Am I a bad healer?

[theMycon]

My group spends most of the battle with 3/4ths of us bloodied; and usually at least 1 person goes unconscious. Often repeatedly. I think we've had two battles, ever, which did not seem like life-or-death situations where a TPK was a reasonable outcome. I feel like, as leader/healer, it's my job to prevent it, but I frankly have no idea how.

HOWEVER: I think our DM loves that and I know our striker loves that. We are pretty much always one player short, and the DM doesn't tone down the encounters.
One of those "not so serious" battles was our 4 level-5's up against 3 level-9 skirmishers; which got a surprise round on us while we were split up. Monsters almost always outnumber us; and usually either bloody us with 2 hits OR spam ongoing damage. We always have at least 1 character bloody before my first turn, and it's uncommon (not rare) to have two bloodied or one unconscious before I move.
Also, our DM loves condition spamming, especially AoE condition spamming. ESPECIALLY ongoing damage condition stacking.

Is 4.0 supposed to be this brutal, or am I just a bad healer?

(Gnome Bard, smattering of paladin powers to help him buff/debuff. I doubt my character is the weakness here; I consider myself a decent optimizer and tactician. He very rarely needs healing/has only gone unconscious AFTER a battle, from ongoing damage & bad rolls. If nothing else, I can make sure every attack that hits him involves the enemy making a strategic decision where there are consequences either way.
For reference of my optimization-fu, I turned a 3.5 monk into the "unstoppable melee god" who outdamaged the rest of the party/set off literal and tactical traps to minimal consequence, and barely slowed down after a disjunction & going permanently blinded.)

[Hidden Sanity]

Not really, I'd have to watch the actual combat to be certian, but I doubt that this is your 'fault'... Still, you might want to remind your party about the exisitance of the second-wind power.

[Asklepian]

I'll just go ahead and disclaim that all of this is just within my admittedly limited knowledge, so I don't have to add 'I think' onto the end of every phrase.

Bard's aren't even in competition for the top spot on healing among Leaders. I've heard they're good at enabling, though, which is considered the better strategy. So you have that going for you.

Now, as far as the encounter goes... Three level 9 standards is a 1200 experience fight, which for a four-person party makes it level 7. That's considered hard by the base guidelines, and if you use the new math in my experience it can be pretty damn hard. Especially when the monsters themselves are level+4. They're going to hit you often and do nasty damage when they do.

If that is considered easy in your group... no, it's not surprising that other encounters are devastating. Not to me, anyways. I'm sure someone will come along in a moment and explain how their group always fights at level+6 and spends most of the fight yawning at the lack of threat. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I'll add that an individual being optimized does much less for the group, in my experience, than it did in 3.5. One person usually isn't going to make or break the fight all by themselves, it's much more of a team game. You could be doing just fine, but if your defender's not locking down threats and so on then the party's going to get hurt.

[Mando Knight]

Looks like your DM just likes throwing out harder encounters for you. Nothing too wrong with that... unless he's always throwing out guys 3+ levels higher than you.

Double-check your conditions: anything that does the same thing won't stack (but you'll still have to watch their timers individually since they'll stick around until they expire). This is especially important with ongoing damage: you can't take ongoing damage of the same type more than once per turn. If three enemies decide to give you Ongoing 5 Fire (Save Ends), on your turn you only take a total of 5 fire damage and roll three times to see if you end any of those ongoing fire conditions.

[erikun]

It actually sounds like you are doing rather well, overall. Due to the healing surge mechanics, most fights are supposed to be challanging, and I've found that a few bad tactical decisions can leave the characters in a lot of trouble. (Getting ambushed isn't really a tactical decision, but puts you in a similar position.)

As long as you are using those healing abilities and putting your encounter (if not daily) powers to good effect, you will be "doing your job". I'm not quite that familiar with how the Bard works, but my impression was that they grant bonuses to hit/bonus damage to attacks, and so you'd be more focused on killing the threat than increasing the defenses of your allies. If that's the case, they you should be judging how well this bonus damage is helping to see how you are doing in the party.

[MeeposFire]

The game is actually designed where the battles should be tough and that you want to make it dramatic and have bloodied PCs often. PCs should be knocked unconscious a good number of times but death should be rare. Notice how easy it is to bring people back into a fight. This was done on purpose. This is in contrast from before where battles tend more towards fine and dead.

[theMycon]

New approach: Say I just hit level 6 & have 2 free feats (one new, one retrained). If I am keeping "improved majestic word" and the paladin multiclass feat, what would you recommend?
(anything not-psychic and not-dragon)



Bard's aren't even in competition for the top spot on healing among Leaders. I've heard they're good at enabling, though, which is considered the better strategy. So you have that going for you.
This, I'll absolutely agree with. They seem out-of-the-box good, but not great, healers. However, they can debuff and spam Temp HP like nobody's business, and it's almost forced upon you to have one "that hit never happened" power.

Also, given the rules on acquiring magic items*, I've considered throwing myself into a river just to re-roll a similar character with appropriate wealth-by-level. That would up all my defenses, my healing, and allow the same accuracy while freeing up a feat.


You could be doing just fine, but if your defender's not locking down threats and so on then the party's going to get hurt.
Honestly, our defender is the one character I would say isn't doing a great job. He's OK, but often forgoes his minor action because using it makes him the more appealing target. And, while his AC is the best of the party, in other defenses and HP he's essentially average.


Double-check your conditions: This might be an issue- there' a disagreement over "ongoing damage from the same source"- does (Example) 5 ongoing acid from the Krythik Brood Queen's spit and 5 ongoing acid from the Green Dragon's breath stack? The DM feels they're not from the same, or even related sources, so they should stack. The party feels they're the same type, and should not. The DM usually relents once he realized things are going bad, then reverts the next session.


they grant bonuses to hit/bonus damage to attacks Oh, if only I had the time...
I can throw minor to-hit bonuses for the party, but I do much better at lowering defenses on the enemies.

*
All items are sold at 20%, and disenchanted at 20%. Common magic items can, after a skill challenge, be bought at 125%, role-play bargains down. Uncommon and rare magic items are drops only; but we have a "wish list" to let the DM know what we want.

[MeeposFire]

If your friends live and you win the encounter you are doing your job.

Ongoing damage of the exact same type do not stack so your DM is wrong unless I am forgetting something. Now if you have 5 acid and you get hit by ongoing 5 acid/cold then they stack.

What class is your defender?

Sounds like you could also use some save granters.

[Hidden Sanity]

Bards have moderate healing power, although depending on the precise flavour of bard, they may shift up to near the front for healers. Or become specialized in positioning or in manipulating die-rolls to your parties favour.

As a bard you obviously get moderate healing and I think I'll skip how to use that... however, as a bard you also gain access to ally movement abilities and many bards miss how to use that; remember, pulling an ally out of a sticky situation or one where they're getting flanked can prevent a lot of pain(Or a ranged ally out of melee); and putting an ally where they can get flanking or better target things can make enemies dead faster; which also reduces incoming damage. Most bards get good positioning so try and maximize advantage from that.

Also: Shout of Triumph is an awesome daily on tough solo fights.

[Asklepian]

Ongoing damage of the exact same type do not stack so your DM is wrong unless I am forgetting something. Now if you have 5 acid and you get hit by ongoing 5 acid/cold then they stack..

This man has the right of it, except for the last part. To my knowledge, this would actually end up with you taking 5 acid and 2 cold, since when you have a 'damage type and damage type' power, it deals half and half.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that?

Also, out of curiosity, did you actually fight a Kruthik Hive Lord and a Green Dragon simultaneously?

[Mando Knight]

This might be an issue- there' a disagreement over "ongoing damage from the same source"- does (Example) 5 ongoing acid from the Krythik Brood Queen's spit and 5 ongoing acid from the Green Dragon's breath stack? The DM feels they're not from the same, or even related sources, so they should stack. The party feels they're the same type, and should not. The DM usually relents once he realized things are going bad, then reverts the next session.

Same-type Ongoing Damage explicitly does not stack. See PHB 1 p278, fourth bullet point in the Ongoing Damage box.

Asklepian: actually, damage typing was errata'd soon after publication. The elemental damage is not split, it's all acid-cold or radiant-fire or what-have-you, and you need to resist all the applied types to resist any of the damage.

[Asklepian]

Well, I'll be. My players have been getting off light. It's all mixed damage from here on out! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... ahem. :smallredface: As I was saying, listen to Meepos. He's on his game.

[LaZodiac]

I'd like to point out that your allies are bloodied and sometimes unconcious, not dying horribly. In a sense, that is proof enough that you are a good healer. I do admit that the DM seem's like he is gunning for you guys, and if you have an issue with that I'd suggest bringing it up, but if you don't mind it you don't have to.

[theMycon]

Also, out of curiosity, did you actually fight a Kruthik Hive Lord and a Green Dragon simultaneously?

No, I'd just forgotten the name of the other Kruthik Creatures we fought. The (Only a young adult) green dragon was back at level 2 or 3; the most recent fight was 1 Kruthik hive lord, 3 adults, and 8 minions.


Shout of Triumph is an awesome daily on tough solo fights.(I'm assuming you mean the "HP pinata" daily? Shout of Triumph is an awesome encounter power, but on solo's it's essentially useless.)


what class is your defender
Not sure, it works with stances and auras, and his being a dwarf overrides all other distinguishing characteristics of him.

[MeeposFire]

Sounds like knight which can work well with a bard. Make sure you keep him adjacent to enemies, the more the better.

[Nu]

Remember, you're not a "healer" class, you're a "leader" class. Your job includes keeping your allies up, yes, but more to the point, you're looking to enable them with your buffs and debuffs to bring down the monsters more quickly.

Ask yourself: are the monsters falling fast enough? Can you drop a monster or two every round with a decent nova? Note that burning down an enemy or two by expending your most valuable resources right at the start of a fight will go a long ways towards cutting down on the amount of damage an enemy group can put out.

In any case, as long as no one has died I don't think you're screwing up too badly as a healer. It is not that uncommon for a character to go unconscious a time or two per battle, particularly with the third generation monsters (MM3, Dark Sun, MV, and onwards). With that said, make sure your allies are investing in powers that keep them up as well, as this will help and almost every class has some option or another here (Wizard using Shield, Ranger using Invigorating Stride, Barbarians generating temporary HP for themselves, Defenders investing in the Swift Recovery feat, etc. etc. etc.).

[Hidden Sanity]

(I'm assuming you mean the "HP pinata" daily? Shout of Triumph is an awesome encounter power, but on solo's it's essentially useless.)

You are compleatly correct, got a wire crossed in my brain somewhere...

[tcrudisi]

You never said what kind of bard you were, so suggesting feats is very difficult. Regardless, I'd go for expertise. If you are fighting monsters that much higher level than you, I bet you are missing a lot. That extra +1 can make a huge difference.

Also, the Superior line of feats would be very good. Superior Fort gives you some resistance against ongoing damage and Superior Will gives you resistance against daze and stun. If ongoing damage is being used almost every encounter, Sup. Fort would be a good pick-up for everyone.

[theMycon]

Apparently the rest of the party was having similar feelings, and felt bad that the longest-running party member had about 1/3rd what they did in Magic Items. So we had a discussion with the DM, who then revised magic item creation/buying rules (they're now "book rules" rather than requiring a 7:1 trade in to get new ones.), and the party bought me the "enchant/disenchant magic items" rituals. Short version, everyone has +1 to most defenses, the striker/defender have +2 to weapon damage rolls, and I have a +3 to most of my defenses, bringing them from "worst of the party" to "average".

As the whole session was spent talking about food, MTG, magic items, local events and the new Bill & Ted movie, we did not get a chance to test this in combat.



You are compleatly correct, got a wire crossed in my brain somewhere...

S'alright, I forget what it's called, and I used it last night. We just all call it "HP pinata" and stick a piece of green plastic under the monster to tell us who to hit.


Feats!
Well, Superior Fortitude would be awesome, it sounds. Though, I'm probably the only one other than the defender who qualifies; and he already has it. And although fort is my worst save, I'm GOOD at making sure the enemy always has to think before trying to hit me.
I was actually considering retraining away from Implement Expertise; given a bard has no trouble picking what defense to go for, I'm actually the most common hitter of the party. Yes, our Striker is a Good Man- he's my old GM and can do a metric asston of damage when he hits, and he can pull enemies closer to him. But he has a hard time hitting will & fortitude. (Yes, I have "Guiding Strike" and a songblade. I can lower defenses if I'm forced into melee. I prefer to stay out of melee, as my AC is terrible and the rest of my defenses are tolerable.)

[Hidden Sanity]

That power get's really nice with attack-granting powers like Blunder, ect.

[PhallicWarrior]

Sounds like what I do with a particular group of players. They don't meet often and love the tactical combat aspect more than roleplaying, so when we do meet I turn up the difficulty of the encounters to keep their excitement up. It's fairly easy to do, especially the way your GM seems to, by sending you guys up against higher-level foes. Likewise, it should be easy to get him to tone it down a bit if the group agrees. But as long as you guys have fun, it shouldn't be much of a problem anyway.

[Foeofthelance]

Actually, if you're dedicated to being the party's healer and don't mind sacrificing the feats, your bard can become one of the best healers in the game. Since bards aren't limited to just one multiclass path, you can multiclass into every other Leader class, gaining each of their healing powers in turn, though admittedly at once per day instead of per encounter. That gives you -

Cleric - Healing Word
Warlord - Inspiring Word
Artificer - Healing Infusion
Ardent - Ardent Surge
Runepriest - Rune of Mending

You also count as each of those classes for the purposes of taking further feats to augment those powers, such as Rune of Hope for bonus temporary HP, or Potent Restorables adding an extra +2 to the artificer heal. Such a build will pretty much consume your entire character, but if you feel that's what you need to do, then that's what you need to do.

[tcrudisi]

Cleric - Healing Word
Warlord - Inspiring Word
Artificer - Healing Infusion
Ardent - Ardent Surge
Runepriest - Rune of Mending

All of that (good) info and not a word about the Shaman? For two feats, you can get an extra heal per encounter. It's a much better deal than spending two feats to get 2 heals/day. I don't remember what the names of the feats are, but they are out there.

[Foeofthelance]

All of that (good) info and not a word about the Shaman? For two feats, you can get an extra heal per encounter. It's a much better deal than spending two feats to get 2 heals/day. I don't remember what the names of the feats are, but they are out there.

I knew there was a class I missing from PHB 2! For the life of me I just did not notice it on the list of multiclass feats.

[Nu]

All of that (good) info and not a word about the Shaman? For two feats, you can get an extra heal per encounter. It's a much better deal than spending two feats to get 2 heals/day. I don't remember what the names of the feats are, but they are out there.

Spirit Talker and Mending Spirit.