Sorcadins

[Little Brother]

A quick question on them: I know it's not ideal, but if tier 2+ was banned, would it be decent/possible at all to make a warmage, or even dread necromancer/paladin(of slaughter or tyranny for the DN, obviously) build to function like a sorcadin. IF so, what would it look like?

[Hirax]

If you can swing your DM to allowing you to take prestige paladin (of tyranny/slaughter), but let it advance your arcane casting, I think that would be the best route for getting the paladin portion.

[Flickerdart]

A quick question on them: I know it's not ideal, but if tier 2+ was banned, would it be decent/possible at all to make a warmage, or even dread necromancer/paladin(of slaughter or tyranny for the DN, obviously) build to function like a sorcadin. IF so, what would it look like?
Warmage is utterly irredeemable without Rainbow Servant, so you'd be looking at Paladin 2/Warmage 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Abjurant Champion 3 or something - not much of a gish with only three iterative attacks and 10 levels with a d4 hit die.
Dread Necromancer has a really bad spell list for gishing. Most of its spells are debuffs or minion creation spells, because that's what it's supposed to do. You also can't PrC out of it in good faith, because it gets so many nice class features!
If you want a Paladin-based gish without T2 classes, consider mixing it up with Bard/Sublime Chord (this works out quite well actually) or failing that, Suel Arcanamach.

[Little Brother]

Warmage is utterly irredeemable without Rainbow Servant, so you'd be looking at Paladin 2/Warmage 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Abjurant Champion 3 or something - not much of a gish with only three iterative attacks and 10 levels with a d4 hit die.Really? It is tier 4 and doesn't seem that bad.

Dread Necromancer has a really bad spell list for gishing. Most of its spells are debuffs or minion creation spells, because that's what it's supposed to do. You also can't PrC out of it in good faith, because it gets so many nice class features!But aren't debuffs great for gishes? Especially if you nab Gravemist and start fell draining crap. I mean, DNs can pump out a lot of negative levels.

On a side note, is it possible for a DN to get Locate City?

If you want a Paladin-based gish without T2 classes, consider mixing it up with Bard/Sublime Chord (this works out quite well actually) or failing that, Suel Arcanamach.I'm pretty sure that Sublime Chord would effectively be tier 2.

And what is this Seul whatever?

[MeeposFire]

Really? It is tier 4 and doesn't seem that bad.
But aren't debuffs great for gishes? Especially if you nab Gravemist and start fell draining crap. I mean, DNs can pump out a lot of negative levels.

On a side note, is it possible for a DN to get Locate City?
I'm pretty sure that Sublime Chord would effectively be tier 2.

And what is this Seul whatever?

Warmages blast things and little else. Blasting is generally considered ad for gishes unless you play a duskblade (in which case you have little choice). Buffing is the 3e gish modus operendi. Dread necro has a similar problem though it is not blasting but debuff.

Suel is a prc from complete arcane that has its own casting progression and it is a decent base to use for a gish.

I second bard for gishing even without sublime chord. bards rock.

[Hirax]

This just popped into my head, it might be mutable enough for your purposes.
Favored soul3/crusader3/Prestige paladin2/sacred exorcist1/RKV7

[MeeposFire]

This just popped into my head, it might be mutable enough for your purposes.
Favored soul3/crusader3/Prestige paladin2/sacred exorcist1/RKV7

Tier 2 is banned.

[Hirax]

Bah, I could have sworn favored souls were T3, but I guess it make sense that they're not.

[MeeposFire]

Bah, I could have sworn favored souls were T3, but I guess it make sense that they're not.

Well they are a cleric with spontaneous casting and several nice benefits (including more spells known than a sorc). It is very nice just not used much.

[DeAnno]

If you're looking for a T3 blasty-type, Wilder probably has the highest ceiling, and its Cha based so it does the Pally dip well. I think the Wilder has some ACF they use to trade some random class feature for Powers known, so your build would probably look a lot like Pally 2/Wilder 18.

Wilder really is the "Tier 2iest" class of Tier 3, in that it isn't fairly versatile and fairly good like the rest of the T3 classes, its just a T2-powered class that's hedged in by an absurdly low versatility.

[Keld Denar]

I'm gonna go with no. You lack several key defensive spells to keep your bacon from getting fried at high levels, notably Shield (for Abjurant Champion), Greater Mirror Image, and Dragonskin. Thus, your AC will be much lower, and you'll be missing valuable miss chance providers.

Suel Arcanamach actually DOES work really well. Its a partial caster PrC in Complete Arcane. Requires +6 BAB to get into, so you generally lead into it with a full BAB chassis. I like Paladin4/Duskblade2, since Duskblade2 gets you the skills and feat you need for Suel Arcanamach, and Paladin4 gets you Turn Undead which is very useful for a Cha caster gish to power various divine/devotion feats like Divine Might or Law Devotion. Another trick I'm currently using is to enter Suel Arcanamach as an Illumian, and use the NaenHoon sigil word to basically DMM Persist 2 of your Suel spells. At low levels, you can have persistant Shield + Wraithstrike, and at higher levels, Persistant Greater Blinking is pretty slick both for combat and for scouting, while Persistant Greater Mirror Image always regens up to 8 images between combats so you start off with a full compliment. You could also Persist Greater Invisibility, but thats just mean.

[Cerlis]

what he was saying was that most gishes go about being strong in melee and using their spells to make em godly. Basically the spells you'd cast on other party members as a normal wizard. A person decent at melee who has arcane strike (for burning unused spell slots) Is gigantic, made of iron ,super fast and covered in fire is a "proper" gish

(i'm speaking in theory, as im not an expert)

So since a warmage doesnt really buff at all and just blows stuff up, which is simular to what a gish does anyways (hit stuff) is a "bad " class for it.

However, i personally like the idea of "paladin" who instead of using a greatsword uses Lighting as a weapon (as well as the other elements) pretty fun. With Tier 2 and 1 banned its not like your standards are high and your DM will probably look down upon excessive optimization (i'm always baffeled at the idea of "He banned these cus they are OP" "Then do this badass combo that isnt Tier 1 and piss him off and get something ELSE banned as well").

DUring one era in Warcraft i really enjoyed my shaman. as a big hulking orc, i had on a helm and armor that you'd expect on a paladin/warrior (it didnt look like mail, or a leather dress, it LOOKED Like plate armor even if it claimed to be mail). So i looked like a bruiser. a physically powerful warrior who was as good as any other strong warrior. But instead of a sword, i used lighting.

[Coidzor]

And what is this Seul whatever?

Suel Arcanamach, it's the premere "So you were mundane and then suddenly realized you can't have nice things without magic, eh?" class. Not sure why, but it beats out the Assassin in Popularity for PrCs that grant spellcasting but not 9th level spells... And I don't even see what falls in 3rd place...

I believe it's from Complete Arcane. Also it's got a good many of the sweet spot spells for gishing, as that's its intent.

Though Bardadin of Freedom isn't too bad. Be a Kamina, even.

If Psionics are on the table, then you might be interested in a Psi-gish.

Failing that... I think Shugenja are fairly Cha-based divine casters (I think reprinted in Complete Divine from Oriental Adventures) and they're T3.

[Godskook]

1.Suel Arcanamach is the prestige version of Duskblade, iirc. Gish in a can.

2.Sublime Chord is basically a tier 2 bard.

My suggestion is this:

Paladin 2/SLT Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Full BAB 2

Feats:
-Arcane Preparation
-Arcane Strike
-Combat Casting
-Iron Will
-Ascetic Mage
-Shadow Blade
-Divine Might

With that, you'll get Cha to saves and AC, have Dex, Int and Cha to damage, have 17/20 BAB and full Arcanamach casting(ask your DM about progressing prestige class without 'accepting' the casting advancement, since Suel is 'full'), 20% ASF reduction, and a few other goodies.

[Amphetryon]

Most of ToB is Tier 3, isn't it?

Dread Necromancer 8/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 may not be optimal by CharOp standards, but it's pretty lean on sources, functions well at its role, and seems to fit the bill. Spells work on minionmancery and debuffing, you've got healing covered via Black Sand and Necropolitan, and you can make with the kabooms via attacks and your JPM abilities.

[Zombimode]

And I don't even see what falls in 3rd place...

Warmind?

Very nice class features, full bab +its own manifester progression with a steep increase in Power Points (better then the Psychic Warrior). I would take it over the Assassin every day.

[Talya]

DN can make a great gish if you convince your DM to allow you to count Dread Necromancer as a divine caster (or let RKV advance arcane casting). Then go DN 8+/Crusader/RKV (not necessarily in that order). That is how you become "The Lich King/Queen." (Particularly nice in Gestalt, of course.)

[Amphetryon]

DN can make a great gish if you convince your DM to allow you to count Dread Necromancer as a divine caster (or let RKV advance arcane casting). Then go DN 8+/Crusader/RKV (not necessarily in that order). That is how you become "The Lich King/Queen." (Particularly nice in Gestalt, of course.)

Southern Magician should cover that for you if needed.

[Eldariel]

Really? It is tier 4 and doesn't seem that bad.

They don't have any spells a Gish cares about. No good positioning, no good buffs, etc.

[Cog]

Southern Magician should cover that for you if needed.
I don't think any of the feats or class abilities that do the divine/arcane swap actually affect the class itself. They allow you to qualify for casting arcane or divine spells, but since they modify what you can cast rather than what the class itself does, it won't make DN itself a divine class, and so "+1 divine spellcasting class" won't affect it.

[flabort]

Would a spontaneous cleric (UA ACF) be a low enough tier to be allowed, so you can get into prestige paladin?
It gets you the turn undead, and the divine casting to get into the class, and it's spontaneous, or sorcerer-like.
If it's too high tier, would making it a spontaneous cloistered (S-C) cleric help? Or just make it worse?
Your combat capability would suffer, a little, but you'd have another domain on your spells known :smallwink:

S-C cleric 1/Crusader 4/Prestige Paladin 15 would net you spells as an 8th level S-C cleric, and some Crusader manuevers... but swap out most of your prestige paladin levels for something better.
S-C cleric 1/crusader 4/Prestige Paladin 3/X gets you 12 levels to play with the suggestions everyone else gave you.

OK, so my suggestion isn't that helpful. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Urpriest]

If you're going to go for Divine, Shujenja has already been mentioned and is a Cha-based Tier 3, and Earth Shujenja with some divine gish PrCs would make a decent gish, since Earth is the buffing school for Shujenjas. That said, Suel Arcanamach is probably closer to Sorcadin.

[Little Brother]

Whoa, lots of posts. And sorry about the stupid questions, the closest I've ever been to a gish was a bard, who was dropped in the first round of the first encounter by a falchion.

Most of ToB is Tier 3, isn't it?

Dread Necromancer 8/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 may not be optimal by CharOp standards, but it's pretty lean on sources, functions well at its role, and seems to fit the bill. Spells work on minionmancery and debuffing, you've got healing covered via Black Sand and Necropolitan, and you can make with the kabooms via attacks and your JPM abilities.


DN can make a great gish if you convince your DM to allow you to count Dread Necromancer as a divine caster (or let RKV advance arcane casting). Then go DN 8+/Crusader/RKV (not necessarily in that order). That is how you become "The Lich King/Queen." (Particularly nice in Gestalt, of course.)
I'm liking this idea. The necropolitan idea, I'm not sure will fly, but Tomb-Tainted Soul will. My DM is chill for the most part, the banning was something we all agreed on shortly after we discovered fighters suck. It's not even really a rule, just sorta a tradition, or something, at this point, but I think I can get this through.

Southern Magician should cover that for you if needed.
What is this? What book?

Would a spontaneous cleric (UA ACF) be a low enough tier to be allowed, so you can get into prestige paladin?
It gets you the turn undead, and the divine casting to get into the class, and it's spontaneous, or sorcerer-like.
If it's too high tier, would making it a spontaneous cloistered (S-C) cleric help? Or just make it worse?
Your combat capability would suffer, a little, but you'd have another domain on your spells known :smallwink:

S-C cleric 1/Crusader 4/Prestige Paladin 15 would net you spells as an 8th level S-C cleric, and some Crusader manuevers... but swap out most of your prestige paladin levels for something better.
S-C cleric 1/crusader 4/Prestige Paladin 3/X gets you 12 levels to play with the suggestions everyone else gave you.

OK, so my suggestion isn't that helpful. Take it with a grain of salt.
That sounds really cool, but clerics are definitely off-limits. If they weren't, I might try that, sounds cool.

If you're going to go for Divine, Shujenja has already been mentioned and is a Cha-based Tier 3, and Earth Shujenja with some divine gish PrCs would make a decent gish, since Earth is the buffing school for Shujenjas. That said, Suel Arcanamach is probably closer to Sorcadin.I was thinking arcane, but that could work

Overall, not so sure on Seul Arcanamach,'cause of the lack of spells, unless I'm missing something

How does one makes a psi-gish? What is it? I am a psionics fan, and did not realize it was feasible.

[Jude_H]

Is Wilder fair game? It's one of those that seems to jump T2/T3, depending on who you ask.

With Educated Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a), and one or both of the Ghostbreaker class (from Hyperconscious, which is 3rd party, written by Bruce Cordell) or Abjurant Champion psionic adaptation (outlined in the AC entry, but requiring some homebrew), you could have a pretty solid gish build.

Paladin 2/Wilder 5/Ghostbreaker 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Wilder 3 would have:
BA 18
9th level powers (Psychic Reformation allows flexibility between which powers are available)
Turn Undead
Cha to saves and touch AC
Defenses against negative levels
Modified Abjurant Champion abilities, including Super Force-Screen and Inertial Armor (though how the other class features are slightly more ambiguous in their conversion).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psychic Warrior is a psy-gish in can, almost all of the powers on the list are self buffs or help in battle (Strength of my Enemy is lulz-wotrhy and good)

Other option is Ranger/Egoist/(Illithid) Slayer, and of course the Ardent can be a fearsome gish without even multiclassing (though slayer is a good option)

Most of the best powers for gishes are from the Psycometabolism discipline so be sure to check that.

[MeeposFire]

Psychic Warrior is a psy-gish in can, almost all of the powers on the list are self buffs or help in battle (Strength of my Enemy is lulz-wotrhy and good)

Other option is Ranger/Egoist/(Illithid) Slayer, and of course the Ardent can be a fearsome gish without even multiclassing (though slayer is a good option)

Most of the best powers for gishes are from the Psycometabolism discipline so be sure to check that.

psions and ardents are tier 2. Psychic warrior is a good choice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Right forgot about that....

Either case a Psychic Warrior 6/Slayer 10/Psychic Warrior +4 is a good gishy build with some skills (Slayer skill list is a bit lacking but it has some key ones such as the perception ones) and it manages 17 BAB with ML 19 and 19 Power Known

Or Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 10/Psychic Warrior +5 for BAB 18 ML 18 and 18 powers known up to level 6 with a more robust skill list (use Able learner to keep skill points cost to 1:1 for all your career.

[Keld Denar]

He could Tash it up. Monk2/PsyWar18 or something I've been playing around with Monk2/PsyRogue18 would be kinda interesting. You get the 3 main monk abilities (UAS damage, AC bonus, Flurry) progressed fully to 20, while actually getting nice psionic abilities and other features. Monk2 is pretty frontloaded with like, 4 bonus feats, which helps Tashalatora get off the ground.

Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona (and the prereq feat is in the Eberron Campaign Setting).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape Ranger 1/ Wilder 4/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified Mind 6 would probably be suitable in at game where tier 1-2 classes are banned. Wilder isn't listed on the tier list, but if Psion is tier 2, then Wilder should be tier 3. Get Psicrystal Affinity, learn Solicit Psicrystal, Vigor, and Share Pain, and get Expanded Knowledge for Control Body and possibly also Schism. Use Share Pain on your Psicrystal every day, and use Vigor shared with it for a nice HP cushion. You can manifest Control Body targeting yourself and then Solicit Psicrystal, and your Psicrystal can spend its actions every turn making your character full attack, leaving your character's actions and mind free to manifest powers.

Paladin 2/ Warblade 4/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Dragon Disciple 4 is actually quite good. You don't really have enough spell slots to justify taking Arcane Strike but you still have enough to use a few buffs every fight. Get a weapon with a wand chamber (DS) and put a Wand of Wraitstrike there, and get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) for an extremely useful companion. You can still get (Draconic) Polymorph, use Power Attack + Leap Attack, and use wands of Paladin spells. It's basically the standard Sorcadin without 6th-9th level spells, but you get some useful maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge, Wall of Blades, Battle Leader's Charge, and the Diamond Mind save counters.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wild Shape Ranger 1/ Wilder 4/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified Mind 6 would probably be suitable in at game where tier 1-2 classes are banned. Wilder isn't listed on the tier list, but if Psion is tier 2, then Wilder should be tier 3. Get Psicrystal Affinity, learn Solicit Psicrystal, Vigor, and Share Pain, and get Expanded Knowledge for Control Body and possibly also Schism. Use Share Pain on your Psicrystal every day, and use Vigor shared with it for a nice HP cushion. You can manifest Control Body targeting yourself and then Solicit Psicrystal, and your Psicrystal can spend its actions every turn making your character full attack, leaving your character's actions and mind free to manifest powers.

Paladin 2/ Warblade 4/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Dragon Disciple 4 is actually quite good. You don't really have enough spell slots to justify taking Arcane Strike but you still have enough to use a few buffs every fight. Get a weapon with a wand chamber (DS) and put a Wand of Wraitstrike there, and get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) for an extremely useful companion. You can still get (Draconic) Polymorph, use Power Attack + Leap Attack, and use wands of Paladin spells. It's basically the standard Sorcadin without 6th-9th level spells, but you get some useful maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge, Wall of Blades, Leading the Attack, and the Diamond Mind save counters.

Why Wildshape Ranger I don't think fast movement is that worthwile (though considering you aren't getting the combat style I could see how it is a nice perk. And I think the Solicit Psycristal trick for double actions per turn might be too high op for a game that bans Tier 1 and 2 classes.

Other than that solid advice as always.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The problem with Dread Necro/Crusader/RKV is that while he qualifies with Southern Magician, RKV specifically calls out advancing divine casting, which the Dread Necro doesn't do. So RKV would cripple his spells.

There was a build in the Dread Necro guide I wrote called 'The Scarecrow'. Basically, he could Gish it up by virtue of having access to Divine Power (via the Vanity domain) and DMM Persist by virtue of Southern Magician. He also had an aura that would make you Panicked if you failed your save, or Shaken if you succeeded.

Bard is a great gish-in-a-can with valuable party support as well.

Beguiler... doesn't precisely gish but it can provide arcane support while still being a skillmonkey.

Paladin/Suel Archanamach/Abjurant Champion is a fun way to go as well. Great at self-buffing, and hard to land stuff on.

Duskblade is a fun class all by itself. if it could import more spells.

[Talya]

The problem with Dread Necro/Crusader/RKV is that while he qualifies with Southern Magician, RKV specifically calls out advancing divine casting, which the Dread Necro doesn't do. So RKV would cripple his spells.

This is why I specifically called out "If you can convince your DM to move DN casting to divine, or let RKV advance arcane spellcasting."

Southern Magician doesn't help.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a divine casting option, you could go something like Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 1/ Warpriest 3, gaining the Wrath domain initially. It makes for an extremely dangerous melee character who gets plenty of backup options.

[Little Brother]

I should clarify two things: One: I am not trying to play like a munchkin or a jerk. Lawyering, RAW-stretching, and stupid tricks are really fun, and have their place, but not in the particular game I'm talking about.

Two: The specific idea I was thinking of was a more tactical kind of build, casting spells the wizard would in combat, debuffs, control, but still being able to smack people. My DM can be a bit... irritated when it comes to x 1/y 2/z 2/a5/..., and, while I am aware that you can do things such as get a fighter to cast 9th level spells, it isn't the idea here.

I think I could get the RKV through, but I have more data. The campaign is LV 3-13, so what kind of build would be best at those levels

For a divine casting option, you could go something like Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 1/ Warpriest 3, gaining the Wrath domain initially. It makes for an extremely dangerous melee character who gets plenty of backup options.
I am interested. Books?

[Urpriest]

I am interested. Books?

Except for Bone Knight (Five Nations) it's all from Complete Divine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a divine casting option, you could go something like Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 1/ Warpriest 3, gaining the Wrath domain initially. It makes for an extremely dangerous melee character who gets plenty of backup options.

I am interested. Books?

As Urpriest said, everything is in Complete Divine except Bone Knight, which is in Five Nations. Be sure to get Practiced Spellcaster for Divine Crusader, also in Complete Divine. The Wrath domain as well as nearly all the rest is in Spell Compendium, though the Destiny domain in Races of Destiny could be a strong choice. The Shadow domain from the Eberron Campaign Setting would also be extremely useful, you would get access to (Greater) Shadow Conjuration/Evocation and Shades, which could be used to emulate crowd control spells, Contingency, etc. The Slime domain gives you Grease, Black Tentacles, Rock To Mud, and Destruction which is extremely potent with a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell from Complete Arcane.

On second thought, take two Seeker of the Misty Isle and two Warpriest, applying the last +1 level of spellcasting to Paladin but all the domains should still go toward Divine Crusader. Definitely get the Contemplative and the first Seeker of the Misty Isle levels as early as possible. Pick the Wrath domain first, get Travel via Seeker of the Misty Isle, and I'd pick up either Slime or Shadow via Contemplative if you want to use crowd control. Include the special prerequisite for Seeker of the Misty Isle in your character's backstory. You should probably use Wild Elf for the racial requirement. I would also use the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level at Paladin 1 and get a Badge of Valor (MIC) for a +2 Inspire Courage ability.

You could possibly worship an ideal rather than a specific deity, using an alignment choice for Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) to qualify for Divine Crusader. Note that once you've taken Bone Knight you no longer have any code of conduct or alignment restrictions, since Bone Knight gives you back any Paladin abilities you would lose. You would most likely have to go nonlawful with the Wrath domain, but this way you wouldn't have to go searching for some obscure deity who grants all the right domains.

[Little Brother]

I like that a lot, but one question: Is it possible to start casting before LV5? Are the third and fourth paladin levels necessary? Sorry, but I'm AFB and unfamiliar with the Bone Knight. Not necessary at all, but the DM tends to level us slow, and we're probably gonna be done by level 13 or so, so I'd like to get a bit casting more up front. When can you enter Divine Crusader?

(I know a bard or duskblade, but my last 2 gish-in-a-cans both died horribly due to bad luck, and I don't wanna go through that fiasco again.)

Thanks for all the input

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Crusader requires BAB +7.

Bone Knight gives +1 level of spellcasting at 2-10 with 3/4 BAB, the earliest you can take it is at Paladin 4. So at Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4, you have +7 BAB, then future Bone Knight levels can advance Divine Crusader spellcasting. It's a bit of a late game build, but in the early levels you can still use Paladin casting for Rhino's Rush and use Power Attack.


Mystic Ranger from Dragon magazine 336 gives significantly improved spellcasting, you get 0-level spells at 1st level, and each of the next level of spells become available at every even-numbered level, for 5th level spells at 10th level. The spells/day are still somewhat low, but there's enough to afford 2-3 spells per encounter. You can use the feat Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor to be able to prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger spell slots, so you'll get Ranger BAB, skills, saves, and HD, with access to each level of spells at the levels a Sorcerer would gain them.

You'll want to take the feat Magical Training in Player's Guide to Faerun to gain a spellbook and the ability to put new spells into it, since Sword of the Arcane Order requires you to use a spellbook to prepare wizard spells. Mystic Ranger loses proficiency in melee martial weapons and its animal companion, and the combat styles, favored enemy, and other class features all come a bit later. However, you could combine it with the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant and take the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) to fight, and be sure to get Natural Spell at 6th level.


You could actually do the standard Sorcadin with Warmage, and just ignore the blasty spells. Use Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Strike to make use of spell slots that you don't have many good choices in, focus on crowd controls, and switch your first Advanced Learning for Eclectic Learning (PH2) to learn Shield as a 2nd level spell (thanks to Versatile Spellcaster). At 2nd you'll have Whirling Blade and Shield, at 3rd you'll have Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles and the Orb spells at 4th, and the 5th level and higher spells actually have some decent AoE damage choices. Go with the standard Paladin 2/ Warmage 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, and I wouldn't worry too much about Intelligence despite the Warmage spell damage bonus. Get Wands of Bull's Strength and Rhino's Rush, which are on the Paladin spell list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I should clarify two things: One: I am not trying to play like a munchkin or a jerk. Lawyering, RAW-stretching, and stupid tricks are really fun, and have their place, but not in the particular game I'm talking about.

Two: The specific idea I was thinking of was a more tactical kind of build, casting spells the wizard would in combat, debuffs, control, but still being able to smack people. My DM can be a bit... irritated when it comes to x 1/y 2/z 2/a5/..., and, while I am aware that you can do things such as get a fighter to cast 9th level spells, it isn't the idea here.

I think I could get the RKV through, but I have more data. The campaign is LV 3-13, so what kind of build would be best at those levels

I am interested. Books?

If you're looking for tactical advantage, then you're probably talking about Bard. In fact, straight Bard is probably a darn good idea for you, no dipping, no PrC's. You can optimize IC fairly easily, there's a dozen guides on how to do it, complete with Dragonfire Inspiration if you like.

Bards get, in house, Glitterdust, Slow, and Grease for some relatively easy access battlefield control. You also get Silence for a no-save area-effect caster shut-down. Sound Burst, aside from the relatively minor sonic damage, is an area effect Fort or be Stunned, which is NOT a condition you want to have in combat.

They get Mirror Image as a 2nd level spell, and from the Spell Compendium, they get Greater Mirror Image as a 4th level spell. It's flat out better than any AC boosters, and makes it hard to lay a finger on you.

In addition to Inspire Courage, they get Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. If your party has a rogue, he will be your best friend for being able to cast them on him to increase his odds of sneak attacking.

They also get Alter Self, but... well... you were saying you didn't want to get into cheese.

You also get a 3/4 BAB, which is probably about as good as a gish is going to get at the levels you are talking about and still have any casting worth mentioning.

People often discount the Bard. Don't. They can be a significant asset to any party.

[Little Brother]

I talked to a friend, and he got the DM, who likes Pallys, but knows how ba they are, to take the Mystic Ranger progression for Pallys

The current build I'm looking at is:

Pally 4/Bone Knight 4/Divine Crusader 1/Seeker 1/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Seeker 1, which, by my estimate, gives me: 3rd level W/S and Paladin spells, as well as level 6 casting in the Shadow/Wrath(Divine Crusader), Travel(Seeker), Shadow/Slime, and Oracle Domains. My saves, by my estimates, 8/4/4 save and 10/13 BAB. I'm thinking the spellbook feat and Sword of the Arcane Order. Thoughts? Improvements? Problems?

EDIT: Oh, yeah, Schneeky, about bards, every single one I've used died within the first three encounters. Raging orc falchion crit, nasty birds, and otherwise hideous luck. As much as I love bards, I'm done...

EDIT: GAH! Thought I was editing, not posting. Sorry, fixing:

Qestion. Either I am horrible at reading, or it doesn't say, what deities give the Wrath/Shadow domains? Is Slime only Jubilex, or whatever that demon prince is?

[Paul H]

Hi

Shame it's not PF, or it'll be much simpler:

1) Sorc 1/Pal 4/Dragon Disciple. (DD is much better in PF)
2) Bard 1/Pal 4/Dragon Disciple. (You add Sorc bonus spells to Bard spells known).
3) Synthesist 1/Pal 3/Synth xxxx (Become a Gold Dragon with smite)?

Thanks
Paul H

[Piggy Knowles]

Dread Necro can be a solid gish-style class on its own, as was mentioned, or can be combined with a couple of levels in Paladin of Tyranny for better debuffing. Play a damage sponge with some nice debuffing abilities on the side in your early career, and a master of undead hordes at higher levels. Tomb-Tainted Soul, maybe Mounted Combat so that you can ride big nasty undead skeletons down the road. Pick up Ghostly Visage down the road if you want to keep focusing on debuffing, or maybe the Quasit if you've managed to pick up a reliable way of casting Alter Self to share. I prefer the Ghostly Visage personally, but Quasit has some pretty cool tricks up its sleeve.

Warmage really isn't as bad as people like to imply, and is surprisingly capable at lower levels. Sure, it is probably the weakest of the Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage trio, and a straight-up sorcerer is generally better at blasting, but whatever. It's still fun. It is best to think of the warmage as an archer with a higher special effects budget, really. But it doesn't gish very well without shenanigans.

[flabort]

Ah, too bad bard is out.

I was just about to suggest the Divine Bard ACF, which, while MADer than a normal bard (Spells WIS, music CHA), has all the bard spells and abilities, but is advanced by divine PrCs. Unlike a DN. And it's a sweet buffer/battlefield control class, done right.
Unfortunately, it doesn't do minionmancy as good as a DN.

Depending on what you put it with, it could be a pretty good substitution for the sorcerer in scorcadin.