or more damage. Its this free attack that does the trip.

Improved trip lets you attack the foe "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt". The free attack granted by knock-down is not a normal attack with options, it is a specified trip attack. Attacking again as if you had not used your attack to trip, preserves the conditions and options available to the triggering attack. The free trip attack that tripped the opponent can *only* be a trip, thus the free attack from improved trip must also be a trip.

The opponent is already prone, you can not trip them again. Again it is a wash for the very same reasons the ritiik is .

I've seen the idea that Knockdown triggers Cleave because your foe "dropped" to the ground.

[Curmudgeon]

Improved trip lets you attack the foe "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt". The free attack granted by knock-down is not a normal attack with options, it is a specified trip attack. Attacking again as if you had not used your attack to trip, preserves the conditions and options available to the triggering attack. The free trip attack that tripped the opponent can *only* be a trip, thus the free attack from improved trip must also be a trip.
The phrase "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" merely refers to the fact that that bonus attack is at the same AB. It does not force you to use a full attack action to get the extra attack, nor does it incur any iterative attack penalties when you do use a full attack action. That's all it means. For instance, the phrase does not remove the prone condition (with its associated penalties) from your opponent "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt".

For what it's worth, the FAW author concurs.
If I use Mighty Throw (ToB 73) or another maneuver that allows me to trip a foe, does the Improved Trip feat grant me an extra attack against that opponent?
Yes. The Improved Trip feat applies any time you trip a foe in melee combat, even if that trip comes from a special power.


The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks.

[TwylyghT]

The phrase "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" merely refers to the fact that that bonus attack is at the same AB. It does not force you to use a full attack action to get the extra attack, nor does it incur any iterative attack penalties when you do use a full attack action. That's all it means. For instance, the phrase does not remove the prone condition (with its associated penalties) from your opponent "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt".

For what it's worth, the FAW author concurs.

I have no doubt that the feat triggers, I just believed the free attack needs to have been one that would have been a legal choice for the triggering action, leading to useless free attacks.

I seem to have been wrong, and until I started looking into it for this I had also for the longest time thought there was a clause that the followup must be with the same weapon that tripped, and was wrong about that too apparently.

Master of the Unseen Hand just got a lot more interesting...

[prufock]

When you strike an opponent with a weapon, it doesn't take any additional effort or actions on your part to withdraw that weapon from the opponent in order to strike again. This is the default to which exceptions are made.

Source? As far as I can tell, there is no general clause regarding weapons sticking in your opponent at all, and thus no need for a rule on withdrawing it. The ritiik would be an exception to this. If there is such a rule, please cite it, because I'd like to know.


The Ritiik specifies that it takes additional effort and actions for the impaled creature to remove it from himself, but it makes no exception for the attacking character's effort to withdraw the weapon.
If you're taking the general rule that all other weapons require no action on the part of the attacker to remove, then we should also apply the rule that all other weapons do no additional damage when removed by the attacker. The ritiik exception only applies to "the damaged creature." We can't pick and choose which general rules apply.

[Abaddon87]

Master of the Unseen Hand just got a lot more interesting...

Not to derail threads but I have always loved the Unseen Hand PRC so I have to ask... what about the trip rules makes MotUH so interesting?

[Gotterdammerung]

Its late so i might crank out a more detailed version later but for now heres the skeleton of the build.

War mage to start, get into eldritch knight DMG any way you want to.

Using a war sling (exotic weapon)

Vest of the master transmuter (adaption of vest of the master evoker from MiC, more than reasonable adaption, shouldn't have any problems getting your DM to agree.)
Blistering spell

and flame arrow


You get your start at 1d4+ str damage + 1d6+12+ intelligence fire for 50 sling bolts. You can also attack 2 enemies with 1 bullet as long as they are adjacent (see races of the wild Skip stone for rules)

From here you can branch out into a bunch of different ways.

On the metamagic feat side here are the kind of feats you want to be looking at.

Cost reduction:
Arcane Thesis (flame arrow)
Metamagic school focus (transmutation)

Offensive:
Heighten- use this to raise the spell lvl adding 4 fire damage per lvl raised
Empower- use this to apply 50% more to the whole fire side of your damage equation.

enervate and energize spell- not very feat cost effective but if you have extras these 2 feats will allow you to make 2 batches of bullets. 1 for living things and 1 for undead things. Giving 50% more dmg to the fire side of the equation.

Fell Drain- will make enemy take 1 negative lvl per sling atk. Doesnt necessarily fit with the fire theme of the build but strong nonetheless.


Defense ignoring-

Searing spell- 50% more dmg vs cold, ignore ER fire, if creature is immune to fire still do 50%

Corrupt or Consecrate spell- change 50% of the fire dmg to divine dmg.


On this metamagic side its important to note that you usually will not have enough feats to get everything and still be a competent archer. But I listed the good options anyway so you could have choices for variation.
The main thing you want is heighten so you can get more damage out of the cloak and blistering spell so that your damage can increase with level.
And empower really makes the most out of the extra dmg you are adding from warmage edge, cloak and blistering.

Also important to note,
Both metamagic school focus and arcane thesis lack the "can not lower metamagic cost to less than 1" restrictive test. So it is possible to put all of these metamagics on for free.


Archery side:

Magic enhancements: Splitting enhancement out of Champions of Ruin is all you really need here but feel free to throw on other things if you want.

Splitting will split your bolts into 2 allowing you to hit a potential 2 targets 2 times each with 1 shot, with crazy fire dmg on each hit.

Its also possible to use aptitude weapon enhancement in conjunction with crossbow sniper feat to be able to add your strength and half your dex to your slingshot dmg. But since you will already be penny pinching on feats i dont necessarily recommend it.

Feats:
Good ranged feats are all staples old as time. There the same for every archer. Find em get familiar with them and then choose wich ones you can and cant live without.


I recommend gettin your staple metamgics written out first then choosing your "cant live without" ranged feats. Then painstakingly choose between left over meta and ranged feats.

Important stats are chr int dex and str. Chr only needs to be high enough to cast your current lvl of spell however. Int is important for edge dmg. Dex is your accuracy. Str is for sling bolt dmg and is least important.






Ok so mock up to show what kind of dmg this would be at 9th lvl spells.

lets assume something ridiculously modest for edge dmg like +4
and something modest for str dmg like +2

and lets throw in searing empower blistering heighten to 9th lvl

and assume 6 warmage 1 fighter 12 eldritch knight

and just in keeping with the whole "1 atk roll" theme of the OP lets say its a manyshot.(although taking a full attack with rapid shot would be better.

You would fire 4 slingbolts. These 4 would split into 8 sling bolts. These 8 sling bolts could ricochet off to hit an extra enemy if he is adjacent to your target (lets say there is 2 enemies side by side)

The dmg for the bolts would be
1d4+2 and (1d6+40)*1.5 fire dmg 64-75 total damage

if everything hits both creatures its gonna obliterate them. Even at minimum dmg rolls thats 512 dmg to each creature.

DR would knock 24 points.
ER would knock off 0
Fire immunity would knock off 240 dmg

Still easily 1 hit kill.

And yes this is at 19th lvl but the build scales back well. It is equally impressive at mid levels.

P.S. if you threw fell drain in there they would each take 8 negative levels losing 40 more max hp -8 to d20 rolls and losing 8 of their highest lvl spells randomly =)

What i like about this build is you don't require min maxed OP stats to make it work. The feats do most the work for you.

Flaws are worth looking into, remember you get 2 at first lvl but in the text it states at the DMs discretion more flaws can be used, see traits. Then in the traits section it explains 2 at first and 1 at 5 and every 5 lvls after. So at your GM's discretion you can have 2 at first 1 at 5th 1 at 10th 1 at 15 1 at 20th.

Flaws recommended:
feeble- hero forge seems to think that initiative is a dex check. I personally disagree. But thats an argument for another day.

Slow- ranged combatant so slow movement doesnt hurt. Plus lots of items and spells you can use to move around.

Vulnerable- you wont have much resources left over for AC and to me a 16 ac is just as crap as a 15 ac. so no harm there.

Noncombatant- minus 2 to melee wont be a big deal to a ranged combatnt.

Inattentive- -4 spot and listen. I would take this last or not at all.

The rest of the flaws in my opinion are too dangerous to take.

Any way have fun with my lava rocks build.

[tyckspoon]

Splitting only works on bows or crossbows and Manyshot only works on arrows. You have to choose between damage output with archery or sometimes getting to multi-target with the skiprocks.

Also people think initiative is a Dex check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) because
Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.

it is one.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ok, so have a quick chat with your DM and take "Many sling bullets" and "duplicating"

The equivalent sling feat and magic enhancment that only work on slings.

There is equivalency and D & D is a custom game. A good portion of the DMG is dedicated to explaining that.

[TwylyghT]

Not to derail threads but I have always loved the Unseen Hand PRC so I have to ask... what about the trip rules makes MotUH so interesting?

The interaction between improved trip, telekinetic wielder, and full attack telekinesis. Didn't mean that I thought it was anything breaking, just opened up my eyes to an interesting fighting style I hadn't considered.

Full attack telekinesis would allow you to make multiple trip attacks within the range of the the spell, and follow them up with attacks from improved trip by way of telekinetic wielder adding melee weapon attacks to the combat maneuver function of telekinesis.

Added style points if you first use telekinesis to disarm a foe, before force tripping him and impaling him with his own weapon.

On a side note, I have a sudden desire to look into mixing MotUH with a dungeoncrashing fighter... somehow for those who have seen Kung-FU Hustle... I picture the Buddist Palm technique.

[Douglas]

Now for real fun try adding Chain Spell to your Telekinesis as a MotUH.

[Dragonsoul]

Go 11 int wizard
=>Twinned Fell drain Magic Missile is 10 Negative Levels

You can max out Force missile Mage and up that figure to 14, then you can quicken a fell drained to get it up to 28 Negative levels in one round, with Metamagic reducers(Notably Arcane thesis) you can make this a Net add on of maybe 1 or 2<and you could get it to zero with sufficient cheese> and get it online pretty quickly

Work on everything? No.but it has high range and always hits, which is quite nice, and even without Fell drain, your doing not insignificant damage <14D4 in a third level spellslot?, pretty cool>

Stylish as hell?yeah..you're killing people with Magic missile(Bonus points if you kill a creature while it is on an area without illumination.)

Disclaimer:No, it doesn't work on undead, please don't point it out.

[NNescio]

Go 11 int wizard
=>Twinned Fell drain Magic Missile is 10 Negative Levels

You can max out Force missile Mage and up that figure to 14, then you can quicken a fell drained to get it up to 28 Negative levels in one round, with Metamagic reducers(Notably Arcane thesis) you can make this a Net add on of maybe 1 or 2<and you could get it to zero with sufficient cheese> and get it online pretty quickly

Work on everything? No.but it has high range and always hits, which is quite nice, and even without Fell drain, your doing not insignificant damage <14D4 in a third level spellslot?, pretty cool>

Stylish as hell?yeah..you're killing people with Magic missile(Bonus points if you kill a creature while it is on an area without illumination.)

Disclaimer:No, it doesn't work on undead, please don't point it out.

Don't Sorcs work better for the dedicated blasting route? Plus having more points in style due to their casting stat.

[Flickerdart]

Go 11 int wizard
=>Twinned Fell drain Magic Missile is 10 Negative Levels
Except it's only 2. Fell Drain: "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level." Focusing the spell's effects on a single creature won't modify the amount of negative levels it's hit by. Fell Drain doesn't care how many times a spell damages the creature, only if the spell does damage at all. There's absolutely no language in place to suggest that you get more than one negative level per creature per casting.

[Acanous]

Thing 1: A wizard with 11 int cannot apply metamagic to 1st level spells, as they don't have the ability to cast anything above a 1st level slot. Metamagic reducers and such could have you do funny things, but you'd need to have a decent INT to apply twin spell and fell drain simultaniously.

Thing 2: Fell Drain COULD apply 10 neg levels, to 10 different targets in one round. It does the negative level to "Creatures damaged by the spell" not "Per damage dice dealt"

I suppose you could Missile, Celerity, Missile, Quickened Missile if you were high enough, but at that point 3 neg levels wouldn't be lethal. Very nice debuffs, and a good way to make the party fighter feel useful, but not lethal by itself. By the level at which you're casting Twinned Fell Draining Magic Missiles, you could do better things with 3 spells in a round.

[deuxhero]

Wizard/Sorcerer 1

Sleep/Color Spray


Done!


For keeping the build working, take more wizard/sorc levels (possibly prcs), change the spell to Web/Grease, Slow ect,


Now can your melee have nice things?

[Dragonsoul]

Thing 1: A wizard with 11 int cannot apply metamagic to 1st level spells, as they don't have the ability to cast anything above a 1st level slot. Metamagic reducers and such could have you do funny things, but you'd need to have a decent INT to apply twin spell and fell drain simultaniously.

Thing 2: Fell Drain COULD apply 10 neg levels, to 10 different targets in one round. It does the negative level to "Creatures damaged by the spell" not "Per damage dice dealt"

I suppose you could Missile, Celerity, Missile, Quickened Missile if you were high enough, but at that point 3 neg levels wouldn't be lethal. Very nice debuffs, and a good way to make the party fighter feel useful, but not lethal by itself. By the level at which you're casting Twinned Fell Draining Magic Missiles, you could do better things with 3 spells in a round.

Well the first point is wrong, Magic missile is 1st level spell, so can be cast with 11 int. A Quickened Fell drain enlarged Twinned Maximised fell frighten Magic missile is a 1st level spell so it can be cast with 11int

Thing 2: It seems your right by RAW, but that just feels like it should work by RAI and I thing you could convince your DM to agree.<Please to not take this a RAW vs RAI argument>

Thing 3: Arcane thesis, Easy Metamagic Would make a Fell drain a net +0 add a few Metamagic rods and go nuts, you may not kill your target but you'll be throwing a lot of d4's around....This inspires me to make a thread on a character like this

[Flickerdart]

Thing 2: It seems your right by RAW, but that just feels like it should work by RAI and I thing you could convince your DM to agree.<Please to not take this a RAW vs RAI argument>
You really think that the designers intended you to be able to inflict 5 negative levels with a 3rd level spell slot? Surely you must be joking. Enervation is a level higher, only deals 1d4 and still requires a touch attack to hit. You're asking for a spell that's literally twice as good, plus without an attack roll requirement, and one level lower, than a spell that's already a prime target for metamagic abuse.

[Dragonsoul]

Well no, I mean it makes more sense Logically for it to give Multiple Negative Levels..I ignore balance at times like this as the Feat is pretty busted at the best of times.

[Flickerdart]

Well no, I mean it makes more sense Logically for it to give Multiple Negative Levels..I ignore balance at times like this as the Feat is pretty busted at the best of times.
Still doesn't make sense - the feat affects the target the same whether on a Sonic Snap or a Polar Ray, so it doesn't care about the magnitude of the effect. One casting of magic missile is still one casting, regardless of how many effects it produces - it's just a variable magnitude.

[Xtomjames]

You know what?

Let's assume that Arcane Swordsages can use all the spells you want.

Let's assume that you have four swift actions in one round.

Let's assume that Arrowsplit makes one attack roll.

You don't get extra precision damage on volley attacks (attacks that make one attack roll but hit with multiple shots, like the Arrowsplit version you want to use), and don't multiply dice on a critical hit, so you're still losing practically all of your damage.

So even if it works, it still doesn't work.

::slowclap::


Hold it, first off where does it say the swordsage can't use those spells, as I recall the paragraph SUGGESTS limiting the spell types, it doesn't implicitly say they ARE limited. And I'll quote "In general, spells from the schools of Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are most appropriate for the Swordsage of this type, especially those with a range of personal or touch..." (page 20 ToB). No where does it say that the swordsage is limited to these spell types, only that they are more appropriate. So that ends your point there.

AGAIN, this is for a character who is attacking with a Surprise round out of initiative which means you have as many actions as you want prior to your initial attack action. This includes swift actions. He's a sniper taking out multiple targets at a long distance without them knowing about him. That's his purpose, swift actions, immediate actions, and all other action types ONLY apply when inside of initiative.

As to the affects of a "volley attack" if in fact the attack is treated as ONE attack it is no longer a Volley attack even if it is hitting with multiple strikes. The rules on this are actually very vague, but since you're rolling for One Attack and then all multipliers and bonuses apply. That said even if you're not using it to attack a single person the Arrowsplit spell allows for you to attack a large crowd.

[Tr011]

Well the first point is wrong, Magic missile is 1st level spell, so can be cast with 11 int. A Quickened Fell drain enlarged Twinned Maximised fell frighten Magic missile is a 1st level spell so it can be cast with 11int

Thing 2: It seems your right by RAW, but that just feels like it should work by RAI and I thing you could convince your DM to agree.<Please to not take this a RAW vs RAI argument>

Thing 3: Arcane thesis, Easy Metamagic Would make a Fell drain a net +0 add a few Metamagic rods and go nuts, you may not kill your target but you'll be throwing a lot of d4's around....This inspires me to make a thread on a character like this

Magic Missle Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0). You can do this with Fell Drain, too. You get easily over 10 negative levels in one round, but then you have to ask yourself why you do that: Many enemies are immune to those effects.

[2xMachina]

Hold it, first off where does it say the swordsage can't use those spells, as I recall the paragraph SUGGESTS limiting the spell types, it doesn't implicitly say they ARE limited. And I'll quote "In general, spells from the schools of Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are most appropriate for the Swordsage of this type, especially those with a range of personal or touch..." (page 20 ToB). No where does it say that the swordsage is limited to these spell types, only that they are more appropriate. So that ends your point there.

AGAIN, this is for a character who is attacking with a Surprise round out of initiative which means you have as many actions as you want prior to your initial attack action. This includes swift actions. He's a sniper taking out multiple targets at a long distance without them knowing about him. That's his purpose, swift actions, immediate actions, and all other action types ONLY apply when inside of initiative.

As to the affects of a "volley attack" if in fact the attack is treated as ONE attack it is no longer a Volley attack even if it is hitting with multiple strikes. The rules on this are actually very vague, but since you're rolling for One Attack and then all multipliers and bonuses apply. That said even if you're not using it to attack a single person the Arrowsplit spell allows for you to attack a large crowd.

It's pretty damn hard to get the DM to OK arcane swordsage, especially one without school limits.

[Boci]

Hold it, first off where does it say the swordsage can't use those spells, as I recall the paragraph SUGGESTS limiting the spell types, it doesn't implicitly say they ARE limited.

It also only suggests the possibility that the class could exist in the first place.

[Flickerdart]

Hold it, first off where does it say the swordsage can't use those spells, as I recall the paragraph SUGGESTS limiting the spell types, it doesn't implicitly say they ARE limited. And I'll quote "In general, spells from the schools of Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are most appropriate for the Swordsage of this type, especially those with a range of personal or touch..." (page 20 ToB). No where does it say that the swordsage is limited to these spell types, only that they are more appropriate. So that ends your point there.

Arcane Swordsage is just a suggestion. If you can ignore that suggestion, you ignore the entire suggestion just as easily, so that ends your point there.



AGAIN, this is for a character who is attacking with a Surprise round out of initiative which means you have as many actions as you want prior to your initial attack action. This includes swift actions. He's a sniper taking out multiple targets at a long distance without them knowing about him. That's his purpose, swift actions, immediate actions, and all other action types ONLY apply when inside of initiative.

A spell with the duration of one round has a duration of one round regardless of whether or not you are in combat - which means it expires before you can cast the next one. Want to argue otherwise? Cite some rules, from a book and not your imagination.



As to the affects of a "volley attack" if in fact the attack is treated as ONE attack it is no longer a Volley attack even if it is hitting with multiple strikes. The rules on this are actually very vague, but since you're rolling for One Attack and then all multipliers and bonuses apply. That said even if you're not using it to attack a single person the Arrowsplit spell allows for you to attack a large crowd.
That's the definition of a volley - one attack roll with multiple hits.
Even if you attack a large crowd, you still apply precision damage once. The rules on this are not vague at all - if you're rolling one attack roll, you only get to apply precision damage once, regardless of how many strikes you actually make. This is the entire reason that Greater Manyshot exists.

So in conclusion, you're still wrong.