View Full Version : Gestalt melee Warlock/Beguiler
Half-orc Bard
2011-09-17, 02:40 AM
Hello playgrounders, Im playing in a gestalt game and I want to play a melee Warlock/Beguiler. I've decided I only want one piece of cheese and thats hellfire warlock with a one level binder dip. I was wondering what PrCs would be good, what feats would, and how to stop me from being squishy ugh I hate d6 hit dice
ill mainly be using eldritch glaive in combat and my beguiler spells for non combat encounters.
its levels 6/6
(I'd also like to thank the people who helped me with my Druid/Wizard build, but that was overpowered and too complicated)
Xtomjames
2011-09-17, 07:03 AM
Honestly I'd say if you're in a gestalt game don't do a warlock beguiler combo, it's not worth it. Rather do a fighter class warlock combo. You might not have as many spells to work with but you'll be better off in the melee and you can be long range medium range short range with the Warlock's abilities. That or go 12 levels of warlock no gestalt. When you track into the Hellfire Warlock class take craft tattoo, craft a mundane tattoo and imbue the tattoo with greater restoration with a permanent spell contingency trigger. So whenever you use hellfire your tattoo automatically goes off restoring your Con score.
You'll find a Lawful Evil Warlock gestalt Monk to be very effective, Ranger Warlock is also a good combo, and if you're really wanting to be broken go Druid Warlock.
You'll find a Lawful Evil Warlock gestalt Monk to be very effective, Ranger Warlock is also a good combo, and if you're really wanting to be broken go Druid Warlock.
Ranger/Warlock Gestalt gets full bab, all good saves, 6 skills, d8 hit die. :smalltongue: Not sure how well the combat styles would serve you. Could you use a Eldritch Glaive/Armor Spike combo TWF?
Xtomjames
2011-09-17, 07:52 AM
Well if it's a gestalt character it gets more than 6 skills (as you get full skill lists from both classes). Unfortunately eldritch glaive can't work with armor spike as a TWF combo. However a nifty trick is to use hideous blow with spiked armor and the do a full round attack using a slam attack doing damage via eldritch blast with the armor and then striking with two weapons in hand.
If you go the Monk route hideous blow is stacked on top of your unarmed strike damage and if you take quicken spell like ability you can do two eldritch blasts in battle three times a day. Further Eldritch glaive would be considered a monk weapon for the purposes of flurry of blows.
Gaining the extra speed and AC from the Monk class is also a bonus. You also get similar saves to the Ranger Warlock combo.
Randomguy
2011-09-17, 09:19 AM
I would say go ranged Warlock/beguiler. I can see the appeal: Beguilers are fairly awesome, but suck at doing direct damage. Meanwhile, warlocks can eldritch blast all day long, but can't get very many tricks. But you've got two d6 classes, both made for mostly ranged combat, with medium BAB, can only wear light armour and have one good save: Making an effective melee character will be tough. Also, it's impossible to gish with beguiler.
Either way, get invocations that don't need saving throws, since your charisma probably isn't going to be that high. This means you probably won't be getting many eldtritch essence evocations.
If you're going ranged, grab one or two blast shape evocations and swap them out when you have access to better ones: beguilers don't have many area damage effects. If you're going melee, then only get one that let you add your eldritch blast to melee attacks. Eldritch glaive is supposed to be the best, since you can full attack with it and attacks are touch attacks, but that will only matter if gestalt with a class that has a decent base attack bonus.
Some invocations that let you use less beguiler spell slots might also be worth getting, like walk unseen or something to dispel magic. Remember though, at higher levels even greater invisibility is less useful, since more and more monsters get true seeing, scent and other ways to fight people.
Fell flight would be great for ranged: you can stay out of the way and blast people or cast your illusions. For melee, not so much (or not until higher levels) since at lvl 6 most things can't fly, so there's nothing to fly up to.
gorfnab
2011-09-17, 01:42 PM
Warlock // Hexblade would make an okay melee build and it would be great at debuffing. Warlock // Crusader would be awesome if you can convince your DM to allow you to use Eldritch Glaive with maneuvers. Warlock // Swordsage or Warblade is an option if you take the feat Eldritch Claws (Dragon #358) and focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers.
Half-orc Bard
2011-09-17, 01:51 PM
alright I think I will go ranged but ill still keep Eldritch Glaive so I can go into melee better so an suggestions on powers? or feats? or races?
gallagher
2011-09-17, 02:17 PM
if you want to have a bit of novelty, have the other side be bardsader.
if you somehow cant fix the con hit immediately, you have a high hit die, you have access to some great buffing ability, your high charisma will let you party face it up, and the variety that you can attack people with will turn you into a surprise.
plus, glibness is the most fun you can have with a spell, ever, for all time, the end.
alright I think I will go ranged but ill still keep Eldritch Glaive so I can go into melee better so an suggestions on powers? or feats? or races?
Id Monk it up a bit for movement and utility
Monk/Warlock 3
Fighter (or Ranger)/Warlock 2
Psionic Fist /warlock:
gallagher
2011-09-17, 06:31 PM
Id Monk it up a bit for movement and utility
Monk/Warlock 3
Fighter (or Ranger)/Warlock 2
Psionic Fist /warlock:
instead of monk, i would suggest scout. you get your movement, and the bonus die onto your already high powered eldritch die will work nicely together, you get good skill points and all the needed skills from both your classes, you get trapfinding, and some bonus feats.
kick it up a notch with swift hunter and you got yourself a stew
ShneekeyTheLost
2011-09-17, 06:49 PM
Just my two cents:
Warlock//Beguiler can be an exceedingly fun combo, if you do it right. However, you need to make a decision:
Are you going to be a master-blaster with a lot of utility and Save or Lose effects, or are you going to be a Beguiler with a pop-gun and a somewhat larger bag of tricks, and access to every cleric spell in the game?
If the former, then you're wanting to go Warlock/Binder/HFW/Legacy Champion//Beguiler
If the latter, then your're gonna want to go Warlock20//Beguiler/Rainbow Servant.
The former gives you ENORMOUS blasting damage output. To the tune of some 30d6 per shot, with the right setup. With the possibility of Glaiving it up with a Wand of Divine Power for some SICK damage output.
Plus all your regularly scheduled Beguiler shenanigans with shutting everyone down and making the opponents wonder which reality they're operating in.
The latter, on the other hand, gives you consistent damage output and some fun tricks (unlimited use DimDoor or Black Tentacles that also do cold damage just never gets old), with access to every cleric spell in the game. just be careful about the Text vs Table dispute. Some say Text over Table, and say that it's a full spellcasting progression class and that you should definitely take it. Others say the text is a typo (despite no errata on the topic) and it loses 4 caster levels, as indicated on the table. Check with your GM which one it is.
If going the former, you're wanting to use a lot of things to amp up your blast. Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Spear (for when you want to reach out and touch someone), and Beguiling Influence (because it synergizes SO well with Beguiler) for your least. Brimstone Blast (prerequisite for HFW), Eldritch Chain (multi-target!), and Beshadowed Blast (Fort or Blind) for lessers. Vitriolic (ignore SR), Bewitching (Will or Confused), and Cone (lots of targets) for greaters. Utterdark for your Dark.
This gives you:
Enormous damage potential in several types of flavors, plus a Save or Lose which keys off of Fort and one which keys off of Will, a potential negative level application on every hit, and the ability to hit multiple targets with Chain or Cone, depending on which one is better at the time (chain is half-damage vs secondary targets, Cone has possibility of friendly fire).
And, of course, all the sneaky dirty tricks of the Beguiler.
The latter should focus on invocations with utility. Eldritch Glaive is okay because you get Divine Power to make it better, but that's going to be practically the only eldritch blast affecting invocation you get.
Beguiling influence is a lot of fun to boost your bluff score with. See The Unseen is see invis and darkvision at level 1. That's pretty darn scary, when you can combo it with Glitterdust to reveal invisible foes for your party. Spiderwalk is unlimited wall-crawling. Entropic Warding makes an already hard to find Beguiler even harder to find. There's lots of toys, find ones that fit your play style.
Lesser invocations can include: Fell Flight (unlimited flight is fun), Flee The Scene (unlimited use dimension door that leaves an illusion behind is right up your alley), Voracious dispelling is a handy tool to nerf opponent casters. Walk Unseen mostly duplicates your Invisibility spell you already have, but it saves spell slots by being unlimited usage.
For Greater invocations, well... Chilling Tentacles is a really fun way to stop casters who forgot about Freedom of Movement. Also good for shutting down healers and rogue-types. Devour Magic at first seems like fun... but then you see it's touch only. Vitriolic Blast is STILL going to be mandatory so you can shoot your pop-gun at things with a high SR. You may also wish to consider Nauseating Blast as a fort save or lose on top of damage output, since most of your Beguiler spells are Will based.
As far as dark invocations go... Utterdark is still some negative-level fun, but your first one should be Dark Foresight. The spell Foresight is one of the ways Batman Wizard gets to be immune to surprise, and you get it a level BEFORE he does, AND has a way to do it an unlimited number of times per day, so it's effectively always-on. Win, double win, and triple win! Word of Changing is a Fort or Lose effect. Sure, it duplicates a 5th level spell as a Dark invocation, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still Fort or Lose, and you don't have many things off of your Beguiler list that touch Fort.
And, of course, you're a beguiler with full access to the Cleric spell list. Have fun being a Tier 1 class by accident.
Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-09-17, 07:10 PM
Definitely go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 on one side of the build. Take Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), and if necessary Heighten Spell, in order to get early access to the next higher level of spells. This will allow you to get Advanced Learning spells of level 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th, my choices would be Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. On the other side you could go Warlock 20, or possibly gain spellcasting prestige classes and apply their advancement toward Warlock. Maybe grab a level of Spellthief and take Unseen Seer.
For your race, I'd use Half Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) (XPH) Primordial Giant (SX), and start out having already bought off the +1 LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) at a cost of 3,000 xp. You may be down a level, but you'll be better off in the long run.
Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) if possible, they don't have to be taken at 1st level as long as they're gained during character creation. Get Versatile Spellcaster and if necessary Heighten Spell at 1st, and take Obtain Familiar (CA) at 3rd, with Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (DMG) as early as 3rd via your second flaw, and take Mindsight (LoM) at 6th level. Get an Imp or Quasit for your familiar (Warlock 6 plus Primordial Giant meets the caster level 7 prerequisite), it can use your UMD ranks, so give it wands of Web and Grease and some Tanglefoot Bags.
For your items, consider getting Bracers of the Entangling Blast, Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, a Mithralmist Shirt, a +1 Mithral Buckler, and a Healing Belt. Your remaining gold can be spent on various wands, scrolls, and alchemical items, spell component pouches, mundane gear, and probably a Heward's Handy Haversack. Note that you'll still start out with 6th level wealth by level.
Your invocations should be Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, either Beguiling Influence or Baleful Utterance, and Fell Flight starting out. There's no advantage to using Eldritch Glaive over a normal Eldritch Blast until your BAB is at least +6, and even then it's usually only worthwhile if you have Power Attack. Future invocations should include Beshadowed Blast, Eldritch Chain, Chilling Tentacles and Noxious Blast.
Start off fights with Glitterdust, or use Ray of Stupidity on any animals or low-intelligence opponents, since you'll be able to view everything's Int scores via Mindsight. After that you can either hit another group of enemies with Glitterdust or just spam Eldritch Blast. Beguiler spellcasting always seems to have something to solve any noncombat situation, so try not to run completely out of spells on any given day.
Can you arcane channel through the Eldritch Glaive?
Duskblade 6/Warlock 6
or
Swashbuckler 3/Warlock 3
Duskblade 3/Warlock 3
Nice...
ShneekeyTheLost
2011-09-17, 08:14 PM
Can you arcane channel through the Eldritch Glaive?
Duskblade 6/Warlock 6
or
Swashbuckler 3/Warlock 3
Duskblade 3/Warlock 3
Nice...
No, it isn't a weapon, it's a spell-like ability. Theoretically, you could almost channel your eldritch blast through your regular attack, making an actually functional version of hideous blow and rendering Eldritch Glaive obsolete in the process.
No, it isn't a weapon, it's a spell-like ability. Theoretically, you could almost channel your eldritch blast through your regular attack, making an actually functional version of hideous blow and rendering Eldritch Glaive obsolete in the process.
Eldritch Glaive says as if you were wielding a melee weapon, Arcane channel says it must be a melee weapon so I dont see it not working. Same as wielding a flame blade, I suppose.
Dusk Eclipse
2011-09-17, 09:51 PM
Eldritch Glaive says as if you were wielding a melee weapon, Arcane channel says it must be a melee weapon so I dont see it not working. Same as wielding a flame blade, I suppose.
Using Eldritch Glaive is a full round action and channelling a spell is a standard action. Hence they are not compatible.
Besides spell channelling works with spells not spell-like abilities such as eldritch glaive.
[QUOTE=Dusk Eclipse;11867756]Using Eldritch Glaive is a full round action and channelling a spell is a standard action. Hence they are not compatible.
{/QUOTE]
Oh yeah...Warlocks arent my area of expertise.
Maybe some swift hunter action on the other side?
elonin
2011-09-17, 10:42 PM
instead of monk, i would suggest scout. you get your movement, and the bonus die onto your already high powered eldritch die will work nicely together, you get good skill points and all the needed skills from both your classes, you get trapfinding, and some bonus feats.
kick it up a notch with swift hunter and you got yourself a stew
Swift Hunter wouldn't work in gestalt without a houserule, since it advances two classes.
Does abjurant champion work with warlock?
To turn this around are there any classes that pair up with scout other than the obvious swift hunter in gestalt?
ShneekeyTheLost
2011-09-18, 01:05 AM
Swift Hunter wouldn't work in gestalt without a houserule, since it advances two classes.
Does abjurant champion work with warlock? Since a warlock doesn't cast spells.. no.
To turn this around are there any classes that pair up with scout other than the obvious swift hunter in gestalt?
Well, Scout nets you some fun damage boosting, some mobility, and some skillmonkey/trapfinding ability. So, I'd pair it either with something like Wizard or Cleric for spellcasting on top of it, or pair it with Pouncebarian so they can charge, get a full attack, and get both skirmish and ubercharge multipliers at the same time.
Xtomjames
2011-09-18, 05:50 AM
I feel the best gestalt combo with Warlock is the Rogue Assassin Arcane Swordsage path.
You can focus on your long range eldritch blasts (with eldritch spear) using sneak attack and the death attacks from assassin to do more damage and the True Strike spell as a maneuver to get high level strikes out (amongst other spells like Sniper's Eyes) and greater invisibility.
Rather than over complicate the spell blasterness which is what the Beguiler/warlock combo does, build effectively using it with a class not usually associated with it.
Probably the most broken combo is the Artificer/Warlock track.
Waker
2011-09-18, 12:06 PM
Just to chime in and some something different, how about a Warlock/Totemist? The two can work together quite well, not to mention the added bonus of never "running out" of any abilities, since neither invocations or soulmelds have limited use. Bonus points for sillyness if you use Eldritch Claws (Dragon 358) or Grappling Blast (Dragon 358). The claws let you add your Eldritch Blast damage to 2 claw attacks per round. Grappling Blast though can mesh together very well with the Kraken Soulmeld though, allowing you to deal blast damage through a grapple and then applying half the damage to the next grapple check you make.
Here's my revised Build:
Scout/Warlock 1 (hooray for skills!)
Ranger/Warlock 1
Scout/Warlock 4 (you can take Swift Hunter as you bonus feat)
I'd take more Scout than Ranger because the combat styles and other abilities aren't going to do much in your build.
Maybe go Binder 3/Warlock 3 to enter Hellfire Warlock? Can you use Uncanny Trickster exploit on Hellfire Warlock (I think it is cheap, personally).
Also Dragon Devotee might be decent in this gestalt because it increases your Skirmish some more and gets you some ability boosts.
I'd assume a fair gestlat houserule for Swift Hunter et. al is that you can't have an effective level in the class higher than your class levels (Ranger/Scout 20 wouldn't have level 40 level abilities)
Any thoughts? Scout/Warlock is a great combo for gestalt. Take Expetitous Dodge, Improved Skirimish etc. too!
ShneekeyTheLost
2011-09-19, 05:18 PM
Any thoughts? Scout/Warlock is a great combo for gestalt. Take Expetitous Dodge, Improved Skirimish etc. too!
More ranger, less scout. Ranger has full BAB, Swift Hunter gives you everything you're wanting out of Scout already. Make it Scout1/Ranger1/Scout1/Rangerx on one side with Warlock on the other.
More ranger, less scout. Ranger has full BAB, Swift Hunter gives you everything you're wanting out of Scout already. Make it Scout1/Ranger1/Scout1/Rangerx on one side with Warlock on the other.
Scout has better BAB than Warlock already and it gives more to this build than Ranger imho. You get movement bonus, bonus feats, etc. Skirmish is essentially bonus Eldritch Blast damage and even with the extra BAB more ranger would offer, there still shouldn't be too much trouble hitting. Since the character will use eldritch blast for ranged and glaive for melee...neither of the combat styles would benefit the build. Wildshape ranger might work better instead if allowed. (which also gets a movement bonus)
candycorn
2011-09-19, 06:43 PM
Personal Recommendation:
Warlock / Hellfire Warlock
and
Warblade 1 / Rogue 1 / Sneak attack Fighter 1 / Binder 2 / Ninja 1 / Swordsage 2 / Assassin 1
******************************
It's almost full BAB (you lose one at Swordsage 2), gets full eldritch blast progression, and with Assassin's stance at level 8, you'd have 4d6 sneak attack and 1d6 sudden strike, on the blast.
Add on binder for Naberius, and you'll lose that hellfire warlock damage really quickly.
Essentially, you have a 1d6 blast at level 1, +1d6 at level 2, +2d6 more at level 3, +1d6 more at level 5, +1d6 more at level 6, +2d6 more at level 8, +2d6 more at level 9, +2d6 at level 10, +3d6 at level 12, +2d6 at level 13.
By level 13, the Hellfire blast would do 17d6 damage, provided you denied your target dex, and it was vulnerable to sneak attack. With a greater chausible of fell power (MIC), you can add another 2d6 to that. By level 15, you'd have 20d6 blasts, possibly more if you can find more sneak attack.
ShneekeyTheLost
2011-09-19, 07:16 PM
Scout has better BAB than Warlock already and it gives more to this build than Ranger imho. No, they both have 3/4 BAB. Check again.
You get movement bonus, bonus feats, etc. Skirmish is essentially bonus Eldritch Blast damage and even with the extra BAB more ranger would offer, there still shouldn't be too much trouble hitting. Since the character will use eldritch blast for ranged and glaive for melee...neither of the combat styles would benefit the build. Movement bonus is irrelevant when he also gets DimDoor. You already GET skirmish damage with Swift Hunter. You get more BAB. Every Swift Hunter build has a couple levels in Scout, and the rest in Ranger. This is why.
Wildshape ranger might work better instead if allowed. (which also gets a movement bonus)
No, Wildshape Ranger makes you wonder why you ever bothered with Warlock in the first place. The phrase you are looking for here is 'Master of Many Forms'.
No, they both have 3/4 BAB. Check again. Movement bonus is irrelevant when he also gets DimDoor. You already GET skirmish damage with Swift Hunter. You get more BAB. Every Swift Hunter build has a couple levels in Scout, and the rest in Ranger. This is why.
Maybe let Swift Hunter substitute Scout Bonus feats instead of combat styles as well?
Edit:
No, Wildshape Ranger makes you wonder why you ever bothered with Warlock in the first place. The phrase you are looking for here is 'Master of Many Forms'.
I'm just trying to find some better use for Ranger class abilities for this build. Other than the impressive chassis it offers, i.e. full bab, 6 skills, two nice saves, I don't see the other abilities do much for a Warlock...
The reason I put forward Scout 5/Ranger 1//Warlock 6 is because I believe it is a better starting point with earlier evasion and everything else Scout offers (Scouts get a lot of class features). You don't need as big a BAB when you are mostly doing one high damage touch attack each round...
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.