an interesting question

[dohgeku]

i run a 3.0 - 3.5 game with my friends and this question came up one night. i have been pondering this for a while now and i thought i would ask my peers for some insight.

magic granted by the gods is divine magic and magic granted my study and research is arcane. this we all know as fact.

my question is that if a divine being ( one of the gods ) can cast arcane magic, then wouldn't that by defalt become divine magic?

took me a little bit to wrap my head around this one. i like to make the physics in my game have a (seemingly) logical explanation witch is why i am having trouble. any input would be helpfull

[LaZodiac]

i run a 3.0 - 3.5 game with my friends and this question came up one night. i have been pondering this for a while now and i thought i would ask my peers for some insight.

magic granted by the gods is divine magic and magic granted my study and research is arcane. this we all know as fact.

my question is that if a divine being ( one of the gods ) can cast arcane magic, then wouldn't that by defalt become divine magic?

took me a little bit to wrap my head around this one. i like to make the physics in my game have a (seemingly) logical explanation witch is why i am having trouble. any input would be helpfull

Divine Magic stems from the God itself. Arcane magic is pure magical power that anyone can use. That's my take on it anyway.

Of course, since Corellon is the God of Magic, this makes things all the most confusing, but eh.

[Feytalist]

Since the deity isn't actually getting his arcane magic from another deity, there's no reason why it should be divine magic. What becomes weird is when he casts divine magic. He's... granting the spells to himself? Sure, why not.

In the Forgotten Realms, however, Mystra isn't simply the goddess of magic, she IS magic (or, the Weave). So where it becomes fun is that arcane casters are only using magic on her sufferance, since she can choose to cut them off from the weave, making them unable to use magic. So arcane magic is somehow divine as well. Oh, and druids and rangers also need to worship a patron for their magic to work. So they're also getting their nature magic from the gods.

This is why I love FR. It's so delightfully unconventional.

[Xuc Xac]

D&D invented the distinction between arcane and divine magic. Before the cleric class was created, magic was just magic. Outside of D&D, magic is still just magic.

If you need a physics analogy to help you wrap your head around it, think of it this way: magic is like electricity. Arcane is AC and divine is DC. They're both made of the same stuff but they aren't interchangeable, although you can convert one into the other if you know what you're doing.

[Almagesto]

I think I agree more with LaZodiac here. Arcane Magic is flowing through the planes; an uncontrollable force that - allegedly - spawned from chaos itself after the worlds were shaped. Divine Magic is granted by the gods themselves. If a god casts an arcane spell it's because he's - like many magic users - twisting the fabric of the universe to his liking through sheer use of his knowledge and mental prowess. When a god casts a divine spell, he is merely using his power to shape the reality around him.

[Canon sources: Fiend Folio I and II, Deities and Demigods, Players' Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide]

[dohgeku]

thanks for the help. i figured out what i needed. as for what Xuc Xac said, im going to have my wizards god, boccob, make him a DC-AC converter.

[Killer Angel]

im going to have my wizards god, boccob, make him a DC-AC converter.

Instead, make Him an AC-DC converter, and He'll ROCK!

...sorry, couldn't resist... :smalltongue:

[KerfuffleMach2]

Well...from my kind of limited knowledge on such things...I would say that if one had to learn it, it would be Arcane. If one can just do it, like a natural ability, then it's Divine.

That's how I see it, anyways.

[dehro]

Instead, make Him an AC-DC converter, and He'll ROCK!

...sorry, couldn't resist... :smalltongue:

took the words right out of my mouth... good man :smallwink:

The way I see it, gods are vats of flavoured custard, floating in a bigger pool of custard.
When they're asked nicely, the gods open their lids and spill a little custard on their followers. Of course they have infinite custard of their own, because the vats are bigger on the inside, like a Tardis.
Arcane magic users simply dip their spoon in the outer custard, which isn't flavoured the way divine custard is flavoured. A good mage can add some of his own flavour to the generic custard brand.
The god of magic is a reverse vase. It has the custard on the outside..
It's that gloopy creature that prevents the outer custard from spilling over the edge of the pool..and snatches your spoon away from you if you dip it too deeply in the outer custard.
When a god wants to do magic he can either kick about some of the outer custard or spill some of his own. Because custard gods are just that awesome.
A god of magic doing magic will be using generic custard, but it will come in small vats trademarked "god of magic" at the bottom...it looks like generic custard, but it isn't.

a cosmological theory you can eat
if nothing else, it makes for a tasty demonstration

[Almagesto]

Instead, make Him an AC-DC converter, and He'll ROCK!

...sorry, couldn't resist... :smalltongue:

:smile: Amazing comment, I wouldn't have resisted as well.

[drakir_nosslin]

Well...from my kind of limited knowledge on such things...I would say that if one had to learn it, it would be Arcane. If one can just do it, like a natural ability, then it's Divine.

That's how I see it, anyways.

Say that to the sorcerer who was born with arcane magic in her blood.

Also, this belongs in the roleplaying section.

[Worlok]

Woooah, guys... Arcane Casting and Divine Casting... AC and DC... AC/DC... You may be on to something there - The questions that remain would thus be: How many mystic theurges does it take to power an electric guitar? How do bards figure into the picture? Does it take more wizards or more clerics to screw in power a lightbulb? What is a Sublime Chord, exactly? Do Seekers of the Song not get spells because they lost their thunder? We need research, POST HASTE! :smalleek:

[Killer Angel]

Amazing comment, I wouldn't have resisted as well.

It was an easy call... :smallbiggrin:


The questions that remain would thus be: How many mystic theurges does it take to power an electric guitar? How do bards figure into the picture? Does it take more wizards or more clerics to screw in power a lightbulb? What is a Sublime Chord, exactly? Do Seekers of the Song not get spells because they lost their thunder? We need research, POST HASTE! :smalleek:

Anyway, an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil supplies the light show. :smallwink:

[DebugAMP]

Here's the way I always thought of things, and this goes a bit beyond the question of divine vs arcane...

First there is the realm. The plane, the universe, multiverse, however you want to refer to it. It is reality. It has a natural balance, it has energies, and it resists change that deviates from its balance.

Next there are the gods. They are the beings who have gotten so mighty that they can shape reality. They don't think about their actions, they just do it. They decide that reality should have divine fire 10 feet away from them and it happens. To them it is just as lifting a heavy weight. They flex their proverbial muscles and bright energy flows to shape reality. A cleric's belief fuels its deity's strength and allows for a greater variety of favors. As a cleric builds his array of powers he does so because his faith has become so deep that his deity gains more power and takes more notice of his faithful servant.

Then there are the arcanists. They study reality and have found the path of least resistance to accomplish their ends. They speak to reality. A wizard looks reality in the eye and says "Hey reality... old buddy... would you mind separating these air molecules into their elemental compounds and putting a small spark here? Just a little favor, nothing to heavy." A few seconds later a fireball erupts. Each favor from good ol' reality costs him his life's energy. A sorcerer stares reality in the eye and says "Hey reality, you've got it wrong... The air is supposed to be formulated like this..." <insert fireball here>. As the wizard grows older and wiser he finds more and more creative ways to rearrange reality in simple ways to great effect, and a sorcerer gets more and more shrewd at bluffing reality to do what he wants.

The effect is the same... the energy is the same... the method of accessing it is just a little different.

Let me know what you think of this idea and if you have anything to expand on it with. Obviously the next question is Psionics, but my rationalization for them isn't quite post worthy (yet).

[Almagesto]

Here's the way I always thought of things, and this goes a bit beyond the question of divine vs arcane...

First there is the realm. The plane, the universe, multiverse, however you want to refer to it. It is reality. It has a natural balance, it has energies, and it resists change that deviates from its balance.

Next there are the gods. They are the beings who have gotten so mighty that they can shape reality. They don't think about their actions, they just do it. They decide that reality should have divine fire 10 feet away from them and it happens. To them it is just as lifting a heavy weight. They flex their proverbial muscles and bright energy flows to shape reality. A cleric's belief fuels its deity's strength and allows for a greater variety of favors. As a cleric builds his array of powers he does so because his faith has become so deep that his deity gains more power and takes more notice of his faithful servant.

Then there are the arcanists. They study reality and have found the path of least resistance to accomplish their ends. They speak to reality. A wizard looks reality in the eye and says "Hey reality... old buddy... would you mind separating these air molecules into their elemental compounds and putting a small spark here? Just a little favor, nothing to heavy." A few seconds later a fireball erupts. Each favor from good ol' reality costs him his life's energy. A sorcerer stares reality in the eye and says "Hey reality, you've got it wrong... The air is supposed to be formulated like this..." <insert fireball here>. As the wizard grows older and wiser he finds more and more creative ways to rearrange reality in simple ways to great effect, and a sorcerer gets more and more shrewd at bluffing reality to do what he wants.

The effect is the same... the energy is the same... the method of accessing it is just a little different.

Let me know what you think of this idea and if you have anything to expand on it with. Obviously the next question is Psionics, but my rationalization for them isn't quite post worthy (yet).


That, however, is not canonical.

[BlueInc]

Not cannon, but this is how I like to think about it:

Divine magic is magic that is channeled; it is drawn from a source (whether a god, the power of belief, the earth) and moves through the caster as a conduit.

Psionics are magic that is magic from within. The other two need to go outside of themselves to find power, while psionics flow from control, focus, and force of will.

...and now I can't think of how Arcane works XD

[Gotterdammerung]

It is just one of the many arbitrary distinctions in D&D. They work to separate things and create boundaries. But they don't make sense when held under close scrutiny. There is a lot of stuff like this, in both Canon and Non-canon. It is best not to think about it. Off the top of my head, The Alignment System, The Class Tier Rating System, The Level Adjustment Rules, and which items make the Exotic weapon list are all good examples.

[Username_too_lo]

It is just one of the many arbitrary distinctions in D&D. They work to separate things and create boundaries. But they don't make sense when held under close scrutiny. There is a lot of stuff like this, in both Canon and Non-canon. It is best not to think about it. Off the top of my head, The Alignment System, The Class Tier Rating System, The Level Adjustment Rules, and which items make the Exotic weapon list are all good examples.

My personal favourite is racial weapon proficiencies.

"Congratulations, Mr & Mrs Elf - it's a boy, who is automatically proficient with a longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow!"

[Gotterdammerung]

My personal favourite is racial weapon proficiencies.

"Congratulations, Mr & Mrs Elf - it's a boy, who is automatically proficient with a longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow!"

"But Not a elven Courtblade, even though it is one of our weapons and it requires the same training to wield as a sword or a rapier would."

[Seharvepernfan]

My personal favourite is racial weapon proficiencies.

"Congratulations, Mr & Mrs Elf - it's a boy, who is automatically proficient with a longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow! and any other weapons that may suddenly exist in the future with our species name as part of their title"

boyisurelovewhitetext

[TuggyNE]

The way I see it, gods are vats of flavoured custard, floating in a bigger pool of custard.
When they're asked nicely, the gods open their lids and spill a little custard on their followers. Of course they have infinite custard of their own, because the vats are bigger on the inside, like a Tardis.
Arcane magic users simply dip their spoon in the outer custard, which isn't flavoured the way divine custard is flavoured. A good mage can add some of his own flavour to the generic custard brand.
The god of magic is a reverse vase. It has the custard on the outside..
It's that gloopy creature that prevents the outer custard from spilling over the edge of the pool..and snatches your spoon away from you if you dip it too deeply in the outer custard.
When a god wants to do magic he can either kick about some of the outer custard or spill some of his own. Because custard gods are just that awesome.
A god of magic doing magic will be using generic custard, but it will come in small vats trademarked "god of magic" at the bottom...it looks like generic custard, but it isn't.

This is just so awesome, and so unexpected, it makes me smile. :smallcool:

[KillianHawkeye]

@Seharvepernfan: But that's actually not the case. Elves don't get those proficiencies just because they have the word "elven" in the name.

[Sith_Happens]

My personal favourite is racial weapon proficiencies.

"Congratulations, Mr & Mrs Elf - it's a boy, who is automatically proficient with a longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow!"

I don't think they're actually born with the proficiencies so much as they manage to sneak some weapons training into the 110 years they have to wait before becoming player characters.:smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Divine Magic doesn't come from the gods (godless Clerics can use it just fine), but it's filtered through them (usually). It's just a magic source the gods have a near monopoly on. Arcane Magic evidently isn't filtered in that way... it's just sort of out there, available to use. Psionics use a different power source, and Artificers evidently use yet another.

JaronK

[Seharvepernfan]

@Seharvepernfan: But that's actually not the case. Elves don't get those proficiencies just because they have the word "elven" in the name.

I know, I was being satirical. Read the post above mine.

[KillianHawkeye]

I know, I was being satirical. Read the post above mine.

I did read it, and apparently your satire was not obvious enough to me. Try using a smiley next time? :smallwink:

[Andreaz]

The distinction is weirder than that. While gods can provide divine magic, gods are not the only source of divine magic. In fact, no core class is even required to get their divine magic from a god, and certain classes (Geomancer) can even convert one into the other at will.