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NeoSeraphi
2011-09-17, 02:49 AM
The Twin Blade

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff281/Aschthebloody21/Hack%20GU%20Charecters/Alkaid1.jpg


A twin blade is a ferocious melee warrior who models herself after the tiger. She is able to cut her opponents to ribbons with ease, and dual wields her swords as if they were claws.

Abilities: Unlike most Two-Weapon Fighting based classes, the twin blade is a Strength-based class. Due to the twin blade's class features, she does not need a high Dexterity score to qualify for her fighting style, so her best interests lies in maximizing her damage with a high Strength score. Constitution and Dexterity are also important.

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills: The twin blade's class skills are Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform (Weapon Drill), Profession, Spot, Swim, and Tumble

Skill Points: 4+Int modifier, x4 at 1st level

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Twin Blade Training

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Matching Pair, Gale Blade

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Twin Weapon Focus

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Ferocious Strike

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Flurry of Swords +1, Swords Dance

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Twin Blade Expertise

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Twin Weapon Specialization

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Greater Twin Weapon Focus

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Flurry of Swords +2

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Beast Awakening

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Twin Blade Mastery

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Greater Twin Weapon Specialization

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Sparrow Counter

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Whirlwind

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Tri-Strike

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Twin Blade Perfection

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Tiger Frenzy

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bloody Twin Weapon Fighting

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Two Swords as One

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Twin Weapon Reaver

[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A twin blade is proficient with all melee slashing weapons (including all exotic melee slashing weapons). She is not proficient with any other kind of weapon. A twin blade may not wield a katana as a one-handed weapon unless she has 13 or higher Strength. If a melee weapon deals both slashing damage and another type of damage, such as a dagger, the twin blade still gains proficiency with it. The twin blade is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Twin Blade Training (Ex): A twin blade is a master of fighting with two weapons. She gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not qualify for it.

Matching Pair (Ex): A twin blade, as the name suggests, greatly prefers fighting with two of the same kind of weapon. At 2nd level, she gains the ability to wield a one-handed slashing weapon in her off-hand as if it were a light weapon, taking no additional penalties on her attack rolls for doing so, but only if it is the same type of weapon as the one in her main hand. (So, Matching Pair would allow a twin blade to wield two longswords with no penalty, but if she was wielding a longsword in her main hand, she could not wield a scimitar in her off-hand, as it does not match her main-hand weapon)

Gale Blade (Ex): As a full-round action, a twin blade may make two attacks at her highest attack bonus, one with each weapon. If both attacks hit, the twin blade may expend a swift action to swing her blades and cut through the air, creating a sonic barrier between her and her opponent. She gains a +4 dodge bonus to AC against all attacks made by that creature for one round, as well as the benefits of the entropic shield spell as an extraordinary ability (The entropic shield ability applies against all ranged attacks, not just the ones from the creature the twin blade struck)

Twin Weapon Focus (Ex): A twin blade is a master of slicing and dicing with a pair of weapons she has studied, whatever they may be. Starting at 3rd level, a twin blade receives a +2 bonus to all melee attack rolls she makes with her weapons, as long as she is wielding two of the same type of melee slashing weapon. (This bonus stacks with the bonus from the Weapon Focus feat)

Ferocious Strike (Ex): A twin blade is not a swift and sneaky character like a rogue or a nimble skirmisher like a scout. She fights with pure, unmatched strength. Starting at 4th level, a twin blade adds her full Strength modifier to all melee damage rolls with her off-hand weapon.

Flurry of Swords (Ex): A twin blade wields her swords like a monk wields his fists. At 5th level, the penalty to a twin blade's melee attack rolls from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is reduced by 1. It is reduced again at level 9. (So, for a one-handed/light combination, or a one-hand/one-hand combination with Matching Pair, a level 9 twin blade takes no penalty to her attack rolls)

Swords Dance (Ex): As a swift action, a level 5 twin blade may make a Perform (Weapon Drill) check, DC 20. If she succeeds, she inspires her allies with her skills, much like a bard can inspire courage. All allies within 60 feet of the twin blade who could see and hear her performance receive a +2 morale bonus on their attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +2 for each 5 levels the twin blade has, to a maximum of +8 at 20th level. The bonus lasts until the beginning of the twin blade's next turn and it does not apply to the twin blade herself.

The twin blade may only make a Swords Dance attempt once every other turn. Whether she succeeds or fails, she must wait a full round before she attempts it again.

Twin Blade Expertise (Ex): At level 6, a twin blade receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites.

Twin Weapon Specialization (Ex): At level 7, a twin blade receives a +4 bonus to all melee damage rolls when she is wielding a matching pair of melee slashing weapons. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Weapon Specialization.

Greater Twin Weapon Focus (Ex): At level 8, a twin blade's bonus from Twin Weapon Focus increases to +4.

Beast Awakening (Ex): A twin blade has access to a special kind of attack that allows her to unleash her fury, similarly to a barbarian's rage. A twin blade may only use this ability once per day per four class levels (2 at level 10 when this ability is gained, up to 5 per day at level 20)

A twin blade activates her Beast Awakening ability as a free action, but only on her turn. She gains a +4 bonus to her Strength score, as well as a +30' untyped bonus to her land speed, a +1 morale bonus to AC and Reflex saves, and the ability to make an extra attack as part of her full attack action with both weapons, each at her highest attack bonus. (This extra attack ability stacks with all other such abilities, even those based on the haste spell)

A twin blade gains a special attack while in her Beast Awakening called the Chaotic Strike. Using Chaotic Strike consumes a swift action. When the twin blade uses Chaotic Strike, her swords grow an aura of deadly force that increases her natural reach with them by 15 feet. The blades also deal force damage, ignoring all forms of damage reduction and the miss chance of incorporeal creatures. (the weapons are still treated as slashing weapons for the purpose of satisfying all the twin blade's class features)

Chaotic Strike lasts for one round, but the twin blade may use it again on her next turn if she so wishes by consuming another swift action. She has no limit on the number of times per awakening she uses Chaotic Strike, however, activating it is very tiring, and deals 1 point of Constitution damage to the twin blade. (If the twin blade is immune to Constitution damage, she may not use Chaotic Strike)

A twin blade may only use her Beast Awakening once per encounter. A Beast Awakening lasts for one minute, after which the twin blade is fatigued for one hour. A twin blade may not enter Beast Awakening while fatigued or exhausted.

Twin Blade Mastery (Ex): At level 11, a twin blade receives Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites.

Greater Twin Blade Specialization (Ex): At level 12, the bonus to the twin blade's weapon damage rolls from Twin Blade Specialization increases to +8.

Sparrow Counter (Ex): At level 13, a twin blade gains the ability to attack a flying creature that is either directly above her or directly above a square that she threatens. As a full-round action, the twin blade makes a Jump check (DC = target's AC). If she succeeds, she leaps into the air, makes a single attack with each of her weapons at her highest attack bonus, and then lands gracefully. If she hit the flying creature and it has a natural fly speed (ie, its flight is not magical), it must make a Reflex save (DC 10+total damage dealt) or fall, taking falling damage and falling prone in the square directly below it.

Regardless of whether the twin blade's Jump check is higher than the target's AC, the twin blade cannot jump higher than 50 feet per 10 points of his Jump check (rounded down). So even if the twin blade's Jump check was 25 against the roc's AC of 17, if the roc is higher than 100 ft in the air, the twin blade cannot reach it.

If the twin blade fails her Jump check, she simply loses her full-round action and accomplishes nothing.

Whirlwind (Ex): As a standard action, a level 14 twin blade may make a single melee attack at her highest attack bonus against every creature she threatens. Alternatively, as a full-round action, a level 14 twin blade may attack each creature she threatens twice (once with each weapon she wields) at her highest attack bonus.

Tri-Strike (Ex): A twin blade is a ferocious monster to behold. As a standard action, a level 15 twin blade may make three attacks, one with her main hand, one with her off hand, and one with her main hand. Her second attack takes a -5 penalty, and her third attack takes a -10 penalty.

Twin Blade Perfection (Ex): A 16th level twin blade gains the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat. She need not meet the prerequisites, including the prerequisite that she must be an epic-level character.

Tiger Frenzy (Ex): When a 17th level twin blade enters her beast awakening, she receives a +8 bonus to her Strength score, and a +2 morale bonus to her AC and Reflex saving throws for the duration of her beast awakening. These bonuses overlap the bonuses from Beast Awakening, they do not stack with them.

Bloody Twin Weapon Fighting (Ex): A level 18 twin blade adds 1 1/2 times her Strength modifier to melee damage rolls (instead of 1/2 her Strength modifier) with both her main and off hand weapons, as long as they are matching slashing weapons. This bonus supercedes the bonus from Ferocious Strike.

Two Swords as One (Ex): Suck it CW Samurai. Whenever a level 19 twin blade confirms a critical hit with a slashing weapon she wields, she cuts her victim's head clean off, as if her weapon had the vorpal weapon enhancement and she had rolled a natural 20. (This ability functions based on the weapon's actual critical threat range, instead of a natural 20)

Twin Weapon Reaver (Ex): A 20th level twin blade shows no mercy to her enemies. She cuts them without remorse, and carves a new path in the world beyond.

A level 20 twin blade gains a point of Base Attack Bonus from this class feature as well as her level, making her total BAB if she has no other classes +21/+16/+11/+6/+1. Her Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat adjusts itself accordingly.

Additionally, any set of matching melee slashing weapons she wields have their critical threat range double and their critical multiplier improve by one step. These bonuses stack with all other such bonuses, including the keen weapon enhancement or the Improved Critical feat.

However, her weapons use their original threat ranges (modified by the keen enhancement or a related ability if applicable) for her Two Swords as One ability. (For example, a twin blade dual-wielding longswords would threaten a critical on a 17-20 and deal x3 damage, but she would only slice her victim's head off on a natural 19-20)



Alternate Class Feature: Tiger Striker
A twin blade who follows the true path of the hunter takes on aspects that make her less of an accurate, ferocious warrior and more of a destructive, leaping beast.

A Tiger Striker twin blade gains martial maneuver progression like a swordsage. She may select disciplines and stances from the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Setting Sun disciplines. A twin blade may expend a full-round action, concentrating and channeling her energy to recover all of her expended maneuvers.

This alternate class feature replaces the twin blades Twin Weapon Focus, Twin Weapon Specialization, Beast Awakening, Greater Twin Weapon Focus, Greater Twin Weapon Specialization, Tri-Strike, Tiger Frenzy, and Twin Weapon Reaver class features.

Maraxus1
2011-09-17, 10:47 AM
So, a hasted Level 20 Twinblade with two +5 katanas, strength 30 and using Beast Awakening attacks at

+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/
for
1d10+30 each

without any further insight, competence or moral bonuses to attack or damage he might get from other items or party buffs. Oh, and he probably kills someone through the vopal-ness of his blades in about 3 out of 4 rounds.
But he easily kills a Balor (290 hp @ 35 AC) or a Pit Fiend (225 hp @ 40 AC) each round anyway and even has some spare iterative attacks to finish of their lower summons as he goes.

The only redeeming feature is, that this class has no defensive abilities except for a little +2 moral to AC and Ref save. Still, a character with to much of an offensive/defensive mis-balance is harder for a DM to deal with then a character who is plain overpowered (unless the DM doesn't care, if he kills the character every now and then).


Other thinks:

I guess the Beast Awakening bonus primary hand attack does not get duplicated by perfect two-weapon fighting, since you already get a likewise off-hand attack through the ability itself...

Sparrow Counter: "directly above" means "no empty 5ft cubes between him and the target" or "above, at any height".
Both seam strange, the first one should not really need a jump and the second one means, that the Blademaster here can jump 100s of feet, if (and only if) there is a low- AC think in the air above him.

The class gets something on every level - okay, some people think this is important and I can't say this is too bad either ... But except for the Air-attack and the Whirlwind, this is all focused on the one idea of: Use 2 weapons. Well, even the name says so, I'm not sure, that this isn't a bit to narrow of a concept for a whole class.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-17, 12:04 PM
So, a hasted Level 20 Twinblade with two +5 katanas, strength 30 and using Beast Awakening attacks at

+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/
for
1d10+30 each


No. The actual haste spell does not give you an extra attack with both weapons. So it's actually +39/+39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 (which is only 4 more attacks than a hasted level 21 fighter with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting)



without any further insight, competence or moral bonuses to attack or damage he might get from other items or party buffs. Oh, and he probably kills someone through the vopal-ness of his blades in about 3 out of 4 rounds.
But he easily kills a Balor (290 hp @ 35 AC) or a Pit Fiend (225 hp @ 40 AC) each round anyway and even has some spare iterative attacks to finish of their lower summons as he goes.


The twin blade has no mobility abilities. She can only full-attack if she is within reach of a creature. So no, she doesn't kill something each round unless she's surrounded, and if she's surrounded, she's dying.



The only redeeming feature is, that this class has no defensive abilities except for a little +2 moral to AC and Ref save. Still, a character with to much of an offensive/defensive mis-balance is harder for a DM to deal with then a character who is plain overpowered (unless the DM doesn't care, if he kills the character every now and then).


Er, rangers don't have a single defensive class ability. Rogues only have one (Opportunistic Roll). Two-Weapon Fighting classes generally don't have any defensive abilities. They're "strikers", to borrow a 4.E term.



Other thinks:

I guess the Beast Awakening bonus primary hand attack does not get duplicated by perfect two-weapon fighting, since you already get a likewise off-hand attack through the ability itself...


Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting only gives you extra attacks due to your Base Attack Bonus. Beast Awakening does not influence your Base Attack Bonus.




Sparrow Counter: "directly above" means "no empty 5ft cubes between him and the target" or "above, at any height".
Both seam strange, the first one should not really need a jump and the second one means, that the Blademaster here can jump 100s of feet, if (and only if) there is a low- AC think in the air above him.


Above, at any height. And yes, that's one of those crazy class features that make heroes unique, like swinging harder and taking more damage because you're angry, turning into bears for hours at a time, and instantly shrugging off paralysis because you're that manly.



The class gets something on every level - okay, some people think this is important and I can't say this is too bad either ... But except for the Air-attack and the Whirlwind, this is all focused on the one idea of: Use 2 weapons. Well, even the name says so, I'm not sure, that this isn't a bit to narrow of a concept for a whole class.

Yeah. Two-Weapon Fighting is such a poorly designed system that you need 20 full levels to make it actually viable at higher levels. A two-weapon fighter is, in theory, a warrior who shreds his opponents apart with a flurry of fast attacks and yet he has to spend 3 feats to get a weak version of flurry of blows and deal less damage than anyone else. All those weaknesses took a lot of class features to plug up.

Maraxus1
2011-09-17, 12:52 PM
Er, rangers don't have a single defensive class ability. Rogues only have one (Opportunistic Roll). Two-Weapon Fighting classes generally don't have any defensive abilities. They're "strikers", to borrow a 4.E term.
Well, Rangers and rogues are not that "overpowered" in terms of their offensive capabilities, thus you can easily give them moderate challenges.
This guy however, you have to confront with real monsters in melee, so that the monsters don't die on the first full attack. And those creatures probably kill this guy like they would kill a ranger or rogue in one turn or max twi in return.
It's not impossible, the DM simply needs to design a monster that has the necessary defense or evasive abilities to avoid full attacks (which might be hard, as I'd combine this with a wizard, the higher of the two delays and then it's dimension door - full attack - kill) without the offensive capabilities to kill a character of this level too fast. But it's hard.


Perfect 2-weapon fighting: Well, it does not say: "For every attack with your primary weapon due to BAB, you get one with your off-hand."
It says: "You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus."
And if the former was supposed, than (given that in the normal game your BAB never exceeds 20 (am I right here?)) it would probably say: "You get a forth attack with your off-hand at BAB -15", wouldn't it?


Sparrow Counter: Really? If all the other classes had a "summon pink unicorn" ability, would you give it to your class, too? :smallwink: Just kidding, my real problem with this power is, that it is so internally inconsistent. It's basically a rule for writing fantasy fiction but I guess it fits for game design, too: "Magic" needs to have it's own rules too. If you use it to explain whatever you have no explanation for, than this is bad.
There is an internal Logic in Wild shape and Fighters with high Fortitude saves and whatever. But there is no internal logic when you can't jump over a 20 ft wall but suddenly you are jumping upwards 300 ft, because there is an easy to hit target above you and then the next round you once again jump only (jump check/4) ft high because the target above took a full defense and you rolled bad. It simply makes no sense. You don't create a special feature, that allows your character to do a listen check in order to deal 3d6 fire damage to a target unless the target has the turn undead class feature. - Because it makes no sense.

Why don't you instead make the ability replace the high jump table turning the linear jumping progression into something exponentially, so that the character's jumping height is not dependent on something that should be irrelevant and still high enough (with sufficient points in jump) to pick enemies out of the sky - unless they are flying really high. And in that case: Tough luck, D&D is no single player game, maybe your teammates have a tool for this situation.

Hanuman
2011-09-17, 01:19 PM
I like some of the flavor in this, mostly leaning into the late-game.

Early game seems to be mostly just feat fixes.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-17, 02:08 PM
Why don't you instead make the ability replace the high jump table turning the linear jumping progression into something exponentially, so that the character's jumping height is not dependent on something that should be irrelevant and still high enough (with sufficient points in jump) to pick enemies out of the sky - unless they are flying really high. And in that case: Tough luck, D&D is no single player game, maybe your teammates have a tool for this situation.

...Because I don't want to. Besides, I was intending for Sparrow Counter to be like a martial maneuver, essentially allowing you to charge vertically, but not allowing you to make insane Jump checks. I mean, most Tiger Claw disciplines give you great Jump checks, but only when you're attacking something, so yeah, there is a precedent for "only being able to jump really high when something irrelevant is there"

Veklim
2011-09-17, 05:26 PM
You could always turn it into a type of Abundant Step ability, but only usable vertically (and usable more than a poxy 1/day of course). Slightly dirty fix but it would work on basic premise I think.

Metahuman1
2011-09-17, 08:34 PM
Ok, good looking fix. It might even be the first one for TWF I've seen that I don't think needs a Sneak attack/skirmish/Iaijutsu Focus/ext type of damage boost.

Having said that.

The Vorporal ability you gain late in your career? I'd advise changing that just a bit too a Vorporal like Ability, but it functions on a Crit.

It's level 19-20, Chain Gating Solars has been online for a couple of levels now, so no, that is not broken.

I'd also advise considering throwing knowledge Skills and UMD on the class skills list. Give you a bit more out of combat versatility and make some nice toy's options for builds, and of course bring Knowledge devotion online as an option.

Other then that, not a bad looking class.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-17, 09:57 PM
Ok, good looking fix. It might even be the first one for TWF I've seen that I don't think needs a Sneak attack/skirmish/Iaijutsu Focus/ext type of damage boost.

Having said that.

The Vorporal ability you gain late in your career? I'd advise changing that just a bit too a Vorporal like Ability, but it functions on a Crit.

It's level 19-20, Chain Gating Solars has been online for a couple of levels now, so no, that is not broken.

I'd also advise considering throwing knowledge Skills and UMD on the class skills list. Give you a bit more out of combat versatility and make some nice toy's options for builds, and of course bring Knowledge devotion online as an option.

Other then that, not a bad looking class.

Good suggestion for the vorpal change, and thanks for your praise.

The skills list you suggested does not fit the fluff of the class (I actually have a particular class in mind based on the character who is pictured above, and yes, a twin blade like her is nimble and strong but not particularly smart or skilled with magical items)

SamBurke
2011-09-18, 02:45 AM
Soul...any TWF martial character must dip this. Or go 20. This is stinking sweeeeet.

Now here's the thing... damage. The number of ways to make this ridiculous is uncountable. Dip a few levels of artificer from Pathfinder, and BOOOOOOOOOM. You now can have 2 +20 swords, letting you take all sorts of penalties to add damage (multiplied by 4-10 due to blades), adding Power Attack. To. TWF. (On top of 1d10+30, mind you...), due to the "one handed" ability (I might be wrong there, in which case, sorry). This is in addition to a bunch of damage dealing bonuses to the blade (18-20/x2 + Keen + Two Swords As One means you have... 9-20/x2 crit range. Hrm.)

On individual things:

I actually DO like Sparrow Counter, because it solves one of the biiiiig problems of a melee character: flyers. Those mages just like to bombard everyone from the air. This lets Twin Blades stop 'em cold.

Beast Awakening is interesting, if largely unexplored. Rage+TWF...? Possibilities there are.

By mid levels (9), you have 0 penalties to your TWF. That's good. So with a 10-level dip, you have a VERY workable little Two-Weapon-Killer. Belkar would be so proud.

All in all, though? I'd rename it. Something like the Pwn Blade seems more fitting. :small tongue:

In all seriousness, I like the class, and I'd check it. As a DM, I might push it down a little, but it's still good.

Dumbledore lives
2011-09-18, 03:03 AM
The class looks fine, though seems a little limited in scope. All it really adds to TWF is more numbers, which is always nice, but does not add much more flexibility than a whirling frenzy barbarian with TWF feats.

That and the 19th level ability seems more like a capstone, and can result in decapitations 30% of the time per attack, and when you have so many attacks that is quite a high chance indeed.

I'd say add some more options, looking to maybe the Tiger Claw disciple from ToB for some ideas, though that is quite a specific archetype, and yours is more general.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 03:17 AM
The class looks fine, though seems a little limited in scope. All it really adds to TWF is more numbers, which is always nice, but does not add much more flexibility than a whirling frenzy barbarian with TWF feats.

That and the 19th level ability seems more like a capstone, and can result in decapitations 30% of the time per attack, and when you have so many attacks that is quite a high chance indeed.

I'd say add some more options, looking to maybe the Tiger Claw disciple from ToB for some ideas, though that is quite a specific archetype, and yours is more general.

That was the general aim of the build though. I'm not interested in giving this particular class options other than slash and attack, though Tri-Strike, Sparrow Counter, and Beast Awakening all have their shining moments.

The Twin Blade was meant to be a Tier 4 build, simply combat-based and good at one thing in particular. (It was largely inspired by the strange number of TWF-based base classes I've been seeing the past couple of days)

That said, at the end of the day, if a player wanted to use two longswords or two katanas, but didn't want to be a pansy rogue and cried at the CW Samurai, he has the Twin Blade.

GuyFawkes
2011-09-18, 03:44 AM
That said, at the end of the day, if a player wanted to use two longswords or two katanas, but didn't want to be a pansy rogue and cried at the CW Samurai, he has the Twin Blade.

Amen to that, brother! Having said that, it would have been nice to have some of the flashy abilities on the lower levels and just let the scale, but other than that, it's a cool class. As the Red Queen likes to say it,

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!

channingman
2011-09-18, 05:28 AM
Is everyone else here just completely off their rocker? This class is so completely broken and overpowered it makes me cringe.

Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.

Guess what, people - making a class that is so completely stuffed with abilities and powers that nothing can touch it is *not* a good way to make a class. It's just messing around in God-mode, or with all the cheats turned on. Not only would I never play this class, I would never allow it in any game I ran. *ever*. I wouldn't even bother trying to tone it down, I'd just make a new class entirely.

It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.

Why don't you just give it divine spellcasting while you're at it. Lvl 9 spells starting at lvl 1. That way he really can be in God mode all the time.

Maraxus1
2011-09-18, 06:47 AM
You should not say it that way. NeoSeraphi has made much more overpowered classes already and if you tell him that he simply says that you have no idea of the tier system and if your DM is an idiot who allows you to use any broken class/PrC combination ever published somewhere then you can build something even stronger already so this is not overpowered.

So under the premise, that all core classes are bad, unless they are minmaxed with splatbook powers and that the right monster for a group of level X is a monster with a CR of about 1.2 * X, how is the class then? (I mean, 1.2 is not so far of the perfect 1.0, is it?)

SilverSavio
2011-09-18, 10:13 AM
Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.


This class is built with only one goal I see, and that is two weapon fighting should be fun to play but not taxed. And there is a huge weakness this class has that you failed to notice in that if s/he is not wielding two of the same blade, then it's class features don't work.

The pansy move here is sunder. Breaking just one sword wreaks all momentum this class has.

Shadow Lord
2011-09-18, 10:17 AM
Is everyone else here just completely off their rocker? This class is so completely broken and overpowered it makes me cringe.

Guess what, people - classes are supposed to have weaknesses.

Guess what, people - making a class that is so completely stuffed with abilities and powers that nothing can touch it is *not* a good way to make a class. It's just messing around in God-mode, or with all the cheats turned on. Not only would I never play this class, I would never allow it in any game I ran. *ever*. I wouldn't even bother trying to tone it down, I'd just make a new class entirely.

It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.

Why don't you just give it divine spellcasting while you're at it. Lvl 9 spells starting at lvl 1. That way he really can be in God mode all the time.

Excuse me, but are you off your rocker? This class is not broken. The class has a viable counter to flying creatures, it can do some pretty good damage right out of the box, it's got some damn good accuracy, because it's unfocussed completely on attacking and if Neo didn't give some way to negate the TWF penalties, it would degrade once more into, " That thing that people want to use, but is so terrible it can hardly be used. "

Also: The rage ability isn't broken by any stretch of the imagination.


You should not say it that way. NeoSeraphi has made much more overpowered classes already and if you tell him that he simply says that you have no idea of the tier system and if your DM is an idiot who allows you to use any broken class/PrC combination ever published somewhere then you can build something even stronger already so this is not overpowered.

So under the premise, that all core classes are bad, unless they are minmaxed with splatbook powers and that the right monster for a group of level X is a monster with a CR of about 1.2 * X, how is the class then? (I mean, 1.2 is not so far of the perfect 1.0, is it?)

Might I kindly invite you to read the Rules of Posting?

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 11:56 AM
It isn't a good idea to create a class that breaks *every* rule: allowing double haste, double keen, stupid-high jump attacks (which actually shows you know nothing about flying creatures, based on how you described what happens when they start to fall), stupid-high bonuses to damage, stupid-high bonuses to attack, and a rage-like ability that simply compounds the class's broken-ness.


What do you mean? A creature with a natural fly speed that is reduced to 0 starts to fall. They take falling damage and land prone in a square. What's wrong with that?

Hanuman
2011-09-18, 01:22 PM
What do you mean? A creature with a natural fly speed that is reduced to 0 starts to fall. They take falling damage and land prone in a square. What's wrong with that?
Nothing, but its a teleport spell with featherfall after, otherwise for a 100' sparrow counter you're going to be going about 80MPH up and 55MPH down. Effect: DC 30-40+ Reflex battlefield control +XD6(uncapped), negation of flying, and at the end of turn they are in the same square as you, prone, under your feet. Then, have 2 weapon sets with return crystals in them (very affordable), this means you can swap weapon sets as a free action. As soon as you land drop the swords, return the whips, now you're a tripper and guess who's already prone in your square ;]

And let's not even mention environmental hazards, especially lava. I don't even own that many d20's.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 01:26 PM
Nothing, but its a teleport spell with featherfall after, otherwise for a 100' sparrow counter you're going to be going about 80MPH up and 55MPH down. Effect: DC 30-40+ Reflex battlefield control +XD6(uncapped), negation of flying, and at the end of turn they are in the same square as you, prone, under your feet. Then, have 2 weapon sets with return crystals in them (very affordable), this means you can swap weapon sets as a free action. As soon as you land drop the swords, return the whips, now you're a tripper and guess who's already prone in your square ;]

And let's not even mention environmental hazards, especially lava. I don't even own that many d20's.

Well, yeah, I get all that, but he said "Which shows you know nothing about flying creatures", implying that my grounding effect was wrong somehow.

jiriku
2011-09-18, 02:07 PM
A strong archetype, and one that many players would be interested in. Over 20 levels, you're gaining +9 to hit, +14 damage, and three extra attacks per round (although two of those are at a very low bonus). You also get +2 AC, +2 Reflex save which is a little help in overcoming your two poor saves limited armor proficiency, and lack of mobility-enhancing powers.

Given the goals you set out for the class, I'd say you've succeeded in creating what you wanted to create. However, you might be more even satisfied with it during gameplay if you altered or added a couple powers.

It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).

GuyFawkes
2011-09-18, 02:14 PM
Given the goals you set out for the class, I'd say you've succeeded in creating what you wanted to create. However, you might be more even satisfied with it during gameplay if you altered or added a couple powers.

It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).

+1 on all the suggestions, especially the first one. Like maybe an array of counters of sorts, dealing with otherwise difficult-to-hit positioned targets.

Curious
2011-09-18, 02:45 PM
It looks pretty solid. The only thing I could see that would really improve the class (besides Jirikus suggestions) would be some kind of option to move + full attack.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 02:47 PM
Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +5
Normal: You suck at dodging while wearing light or no armor


Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +10
Normal: A character with the Two-Weapon Defense feat can only receive up to a +5 shield bonus to her AC


Greater Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Base Attack Bonus +11
Benefit: While you are wielding two weapons and wearing light or no armor, you gain a shield bonus to your AC equal to your Base Attack Bonus, to a maximum of +15
Normal: A character with the Improved Two-Weapon Defense feat can only receive up to a +10 shield bonus to her AC


Two-Weapon Rend
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: When you hit a character with both your main hand and your off hand weapon in the same attack action, you can unbalance your opponent and use that to your advantage. You may either make a Bull Rush attempt or a Trip attempt as a free action that does not require a touch attack or provoke an attack of opportunity. If you fail your Trip attempt, your opponent does not get to trip you. You receive a bonus on either check equal to the total enhancement bonus of both weapons you wield.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 02:48 PM
It looks pretty solid. The only thing I could see that would really improve the class (besides Jirikus suggestions) would be some kind of option to move + full attack.

Tri-Strike already grants you the ability to attack 3 times as a standard action. That's almost a full attack for a normal character right there.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 03:01 PM
It would be nice to see some more abilities like Sparrow Counter that let you extend your reach or strike hard-to-reach opponents. Extending that even further, a few abilities that emphasize the twin blade's natural athleticism would let you play around with tactical use of terrain and environment, which is always fun.
I like how you shored up the weak points in several otherwise-lame TWF feats. It would be nice to see something similar for feats like the Two-Weapon Defense line, Dual Strike, Double Hit, and Two-Weapon Rend (although as far as Rend goes, you really don't need more hp damage - how about something like 1 point of Con damage per strike whenever you hit the opponent with both both weapons in the same round or something).
I like the 4 skill points per level - definitely a good idea. This is mostly just for flavor, but it would neat to have Martial Lore and Perform (weapon drill) on the skill list, so the twin blade can show off her skill and speak knowledgeably about advanced combat techniques and battle stuff.
While Whirlwind is nice, I'd be even cooler if you could attack once with each weapon (this kind of expands on what the Dual Strike and Whirlwind Attack feats were trying to do).

Added Chaotic Strike, which increases a twin blade's reach with her weapons by 15 feet while she is in Beast Awakening and also turns her weapons into objects of force that ignore all damage reduction (This is both helpful gamewise and definitely fits the flavor of Alkaid's Beast Awakening)
I don't know what books Double Hit and Dual Strike are in, but I posted some new versions of the TWD line, and a new Two Weapon Rend
Sure, why not. Added to the class
Added a full-attack option for Whirlwind to the class feature that does what you suggested, while keeping the standard action Whirlwind the same.

Curious
2011-09-18, 03:03 PM
Tri-Strike already grants you the ability to attack 3 times as a standard action. That's almost a full attack for a normal character right there.

Yes, I realize that, but the main strength of this class is still its massive number of attacks, so it's quite a hit to not be able to take them all.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 03:04 PM
Yes, I realize that, but the main strength of this class is still its massive number of attacks, so it's quite a hit to not be able to take them all.

Yes, but that's a problem that all melee face, and taking it away makes it really hard for the DM to plan encounters appropriately. I don't agree with Pounce being an option for every striker. At all. A limited version of it is more than enough, in my opinion.

Hanuman
2011-09-18, 03:06 PM
Well, yeah, I get all that, but he said "Which shows you know nothing about flying creatures", implying that my grounding effect was wrong somehow.
He was talking balance, which you have gotten pretty well.

Maybe anger due to playing a year long campaign with his TWF fighter, all those misses and damage reductions probably caused PTSD

Anyway, I like what you've done here, if you ever feel like contributing some of your input into the flowdancer feel free-- it's got a lot of TWF in it, just needs to be formatted better to make that viable.

channingman
2011-09-18, 08:19 PM
Absolutely no Barbarian, Bard Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue or Sorcerer could compete with this class. A wizard would *only* have a chance if he knew the fight was going to happen and prepared accordingly. And he'd likely get his butt kicked anyway. So no, I don't think he's balanced.

As to falling - a creature only falls 300 feet in the first round, 500 feet in each round after that. Each round that it falls without hitting the ground, it gets another reflex save to resume flying. These are the flying rules that you apparently don't know.

Two-weapon fighting gets penalties becuase it's difficult to do, and because it gives a great benefit. A TWF fighter with his feats designed for TWF is incredible at TWF. A Ranger with the TWF combat style who focuses his character feats into TWF is also amazing at TWF. Neither of them can come *close* to fighting this guy.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 08:28 PM
As to falling - a creature only falls 300 feet in the first round, 500 feet in each round after that. Each round that it falls without hitting the ground, it gets another reflex save to resume flying. These are the flying rules that you apparently don't know.


Ah. See, I didn't even picture that kind of scenario because my fights always take place with flyers 100 or 150 feet in the air. But I can see where you're coming from. I updated Sparrow Counter to prevent the twin blade from Jumping any higher than 50 feet per 10 points of his Jump check, so assuming full ranks and a 24 Str with only a -2 AC penalty, that's an average of 150 per jump.

channingman
2011-09-18, 08:41 PM
That's a little better. Still a little OP for my blood, but I appreciate that you are willing to make changes like that. I suppose in a game where there's a high level of power gaming and min-maxing, this class could fit in. I guess I just like a game with more roleplaying and having weaker characters. Makes it more fun for me.

Elfstone
2011-09-18, 09:17 PM
Absolutely no Barbarian, Bard Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue or Sorcerer could compete with this class. A wizard would *only* have a chance if he knew the fight was going to happen and prepared accordingly. And he'd likely get his butt kicked anyway. So no, I don't think he's balanced.

As to falling - a creature only falls 300 feet in the first round, 500 feet in each round after that. Each round that it falls without hitting the ground, it gets another reflex save to resume flying. These are the flying rules that you apparently don't know.

Two-weapon fighting gets penalties becuase it's difficult to do, and because it gives a great benefit. A TWF fighter with his feats designed for TWF is incredible at TWF. A Ranger with the TWF combat style who focuses his character feats into TWF is also amazing at TWF. Neither of them can come *close* to fighting this guy.

What? At first I thought you were joking... The wizard would smack this guy with a Save or die and that would be that.... or one of the tens of methods that would work in this situation... The druid would just have his animal companion eat him or distract him long enough to summon something big enough to do so. While this IS more powerful than something like a barbarian or god forbid a fighter, its is NOT Op.....

Anyway, nice class, but perhaps less attacks and some martial manouvers instead? An ACF that adds options instead of numbers? Just a suggestion.

jiriku
2011-09-18, 09:36 PM
A TWF fighter with his feats designed for TWF is incredible at TWF. A Ranger with the TWF combat style who focuses his character feats into TWF is also amazing at TWF. Neither of them can come *close* to fighting this guy.

If I were to describe it, I'd say that fighter and ranger are "so-so" or "sort of okay" at TWF. Twin blade is certainly better than either, but that should be understood from the perspective that neither fighter nor ranger is particularly good at anything. They are poor yardsticks for class balance, because they are outstripped by a dozen or more published WotC classes, in some cases quite severely.



Absolutely no Barbarian, Bard Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue or Sorcerer could compete with this class. A wizard would *only* have a chance if he knew the fight was going to happen and prepared accordingly. And he'd likely get his butt kicked anyway. So no, I don't think he's balanced.

I would disagree. Consider: Twin blade is a class with a tight performance range. By this I mean that the class is designed inflexibly, so that a well-built twin blade is not much better than a badly built twinblade. All of the other classes you mentioned are classes with wide performance ranges. Well-built members of those classes are really awesome, and badly built members of those classes suck really hard. If you're used to casual games by players who don't invest effort in character optimization, the twin blade probably seems powerful to you because it has a solid minimum performance level - you really can't build a bad one. But I could easily make a fighter, rogue, or even an adept for that matter that could compete very equitably with a twin blade. I could make a wizard or druid that could kill it ten different ways before breakfast.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 09:41 PM
I would disagree. Consider: Twin blade is a class with a tight performance range. By this I mean that the class is designed inflexibly, so that a well-built twin blade is not much better than a badly built twinblade. All of the other classes you mentioned are classes with wide performance ranges. Well-built members of those classes are really awesome, and badly built members of those classes suck really hard. If you're used to casual games by players who don't invest effort in character optimization, the twin blade probably seems powerful to you because it has a solid minimum performance level - you really can't build a bad one. But I could easily make a fighter, rogue, or even an adept for that matter that could compete very equitably with a twin blade. I could make a wizard or druid that could kill it ten different ways before breakfast.

O-Ouch jiriku..you know I'm right here, right? Anyway, did you like the feats I posted per your request?


Anyway, nice class, but perhaps less attacks and some martial manouvers instead? An ACF that adds options instead of numbers? Just a suggestion.

Done. Added the Tiger Striker ACF, gives up about half its class features for swordsage maneuver progression from a few schools.

Elfstone
2011-09-18, 09:46 PM
O-Ouch jiriku..you know I'm right here, right? Anyway, did you like the feats I posted per your request?



Done. Added the Tiger Striker ACF, gives up about half its class features for swordsage maneuver progression from a few schools.

<3

If you could add the option for a few homebrew schools that would be awesome. If you don't know of any, I can link a few.

jiriku, I'd disagree with the fighter or adept comment. Unless they were of YOUR fighter class. In which case I would heartily agree.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 09:47 PM
<3

If you could add the option for a few homebrew schools that would be awesome. If you don't know of any, I can link a few.

jiriku, I'd disagree with the fighter or adept comment. Unless they were of YOUR fighter class. In which case I would heartily agree.

The only homebrew disciplines I know of are the ones that are weapon specific, like Twin Spirit, Black Rain, and Shooting Star.

jiriku
2011-09-18, 10:28 PM
O-Ouch jiriku..you know I'm right here, right? Anyway, did you like the feats I posted per your request?


jiriku, I'd disagree with the fighter or adept comment. Unless they were of YOUR fighter class. In which case I would heartily agree.

Muahahahaha! Not to be mean, Neo, but considering that I could negate 90% of your class features just by moving half my speed once per round, I was tempted to say commoner. :smalltongue: But really, a basic ubercharger could deal as much damage or more than a twinblade, and can do it on the move. An adept gets animate dead and minor creation. Those two spells alone are enough to pose a credible threat to a twinblade.

jiriku
2011-09-18, 10:29 PM
O-Ouch jiriku..you know I'm right here, right? Anyway, did you like the feats I posted per your request?


jiriku, I'd disagree with the fighter or adept comment. Unless they were of YOUR fighter class. In which case I would heartily agree.

Muahahahaha! Not to be mean, Neo, but considering that I could negate 90% of your class features just by moving my speed once per round, I was tempted to say commoner. :smalltongue: But really, a basic ubercharger could deal as much damage or more than a twinblade, and can do it on the move. An adept gets animate dead and minor creation. Those two spells alone are enough to pose a credible threat to a twinblade. Heck, an expert with UMD and the right scrolls could own you pretty hard.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 10:32 PM
Muahahahaha! Not to be mean, Neo, but considering that I could negate 90% of your class features just by moving my speed once per round, I was tempted to say commoner. :smalltongue: But really, a basic ubercharger could deal as much damage or more than a twinblade, and can do it on the move. An adept gets animate dead and minor creation. Those two spells alone are enough to pose a credible threat to a twinblade. Heck, an expert with UMD and the right scrolls could own you pretty hard.

UMD cheese is one thing, but an adept? Really? Yes, adepts get animate dead, but the average adept only has a 12 in his casting stat, so he doesn't even get a high enough score without an elite array!

The class does indeed yield to an ubercharger. I'm fine with that. But you were so...ouch.

And you didn't answer my question about the stupid feats!

jiriku
2011-09-18, 10:38 PM
I didn't think you'd be so sensitive about it! :smallbiggrin: But seriously, minor creation for a bucket of black lotus poison. Animate dead for a hillion jillion skeletons, who dunk their weapons in it. Then stand on yonder hilltop and cackle maniacally whilst you order your skellies to give the twin blade some tainted love. It's not guaranteed to work but it only takes 1 spell slot, so I could prep 5 more avenues of attack. Adept is Tier 4 for a reason.

I think Two Weapon Rend is an excellent idea, especially the bull rush because it improves your mobility.

SamBurke
2011-09-18, 10:38 PM
UMD cheese is one thing, but an adept? Really? Yes, adepts get animate dead, but the average adept only has a 12 in his casting stat, so he doesn't even get a high enough score without an elite array!

The class does indeed yield to an ubercharger. I'm fine with that. But you were so...ouch.

And you didn't answer my question about the stupid feats!

I liked the feats.

As to an adept, this class gets at least a 50 move speed... Ilt'll bee the one doing the dancing. It just needs to win initiative, which it's Dex should take care of, and it pwns.

No worries here, Seraph.

Seerow
2011-09-18, 10:54 PM
I'm amazed at the people saying this is horribly overpowered. It's really inflexible, and lacking several features I would have assumed were pretty much mandatory for a TWFer (primarily a rend attack, and more attacks when making an AoO), and the mobility is kind of lacking (even with Tri Attack, you get 3 attacks at +0/-5/-10 vs the attack sequence that got outlined above with like 14 attacks. Movement still hurts this class as much as a normal two weapon fighter).


I will say however that getting a vorpol effect on ANY confirmed crit is pretty over the top though. I could see giving a free vorpal effect, but just leave it at that. No need to give a 25% chance per attack to insta-gib someone.

What I'd actually consider doing there is giving a rend effect at low-mid levels (ie once per turn when you hit with both a mainhand and offhand attack in the same turn, deal some bonus damage. It actually works great with your "it's all about strength" theme, since rend is typically something like dice+2xstr damage, you could go so far as to have that improve as you increase your strength multipliers from TWFing, so have something like 3-4x str at high levels), and give that rend a save or die effect at level 19 (DC 10+1/2 level+str mod), instead of the vorpal. It's weaker, but more thematic (you hit with both weapons, which would normally rend causing some damage, you instead rend their head off literally), and less easily broken.

Hanuman
2011-09-18, 11:08 PM
Ah. See, I didn't even picture that kind of scenario because my fights always take place with flyers 100 or 150 feet in the air. But I can see where you're coming from. I updated Sparrow Counter to prevent the twin blade from Jumping any higher than 50 feet per 10 points of his Jump check, so assuming full ranks and a 24 Str with only a -2 AC penalty, that's an average of 150 per jump.
You didn't picture it with good reason, 500' is a +50DC spot check modifier.

To get a 100' jump you're still looking at DC100 jump check equiv, not to mention tumble, but I see nothing wrong with this because every time I read this I think of Cervantes' blink up and smack down, so I visualize a teleport, or blink, or shadowstep.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-18, 11:44 PM
I'm amazed at the people saying this is horribly overpowered. It's really inflexible, and lacking several features I would have assumed were pretty much mandatory for a TWFer (primarily a rend attack, and more attacks when making an AoO), and the mobility is kind of lacking (even with Tri Attack, you get 3 attacks at +0/-5/-10 vs the attack sequence that got outlined above with like 14 attacks. Movement still hurts this class as much as a normal two weapon fighter).


Yep. That's pretty much why I'm ignoring most of the "This is broken" comments.



I will say however that getting a vorpol effect on ANY confirmed crit is pretty over the top though. I could see giving a free vorpal effect, but just leave it at that. No need to give a 25% chance per attack to insta-gib someone.


At level 19? A lot of things have magical protections and regeneration and immunity to critical hits/death effects at level 19. Besides, a level 19 ability has to reward a character for not multiclassing at all. Have you seen any actual suggested builds on this board that say "take this class for all 20 levels"? Because I haven't. Not once. The level 19 and 20 abilities are competing with every possible prestige class capstone in the game at the same time. (As well as all ninth level martial maneuvers)

For these reasons, I have no problems rewarding a player for playing 19 levels of a single class. Because it never happens. And even if you respond with "Well, with an ability like that, I would gladly take this class for 19 levels", I would reply "Mission accomplished then!"




What I'd actually consider doing there is giving a rend effect at low-mid levels (ie once per turn when you hit with both a mainhand and offhand attack in the same turn, deal some bonus damage. It actually works great with your "it's all about strength" theme, since rend is typically something like dice+2xstr damage, you could go so far as to have that improve as you increase your strength multipliers from TWFing, so have something like 3-4x str at high levels), and give that rend a save or die effect at level 19 (DC 10+1/2 level+str mod), instead of the vorpal. It's weaker, but more thematic (you hit with both weapons, which would normally rend causing some damage, you instead rend their head off literally), and less easily broken.

It's a good suggestion, but it doesn't fit the flavor of the class. A twin blade is a lithe character who uses her weapons all at once, dealing moderate damage with each weapon, but receiving no special bonuses for striking the same character twice, simply gaining more attacks than any other class in The World R:2.

Besides, rending is a monster ability. Just like pounce. Monster abilities don't belong in the hands of PCs, they are meant to kill PCs. (<-- My personal opinion)

mrcarter11
2011-09-19, 05:57 AM
First off I'd like to say I enjoy the class quite a bit and find it fun. I'll probably throw one at one of the parties I'm DMing here soon. I'll let you know how that goes.. Do note most of the games are gestalt.. Anyways, I also must ask, will you be doing the rest of The World classes? I'd love to see that.. Like truly love to.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-19, 11:21 AM
First off I'd like to say I enjoy the class quite a bit and find it fun. I'll probably throw one at one of the parties I'm DMing here soon. I'll let you know how that goes.. Do note most of the games are gestalt.. Anyways, I also must ask, will you be doing the rest of The World classes? I'd love to see that.. Like truly love to.

Hmm? I doubt it, the only real reason I did this was A) Because I saw three two-weapon fighting classes in a row and I thought all of them were poorly designed, and B) Because Alkaid is my favorite character :smallbiggrin:

I think if I were going to play a Blade Brandier I'd refluff the swashbuckler class, if I were going to be a Tribal Grappler I'd play an unarmed swordsage who focused on Setting Sun and Desert Wind maneuvers, if I were going to play a Lord Partizan I'd roll up a fighter with heavy armor and a deadly polearm. Sorcerers make fine Shadow Warlocks and a cleric with the right domain could easily pass for a Harvest Cleric.

I guess the only reason I needed to make the Twin Blade at all was because Two-Weapon Fighting is such a terribly designed system in the first place. I mean, that's the great thing about 3.5, you can honestly think of anything you want to do, and with the right refluffing and a little splatbook diving, you can pull it off. (Look at those psionic Naruto characters)

Sorry, fellow fan of The World. I wish I could help, but I don't really have the drive to create those other classes.

mrcarter11
2011-09-19, 04:15 PM
Yeah I loved the show. The name of this class is what actually got Me to look at the thread. And you missed the two I was thinking about. A Flick Reaper and a Steam Gunner. The gunner can probably be done with crossbows just fine, but nothing really models a reaper. And I'd just love to see a Rogue done well. :smallbiggrin:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-19, 04:18 PM
Yeah I loved the show. The name of this class is what actually got Me to look at the thread. And you missed the two I was thinking about. A Flick Reaper and a Steam Gunner. The gunner can probably be done with crossbows just fine, but nothing really models a reaper. And I'd just love to see a Rogue done well. :smallbiggrin:

What does a Reaper do?

mrcarter11
2011-09-19, 04:21 PM
AoE knock back, with a scythe.. Or sometimes an axe iIrc.

Veklim
2011-09-22, 10:15 AM
What I'd actually consider doing there is giving a rend effect at low-mid levels...

Like the 'Two weapon rend' feat from PHB II perhaps? Then expand and advance upon conveniently placed and already published material :smallbiggrin:


every time I read this I think of Cervantes' blink up and smack down, so I visualize a teleport, or blink, or shadowstep.

Yes indeed, this is what I was trying to say earlier with the Abundant Step thing! Except that it's almost EXACTLY opposite to the Cervantes thing in that you're striking at the top instead of the bottom, the visuals are pretty much how I saw it too.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-22, 11:55 AM
That's a little better. Still a little OP for my blood, but I appreciate that you are willing to make changes like that. I suppose in a game where there's a high level of power gaming and min-maxing, this class could fit in. I guess I just like a game with more roleplaying and having weaker characters. Makes it more fun for me.

Stormwind Fallacy.

About the class: Looks interesting, though I can imagine quite a lot of DM:s reacting badly to the vorpal effect. Anyway, next time I do a TWF I'll probably see if I can use this. :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-24, 11:34 PM
Stormwind Fallacy.

About the class: Looks interesting, though I can imagine quite a lot of DM:s reacting badly to the vorpal effect. Anyway, next time I do a TWF I'll probably see if I can use this. :smallsmile:

Thank you. Let me know how it goes!

Veklim
2011-09-25, 07:17 AM
Just looking through the abilities again, and I figured out what was bugging me about this. Chaotic Strike + Whirlwind is ludicrously powerful, giving you as a full round action, 2 force damage attacks on every enemy within a 20ft radius minimum at your highest attack. Before anyone chimes in with the 'a wizard can do worse', I realise this isn't much different to a mid-level AoE spell, except the closest you get to a save is AC. Thing is, we all know magic is broken (although the extent of the damage is often disputed) and I don't know if giving an essentially mundane class this sort of effect is wise. Can you imagine what would happen with two of these guys using flanking?!

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-25, 09:04 AM
Just looking through the abilities again, and I figured out what was bugging me about this. Chaotic Strike + Whirlwind is ludicrously powerful, giving you as a full round action, 2 force damage attacks on every enemy within a 20ft radius minimum at your highest attack. Before anyone chimes in with the 'a wizard can do worse', I realise this isn't much different to a mid-level AoE spell, except the closest you get to a save is AC. Thing is, we all know magic is broken (although the extent of the damage is often disputed) and I don't know if giving an essentially mundane class this sort of effect is wise. Can you imagine what would happen with two of these guys using flanking?!

Chaotic Strike lasts for one round and deals Constitution damage to the twin blade. If she wishes to use it multiple times in one Beast Awakening, she will be losing hit points fast. Additionally, the twin blade may only enter Beast Awakening up to 5 times per day, each time only lasting one minute. And multiple uses of Chaotic Strike per day will result in a badly injured twin blade. If there is no cleric in the party, she will not be able to use it very often. If there is a cleric in the party, she will not be able to use it that often in battle anyway, as restoration has a casting time of 3 rounds.

Beast Awakening is meant to mitigate the Twin Blade's inability to pounce by giving her more attacks and longer reach, if she so chooses, but it is a two-edged sword. Constitution damage lowers hit points and Fortitude saves, both of which the twin blade will need if she is within 20 feet of too many creatures.

Elfstone
2011-09-25, 11:56 AM
Chaotic Strike lasts for one round and deals Constitution damage to the twin blade. If she wishes to use it multiple times in one Beast Awakening, she will be losing hit points fast. Additionally, the twin blade may only enter Beast Awakening up to 5 times per day, each time only lasting one minute. And multiple uses of Chaotic Strike per day will result in a badly injured twin blade. If there is no cleric in the party, she will not be able to use it very often. If there is a cleric in the party, she will not be able to use it that often in battle anyway, as restoration has a casting time of 3 rounds.

Beast Awakening is meant to mitigate the Twin Blade's inability to pounce by giving her more attacks and longer reach, if she so chooses, but it is a two-edged sword. Constitution damage lowers hit points and Fortitude saves, both of which the twin blade will need if she is within 20 feet of too many creatures.
Solution?

You twin blade is a Revenant. Or some other undead.
"Con damage? Whats that?"

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-25, 12:04 PM
Solution?

You twin blade is a Revenant. Or some other undead.
"Con damage? Whats that?"

...


If the twin blade is immune to Constitution damage, she cannot perform a Chaotic Strike

"Chaotic Strike? What's that?"

Elfstone
2011-09-25, 03:15 PM
Missed that clause...

Veklim
2011-09-25, 06:37 PM
Missed that clause...
Heh, I didn't.


Beast Awakening is meant to mitigate the Twin Blade's inability to pounce by giving her more attacks and longer reach, if she so chooses, but it is a two-edged sword. Constitution damage lowers hit points and Fortitude saves, both of which the twin blade will need if she is within 20 feet of too many creatures.
I do realise that, and I'm not saying it's wrong, just wished to point it out and chime my reservations to the thread at large, especially when you look at some weapon enchantments out there. Restoration takes time to cast, but if you're looking for them, you could find items to give a similar/same effect by level 14 I dare say.

You can use Chaotic Strike on 2 consecutive rounds for a drop of only 1HP/HD and -1 to Fort, that's really not much for any melee based character by 14th, especially when you consider how much damage this would lead to with Great Cleave (which you'd be foolish NOT to aim for if playing one of these guys IMO).

Despite this, I still like the class in essence and don't think there's too much wrong with it. Tempted to play about with using this alongside dervish...

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 12:35 PM
I do realise that, and I'm not saying it's wrong, just wished to point it out and chime my reservations to the thread at large, especially when you look at some weapon enchantments out there. Restoration takes time to cast, but if you're looking for them, you could find items to give a similar/same effect by level 14 I dare say.


Yes, but if you're spending your money to shore up your class's weaknesses, how is that any different than a monk's belt or a cloak of flying or even +5 armor?

Spending your WBL on items to improve your character is what you're supposed to do. But you don't have to do it, and if you don't, (like if you wanted to maximize your damage potential and got a pair of +5 weapons and a belt of battle, for instance) you still have that limitation.

Before you go thinking that WBL can fix this, by the way, remember that you have two weapons to maintain, as well as only light armor. That's double the monetary investment of any other melee warrior, and weapon enhancements are not cheap.



You can use Chaotic Strike on 2 consecutive rounds for a drop of only 1HP/HD and -1 to Fort, that's really not much for any melee based character by 14th, especially when you consider how much damage this would lead to with Great Cleave (which you'd be foolish NOT to aim for if playing one of these guys IMO).


Great Cleave is an often undervalued feat. If this class can actually get some use out of it, and a player is willing to spend the feats on it over the Two-Weapon Defense line I posted, then I say good for him. Feats are supposed to make you deadlier in combat, as well as flashier. The fact that they just don't doesn't mean that we should be upset if a class came along that made it so they could actually shine the way they were supposed to.



Despite this, I still like the class in essence and don't think there's too much wrong with it. Tempted to play about with using this alongside dervish...

:smallsmile: Thank you very much.

Hanuman
2011-10-15, 12:49 PM
Care to explain the Tiger class feature? I'm kinda interested in it but get confused in the decode.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 02:37 PM
Care to explain the Tiger class feature? I'm kinda interested in it but get confused in the decode.

Tiger Frenzy or Tiger Striker?

YouLostMe
2011-10-15, 02:44 PM
Yikes, Neo. I disagree with most of the people that classes can't compete here, but it really seems like its in Beguiler territory, especially at those higher levels.

Other than that, I'm bothered by the lack of unique abilities this class can have. Unlike your Brawler, which has a couple different ways to punch in the face, this guy can only stab in the face one way for about half its career (which as far as I ever really play).

I'd love to see the "don't have penalties" done by 3rd or 4th level so we can forget about them, and then focus on unique abilities afterwards.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 02:48 PM
Yikes, Neo. I disagree with most of the people that classes can't compete here, but it really seems like its in Beguiler territory, especially at those higher levels.


Er...what's wrong with the beguiler? :smallconfused:



Other than that, I'm bothered by the lack of unique abilities this class can have. Unlike your Brawler, which has a couple different ways to punch in the face, this guy can only stab in the face one way for about half its career (which as far as I ever really play).


That was the reason behind the Tiger Striker ACF. If you want options, get maneuvers instead of bonuses. If you like simple characters and just want a TWF fix, don't take Tiger Striker.



I'd love to see the "don't have penalties" done by 3rd or 4th level so we can forget about them, and then focus on unique abilities afterwards.

Actually the "don't have penalties" thing is done by 3rd level (Twin Weapon Focus essentially cancels the TWF penalties)

As for unique abilities, the problem with giving a TWF class unique abilities is that the whole reason someone plays a TWF class is to get lots of extra attacks. Giving you an ability that takes a full-round to do one or two attacks with something extra cuts into that, while giving you an ability that adds something extra while keeping your full-attack is overpowered.

Morph Bark
2011-10-15, 06:54 PM
As to falling - a creature only falls 300 feet in the first round, 500 feet in each round after that. Each round that it falls without hitting the ground, it gets another reflex save to resume flying. These are the flying rules that you apparently don't know.

Just to note, but: Umno.

Flying creatures fall 150 ft the first round, 300 ft following rounds. Nonflying creatures fall 500 ft the first round, 1000 ft following rounds. The former is stated in the books and re-stated in Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a). I didn't know about the second part until looking for it just now, but it can be found in Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Part Five) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a).

Hanuman
2011-10-16, 07:34 AM
Just to note, but: Umno.

Flying creatures fall 150 ft the first round, 300 ft following rounds. Nonflying creatures fall 500 ft the first round, 1000 ft following rounds. The former is stated in the books and re-stated in Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a). I didn't know about the second part until looking for it just now, but it can be found in Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Part Five) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a).
I would also make the assertion that you can choose to double that falling speed as the 1000ft/round rule assumes a ragdoll where as you can dive in mid air.

I'm confused about the ACF, perhaps a table would help?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-16, 11:13 AM
I'm confused about the ACF, perhaps a table would help?

It's simple. Just take out the designated class features and put in swordsage maneuvers known and readied, with the disciplines and recovery mechanic in the ACF.

But does it get stances?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 11:16 AM
It's simple. Just take out the designated class features and put in swordsage maneuvers known and readied, with the disciplines and recovery mechanic in the ACF.

But does it get stances?

It does get stances. Can't believe I forgot that. Better add it in. Thanks Swift.

Edit: Okay I didn't forget it. It says "Gains martial maneuver progression like a swordsage. The twin blade may select disciplines and stances from the Iron Heart..."

YouLostMe
2011-10-16, 04:04 PM
Er...what's wrong with the beguiler? :smallconfused:
In that Tier system, the Beguiler is the closest you can get to Tier 2 while still being in Tier 3. Most people don't choose it as a balance point, especially when you can't sandbag.


That was the reason behind the Tiger Striker ACF. If you want options, get maneuvers instead of bonuses. If you like simple characters and just want a TWF fix, don't take Tiger Striker.Well that's all well and good, and I saw that and tipped my hat to it, but that doesn't make the original class less boring. This guy will be hitting things for its early levels. And hitting them and hitting them and hitting them... it's really not intriguing.


Actually the "don't have penalties" thing is done by 3rd level (Twin Weapon Focus essentially cancels the TWF penalties)I meant to say the "give them bonuses" thing. Like, increasing over time to a +8 bonus to hit with two weapons is interesting, but not intriguing, especially since the class is all ready hitting twice with basically every attack and has a pile of bonuses backing it up all the way from level 1.


As for unique abilities, the problem with giving a TWF class unique abilities is that the whole reason someone plays a TWF class is to get lots of extra attacks. Giving you an ability that takes a full-round to do one or two attacks with something extra cuts into that, while giving you an ability that adds something extra while keeping your full-attack is overpowered.
Distracting Strike
On a successful attack roll, your opponent is flat-footed until their next initiative pass.

Contingent Combat
Give up [x] number of strikes. If you attacked next turn, you may make 1 AoO + [x]/2 strikes on the opponent after their attack resolves.

Real Whirlwind Attack
Whirlwind attack with two weapons, same bonus.

I took under a minute on each of those. They're not too hard to think of, not hard for a player to remember (say everyone gets like 3-5 to play with), and they add more tactics than "I hit it with my sword 8 times".

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 04:21 PM
I meant to say the "give them bonuses" thing. Like, increasing over time to a +8 bonus to hit with two weapons is interesting, but not intriguing, especially since the class is all ready hitting twice with basically every attack and has a pile of bonuses backing it up all the way from level 1.


Added Gale Blade at 2nd level and Swords Dance at 5th, giving the normal twin blade something to do with her actions other than attack.