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XenoGeno
2011-09-17, 12:28 AM
So, I have a problem with some of my players. They have a tendency to only read the name of something they take for a character (depending on the system, this could be a class feature, a feat, a superpower, etc). However, the actual description is often fairly different. For instance, last week I had a player in Mutants & Masterminds who took Power Attack as a feat even though it couldn't actually do anything for him. Another player was completely misusing a power, and I was just sort of letting it slide until she realized on her own. I'm giving them until the session after next to re-spec there characters, but is there someway to make sure they actually know what they're doing that does not involve sitting down and making the character from the ground up with them, since my ability to do that is limited?

Dsurion
2011-09-17, 01:01 AM
The best solution may to pretend to be draconian about it at first. When they try to use their special abilities they didn't read, despite you telling them otherwise, inform them then, again, how it doesn't do anything.

Some people don't take warnings and need to see first hand...

XenoGeno
2011-09-17, 01:20 AM
Normally I'd be all for that, but at least one of them (the power attack guy) has been rather... on edge, lately, to an extent I haven't really seen since high school (I think he's taking organic chemistry this semester, so I can't really blame him for being high strung, but...). I worry that being too draconian would end poorly.

Crossblade
2011-09-17, 01:23 AM
Assist them with character creation?

Xefas
2011-09-17, 01:35 AM
Maybe your players would be more comfortable in a more rules-light system, with more unified rules that would be easier to remember. Not every group is going to work well at the super high-density end of the rules spectrum with stuff like GURPS, D&D, M&M, and so on, and there's nothing wrong with that.

If you want a suggestion, FATE-based games are not as super-light as stuff like Wushu or Risus, but everything revolves around one or two easy-to-remember mechanics. Everything from your character's special traits, to the penalty incurred by poor lighting, to grappling, to spellcasting all function as "Aspects". Once your players learn how an Aspect works, not only do they grasp 90% of the system, but they now grasp 90% of all FATE systems.

Is it the best game? No. But it's pretty damn good. And once your group has played, say, a High Fantasy Fate game, you can whip out a Sci-Fi Fate game, or a Superheroes Fate game, or a PI Noir Fate game, or whatever, the next weekend, spend five minutes telling them what's different, and play.

(It's also free.)

If you do want to go lighter, Primetime Adventures is the king of light games. If your players can't remember "Draw a card, high card wins", then there's no hope.

XenoGeno
2011-09-18, 05:10 PM
I can't assist them completely with character creation due to time restraints. They can text me whenever they need help, but they rarely do.

They also understand the core mechanics of every game system we play, and it's not that they're incapable of understanding. They just have a tendency to read a name or fluff description, and make assumptions. Sometimes it winds up being a misreading, but other times they just make stuff up whole cloth (usually a result of them switching from a belief in general RP conventions to desiring real-life physics). The favorite game of one of the players is Exalted, which I personally don't understand the rules of, so yeah. Rules-light is not what they want, I don't think.

Tengu_temp
2011-09-18, 06:29 PM
Be open about it. Tell them to read the descriptions of their powers and feats to make sure they do what they think they do. And if they complain about it... Honestly, I think that if you can't even put that much effort to read what your abilities do, you're not being very respectful to the DM.

Toliudar
2011-09-18, 07:33 PM
It seems clear that your players really don't care about the mechanics of the game, but are more likely to want to focus on the social interaction and the roleplay. Maybe you could try a looser rule-of-thumb style of rules adjudication for a while. If they start asking for a firmer understanding of the rules, you know you've reached a limit.

Steward
2011-09-18, 07:48 PM
That's a good idea but it might get a little complicated. If a player thinks 'Natural Spell' means that their level 5 Fighter can cast Magic Missile at will, how do you adjudicate something like that? If the players have strange ideas of what their abilities / feats / abilities do, it can be challenging for even a loose DM to figure out what they're trying to do.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-09-18, 11:29 PM
"Hey guys, fluff is all well and good, and I'm more than happy to accommodate it. But you really need to read through the actual mechanics for whatever you found that sounds awesome, cause fluff and mechanics don't always add up. Now if you find something that sounds interesting but you don't understand the mechanics for, or you like the mechanics but not the fluff, talk to me and we'll work something out, but please don't just assume cause the people who wrote this stuff didn't always know what they were doing, ok?"

If that doesn't work have them explain what they want to do and what feats/class features/whatever they have to do it with, and if it doesn't add up simply tell them "Sorry but that's not how that works, what do you do?".

Really if they don't want to read through everything that's fine, but they should at least read through the rules for their own character.

XenoGeno
2011-09-20, 01:37 PM
"Hey guys, fluff is all well and good, and I'm more than happy to accommodate it. But you really need to read through the actual mechanics for whatever you found that sounds awesome, cause fluff and mechanics don't always add up. Now if you find something that sounds interesting but you don't understand the mechanics for, or you like the mechanics but not the fluff, talk to me and we'll work something out, but please don't just assume cause the people who wrote this stuff didn't always know what they were doing, ok?"

If that doesn't work have them explain what they want to do and what feats/class features/whatever they have to do it with, and if it doesn't add up simply tell them "Sorry but that's not how that works, what do you do?".

Really if they don't want to read through everything that's fine, but they should at least read through the rules for their own character.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking I'm going to have to do. I don't want to play a rules-light game, as I don't enjoy them as a player, and doubt I'd like GMing that. Scheduling issues with other players means that after this session we'll be taking at least a week off, so I might have the time to work with these people and make sure they understand their characters. If that doesn't work, I'm not sure what I'll do next, other than probably end the campaign and not invite them to the next one.

Gnaeus
2011-09-20, 01:56 PM
I give my 5 year old a treat when she reads. It seems effective. YMMV.

hiryuu
2011-09-20, 02:03 PM
So, I have a problem with some of my players. They have a tendency to only read the name of something they take for a character (depending on the system, this could be a class feature, a feat, a superpower, etc). However, the actual description is often fairly different. For instance, last week I had a player in Mutants & Masterminds who took Power Attack as a feat even though it couldn't actually do anything for him. Another player was completely misusing a power, and I was just sort of letting it slide until she realized on her own. I'm giving them until the session after next to re-spec there characters, but is there someway to make sure they actually know what they're doing that does not involve sitting down and making the character from the ground up with them, since my ability to do that is limited?

How does Power Attack not do anything for him? Does he not have any powers that make attack rolls? If so, you might have a whole other problem on your hands.

XenoGeno
2011-09-20, 08:26 PM
How does Power Attack not do anything for him? Does he not have any powers that make attack rolls? If so, you might have a whole other problem on your hands.

I don't know about other editions, but PA in 2e can't raise the damage above the power level cap, and his attacks are already at the threshold.

hiryuu
2011-09-20, 08:43 PM
I don't know about other editions, but PA in 2e can't raise the damage above the power level cap, and his attacks are already at the threshold.

Yes it can. In 2e/Revised, any of the -X/+X feats work just like trade-offs (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=154376#p154376).

XenoGeno
2011-09-20, 09:32 PM
Well, egg on my face, I'll give him credit on that one. :smallredface: Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I think we house-ruled it back when we first started playing a couple years ago (FWIW, this player has been playing with us all this time, but it's his first time he's played a character who's taken the feat). Still, that was one of the smaller issues (and some of those we looked up during the actual game, so I'm certain about those).

For example, the party was fighting an anthropomorphic snake person. He has the Groundslam power feat on his super-strength, and when he uses it, everyone BUT the villain fails their check to resist tripping. He complains that tremorsense gives a weakness to ground vibrations, which he should know since he has that power himself. I explain that it doesn't carry with it that weakness, and the villain doesn't even have that power anyway. Next session, he's getting teased in-character, and he snaps and complains that it's not his fault he has "more real life ranks in Knowledge: life sciences" than I do. Because the pompadoured, armed and legged snakeman who can mindcontrol people by singing "Jailhouse Rock" is clearly scientifically accurate. :smallannoyed:

Another situation is when he had a small hissy-fit over what Assessment did. He tried to use it to figure out what specific powers and ranks in said powers a villain had.

A third situation is when the entire group had to inform him that no, you can't use Sense Motive to determine exactly who the terrorist is going to attack next.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-20, 09:33 PM
Well, don't let them play barbarians for one. No one ever spends two skill points on literacy.:smallwink:

hiryuu
2011-09-20, 09:43 PM
For example, the party was fighting an anthropomorphic snake person. He has the Groundslam power feat on his super-strength, and when he uses it, everyone BUT the villain fails their check to resist tripping. He complains that tremorsense gives a weakness to ground vibrations, which he should know since he has that power himself. I explain that it doesn't carry with it that weakness, and the villain doesn't even have that power anyway. Next session, he's getting teased in-character, and he snaps and complains that it's not his fault he has "more real life ranks in Knowledge: life sciences" than I do.

Hm. I see what you mean.


Because the pompadoured, armed and legged snakeman who can mindcontrol people by singing "Jailhouse Rock"

*tears in my eyes* That's... that's the best villain ever.


Another situation is when he had a small hissy-fit over what Assessment did. He tried to use it to figure out what specific powers and ranks in said powers a villain had.

A third situation is when the entire group had to inform him that no, you can't use Sense Motive to determine exactly who the terrorist is going to attack next.

Wait, no, what?

XenoGeno
2011-09-20, 10:29 PM
*tears in my eyes* That's... that's the best villain ever.

Everyone agreed, even the player who thought he should've had tremorsense and a weakness to earthquakes. Personally though, I think The King Cobra is tied for second best of my villains with Coldilocks (and her henchmen, The Three Polar Bears). My best is Audrey Heartburn. I made a player physically cringe with her. :smallbiggrin:

And yeah. The power attack thing was the correction he accepted most readily, actually. I need to let him know that he was actually right, and as long as he doesn't combine it with All-Out Attack, he can use it like he's technically supposed to (trading defense for damage seems a little uneven to me, so that'll probably be the new house rule). Maybe if I grant him that, he'll accept the other criticisms more readily? Hopefully?

GungHo
2011-09-21, 02:17 PM
I give my 5 year old a treat when she reads. It seems effective. YMMV.
That's not as cute when they're 30.

BlueInc
2011-09-21, 02:23 PM
The King Cobra

I was wondering where the pun came in. "Elvisssssssssss?"

Chilingsworth
2011-09-21, 02:29 PM
If you get desperate enough, you could have your players watch the South Park episode "HumanCentiPad." It's about what might happen when you don't read things as throughly as you should.