using a 3.0 Template on a 3.5 character

[acheronavernus]

I have a question for anyone who might have the necessary knowledge to help me. I have found several templates from 3.0 sources that have no level adjustment, and so therefore i don't know how to implement them in a balanced way for a 3.5 character. other than the lack of level adjustments most of these templates are relatively easy to convert to 3.5 (DR/ +whatever has to be converted to DR/magic is one of the few changes that absolutely needs to be done inmost cases, haha). so how can i create a balanced LA that allows them to be played with 3.5 characters?

[Fenryr]

Are you DM or Player? I think that templates without LA are only for the DM, to increase the CR of monsters. If you really need/want the LA, lets wait for someone else to help.

[acheronavernus]

I am primarily a player, but i also occasionally DM. and while your assertion as to the templates being for DMs is probably true, the LA thing is for balance, so it would be useful either for a PC or an NPC.

[Flickerdart]

LA -- templates are usually not appropriate for player characters - they're either too powerful to be given a level adjustment of any kind, make the base creature an inappropriate type (such as non-intelligent undead), or can be easily abused should the player decide to build for it (but harmless on an Int 2 animal or something). Thus there wouldn't really be a way to assign them an LA.

[acheronavernus]

for the most part that is true yes, but for example for a campaign using monster classes (which is what made me want to look at templates in the first place) they would be very useful

[Flickerdart]

It'd help if you said what those templates actually are.

[Xtomjames]

As a GM I'll tell that most templates without an LA really shouldn't be used for player characters (this has already been said) however in some instances with 3.0 templates LA's aren't given at all even if they're meant for PCs.

There is a 3.0 to 3.5 conversion manual that exists and a few other sources that explain ways of determining LA.

The easiest thing to do is as follows:
If a template grant's Hit Dice the LA is equal to one less than the total Hit Dice granted.

All of the following increase total LA, round down to the nearest whole number.

DR (Any) +1
SR (Any) +1
Ability score increase: +1/3
Any SU +1/2
Any EX +1/3
Spell Like Abilities: +1/3 per level of equivalent spell.
Size Category change from medium to large -1/3
Size Category change from medium to small +1/3
Any size category change past the already stated +1/2
Change to non-standard type (ie Extraplaner Traits, Outsider Traits etc) +1
Change of HD per step Positive (ie from d6 to d8) +1/2, in the negative (d8 to d6) -1/2.
Natural Armor bonus: +1/4 per point.

For example if we take a look at say the Lycanthrope template.

Size and hit dice don't change, they gain the SU ability of shapechange that's a +1/2, gain a Natural armor of +2 so that's a +1/2 LA, the Hit Dice changes with animal form this is a +1 (this is from ability score increases), DR 2/silver grants a +1 to the LA, and the special attacks (EX) and Lycanthropic empathy (EX) grant another +1. However we negate the last two Extraordinary abilities as they're part of the Shapechange SU, Total LA is +3 (just as it says in the MM 176).

I hope this helps.

Edit: Another method is to treat the CR as the level adjustment, if a CR is provided.

[Greenish]

If a template grant's Hit Dice the LA is equal to one less than the total Hit Dice granted.Why? That's basically double dipping for ECL.



Size Category change from medium to large -1/3Becoming Large is worth negative adjustment? Wut.

[herrhauptmann]

Why? That's basically double dipping for ECL.

Becoming Large is worth negative adjustment? Wut.

I'm with you on that.
Large is a disadvantage for casters, but an advantage for melee (especially if they get extra strength boosts). Small is an advantage for creatures not meant to be bruisers or damage sponges. So they're really situational.

Also, some templates are 'DM only' because the creatures with the template tend to be antagonists. Such as the Shade template from FRCS. You're not likely to find very many Shade humans/elves/dwarves etc wandering the realms doing good deeds as a sword for hire.

[Talya]

Do you actually mean "Level Adjustment: --" or "Level Adjustment: +0"?

[Coidzor]

Also, some templates are 'DM only' because the creatures with the template tend to be antagonists. Such as the Shade template from FRCS. You're not likely to find very many Shade humans/elves/dwarves etc wandering the realms doing good deeds as a sword for hire.

Sort of like Drow, Duergar, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Dragons, no?

Hmm, this reminds me. Bone Creature and Corpse Creature, other than basically giving them either the same DR as skeletons/zombies or a slightly stronger version thereof, how do they hold up? Weak LA+1s?

[herrhauptmann]

Sort of like Drow, Duergar, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Dragons, no?

Yes and no.
I blame Salvatore for so many CG drow wandering the world. But most of those others are from races as or more populous than humans, so it's plausible that a few would go against the norm and have a different alignment. (And survive long enough do so).
But the citizens of Shade, there's what, 5000 of them? Enough to populate 1 floating city, if you include their thousands of magically altered slaves. It's not for nothing that the books detailing their return are from the series "Return of the Archwizards."
Aside from those 5000 survivors of ancient Netheril, there's how many people with the template?

[Coidzor]

Yes and no.
I blame Salvatore for so many CG drow wandering the world. But most of those others are from races as or more populous than humans, so it's plausible that a few would go against the norm and have a different alignment. (And survive long enough do so).
But the citizens of Shade, there's what, 5000 of them? Enough to populate 1 floating city, if you include their thousands of magically altered slaves. It's not for nothing that the books detailing their return are from the series "Return of the Archwizards."
Aside from those 5000 survivors of ancient Netheril, there's how many people with the template?

So? What's population got to do with it? Are we supposed to never play as royals either?

Are we supposed to never play exceptional characters? Because if that's the case we should never reach level 6.

No, I very much doubt that rationale is a good one. The fact that it's remotely plausible as an explanation is just one more thing to sigh about in regards to the devs.

[herrhauptmann]

What's level 6 got ot do with anything?

And population? I'm referring to the odds of someone going against the grain with an unusual alignment (and job).

[Coidzor]

What's level 6 got ot do with anything?

That's when, by just the skill system alone, a character becomes superhuman.


And population? I'm referring to the odds of someone going against the grain with an unusual alignment (and job).

Yes, population. And yet we can play succubus paladins despite being literally made out of evil and chaos.

[Xtomjames]

Why? That's basically double dipping for ECL.

Becoming Large is worth negative adjustment? Wut.

It's not double dipping the ECL, 3.0 templates are more powerful than 3.5 templates in certain respects, in a case where the 3.0 template doesn't list an LA the LA is presumed usually to be one less than the HD. Remember that (except in an XPless campaign ECL really doesn't matter much).

The reason why becoming large (taking a step up from medium) get's a -1/3 is because of it's disadvantages. It means most of the Small creatures can hit you much easierly, you can't fit into normal houses and buildings easily, you take a -1 to your AC and you gain only a +2 to +4 to strength (except for certain creature types that gain more). You gain negatives to Dex and often to Charisma. You'll also note that any further step beyond the one step from Medium gives a +1/2 because the advantages out weigh the negatives.

(I'll note here because a couple of you I'm sure will go, wait a minute being small has negatives too, but really except for a drop in strength and speed you don't usually have a loss to charisma and often you get a boost to Dex, you still fit into most of the normal world, the bonuses to AC are also higher (+1 from size and added bonuses from your Dex increases).)

[Flickerdart]

It's not double dipping the ECL, 3.0 templates are more powerful than 3.5 templates in certain respects, in a case where the 3.0 template doesn't list an LA the LA is presumed usually to be one less than the HD. Remember that (except in an XPless campaign ECL really doesn't matter much).
[citation needed]

[Urpriest]

Most Medium melee want to be Large (from Expansion et al) for the reach, increased weapon dice, and check bonuses, not for the Strength. And if being Large changes ability scores, that will be taken into account in the rest of your formula.

[Xtomjames]

I'm aware, however becoming larger has more problems than becoming smaller. I'm taking into account the negatives which out weigh the positives when becoming larger. Further a the -1/3 doesn't get subtracted when you go to huge, instead you just gain a +1/2. Being large really doesn't do much and is more of a hindrance to a PC than it is to a general monster. Once you're in the huge category or giant category your character can't consider those potential hindrances that a large creature might.

HD versus LA

"Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do."

What does this mean, this means if you have an LA which stacks with normal class levels they also represent Hit Dice gained. In 3.5 and 3.0 these weren't always equal or on a 1 to 1 basis.

LA is defined both on abilities and Hit Dice count so as a General Rule of Thumb HD and LA should either be 1 to 1 or the LA should be one less than the Hit Dice.

You're essentially treating the monster's racial class and racial levels as class levels. This rule is found in the sections on creating and enhancing monsters in most of the Monster Manuals the DMG and in a few other books which break down certain monster classes into monster levels for the purposes of making LA and HD less problematic. See the Planar Hand Book on Archon Hounds.

[Flickerdart]

HD versus LA

"Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do."

What does this mean, this means if you have an LA which stacks with normal class levels they also represent Hit Dice gained. In 3.5 and 3.0 these weren't always equal or on a 1 to 1 basis.

LA is defined both on abilities and Hit Dice count so as a General Rule of Thumb HD and LA should either be 1 to 1 or the LA should be one less than the Hit Dice.

You're essentially treating the monster's racial class and racial levels as class levels. This rule is found in the sections on creating and enhancing monsters in most of the Monster Manuals the DMG and in a few other books which break down certain monster classes into monster levels for the purposes of making LA and HD less problematic. See the Planar Hand Book on Archon Hounds.
You, uh, realize that the passage you quote has nothing to do with LA? It doesn't even mention it, at all, anywhere. What the passage is talking about is that a creature's hit dice is equal to its class HD (Fighter 2) and its racial HD (Monstrous Humanoid 4). LA has nothing to do with hit dice. It explicitly doesn't add them.

[ThiefInTheNight]

That's when, by just the skill system alone, a character becomes superhuman.
It's really more like level 1. PC class levels alone make it trivial to do that.

[Urpriest]

I'm aware, however becoming larger has more problems than becoming smaller. I'm taking into account the negatives which out weigh the positives when becoming larger. Further a the -1/3 doesn't get subtracted when you go to huge, instead you just gain a +1/2. Being large really doesn't do much and is more of a hindrance to a PC than it is to a general monster. Once you're in the huge category or giant category your character can't consider those potential hindrances that a large creature might.

HD versus LA

"Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do."

What does this mean, this means if you have an LA which stacks with normal class levels they also represent Hit Dice gained. In 3.5 and 3.0 these weren't always equal or on a 1 to 1 basis.

LA is defined both on abilities and Hit Dice count so as a General Rule of Thumb HD and LA should either be 1 to 1 or the LA should be one less than the Hit Dice.

You're essentially treating the monster's racial class and racial levels as class levels. This rule is found in the sections on creating and enhancing monsters in most of the Monster Manuals the DMG and in a few other books which break down certain monster classes into monster levels for the purposes of making LA and HD less problematic. See the Planar Hand Book on Archon Hounds.

First: If the penalties of being Large outweighed the bonuses, being Large (not Huge) wouldn't be a standard melee combo. Again, you have to explain why melee constantly seek out Large size despite it being according to you on balance worse.

Second: You need to read my monster guide, in my sig. Basically, you don't understand the difference between LA and ECL because you didn't pay attention when 3.5 came out and are stuck in a pre-Savage Species mindset. ECL=HD+LA=level with respect to XP is the rule.

[Greenish]

It's not double dipping the ECL, 3.0 templates are more powerful than 3.5 templates in certain respects, in a case where the 3.0 template doesn't list an LA the LA is presumed usually to be one less than the HD.That is double dipping.


Remember that (except in an XPless campaign ECL really doesn't matter much).Except that class features tend to be stronger than what you gain from LA/RHD, and having LA at all means you'll have lower skill ranks and less HD than others.


The reason why becoming large (taking a step up from medium) get's a -1/3 is because of it's disadvantages.None of which are large enough to matter in comparison for the gains.


You gain negatives to Dex and often to Charisma.Those would be separately accounted, so counting them as disadvantages of size doesn't really make sense.