Darth Vader Discussion

[Sparrow]

Okay, I'm not sure if this belongs here or the Media Discussions Forum, but here I go.

So, I was playing Soul Caliber IV with my friend as Darth Vader, and the question suddenly arose. What would happen if someone used an EMP near Darth Vader, since more than half of him is made of robotics?

[Tirian]

I think you guessed wrong about the forum, but the mods will just switch you in that case. :smallsmile:

Assuming that electronics works the same way in a galaxy far far away as it does here, an EMP would probably kill Darth Vader. And if you were to plan such a thing in the Star Wars universe, since a one-shot cheap kill against the third most-powerful Force user in the galaxy is so unfair, he'd feel a great disturbance in the Force ahead of time and stop you before you carried it out.

[Comrade]

the third most-powerful Force user in the galaxy

Lest I sound uneducated in the ways of Star Wars, who are the second and most powerful force users in the galaxy :v

[Mutant Sheep]

Lest I sound uneducated in the ways of Star Wars, who are the second and most powerful force users in the galaxy :v

Yoda..... and.... Emperor? Yoda and Obiwan's ghost? Qui-gon's qhost and Yoda? Yoda and the Emperor?

[Mauve Shirt]

Yoda..... and.... Emperor? Yoda and Obiwan's ghost? Qui-gon's qhost and Yoda? Yoda and the Emperor?

Emperor and Luke.

[Comrade]

Yoda..... and.... Emperor? Yoda and Obiwan's ghost? Qui-gon's qhost and Yoda? Yoda and the Emperor?

Psssh, Darth Nihilus could wipe the floor with all of them together.

Also he looks cooler.

[Mystic Muse]

Psssh, Darth Nihilus could wipe the floor with all of them together.

Also he looks cooler.

And he existed 4,000 years before any of them.

They mean "Most powerful at the time" not "Most powerful period."

[Comrade]

And he existed 4,000 years before any of them.

They mean "Most powerful at the time" not "Most powerful period."

Oh, aye. Then I suppose t'would be the Emperor.

[Lord Blace]

And he existed 4,000 years before any of them.

They mean "Most powerful at the time" not "Most powerful period."

Except that word of god is Palpy is the most powerful sith ever, and Luke is the most powerful force user ever.

[Mewtarthio]

Except that word of god is Palpy is the most powerful sith ever, and Luke is the most powerful force user ever.

That may be what Lucas intended, but have you seen the power creep in the EU?

[Comrade]

Except that word of god is Palpy is the most powerful sith ever, and Luke is the most powerful force user ever.

Wait, who ever said that and what were they on ._.

(I used to go on Wookiepedia whenever I got bored and had a computer lying around...so I seen some damn powerful sith and some damn powerful force users :v)

[Lord Blace]

Wait, who ever said that and what were they on ._.

(I used to go on Wookiepedia whenever I got bored and had a computer lying around...so I seen some damn powerful sith and some damn powerful force users :v)

Who said it? GL. And as much as a lot of people dislike a lot of things he does with HIS ip (myself included), it is his ip.

Edit:


That may be what Lucas intended, but have you seen the power creep in the EU?

It's not just what he intended, it's what he outright said.

[Comrade]

Who said it? GL. And as much as a lot of people dislike a lot of things he does with HIS ip (myself included), it is his ip.

Meh, even if he said so, t'ain't what has been demonstrated. Naga Sadow destroyed stars purely with the power of the force, while the Emperor required a huge hunk of metal (which was twice destroyed) to accomplish the same effect on planets.

[Tirian]

Emperor and Luke.

I was thinking the Emperor and Yoda. Luke grew to be more powerful than Vader, but that was all in the EU.

[Mystic Muse]

Meh, even if he said so, t'ain't what has been demonstrated. Naga Sadow destroyed stars purely with the power of the force, while the Emperor required a huge hunk of metal (which was twice destroyed) to accomplish the same effect on planets.

Yeah. As much as I dislike "Death of the Author" he has to ignore a lot of other stuff for that to be true.

[Kindablue]

This derailed fast. Anyway, you can protect solid state computers from EMPs, but that doesn't matter because Vader uses vacuum tubes, which aren't as easily destroyed that way.

[The Glyphstone]

Meh, even if he said so, t'ain't what has been demonstrated. Naga Sadow destroyed stars purely with the power of the force, while the Emperor required a huge hunk of metal (which was twice destroyed) to accomplish the same effect on planets.

The thing is, by Lucas's standards, he's still right. He's on record as saying that he considers all EU material to be an alternate universe of sorts; in his personal continuity, there are only the movies and their novelizations, while the EU continuity includes that plus all the other authors.

[KillianHawkeye]

What would happen if someone used an EMP near Darth Vader, since more than half of him is made of robotics?

I'm pretty sure that this is how he actually died in Return of the Jedi. He was hit by backlash from the Emperor's lightning attack and it fried his circuits. I read somewhere that this vulnerability is why Vader never used Force Lightning himself.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yeah, the idea that GL disregards the EU canon is patently obvious when one takes into consideration the idea that GL believes Vader was destined to destroy the Sith. How many Sith have there been since then? :smallamused:

[Sparrow]

I believe there was another. But she eventually defected and married luke.

[The Glyphstone]

Mara Jade wasn't a full-on Sith, was she?

[Comrade]

Mara Jade wasn't a full-on Sith, was she?

She was an Emperor's Hand. So no, not really.

[Sparrow]

Well, about thirty years after the Battle of Yavin a surviving Jedi turned to the dark side and begin to rebuild the sith order. his name was Darth Krayt. Unless my knowledge is incorrect.

[GoblinArchmage]

Am I the only person who disregards everything except for the movies as being "official." Really, all of the EU stuff is basically legal fan fiction.

[The Glyphstone]

Am I the only person who disregards everything except for the movies as being "official." Really, all of the EU stuff is basically legal fan fiction.

Considering that's effectively word-for-word what George Lucas's official opinion is (As noted above), no, you're not alone.

[Comrade]

Am I the only person who disregards everything except for the movies as being "official." Really, all of the EU stuff is basically legal fan fiction.

Probably. I regard the Extended Universe as legit because...well, it's more interesting than only considering the paltry measure of time the movies cover in comparison to the EU.

[Sparrow]

It gives star wars something extra. It gives us more information to your favorite galaxy far far away.

[Weezer]

Mara Jade wasn't a full-on Sith, was she?

She was most definitely not a Sith, when under Palapitine's influnce she used some minor Force powers, but wasn't really aware of them as Force skills, he kept her in the dark so as not to create a threat to him.

But yes there have been a number of Sith since Vader/Palpy, the most recent/prominent was Darth Caedus. There was also Vegere and Lumiya IIRC (spelling is probably totally wrong).

[SiuiS]

EDIT: and yes, Vader couldn't use the force lightning due to his robotic limbs, since the lightning would emanate from the end of his fleshy parts (and then blow up his armor). It's one of those tidbits that has been thrown around in the occasional book, even being listed in a starwars d20 sourcebook somewhere.
I'm not sure though, since it's stated in third party sources and I'm arguing 3rd doesn't trump 1st. Let's just hope George never says anything on the subject :smallwink:


Yeah. As much as I dislike "Death of the Author" he has to ignore a lot of other stuff for that to be true.

But if you think about it, all of that stuff that has to be ignored is --


Am I the only person who disregards everything except for the movies as being "official." Really, all of the EU stuff is basically legal fan fiction.

Legal fanfiction, aye.
I've been on both sides of this kind of debate, but I have to say this is one instance where George is right (:smalleek:) and everyone else messed up because they wanted to change the way things go.


Probably. I regard the Extended Universe as legit because...well, it's more interesting than only considering the paltry measure of time the movies cover in comparison to the EU.

It is interesting in it's own right, but it's almost not even the same story. The original three movies are one story of a genre, and the original three plus everything else is a different story and genre whih just so happens to share similar characters, names, likenesses and setting.

[Mystic Muse]

But if you think about it, all of that stuff that has to be ignored is --



Legal fanfiction, aye.

I'll grant you that. I do kinda like some of the "Legal Fanfiction" though.

[SiuiS]

I'll grant you that. I do kinda like some of the "Legal Fanfiction" though.

Oh certainly, it is a very interesting story. My trouble comes when not only does it pull a genre shift, going from space opera to dark and brooding scifi pulp stories, it retroactively throws that dark pulpiness over the original stories as well..

Spoiler'd because I'm veering horrific off topic.

For the first three, starwars was a drama of love and heroism in space, and the SW universe was a backdrop but unimportant to the overall story.

Now Lucasarts puts more effort into the background than into the stories themselves (which is why I think the new trilogy felt so hollow). Now instead of a good story that just so happens to be in SWUniverse, we have a SWUniverse that just so happens to have good stories.

It makes me sad too, because when I was younger I was all over the awesome Jedi superhero stuff they're doing now. Now that I'm old enough to buy and use the stuff, I don't like it as much XD

[Battleship789]

It is a pretty good question...I think that a sufficiently powerful emp would definitely knock out his helmet (based on the glimpse we get of it in ep3) and probably his breathing and movement systems (though they should be at least mildly protected against that sort of thing, unless Palpy designed it to be weak against emp/force lightning, which is quite possible.)

/offtopic

If you go off of raw Force potential, under Lucas' statements, then it goes Anakin, then Palpy/Yoda, with Palpy being slightly stronger, then suit Vader, followed by everyone else. Luke's strength is debatable, since he is the son of Anakin and doesn't have a suit (but a mechanical hand) but we don't really see much of how strong he could be (if we discount the EU,) but I think most would put him around non-suit Anakin, either above or below, depending on how you think heredity influences inherent Force strength.

If you include the EU, then the order of demonstrated power is thus: Abeloth >>>> Luke, followed by a hodgepodge of other powerful Sith Lords, Jedi masters and "cheaters," those who aren't normally that strong but have something increasing their strength (best examples I can think of is UnuThul, Lomi Plo and Welk), in no particular order: Palpy, Yoda, Revan/Malik, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Nihilus, Kreia (maybe), Krayt, Exar Kun (maybe), Bane, Lord Hoth (maybe, his character isn't fleshed out very much), the Exile (maybe), Mace Windu (maybe), and then other characters who are very powerful, but not on the same level: Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Jaden Korr, Leia, Mara Jade, Jacen and Jaina (Jacen may be a step higher, depending on your opinion), and most of the named Sith Lords and Jedi masters...of course YMMV...

[Arcane_Secrets]

This derailed fast. Anyway, you can protect solid state computers from EMPs, but that doesn't matter because Vader uses vacuum tubes, which aren't as easily destroyed that way.

That's what I was sort of thinking too. The Emperor would've guessed that Vader would be target for assassination and would've probably used components that aren't vulnerable to EMP. If Vader can deflect blaster shots (canonical)-provided he knows its coming, perhaps he can use the Force to alleviate the effects of an EMP.

The Emperor being who he is as well...I suspect he also developed weapons that'd penetrate Vader's circuitry either when he was building him or shortly afterwards.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh certainly, it is a very interesting story. My trouble comes when not only does it pull a genre shift, going from space opera to dark and brooding scifi pulp stories, it retroactively throws that dark pulpiness over the original stories as well..

Spoiler'd because I'm veering horrific off topic.

For the first three, starwars was a drama of love and heroism in space, and the SW universe was a backdrop but unimportant to the overall story.

Now Lucasarts puts more effort into the background than into the stories themselves (which is why I think the new trilogy felt so hollow). Now instead of a good story that just so happens to be in SWUniverse, we have a SWUniverse that just so happens to have good stories.

It makes me sad too, because when I was younger I was all over the awesome Jedi superhero stuff they're doing now. Now that I'm old enough to buy and use the stuff, I don't like it as much XD
I hear you there. Part of why I loved Star Wars as a kid and why I still like it now is because unlike a lot of other sci-fi stories it had that clean sense of optimism. That even though evil was strong and could overturn everything, good would come through in the end. Looking at a lot of the EU novels today, it just seems like they're going out of their way to destroy that sense of optimism. The Yuuzhan Vong. The whole Darth Caedus thing. Luke and his son being exiled to wander the galaxy while the rest of the Jedi develop a kind of super Capgras syndrome. What the heck?! When did Star Wars get so depressing?!

Makes me wanna play the KOTOR games again to make me feel like a REAL Jedi (I never play the Dark Side in a Star Wars game. Not only does it make me feel bad on a personal level, but it also just doesn't seem like "Star Wars.").

[The Glyphstone]

But Tie Fighter was way better than X-Wing...

[Tirian]

But Tie Fighter was way better than X-Wing...

Tie Fighter was way better than everything. *checks GOG* Damn damn damn! When will they upgrade it to work on modern machines??!!?>? It's got my favorite Star Wars quote ever: "Do not let you anger blind you. Rather, let it CONSUME you and in the purity of your hatred you will find the deaths of your enemies." Ahhhhh, good times. :smallsmile:

But even Tie Fighter was optimistic. Your goal was to do your part in your unarmored tin can to protect the security and order of the galaxy from pirates and traitors and, oh yeah, Rebel scum. And you got to win in the end.

[Comrade]

I liked The Empire Strikes Back (remember that game? Made in '82? :v)

...'cos no matter what you did, you always lost in the end :D

[The Succubus]

Some of the best EU story telling for me was in Dark Forces. Sure, it might have only been a slightly modified Doom clone but the gameplay rocked and the storyline was rock solid. If there was a candidate to turn EU into canon, this'd get my vote.

[Urist]

Some of the best EU story telling for me was in Dark Forces. Sure, it might have only been a slightly modified Doom clone but the gameplay rocked and the storyline was rock solid. If there was a candidate to turn EU into canon, this'd get my vote.

Then be happy, for it is already canon(C-Canon, but still). People are forgetting that Star Wars has a clear scale of canon-ness, and that the EU does fall on it. So if it doesn't contradict things from the movies, it is in fact canon.

[Gaius Marius]

I actually like the different styles of Star Wars storylines (less so when they try to force them to mix).

It's like Batman. You can have campy batman, depressing batman, psycho Batman, scary batman (stories, by the way). Just take what you want in it and ignore te rest. You are usually introduced to what you need to know.

I myself kinda disliked the Vong invasion. Tried it, and it didn't do me much. But I absolutely devored the Legacy comic books.

Kinda disliked when they tried to force some KOTOR elements into Legacy. The themes and style are just too different to work properly.

As for George Lucas: I dont care what he says. The man had a weird idea for a sci-fi/fantastic setting, and through work and improvement through opposition (when he wasnt given the keys to the Franchise) the end result was Star Wars.

Read: the Star Wars we love and made GL rich isn't the Storyline/setting GL intended. So I don't see why he is supposed to be such an authority on this setting that isn't his mindchild alone. Sure, he might be the creative guy who imagined the ORIGINAL concept, but our first taste of the stuff was also the result of a lot of other People's contribution. We all know the trainwreck that occurs when GL is left to his own device.

Ergo, if you accept that the real genius of Star Wars isn't GL's alone, you should accept that what makes the entirety of the Star Wars Verse so great isn't purely Lucas's creative contribution. If it was left to George alone, STAR WARS WOULD SUCK.

So EU is valid for me, and **** George Lucas's arrogance.

[Devonix]

I watched the Star Wars movies growing up. Loved them and then began reading with the Crystal Star. Young Jedi Knighs was one of the first book series I ever got into.

To me the EU IS Starwars. and the Prequles and Clone wars are the fanfic

[hamishspence]

Then be happy, for it is already canon(C-Canon, but still). People are forgetting that Star Wars has a clear scale of canon-ness, and that the EU does fall on it. So if it doesn't contradict things from the movies, it is in fact canon.

Sometimes C-canon sources can override G-canon non-movie ones.

For example- in the G-canon RoTJ novelization, Endor had no planet- there was just the moon.

Later, it was clarified that there is, in fact, a planet.

[Gnoman]

That's what I was sort of thinking too. The Emperor would've guessed that Vader would be target for assassination and would've probably used components that aren't vulnerable to EMP. If Vader can deflect blaster shots (canonical)-provided he knows its coming, perhaps he can use the Force to alleviate the effects of an EMP.

The Emperor being who he is as well...I suspect he also developed weapons that'd penetrate Vader's circuitry either when he was building him or shortly afterwards.

According to I, Jedi, (possibly confirmed by Word Of God to be what was used on Bespin), Vader has the power to absorb any form of energy, be it fire, electricity, plasma, whatever. Since Vader is supposed to be far more powerful than Corran Horn (IIRC the only other character to have said ability), then he could concievably withstand truly massive amounts of energy with his body. The trouble is, It probably wouldn't protect his armor, (Horn used the power to survive the fireball of a massive explosion unharmed, but his clothes and hair were burned away) unless the Sith Alchemy used in it's construction allows him to bond with it somehow.

[hamishspence]

Corran's family have a natural talent for it- it's not clear if Vader is quite as skilled in the technique. I've seen it argued that it was the armour of the glove, rather than direct absorption, that dealt with that blaster bolt.

The skill does appear on other occasions- but may require more conscious effort:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Absorb

[Yora]

Mara Jade wasn't a full-on Sith, was she?

Well, be EU, and Mara is EU, there can be only two Sith. But that has never stopped any sith lords from having lots of dark side force users training under them. They just don't get to wear that nice shiny sith badge.

[hamishspence]

And recently it turns out there's a "Sith tradition" separate from the Rule of Two, that's been around for 5000 years compared to the RoT's 1000.

Some dark side traditions are Sith spin offs, like the "prophets of the dark side" founded by a Sith Lord who rejected the RoT.

[Thialfi]

My son absolutely loves the Star Wars - The Clone Wars cartoons. They use EMP grenades all the time to take out small groups of droids. You never see them take out large groups with EMP bombs making me think that the energy shields that both sides use protect against large scale EMP attacks.

This means that the only times an EMP would take out Darth Vader are the same times regular old bombs would work just as well.

[Aotrs Commander]

Tie Fighter was way better than everything.

Yes, yes it was. And it is singularly responsible for making me an Imperial Loyalist forever.

(My favourite line was "for the glory of the Empire! Destroy everything!" Especially coming, as it did, out of your briefing officer for no real appaent reason...)



I like a fair chunk of the EU, though I stopped following the when the vong showed up (and no, I do not consider them worh either capitalising or even be arsed to look up the spelling). I tried again with the Legacy series, but got bored half way through Karen Traviss's first book in the sequence (which, knowing what I do know now, did explain why in the heck Boba Fett showed up on an apprently unrelated sidequest...)

Zhan, Stackpole and Alliston are by far the best EU writers, though (with the TIE Fighter and KotR 1+2 coming close behind.)

And the Clone Wars CGI is frakkin' awesome. Asoka is like, the only jedi aside from Mace Windu I'd be sorry to see die.

[Grif]

I like a fair chunk of the EU, though I stopped following the when the vong showed up (and no, I do not consider them worh either capitalising or even be arsed to look up the spelling). I tried again with the Legacy series, but got bored half way through Karen Traviss's first book in the sequence (which, knowing what I do know now, did explain why in the heck Boba Fett showed up on an apprently unrelated sidequest...)

Zhan, Stackpole and Alliston are by far the best EU writers, though (with the TIE Fighter and KotR 1+2 coming close behind.)

And the Clone Wars CGI is frakkin' awesome. Asoka is like, the only jedi aside from Mace Windu I'd be sorry to see die.

Same here. EU Star Wars took a sharp turn down grimdark alley with the death of Chewbecca. I nearly threw the book against the wall when I read that scene.

On Karen Traviss, I have read so much about her constant wanking about Mandalorians on stardestroyer.net that I can no longer pick up her books without being reminded of how she managed to destroy that part of EU SW lore for me.

[pendell]

WRT Palpatine being the "most powerful force user ever".

The fourth wall explanation of power creep in the EU is probably correct, but it is not the only one.

Who is more powerful, the Sith Lord who destroys a sun with the power of his mind, or the Sith Lord who successfully manipulates two sides of a galactic war into giving him absolute power over the galaxy? Over a timespan of thirty years?

Then continues to rule the entire galaxy for another thirty?

The way I see it, the Emperor was a force-powered politician and not so much into direct damage. Subtlety and manipulation from behind the scenes. Sort of like the EU's Battle Meditation force ability taken up to another order of magnitude, to the point where he subtlety influences the course of the entire galaxy.

In the novelization of ROTJ, he is mentioned in his meditation as considering that he WAS the Empire, that he WAS the universe. That the entire galactic empire was sort of a body, with individual sentient beings comprising the cells, and he himself as the brain controlling all of it.

What is blowing up a star compared to that? Even non-force users in the EU can blow up a sun given enough time and resources to build a doomsday weapon. Commanding, dominating and influencing an entire galaxy is another thing entirely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lord Blace]

I actually like the different styles of Star Wars storylines (less so when they try to force them to mix).

It's like Batman. You can have campy batman, depressing batman, psycho Batman, scary batman (stories, by the way). Just take what you want in it and ignore te rest. You are usually introduced to what you need to know.

I myself kinda disliked the Vong invasion. Tried it, and it didn't do me much. But I absolutely devored the Legacy comic books.

Kinda disliked when they tried to force some KOTOR elements into Legacy. The themes and style are just too different to work properly.

As for George Lucas: I dont care what he says. The man had a weird idea for a sci-fi/fantastic setting, and through work and improvement through opposition (when he wasnt given the keys to the Franchise) the end result was Star Wars.

Read: the Star Wars we love and made GL rich isn't the Storyline/setting GL intended. So I don't see why he is supposed to be such an authority on this setting that isn't his mindchild alone. Sure, he might be the creative guy who imagined the ORIGINAL concept, but our first taste of the stuff was also the result of a lot of other People's contribution. We all know the trainwreck that occurs when GL is left to his own device.

Ergo, if you accept that the real genius of Star Wars isn't GL's alone, you should accept that what makes the entirety of the Star Wars Verse so great isn't purely Lucas's creative contribution. If it was left to George alone, STAR WARS WOULD SUCK.

So EU is valid for me, and **** George Lucas's arrogance.

The problem is, is that GL by all rights and laws OWNS the ip. It's his thing. Have your own personal canon? ME TOO! But I don't pretend it's going to be what the next person would consider to be his/her own personal continuity, nor the official one. What GL says goes as far as the official canon goes and there's nothing anyone can really do about it until the rights go to someone else.


WRT Palpatine being the "most powerful force user ever".

The fourth wall explanation of power creep in the EU is probably correct, but it is not the only one.

Who is more powerful, the Sith Lord who destroys a sun with the power of his mind, or the Sith Lord who successfully manipulates two sides of a galactic war into giving him absolute power over the galaxy? Over a timespan of thirty years?

Then continues to rule the entire galaxy for another thirty?

The way I see it, the Emperor was a force-powered politician and not so much into direct damage. Subtlety and manipulation from behind the scenes. Sort of like the EU's Battle Meditation force ability taken up to another order of magnitude, to the point where he subtlety influences the course of the entire galaxy.

In the novelization of ROTJ, he is mentioned in his meditation as considering that he WAS the Empire, that he WAS the universe. That the entire galactic empire was sort of a body, with individual sentient beings comprising the cells, and he himself as the brain controlling all of it.

What is blowing up a star compared to that? Even non-force users in the EU can blow up a sun given enough time and resources to build a doomsday weapon. Commanding, dominating and influencing an entire galaxy is another thing entirely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I like how everyone keeps bringing up the star destroying bit and leaving out the part where he had a machine to amplify his force powers, and going into EU Palpy opened up wormholes WITHOUT force amplifying tech, and of course, like you pointed out Palpy's battle meditation was extremely potent and far reaching.

Palpy is the strongest sith lord, Luke is the strongest force user, Anakin had the most potential before becoming more machine than man.

As for lightning affecting Vader, didn't he end up getting some sort of dark side artifact of a gem that he incorporated into one of his gloves that allowed him to either use lightning if he wanted, or make him resistant? I forget. I do recall there were some people who wanted to find his glove because they thought that was what let him choke people from across the galaxy. :smalltongue:

Spoilered the quotes to reduce Wall of Text Syndrome.

[Akiosama]

Also, GL has complete veto power over the IP at the moment. As far as I remember hearing, nothing gets to print without his (or his company's, anyhow) approval.

It was a big thing back when Sony Online Entertainment was working on Star Wars Galaxies. They actually had to go rounds with Lucasarts in order to come up with a viable 'respawn' option that was canon. Lucas was supposedly not going to allow SOE to utilize 'clone facilities' to deal with that - which was the easiest solution - because clone facilities didn't fit in with the canon. At that time, only the Emperor had known clone facilities - and those didn't get exposed until the Heir to the Empire trilogy.

So, I think the EU is "canon until Lucas says it's not canon, even though he once approved it" material - i.e. Lucas can always call 'takeback'.

My 2 yen,

Akiosama

[McStabbington]

The fact that there's even a quote floating around there about "who's the most powerful" shows that Lucas doesn't understand his own darned universe. The idea that there's some kind of rank-ordering where you can put Yoda = Palpatine > Vader > Obi-Won > Luke treats The Force as if it were some kind of Applied Phlebotinum that the better you manipulate, the better you can jump around and lightsaber people to death. While that describes how Lucas used the Force in the prequels, it doesn't describe, at all, what The Force was about in the originals.

Look again, for instance, at the scene where Yoda lifts the X-Wing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt6E1-_vXQU) from the swamp on Dagobah. Part of Luke's problem is he just doesn't realize how powerful The Force is. But the reason why Luke doesn't understand it is conceptual: he's treating it just as some mana pool that you can tap to pick up a rock or swing a lightsaber. And Yoda is trying to tell him that it isn't enough to just grab even harder with his mind and pick up something even heavier. If you want to control and alter with the Force, you first have to understand the Force. Power comes with understanding, but it is the understanding that determines the measure of the Jedi, not the power. Which, incidentally, is why Yoda at one point states that the Dark Side is "quicker, easier, more seductive", but not stronger: the Dark Side is taking the energy field created by all living things and twisting it to corrupt and destroy that life. It is, in other words, based on a fundamental misunderstanding about the Force.

Sadly, Lucas doesn't seem to appreciate that point in his movies at all. Which is why you get these weird statements by Palpatine that "Darth Vader will be more powerful than either of us" to Yoda that just fly the "WTF" flag. And why any kind of rank-ordering of power rankles. He's treating The Force in exactly the same way Luke did: as some mana pool to pull cool moves out of, not as some means to deeper wisdom and understanding of the universe that, coincidentally, brings with it tremendous ability to manipulate and alter that universe.

[Devonix]

Thank you McStabbington for so completely encapsulating my problem with Lucas and the force

[Comrade]

[SPOILER]
I like how everyone keeps bringing up the star destroying bit and leaving out the part where he had a machine to amplify his force powers, and going into EU Palpy opened up wormholes WITHOUT force amplifying tech, and of course, like you pointed out Palpy's battle meditation was extremely potent and far reaching.

I don't recall Naga Sadow requiring a machine to amplify his powers.

But then there was also Darth Nihilus, whose very presence drained and slowly killed everyone around him; hell Nihilus could even detect Force-users from across the galaxy and then proceed to cleanse entire planets of every force-user on it.

[Lord Blace]

I don't recall Naga Sadow requiring a machine to amplify his powers.

But then there was also Darth Nihilus, whose very presence drained and slowly killed everyone around him; hell Nihilus could even detect Force-users from across the galaxy and then proceed to cleanse entire planets of every force-user on it.

Was Nihilus really even a sith at that point? He was more like a living wound in the force, and his hunger was so great as to consume his identity. That's not even power, it's a crippling condition with a horrific upkeep. Think about it, no more plans to take over, no other ambitions other than, "MUST FIND NEXT MEAL, MUST SATIATE HUNGER."

I'll have a longer response to McStab once I get off work and have an actual keyboard and not this blasted phone. :smalltongue:

[Reverent-One]

Considering that's effectively word-for-word what George Lucas's official opinion is (As noted above), no, you're not alone.

That's what he said his opinion was at one point, he's blasted inconsistent about such things. For example, how many movies were there supposed to be?



On Karen Traviss, I have read so much about her constant wanking about Mandalorians on stardestroyer.net that I can no longer pick up her books without being reminded of how she managed to destroy that part of EU SW lore for me.

That's unfortunate, because that's her detractors constantly "wanking" about her supposed wanking of the Mandalorians.

[Comrade]

Was Nihilus really even a sith at that point? He was more like a living wound in the force, and his hunger was so great as to consume his identity. That's not even power, it's a crippling condition with a horrific upkeep. Think about it, no more plans to take over, no other ambitions other than, "MUST FIND NEXT MEAL, MUST SATIATE HUNGER."


Even though what you say is correct (he, if he could even really be called a 'he' and not an 'it', felt unbearable hunger when not consuming others) you can't deny it still gave to him pretty much insane power. He essentially crippled the Jedi Order all on his own with a single attack.

But he did have plans, he was constantly looking to become more and more powerful, and despite his constant hunger he was capable of being cautious when the situation required it. And he was technically a Sith Lord, having been trained with the Sith under a Dark Lord of the Sith before becoming one himself. However, he did seem to consider the Sith as an organisation to be of little importance in comparison with his search for power and life to consume.

EDIT: Related.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/121/feafe.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/feafe.jpg/)

:smallbiggrin:

[Mewtarthio]

Even though what you say is correct (he, if he could even really be called a 'he' and not an 'it', felt unbearable hunger when not consuming others) you can't deny it still gave to him pretty much insane power. He essentially crippled the Jedi Order all on his own with a single attack.

I still think it's inaccurate to call him "powerful," though. At least, not in the sense that Darth Vader or Yoda is powerful. He's powerful in the same way gravity is powerful. He's an impersonal, inhuman power, driven to follow certain irresistible laws. That power has consumed him entirely, and he is little more than a manifestation of a wound in the Force. Anyone looking to use the Dark Side as a quick road to power would do very poorly to follow Nihilus's example.

In short, Nihilus does not belong on a list of the top most powerful Force Users, because he does not use the Force. The Force (or, rather, the all-consuming void in the Force created at Mandalore) uses him.

That being said, I always thought that Palpatine was the same way.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I still think it's inaccurate to call him "powerful," though. At least, not in the sense that Darth Vader or Yoda is powerful. He's powerful in the same way gravity is powerful. He's an impersonal, inhuman power, driven to follow certain irresistible laws. That power has consumed him entirely, and he is little more than a manifestation of a wound in the Force. Anyone looking to use the Dark Side as a quick road to power would do very poorly to follow Nihilus's example.

In short, Nihilus does not belong on a list of the top most powerful Force Users, because he does not use the Force. The Force (or, rather, the all-consuming void in the Force created at Mandalore) uses him.

That being said, I always thought that Palpatine was the same way.

I'd argue Palpatine was the opposite of Nihilus. Palpatine certainly used the Force, but he was never consumed by it (not even in EU if I remember correctly) and always seemed to be in near perfect control of himself.

That said, I'd also argue that Nihilus wasn't quite the impersonal force you make him out to be. He had to obey certain immutable laws (mostly feed on life), but so do other people. Eat, drink, breath, etc. His laws are just different, but he still seems capable of rationale thought and decision making. This could just be the Nihilus-fan in me though, he's in the top three of my favorite Star Wars characters.

On topic, you can build electronics to withstand an EMP (to varying degrees of success of course) and Vader was able to absorb energy (source, I,Jedi). Combine the two with any special aspects of his armor (which I know nothing about) and I would say that an EMP may have SOME effect on Vader, but it wouldn't be nearly as debilitating as a would-be assassin might hope.

[Lord Blace]

The fact that there's even a quote floating around there about "who's the most powerful" shows that Lucas doesn't understand his own darned universe. The idea that there's some kind of rank-ordering where you can put Yoda = Palpatine > Vader > Obi-Won > Luke treats The Force as if it were some kind of Applied Phlebotinum that the better you manipulate, the better you can jump around and lightsaber people to death. While that describes how Lucas used the Force in the prequels, it doesn't describe, at all, what The Force was about in the originals.

Look again, for instance, at the scene where Yoda lifts the X-Wing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt6E1-_vXQU) from the swamp on Dagobah. Part of Luke's problem is he just doesn't realize how powerful The Force is. But the reason why Luke doesn't understand it is conceptual: he's treating it just as some mana pool that you can tap to pick up a rock or swing a lightsaber. And Yoda is trying to tell him that it isn't enough to just grab even harder with his mind and pick up something even heavier. If you want to control and alter with the Force, you first have to understand the Force. Power comes with understanding, but it is the understanding that determines the measure of the Jedi, not the power. Which, incidentally, is why Yoda at one point states that the Dark Side is "quicker, easier, more seductive", but not stronger: the Dark Side is taking the energy field created by all living things and twisting it to corrupt and destroy that life. It is, in other words, based on a fundamental misunderstanding about the Force.

Sadly, Lucas doesn't seem to appreciate that point in his movies at all. Which is why you get these weird statements by Palpatine that "Darth Vader will be more powerful than either of us" to Yoda that just fly the "WTF" flag. And why any kind of rank-ordering of power rankles. He's treating The Force in exactly the same way Luke did: as some mana pool to pull cool moves out of, not as some means to deeper wisdom and understanding of the universe that, coincidentally, brings with it tremendous ability to manipulate and alter that universe.

I have to say, as someone who is in the process of creating a setting and going to write stories in said setting (not the one in my sig, that's an abandoned project, I should get that out of there...) I would be incredibly insulted if someone told me I didn't understand my own universe. In both the movies and in the EU there are clearly levels of power held by various individuals, and it's fairly easy to see. I don't think it's quite the 'mana pool' you describe it as, but it's there. I saw something linked somewhere in the SWTOR forums that appeared to be evidence that midichlorians existed in GL's head as early as Empire. Yeah. It's not the creator who doesn't understand his own made up universe, it's you. Like it or not, he gets to make up the rules and/or change them on the fly for his fictional far far away galaxy. I wanted to say more, but it's been a while since I first thought of responding and I want to get to playing my renegade femshep, so ner. :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

I don't recall Naga Sadow requiring a machine to amplify his powers.

His battleship came with a set of Force Crystals- and these were used in the casting of the Sith Supernova Spell.

His battle meditation tended to be done within a "meditation sphere"- which may or may not boost its effects.

[Devonix]

I have to say, as someone who is in the process of creating a setting and going to write stories in said setting (not the one in my sig, that's an abandoned project, I should get that out of there...) I would be incredibly insulted if someone told me I didn't understand my own universe. In both the movies and in the EU there are clearly levels of power held by various individuals, and it's fairly easy to see. I don't think it's quite the 'mana pool' you describe it as, but it's there. I saw something linked somewhere in the SWTOR forums that appeared to be evidence that midichlorians existed in GL's head as early as Empire. Yeah. It's not the creator who doesn't understand his own made up universe, it's you. Like it or not, he gets to make up the rules and/or change them on the fly for his fictional far far away galaxy. I wanted to say more, but it's been a while since I first thought of responding and I want to get to playing my renegade femshep, so ner. :smallcool:

I'm sorry but the point is that George Lucas did not Create the starwars Universe. He created the general idea but what became starwars became it in spite of him not because of him. His vision of Starwars is not what we loved, its all those other actors adlibbing lines because of his inability to do dialouge and other screen writers and editors changing the meaning of what he did.

George Lucas created the body of Starwars but the people who said no to him created the soul.


Hell even things like Luke and Leia being brother and sister wern't Lucas. If he could just say no to people then as he does now we might not even have had that.

[pendell]

That's unfortunate, because that's her detractors constantly "wanking" about her supposed wanking of the Mandalorians.

Given that the entire rest of the EU is a massive wanking in favor of the Jedi, I think a little counter-wanking in favor of ordinary people, which is what Mandalorians are, is called for.

Think about it. We went from the most powerful Sith in the galaxy frying his enemy with lightning in RoTJ to pulling Star Destroyers from orbit in the Darth Vader's apprentice video game whose name escapes me at the moment.

Much of the rest of the EU essentially makes ordinary non-force sensitive people out to be essentially stage props, victims to be slaughtered or brainwashed into armies by force users. If you ever find an ordinary person in the EU who is simply very good and skillful at their job, odds are good she'll be retconned into a Force Adept in short order.

From the viewpoint of the characters in Travis' books, they are clones bred to fight in someone else's war, caught between Sith lords who care nothing for them and the Jedi who seem to think that the ability to open jars with their minds gives them ultimate moral authority. The final few books shows them heading to Mandalore and trying to stay out of the constant feuding between force users, and that's an attitude I can sympathize with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Given that the entire rest of the EU is a massive wanking in favor of the Jedi, I think a little counter-wanking in favor of ordinary people, which is what Mandalorians are, is called for.

Think about it. We went from the most powerful Sith in the galaxy frying his enemy with lightning in RoTJ to pulling Star Destroyers from orbit in the Darth Vader's apprentice video game whose name escapes me at the moment.

The Force Unleashed, yes- though in the novel, it's suggested that the ship was already coming down- all the Apprentice's powers needed to do was guide it in- still a massive job.

[Gnoman]

Umm, no. Outside of The Force Unleashed, which as a video game is the very lowest level of canon in terms of storyline, and 100% non-canon in terms of mechanics, most of hte EU revolves around the "common folk." Yes, Jedi make up quite a few of the veiwpoint characters, but they not only do not overshadow the regular non-force users (indeed, there's very few fields where a Jedi take the top spot. Wedge, Tycho, and Fel are at the top of the starfighter pilot ranking. Ackbar and thrawn are the best admirals. Han Solo, Booster Terrik, and Karrde are the best smugglers/infiltrators. Mon Mothma is the best leader), but they are not automatically treated as ethically morally superior just because they are Jedi. Traviss's Mandaolorions are the center from which all goodness in the galaxy flows, and are incapable of doing anything wrong.

[hamishspence]

Video games are C-canon. I believe it's been mentioned that only "light side endings" are canon though.

Some (Force Unleashed, Shadows of the Empire) were released in multiple formats- game, novel, comic strip.

In 501st, Skirata does come in for some criticism.

[Aotrs Commander]

Given that the entire rest of the EU is a massive wanking in favor of the Jedi, I think a little counter-wanking in favor of ordinary people, which is what Mandalorians are, is called for.

Think about it. We went from the most powerful Sith in the galaxy frying his enemy with lightning in RoTJ to pulling Star Destroyers from orbit in the Darth Vader's apprentice video game whose name escapes me at the moment.

Much of the rest of the EU essentially makes ordinary non-force sensitive people out to be essentially stage props, victims to be slaughtered or brainwashed into armies by force users. If you ever find an ordinary person in the EU who is simply very good and skillful at their job, odds are good she'll be retconned into a Force Adept in short order.

The GOOD EU books (i.e. primarily, though not exclusively, the ones by Zhan, Stackpole and Alliston, ) put Jedi in the right place, i.e. powerful but not overwhelming or dominating the story and keep them from getting silly. Rather, they ar Jedi that happen to be in the story, rather than being the reason for the story.

Zhan actually went to the extent of (trying to) viciously curb back the mounting abuse of the Jedi *cough*KevinJAndersonamongothers*cough* by having Luke realise that if he kept spamming his powers like he had been doing, he couldn't hear the voice of the Force or something and thus would fall to the Darkside (by the extremely subtle method of having a Force vision of Exur Kun and Palpatine laughing at him just as he was about to go all Jedi Master at one point). For which I was profoundly grateful.

I will grant you, a fair bit of the EU does place way too much emphasis on the Jedi. But I generally find that those books are the crap end of the spectrum.



(I also think Karen Traviss' stance on clone numbers was ludicrous (which would have been fine if she had just said, "whoops. Yeah, author, not great with numbers, sorry!") as was her claim the Jedi were actively evil. Lawful Stupid, yes, up their own arses and deserving, largely, what they got, yes, but not completely amoral.

All that said though, I think the fact stands that the only book I read of hers, aside from the moderate adaption of the Clone Wars movie (where notably, for some reason, far more Clone Troopers survived than in the film), I was bored enough to stop reading on it's own merits, before I even knew any of this. (And to date, it remains the only SW book I've bought that I haven't finished, even including the first three of the vong arc. (Though to be fair, the latter pair were by Stackpole. And after finishing them, I said if "even he can't make me like this...stuff, I should probably stop..."))

[hamishspence]

(I also think Karen Traviss' stance on clone numbers was ludicrous (which would have been fine if she had just said, "whoops. Yeah, author, not great with numbers, sorry!")

She didn't come up with them though- it was the Episode II novelization that said the 200,000 immediate units (and 1,000,000 very shortly afterward) represented individual clone warriors. Several other authors accepted those figures, and wrote novels, around the same time (or slightly before) her first clone wars novel, with those figures in. Matt Stover's Shatterpoint springs to mind, as does The Cestus Deception. Even the slightly later James Luceno book Labyrinth of Evil uses them.

So- it wasn't just her.

[Dienekes]

Given that the entire rest of the EU is a massive wanking in favor of the Jedi, I think a little counter-wanking in favor of ordinary people, which is what Mandalorians are, is called for.

Think about it. We went from the most powerful Sith in the galaxy frying his enemy with lightning in RoTJ to pulling Star Destroyers from orbit in the Darth Vader's apprentice video game whose name escapes me at the moment.

Much of the rest of the EU essentially makes ordinary non-force sensitive people out to be essentially stage props, victims to be slaughtered or brainwashed into armies by force users. If you ever find an ordinary person in the EU who is simply very good and skillful at their job, odds are good she'll be retconned into a Force Adept in short order.

From the viewpoint of the characters in Travis' books, they are clones bred to fight in someone else's war, caught between Sith lords who care nothing for them and the Jedi who seem to think that the ability to open jars with their minds gives them ultimate moral authority. The final few books shows them heading to Mandalore and trying to stay out of the constant feuding between force users, and that's an attitude I can sympathize with.

You see my problem with Mandalorians is that they are no longer ordinary people. Now I could rant a bit about how the power climb seen in force users is missing the point and you don't need a bigger threat to be a good read, cause Hell the two best villains were a guy who needed life support to keep from dying and a blue guy without any force powers at all.

But anyway, it is fantastic when a normal person gets the respect he (or she) deserves and shows up some Jedi. But the Mandalorians are not them. When a race or society is defined by just being a badass then instead of showing normal people conquer the opposition you simply show that some warrior way is superior to other ways of living.

Now I haven't read Traviss' Clone War era books. But I've read a few others and I can say she does really favor Mandalorians to the point of ridiculousness where it doesn't even make sense within the confines of the story. Why the Hell would Jaina go to Boba Fett to train? That doesn't make sense, he has never faced a Sith before and his fighting style bares no similarity to the lightsaber and Force powers. How does he punch faster than should be physically possible? It's not explained, and makes Jaina seem incompetent or Fett appear magical in the hopes that this makes him badass.

This is part of why I was one of the few who embraced the changes to Mandalorian culture done in the Clone Wars tv show. Creating a faction not dedicated towards war is a good thing and shows development in a rather one note society who keeps causing trouble.

We can also get into Traviss is a bit of an arrogant idiot (comparing your detractors to the Taliban? Are you serious?) but that's not really a point against her writing, though to me it does make it a bit tainted.

[Grif]

Umm, no. Outside of The Force Unleashed, which as a video game is the very lowest level of canon in terms of storyline, and 100% non-canon in terms of mechanics, most of hte EU revolves around the "common folk." Yes, Jedi make up quite a few of the veiwpoint characters, but they not only do not overshadow the regular non-force users (indeed, there's very few fields where a Jedi take the top spot. Wedge, Tycho, and Fel are at the top of the starfighter pilot ranking. Ackbar and thrawn are the best admirals. Han Solo, Booster Terrik, and Karrde are the best smugglers/infiltrators. Mon Mothma is the best leader), but they are not automatically treated as ethically morally superior just because they are Jedi. Traviss's Mandaolorions are the center from which all goodness in the galaxy flows, and are incapable of doing anything wrong.

Han Solo books were excellent. In fact, any SW novels that features non-Jedi (and non-Mandaolorians) are remarkably good reads in every way.


You see my problem with Mandalorians is that they are no longer ordinary people. Now I could rant a bit about how the power climb seen in force users is missing the point and you don't need a bigger threat to be a good read, cause Hell the two best villains were a guy who needed life support to keep from dying and a blue guy without any force powers at all.

But anyway, it is fantastic when a normal person gets the respect he (or she) deserves and shows up some Jedi. But the Mandalorians are not them. When a race or society is defined by just being a badass then instead of showing normal people conquer the opposition you simply show that some warrior way is superior to other ways of living.

Now I haven't read Traviss' Clone War era books. But I've read a few others and I can say she does really favor Mandalorians to the point of ridiculousness where it doesn't even make sense within the confines of the story. Why the Hell would Jaina go to Boba Fett to train? That doesn't make sense, he has never faced a Sith before and his fighting style bares no similarity to the lightsaber and Force powers. How does he punch faster than should be physically possible? It's not explained, and makes Jaina seem incompetent or Fett appear magical in the hopes that this makes him badass.

This is part of why I was one of the few who embraced the changes to Mandalorian culture done in the Clone Wars tv show. Creating a faction not dedicated towards war is a good thing and shows development in a rather one note society who keeps causing trouble.

We can also get into Traviss is a bit of an arrogant idiot (comparing your detractors to the Taliban? Are you serious?) but that's not really a point against her writing, though to me it does make it a bit tainted.

I wanted to respond to those defending Traviss. But Dienenkes beat me to it. So yeah... whatever he said. The tipping point of me flipping Traviss' books the bird was the bit about Jaina going to Boba Fett for training. Because it was that bad. Jaina was all but portrayed as an incompetent fangirl in that book.

[hamishspence]

Why the Hell would Jaina go to Boba Fett to train? That doesn't make sense, he has never faced a Sith before and his fighting style bares no similarity to the lightsaber and Force powers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Boba_Fett%3A_Enemy_of_the_Empire

Early comic in which Fett faces Vader in battle.

So, (if canonical) he does have some experience.

[pendell]

You see my problem with Mandalorians is that they are no longer ordinary people. Now I could rant a bit about how the power climb seen in force users is missing the point and you don't need a bigger threat to be a good read, cause Hell the two best villains were a guy who needed life support to keep from dying and a blue guy without any force powers at all.

But anyway, it is fantastic when a normal person gets the respect he (or she) deserves and shows up some Jedi. But the Mandalorians are not them. When a race or society is defined by just being a badass then instead of showing normal people conquer the opposition you simply show that some warrior way is superior to other ways of living.


The reason I didn't see these things as problems was because I viewed her Republic Commando books as written from the Mandalorian viewpoint. Naturally Kal Skirata and company believe themselves to be badasses and that they are morally superior to everyone else in the universe. And Kal Skirata has the raw charisma to convince others, even some Jedi , that this is true.

Just because the viewpoint protagonist believes something to be true about the Star Wars universe doesn't make it so. Even if the author has so completely bought into the viewpoint of her characters that the views of fictional beings in a fictional universe become hers as well.

I actually haven't read any Star Wars books past the Vong invasion, and from what little I've heard of Darth Krayt, Jaina and Jacen Solo et al, I suspect I'm not missing anything.

I've always wanted to read the Vong stories, but there are simply too many and of wildly variable quality. Maybe if the main ones are collated into a single volume or Kindle edition so I can read them at once instead of having to hunt down individual volumes in the library.

Even so, I don't find the idea of a Jedi going to a non-force-using veteran commando for training to be unbelievable. Jango went toe-to-toe with Obi-wan Kenobi and gave a good accounting of himself.

The Force does not bestow ultimate combat superiority or invulnerability. It makes sense, therefore, to learn combat from other people besides Jedi Masters. If nothing else, it should bestow a healthy respect for the capabilities of ordinary soldiers. Something the earlier Jedi, trained in their temple against remote drones, might well have lacked during the clone wars and paid dearly for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Philistine]

Given that the entire rest of the EU is a massive wanking in favor of the Jedi, I think a little counter-wanking in favor of ordinary people, which is what Mandalorians are, is called for.

Think about it. We went from the most powerful Sith in the galaxy frying his enemy with lightning in RoTJ to pulling Star Destroyers from orbit in the Darth Vader's apprentice video game whose name escapes me at the moment.

Much of the rest of the EU essentially makes ordinary non-force sensitive people out to be essentially stage props, victims to be slaughtered or brainwashed into armies by force users. If you ever find an ordinary person in the EU who is simply very good and skillful at their job, odds are good she'll be retconned into a Force Adept in short order.

From the viewpoint of the characters in Travis' books, they are clones bred to fight in someone else's war, caught between Sith lords who care nothing for them and the Jedi who seem to think that the ability to open jars with their minds gives them ultimate moral authority. The final few books shows them heading to Mandalore and trying to stay out of the constant feuding between force users, and that's an attitude I can sympathize with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

In what sense are Mandalorians "ordinary people," exactly? They don't use the Force? Big deal - that just means there's NO justification for them being better at everything than everyone else in the setting. At least the Jedi are explicitly supernatural.

The Mandalorians as written are galactic locusts whose mere survival strains credulity. Yet we're asked to believe that they not only survive, but prosper - that they're a legitimate military threat to a galaxy in which they're outnumbered by inhabited planets, let alone the populace of said planets; that "reverse engineering" stolen technology has put them ahead of everyone else in said galaxy despite disdaining science and engineering as Unfit for a Real Man(do) (apart from the myriad practical problems, this idea fails elementary logic - you don't get ahead of everyone else by copying them); and most galling, that these devotees of destruction and conquest who abhor any kind of creative or productive endeavor, who at the best of times are amoral mercenaries and at the worst of times are eager allies of Pure Evil, are somehow morally superior to people who dedicate themselves to defending of the lives and freedoms of others. No. Asterisks no.

I, too, like stories about ordinary people in the GFFA. But tales of the Wankdalorians don't scratch that itch - they're bigger Mary Sues than the Jedi, and with less justification.

[Dienekes]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Boba_Fett%3A_Enemy_of_the_Empire

Early comic in which Fett faces Vader in battle.

So, (if canonical) he does have some experience.

I'd thought that this was considered discontinuity by now, because it was stupid. Really, really stupid. Even if it wasn't, no one knows about that little venture so it would still make no sense for Jaina to go seek out Fett.


The reason I didn't see these things as problems was because I viewed her Republic Commando books as written from the Mandalorian viewpoint. Naturally Kal Skirata and company believe themselves to be badasses and that they are morally superior to everyone else in the universe. And Kal Skirata has the raw charisma to convince others, even some Jedi , that this is true.

I cannot comment on something I have not read and have no intention of reading. If you say it works for you, then cheers my good man and enjoy it.



I actually haven't read any Star Wars books past the Vong invasion, and from what little I've heard of Darth Krayt, Jaina and Jacen Solo et al, I suspect I'm not missing anything.

You're not. If only someone had told me before I started that little storyline.


Even so, I don't find the idea of a Jedi going to a non-force-using veteran commando for training to be unbelievable. Jango went toe-to-toe with Obi-wan Kenobi and gave a good accounting of himself.

The Force does not bestow ultimate combat superiority or invulnerability. It makes sense, therefore, to learn combat from other people besides Jedi Masters. If nothing else, it should bestow a healthy respect for the capabilities of ordinary soldiers. Something the earlier Jedi, trained in their temple against remote drones, might well have lacked during the clone wars and paid dearly for.


If you're going to fight a guy with a sword, you ask to train with a swordsman. If you're going to shoot a guy down you go looking for a marksman. If you plan on using the force you meditate or find a Jedi master. Doing otherwise is silly.

What also is silly is for a light sider to go searching for help in defeating the dark side by someone who has always been pushing into the dark side himself. I'm trying to think of what logical reason she would have to go to Fett. Not her father, not Luke the guru action Jesus of the setting, not any of the also badass and loyal good Republic soldiers, but a rather villainous mercenary turned leader of a planet that has always been mildly hostile to you.

[hamishspence]

We can also get into Traviss is a bit of an arrogant idiot (comparing your detractors to the Taliban? Are you serious?) but that's not really a point against her writing, though to me it does make it a bit tainted.

While I'm somewhat underwhelmed by her writing, I did a lot of digging when I heard about this sort of thing on TV Tropes.

Eventually, I found that she got the term from Kevin J. Anderson.
And that it was restricted entirely to people who do things like email spam, death threats, post videos of "them" (another actor dressed up) being murdered, and so forth.

Honest disagreement doesn't get the term- only this sort of thing does.

[Dienekes]

While I'm somewhat underwhelmed by her writing, I did a lot of digging when I heard about this sort of thing on TV Tropes.

Eventually, I found that she got the term from Kevin J. Anderson.
And that it was restricted entirely to people who do things like email spam, death threats, post videos of "them" (another actor dressed up) being murdered, and so forth.

Honest disagreement doesn't get the term- only this sort of thing does.

Hmm not what I've seen. I've heard she didn't invent the term mind you, but the posts she used it on do not seem to be directed toward a specific subset of her detractors. Unless the term itself is meant to mean that subset in which she really needs to clarify her statements.

She has also said that they deserve to be killed, and are all sexist. So I can see she has a thing for name calling. Really the whole situation was rather screwy.

[hamishspence]

Unless the term itself is meant to mean that subset in which she really needs to clarify her statements.

That was the impression I got.


She has also said that they deserve to be killed, and are all sexist. So I can see she has a thing for name calling. Really the whole situation was rather screwy.

This was after one such video got posted- and was more "In my less rational moments, I think that....."

That said, she wasn't behaving very well either- but I do think that her bad behaviour has been exaggerated.

[Lord Blace]

I'm sorry but the point is that George Lucas did not Create the starwars Universe. He created the general idea but what became starwars became it in spite of him not because of him. His vision of Starwars is not what we loved, its all those other actors adlibbing lines because of his inability to do dialouge and other screen writers and editors changing the meaning of what he did.

George Lucas created the body of Starwars but the people who said no to him created the soul.


Hell even things like Luke and Leia being brother and sister wern't Lucas. If he could just say no to people then as he does now we might not even have had that.

Well your point is blatantly invalid. Lucas created the body, and as the creator, ip holder, fictional god of the universe he gets to decide what that soul is that goes into that body. What you took away as what Star Wars was clearly wasn't. Does that suck? Yeah, it does, but that's just how things are sometimes.

[Devonix]

Well your point is blatantly invalid. Lucas created the body, and as the creator, ip holder, fictional god of the universe he gets to decide what that soul is that goes into that body. What you took away as what Star Wars was clearly wasn't. Does that suck? Yeah, it does, but that's just how things are sometimes.

He didn't create it alone. Thats the problem he is invalidating people who had just as much input in the creation of starwars as he did. And now changing because those collaborators aren't involved as much.

[hamishspence]

Yes. For example, with The Clone Wars:

Thanks to Anakin being promoted to Knight only shortly into the war, the novel Jedi Trial becomes somewhat problematic.

Thanks to the Jedi Master Evan Piell being killed during the series, the first book in the Coruscant Knights trilogy becomes problematic.

The entire Republic series of Clone Wars comics becomes problematic.

And so on.

[Weezer]

Well your point is blatantly invalid. Lucas created the body, and as the creator, ip holder, fictional god of the universe he gets to decide what that soul is that goes into that body. What you took away as what Star Wars was clearly wasn't. Does that suck? Yeah, it does, but that's just how things are sometimes.

The thing is, that even if we give Lucas credit for being the sole creator of Star Wars, what he thinks doesn't matter at all. This concept is known as Death of the Author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author) and has been the central tenant of literary, artistic and cinematic criticism for decades. It hold that the authors conception of the work doesn't really matter, but instead you need to look solely at the content of the work to extract it's meaning, or in this case which Jedi is more powerful. Many authors, most notably Vonnegut, hated this idea and wanted to maintain interpretive control over their work, but in the end they lost. So who Lucas thinks is the most powerful Jedi is an entirely moot point, what really matters is who is shown to be most powerful by the text.

[Gaius Marius]

Pretty much. Saying that George Lucas having legal ownership over the franchise automatically gives him a moral authority as well is... Well, it's Rule-Lawyering at it's worst.

Star Wars grown into something better than what Lucas's powerful but kinda blunt imagination ever conceived, and him imposing his views over the franchise is arrogant at best.

[Yora]

This is a wonderful case of the phenomenon called DisContinuity.

Star Wars is a great idea by George Lucas. Many people have made contributions to the original ideas since the moment the first movie went into production. Some are generally considered good, others rather bad, and a lot have both fans and haters.
And unfortunately, lots of the contributions made by Lucas himself are rather retarded. He wasn't the big mastermind who decided on every detail for the movies, but other people were constantly convincing him that some ideas were nood good and they should do something different, which they did.

There may be an A canon, but when it comes to me, I look at things and decide if they seem to work or not, and when something does not fit, I decide just to ignore it and pretend it ever happened. Those parts that I do like are still greatly enjoyable.

[McStabbington]

Well your point is blatantly invalid. Lucas created the body, and as the creator, ip holder, fictional god of the universe he gets to decide what that soul is that goes into that body. What you took away as what Star Wars was clearly wasn't. Does that suck? Yeah, it does, but that's just how things are sometimes.

Okay, that's either just silliness at work or failure to understand how a script gets produced. Typically, a script starts with a central idea, then the person who had the original idea wraps an original script around it. The idea can be complex (tale of how a farm boy becomes a hero in a galaxy far, far away) or simple (image of a robot rising out a fire). After the first draft, however, it typically goes to other writers, who read it and write back that "this part worked, but this part didn't, and you've got a major plot hole that needs resolved here, and this part can't be filmed without $100 million in CGI, which we won't get". After that, the script goes back to the original writer, who revises and pares down to acknowledge this and accentuate the good elements of his story. Only after this process has happened several times do you get a finished script, and even then the directors and actors can request revisions. The result is that your average, normal "final script" is almost never solely the result of any one person. That goes doubly true for what is actually committed to celluloid, and it is true even of some of the very best movie and television scripts produced.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that this collaborative process is a bad thing. In my experience it's actually a good thing, and that back and forth has resulted in a huge number of cinema's finest moments. The Terminator, for instance, was originally a standard-fare war movie set in 2027, and only incorporated a time-travel angle when Cameron's wife and editor, Gale Ann Hurd, noted that he'd never have the money to do a war movie set in the far future. In Star Trek II, Spock's death scene was moved from the middle of the film (where Scotty's nephew dies) to the end in response to Roddenberry leaking that Spock was going to die. And if you look at Lucas' original ideas for characters, Luke Starkiller, Han and Vader all depart heavily from the Campbellian archetypes that they adhere to in actual films. The paring down of the characters into their archetypes, in short, was not Lucas' idea, and the films are far better off because someone else convinced Lucas that he was wrong.

With respect, I think that's where you misunderstand exactly what insult I was paying to Lucas. Because the statement above is correct: saying that someone doesn't understand their own universe is a hell of an insult. But it's not an insult in quite the way you seem to be thinking it is. It's an insult not because Star Wars is solely the result of Lucas' imagination. That's just silly because it can't be true given a) how scripts are generally made in Hollywood and b) what we know of the evolution of the Star Wars storyline. Rather, it's an insult because at one point, Lucas was modest enough to admit that he didn't have all the answers for how to tell a compelling story in his universe, but now has either forgotten or willfully ignores that lesson. And his movies and legacy are increasingly suffering for that forgetfulness or ignorance.

[Gaius Marius]

I was going to add my own 2 coppers to McStabbington's post, but I think only 1 word can do it justice:



- Like

[Archpaladin Zousha]

All this natter is what makes me nervous around Star Wars these days. I greatly enjoyed the movies. Even the prequels, insane as that sounds. I'd enjoy them if I saw them again.

But then I come on the internet and see all this garbage being slung around about George Lucas being a megalomaniac, who's the most powerful, favorite characters dying, non-favorite characters getting the spotlight and countless characters falling to the Dark Side for no clear reason. It kind of makes me feel ashamed. Does Star Wars as a story and intellectual property have ANY redeeming qualities left at all?

I'm strongly inclined towards not after seeing an EU novel that the bookstore that turned out to be upon closer examination a zombie apocalypse novel set in Star Wars. Death Troopers is the name of the novel in question for the morbidly curious. I have no idea how they could possibly justify "Zombies in Star Wars!"

[Weezer]

There are a number of books in EU worth reading and exploring that avoid the darkness later writers tried to infuse into the setting. I personally liked most the X-Wing series, it explored a character only mentioned a few times in the movies, Wedge Antillies and his experiences fighting the remnants of the Empire after Endor.

For novels that focus more on the main characters from the movies Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy does a really good job at continuing the story in a way that still "feels" like Star Wars. Luke remains an unsure Jedi still learning what being a Jedi really means, Leia is a revolutionary facing the quintessential revolutionary problem "what do we do now we've won?" and Han is still a smuggler but now can no longer smuggle. The only real darkness in it is the ever present threat of falling to the dark side of the Force, but that was present in the movies anyways. Also it has a very good villain, which is so important to a universe like Star Wars.

I would say read the older Star Wars books, those written before the prequels began and before the universe's timeline progressed too far.

[Philistine]

I have to say, as someone who is in the process of creating a setting and going to write stories in said setting (not the one in my sig, that's an abandoned project, I should get that out of there...) I would be incredibly insulted if someone told me I didn't understand my own universe. In both the movies and in the EU there are clearly levels of power held by various individuals, and it's fairly easy to see. I don't think it's quite the 'mana pool' you describe it as, but it's there. I saw something linked somewhere in the SWTOR forums that appeared to be evidence that midichlorians existed in GL's head as early as Empire. Yeah. It's not the creator who doesn't understand his own made up universe, it's you. Like it or not, he gets to make up the rules and/or change them on the fly for his fictional far far away galaxy. I wanted to say more, but it's been a while since I first thought of responding and I want to get to playing my renegade femshep, so ner. :smallcool:

George Lucas seems to genuinely believe that the Star Wars franchise has always been about "complex political intrigue" and "moral ambiguity" - the former apparently because of a couple of throwaway lines of dialogue about Palpatine abolishing the Imperial Senate, and the latter because of Vader's ultimate decision to betray his boss rather than watch his own son be murdered (but note that Vader was fully on board with torturing the kid in order to break his will and convert him to the Dark Side). The guy is capable of stating, within the space of a single interview, that in the relativistic morality of Star Wars, it's perfectly valid to consider the Sith and Jedi as morally equivalent, or even prefer the Sith - even though there is no "Light Side" of the Force; the Dark Side is merely a corruption of the balance, and thus "bringing balance to the Force" means exterminating the Sith (which is a good thing). So if anyone ever wanted to argue that an author didn't understand his or her own setting, the case of George Lucas and Star Wars would seem to offer them uniquely solid footing.

[druid91]

In what sense are Mandalorians "ordinary people," exactly? They don't use the Force? Big deal - that just means there's NO justification for them being better at everything than everyone else in the setting. At least the Jedi are explicitly supernatural.

The Mandalorians as written are galactic locusts whose mere survival strains credulity. Yet we're asked to believe that they not only survive, but prosper - that they're a legitimate military threat to a galaxy in which they're outnumbered by inhabited planets, let alone the populace of said planets; that "reverse engineering" stolen technology has put them ahead of everyone else in said galaxy despite disdaining science and engineering as Unfit for a Real Man(do) (apart from the myriad practical problems, this idea fails elementary logic - you don't get ahead of everyone else by copying them); and most galling, that these devotees of destruction and conquest who abhor any kind of creative or productive endeavor, who at the best of times are amoral mercenaries and at the worst of times are eager allies of Pure Evil, are somehow morally superior to people who dedicate themselves to defending of the lives and freedoms of others. No. Asterisks no.

I, too, like stories about ordinary people in the GFFA. But tales of the Wankdalorians don't scratch that itch - they're bigger Mary Sues than the Jedi, and with less justification.

Personally I like the Mandalorians. I've never read Traviss books, so my one and only source for mandalorian goodness is KOTOR and star-wars battlefront 2.

That being said. Mandalorians don't disdain engineering. In fact, as part of mandalorian culture a part of the glory for every kill goes to the maker of the weapon that was used.

So an engineer makes ten guns, gives them to ten other mandalorians. Each of those mandalorians kill someone with those guns. He just got the full glory of killing a guy, on top of whatever kills he racked up himself.

As for "They're bigger Mary-Sues than the jedi with less justification."

So a warrior race who disdains magic and is capable of going toe-to-toe with it's practicioners through sheer skill is a "mary-sue" now? I mean really, they're like the sith without Chronic backstabbing disorder or force powers.

Each individual sith is a threat to the entire new republic. Take away the force powers, make it a planet of them, and give them the capacity to work together. There. You have the mandalorian people.

Sounds like a winning combo to me.

[Grif]

Personally I like the Mandalorians. I've never read Traviss books, so my one and only source for mandalorian goodness is KOTOR and star-wars battlefront 2.

That being said. Mandalorians don't disdain engineering. In fact, as part of mandalorian culture a part of the glory for every kill goes to the maker of the weapon that was used.

So an engineer makes ten guns, gives them to ten other mandalorians. Each of those mandalorians kill someone with those guns. He just got the full glory of killing a guy, on top of whatever kills he racked up himself.

As for "They're bigger Mary-Sues than the jedi with less justification."

So a warrior race who disdains magic and is capable of going toe-to-toe with it's practicioners through sheer skill is a "mary-sue" now? I mean really, they're like the sith without Chronic backstabbing disorder or force powers.

Each individual sith is a threat to the entire new republic. Take away the force powers, make it a planet of them, and give them the capacity to work together. There. You have the mandalorian people.

Sounds like a winning combo to me.

I take it you never read Traviss books. Oh wait, you stated it right there.

Read them, and you'll begin to understand why we're biased against Mandalorians. She made them the biggest Sues of the SW universe and made them the supreme can-do-no-wrong badass race.

[Reverent-One]

I take it you never read Traviss books. Oh wait, you stated it right there.

Read them, and you'll begin to understand why we're biased against Mandalorians. She made them the biggest Sues of the SW universe and made them the supreme can-do-no-wrong badass race.

Not in the least, they don't come close to the Jedi. Oh, they get some nice toys and play a role in the goings on, but that's about the extent of it. They're badasses at combat because that's their area of expertise, and that's nothing new to Traviss's books.

[druid91]

I take it you never read Traviss books. Oh wait, you stated it right there.

Read them, and you'll begin to understand why we're biased against Mandalorians. She made them the biggest Sues of the SW universe and made them the supreme can-do-no-wrong badass race.

So basically Jedi without the magic?:smallwink:


But seriously I have been pre-biased against Traviss due to everything I've heard about her is... unpleasant.

For example, Rage-quitting her work on her book series because a childrens show ret-conned some of her work, admittedly it is ridiculous but you are working with star-wars. Really you have done nothing but convince me even more that I should stick with KOTOR I-II for mandalorians.

[Reverent-One]

So basically Jedi without the magic?:smallwink:


But seriously I have been pre-biased against Traviss due to everything I've heard about her is... unpleasant.

I agree that personally, she wasn't anyone I'd care to meet, but as Tycho from Penny Arcade said (http://penny-arcade.com/2010/04/09) (emphasis his):


Now, it’s true that Karen Traviss referred to the faction who opposed her work as Talifans, which might not have been especially diplomatic. But she’s not a diplomat, she’s a writer, which might be the exact opposite.


For example, Rage-quitting her work on her book series because a childrens show ret-conned some of her work, admittedly it is ridiculous but you are working with star-wars. Really you have done nothing but convince me even more that I should stick with KOTOR I-II for mandalorians.

KOTOR Mando's aren't terribly different from Traviss's, despite what some would tell you. At least take a look at her first Republic Commando book, Hard Contact, which doesn't touch on many, or any really, of the points people complain about.

[Comrade]

That said, I'd also argue that Nihilus wasn't quite the impersonal force you make him out to be. He had to obey certain immutable laws (mostly feed on life), but so do other people. Eat, drink, breath, etc. His laws are just different, but he still seems capable of rationale thought and decision making. This could just be the Nihilus-fan in me though, he's in the top three of my favorite Star Wars characters.


Dude, Nihilus basically sits at the top of my favourite Star Wars characters :smallcool:

And damn, posting goes quick here. I neglect to look here for a few hours and two pages go right by :v

[Mystic Muse]

Dude, Nihilus basically sits at the top of my favourite Star Wars characters :smallcool:

And damn, posting goes quick here. I neglect to look here for a few hours and two pages go right by :v

Heh. You think this is bad, try hanging out in the MLP thread sometime. Abandon that for a couple hours, and you'll have 5 or 6 on your hands. Wait a day, you might have 15 or 20.

Wait a week and you'll have two threads to catch up with.

As for the discussion about Mandalorians, they never appealed to me. Even if Travis's books were good, which I've heard differing opinions on, I wouldn't read them simply because I find the idea of the Mandalorians just kinda boring. To me, they're amoral mercenaries that have laid waste to entire planets for a reason that rates barely above "Because I could" and that's all they'll ever be. Those aren't the kind of people I want to read about. I already read and watch documentaries about those kind of people in school, I'm not going to read something starring those people when I read things to escape from the real world.

[Reverent-One]

As for the discussion about Mandalorians, they never appealed to me. Even if Travis's books were good, which I've heard differing opinions on, I wouldn't read them simply because I find the idea of the Mandalorians just kinda boring. To me, they're amoral mercenaries that have laid waste to entire planets for a reason that rates barely above "Because I could" and that's all they'll ever be. Those aren't the kind of people I want to read about. I already read and watch documentaries about those kind of people in school, I'm not going to read something starring those people when I read things to escape from the real world.

Her Republic Commando books, while they have prominent Mando characters (several of whom are the amoral types you refer to), are more about the aforementioned Commandos, clones that aren't mercenaries, but soldiers fighting for the Republic.

[Dienekes]

Not in the least, they don't come close to the Jedi. Oh, they get some nice toys and play a role in the goings on, but that's about the extent of it. They're badasses at combat because that's their area of expertise, and that's nothing new to Traviss's books.

As an individual people no they are not more powerful than Jedi. But as a culture they make annoyingly little sense. Now, admittedly other cultures in the SWU make just as little sense, but they tend to stay in the background and as a whole are not made a big deal about. But we have rich detailed information on the Mandalorians, and what we are given is illogical.

I think of comparing the Mandalorians with Sparta. I don't think I need to explain that the Sparitiate were considered pretty good in their chosen form of combat, however their focus was also their problem. They had a rather weak navy, were very slow to change, were dependent upon their serf population and so on.

I bring this up because when compared to the Mando's you can pretty much accept that the Mando's were damn good soldiers, and should be good enough to fight a Jedi. That's special awesome enough, add some details into their history and culture and we got ourselves a likeable and enigmatic warrior race guys.

But then we go into their details and it becomes eye-roll worthy. With one planet they have the armada capable of taking on a galaxy. They have the a metal that deflects lightsabers and is considered near indestructible that no one else has. They have a completely undisciplined social structure, yet are still able to attack disciplined regiments with ease, somehow becoming organized in combat instantly creating rank with no real method of determining that rank. There is no caste system, but there appears to be a running economy and food system where everyone is a trained warrior. There are few industrial centers, but they can apparently pump out those ships that near conquer the galaxy at roadrunner pace if necessary.

It's mind-boggling if you stop to think about it. So generally, you don't. But I can't shake the feeling that they pushed too hard to make this culture. Personally, and this is just personally, I feel the Mando's would have been best used just as a strong warrior race renowned for their individual prowess but not as a military unit. Maybe they went out a conquering once and got beaten back by the superior organized (but slow to reacting) Republic and remain as a mercenary culture. The special metal, the incredibly powerful fleet should have been dropped. Maybe, just maybe show that the culture has some actual weaknesses to it. Now that would make something interesting to me, and depending on the talent of the writer, still fit my model of a race of normal people.

[Reverent-One]

But then we go into their details and it becomes eye-roll worthy. With one planet they have the armada capable of taking on a galaxy. They have the a metal that deflects lightsabers and is considered near indestructible that no one else has. They have a completely undisciplined social structure, yet are still able to attack disciplined regiments with ease, somehow becoming organized in combat instantly creating rank with no real method of determining that rank. There is no caste system, but there appears to be a running economy and food system where everyone is a trained warrior. There are few industrial centers, but they can apparently pump out those ships that near conquer the galaxy at roadrunner pace if necessary.

It's mind-boggling if you stop to think about it. So generally, you don't. But I can't shake the feeling that they pushed too hard to make this culture. Personally, and this is just personally, I feel the Mando's would have been best used just as a strong warrior race renowned for their individual prowess but not as a military unit. Maybe they went out a conquering once and got beaten back by the superior organized (but slow to reacting) Republic and remain as a mercenary culture. The special metal, the incredibly powerful fleet should have been dropped. Maybe, just maybe show that the culture has some actual weaknesses to it. Now that would make something interesting to me, and depending on the talent of the writer, still fit my model of a race of normal people.

Ah, so you have issues with the Mandos in general, not just Traviss. I can get that better. As for some of your specific points, I believe back when they were a galactic power in terms of fleet presence, they had a number of planets under their control that they had captured over time, not just one planet they all exploded out from one day and tried to take over.

And it's not like they're the only ones with an anti-Jedi resource on their home planet. Cortosis not only resists a lightsaber, but shorts it out. Phrik is like the Mandalorian metal, just found elsewhere. There's even an armored cloth that provides some protection against lightsabers. Then there's planets like Myrkr that have creatures that turn off force powers, the Ysalamir. Their metal isn't really that special, one could get similar anti-jedi gear elsewhere.

[Dienekes]

Ah, so you have issues with the Mandos in general, not just Traviss. I can get that better. As for some of your specific points, I believe back when they were a galactic power in terms of fleet presence, they had a number of planets under their control that they had captured over time, not just one planet they all exploded out from one day and tried to take over.

A bit of both. I found her writing sub-par at best, her non-Mando characters mostly acting out of character and rather weak willed, and her story structure rather weak especially when she adds Mando arcs to otherwise Mando-less stories (not that she was the only one to have her own pet-culture/people during Caedus arc which should have been cut out or centralized).


And it's not like they're the only ones with an anti-Jedi resource on their home planet. Cortosis not only resists a lightsaber, but shorts it out. Phrik is like the Mandalorian metal, just found elsewhere. There's even an armored cloth that provides some protection against lightsabers. Then there's planets like Myrkr that have creatures that turn off force powers, the Ysalamir. Their metal isn't really that special, one could get similar anti-jedi gear elsewhere.

True, there are other special metals. But Cortosis was brittle, Phryk was rare and distributed around all cultures that were wealthy enough for it, and I honestly know nothing about this armor cloth. Mando's are still the only one with their own super metal.

[Reverent-One]

True, there are other special metals. But Cortosis was brittle, Phryk was rare and distributed around all cultures that were wealthy enough for it, and I honestly know nothing about this armor cloth. Mando's are still the only one with their own super metal.

Which, like Phryk, is rare. Many Mando's use more standard materials for their armor.

[hamishspence]

For example, Rage-quitting her work on her book series because a childrens show ret-conned some of her work, admittedly it is ridiculous but you are working with star-wars.

That was a secondary reason- the primary reason was contract issues.

Personally, the only Traviss novel I found generally enjoyable, was the one with no Mandos, only clones- Clone Wars: No Prisoners.

It focuses primarily on Pellaeon, Rex, and Ahsoka- with Callista and her Jedi Master Djin Altis as major characters.

On armour- cortosis ore is portrayed as brittle (in Hand of Thrawn) but also very very hard (in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction) and able to be alloyed with other metals to produce lightsaber-resistant armor.

[pendell]

I've read the Republic Commando novels by Travis and very little else by her.
Triple Zero is an urban counter-terrorism story with star wars flavor. Hard Contact is a straight up snatch-and-grab story with, again, star wars flavor. Jedi are rare, but when they make an appearance they have unique abilities which complement the normal fighting men and women quite nicely.

So I don't see the Ultimate Mary Sue issues in those stories people are complaining about. Possibly those issues show up in other novels in the New Jedi Order era, and those books I wouldn't read on a bet anyway, so it's all good :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I think the biggest complaints came from Order 66 and 501st- where much is made of the Jedi's "leading a slave army", and where Jedi outside of the main Order tend to disapprove of it.

[pendell]

I think the biggest complaints came from Order 66 and 501st- where much is made of the Jedi's "leading a slave army", and where Jedi outside of the main Order tend to disapprove of it.

I thought the major complaint was mary sue-ness, and commanding a slave army doesn't have anything to do with it.

And the clones are a slave army. They have no rights and exist for one purpose: To exterminate the Jedi on Palpatine's command. Given that the force was specifically designed and trained for this mission, it's no surprise the clone army was able to kill Jedi. It's what they designed for.

So I have a great deal of sympathy for Kal Skirata and company who want to assist clones to desert from an army they never swore an oath to and build a human life where they make their own choices.

I can see both sides points of view: The clones and the Mandalorians who trained them view the creation of the clone army -- of manufacturing sentients specifically as tools of war, to be used and discarded like wet droids -- to be a vile crime.

I haven't seen any Jedi in the stories dispute that, or ever state that a clone is less than human. Stupid civilians say that, Jedi never. But the Jedi would also argue that they didn't have another army to hand to fight the clone wars, and using the tool was better than simply letting the Separatists roll over the Republic.

At the end of the day, the Jedi's willingness to use the clone army and not ask too many questions came to bite them when that same army turned on them and killed them all. The sin received poetic justice, and the books were balanced. That's film-canon, not EU-canon.

If you were to ask Yoda at the time of training Luke on Hoth whether the Mandalorians and others were right in saying that maybe they should have asked a few more questions before allowing themselves to be used as pawns in a war -- well, given the results, I suspect Yoda and George Lucas would both agree!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

So I don't see the Ultimate Mary Sue issues in those stories people are complaining about. Possibly those issues show up in other novels in the New Jedi Order era, and those books I wouldn't read on a bet anyway, so it's all good :).


Specifically, it's the late era of the Darth Caedus arc. Jaina goes to train with the Mandalorians to be able to kill her brother. In the camp, the mandalorians and the narrator go to extreme lengths to point out why the Jedi deserved exterminating, flat out state that anything that's not part of Mandalorina culture is beneath contempt, and generally elevate Mandalions as the only "real" civilization in the galaxy.

[Gaius Marius]

Specifically, it's the late era of the Darth Caedus arc. Jaina goes to train with the Mandalorians to be able to kill her brother. In the camp, the mandalorians and the narrator go to extreme lengths to point out why the Jedi deserved exterminating, flat out state that anything that's not part of Mandalorina culture is beneath contempt, and generally elevate Mandalions as the only "real" civilization in the galaxy.

Isn't that a deliberate and blatant case of Unreliable narrator?

[pendell]

Specifically, it's the late era of the Darth Caedus arc. Jaina goes to train with the Mandalorians to be able to kill her brother. In the camp, the mandalorians and the narrator go to extreme lengths to point out why the Jedi deserved exterminating, flat out state that anything that's not part of Mandalorina culture is beneath contempt, and generally elevate Mandalions as the only "real" civilization in the galaxy.

Thank you. I haven't read that particular story, and I am very glad I didn't, in that case.

ETA: One thing that came across loud and clear in the RC novels is that the Mandalorians are very, very ethnocentric. If you're family, they love you and will do anything for you. If you're an outsider, an aruetise, then you're a traitor, soul-less, dead. Mandos think nothing of hurting or abusing aruetise.

It makes perfect sense that Mandos in the Caedus era should continue that not-so-proud tradition of bigotry. Doesn't mean anyone else in the galaxy agrees with them, or that we the reader should be expected to believe it either.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reverent-One]

Specifically, it's the late era of the Darth Caedus arc. Jaina goes to train with the Mandalorians to be able to kill her brother. In the camp, the mandalorians and the narrator go to extreme lengths to point out why the Jedi deserved exterminating, flat out state that anything that's not part of Mandalorina culture is beneath contempt, and generally elevate Mandalions as the only "real" civilization in the galaxy.

What? You mean there are Mandalorians (a good number even) that are arrogant and think little of the Jedi? Inconcieveable!

[Gnoman]

It's not jsut the Mandos, or even the narrator supporting this that people dislike. Every character in the book agrees.

[pendell]

It's not jsut the Mandos, or even the narrator supporting this that people dislike. Every character in the book agrees.

Then I'll have to treat that particular volume the way I treat the Matrix movie ; it's a darn shame they never made any sequels to that terrific movie ;).

Which volume is it, so I can avoid it like a cliche?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reverent-One]

It's not jsut the Mandos, or even the narrator supporting this that people dislike. Every character in the book agrees.

And that's just entirely false. Draala (and I'm sure a few others) agrees with the Mandos about the Jedi (which isn't surprising), but the Mandos are the ones who think so highly of their culture, not the rest of the characters.


Then I'll have to treat that particular volume the way I treat the Matrix movie ; it's a darn shame they never made any sequels to that terrific movie ;).

Which volume is it, so I can avoid it like a cliche?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Why take a few exaggerated posts on the internet as the absolute truth? If you did that, you'd have avoided reading any of her books, including the Republic Commando series.

[Gnoman]

No. Luke Skywalker supports the Mandalorian philosophy, at least in that book. Everyone stops doing so afterward, but within that work, Mandalorians are the gods of the universe, and anyone else is garbage to be ground beneath their heel.

[Reverent-One]

No. Luke Skywalker supports the Mandalorian philosophy, at least in that book. Everyone stops doing so afterward, but within that work, Mandalorians are the gods of the universe, and anyone else is garbage to be ground beneath their heel.

Then surely you can give some actual quotes.

[H Birchgrove]

If someone will claim to me that Star Trek fans are more geeky than Star Wars fans, I'll show him or her this thread, or at least mention the Expanded Universe and the concept of C-canon. :smalltongue:

[Gaius Marius]

If someone will claim to me that Star Trek fans are more geeky than Star Wars fans, I'll show him or her this thread, or at least mention the Expanded Universe and the concept of C-canon. :smalltongue:

Geekiness is never about the source material, but about the capacity of the geek himself..

Since all geeks are created equal, no subject matter has a worse geekdom* than any other.

*Except Tolkien geekdom. They have half a century headstart over the other mainstream geekdoms

[WalkingTarget]

*Except Tolkien geekdom. They have half a century headstart over the other mainstream geekdoms

There's also Lovecraft geekdom if you're going by age of the source material. HPL died several months before the first publication of The Hobbit. Granted, it's probably a much smaller population than Tolkien-fans.

[Holocron Coder]

Response to the jedi/sith having "stronger" or "weaker" members:

I always took the "stronger" and "weaker" to not be a "mana pool" sort of thing, but more of a "nozzle capacity" sort of deal. Any jedi, with enough time and focus, can lift an X-wing.

But stronger ones can do it faster, due to large output per second. In a straight-up competition, it means that a stronger jedi beats out the weaker one, but in the long term (sometimes extremely long term), they can do the same thing, roughly.

(Palpatine opening force wormholes in a couple minutes vs it taking the weakest with more than his lifespan to do the same, etc).

Also it's noted that Luke is the strongest force user, as others have said, and it is displayed nicely in his confrontation with Darth Caedus. Luke pins the relatively powerful Darth against a wall with a motion of his finger and is holding a conversation and sorting through a computer and papers while holding him there, to the point where Caedus cannot even lift his head from the wall.

Subtle, but powerful :smallbiggrin:

[Xondoure]

Clones as slaves: yes
Issue with the Clones themselves being against slavery: G cannon they've been brainwashed since birth to obey the orders of Palpatine and to a lesser extent the Republic, in their minds there is nothing wrong with their duty and to insult their cause would be wrong.
Admittedly its hard to see a truly just order being okay with employing such an army. And there is substantial proof within the prequels that the Jedi order had begun to fall. (My personal theory: they were so afraid of falling that that fear started them down the path.) At least in my opinion the Clone Wars cartoon goes a long way to show the relationship between the clones and the Jedi. They don't see them as slaves but equals who are fighting the same war. Its a long ways from "evil overlords forcing armies of the enslaved to their doom for laughs" but still not as clean cut as Lucas envisioned it. But, well, this is coming from the guy who gave us R2 and C3PO and then said "Its okay they are only killing droids so it doesn't count!"

EU: can go cry in a hole whenever it does dumb things like raise the power scale over 9000, create a race of badass "normals" that turn out to be Boba Fett clones with better reflexes and fighting skills than opponents with precognitive abilities, or fabricate moral issues because the dark side is so much cooler and why should they be the bad guys instead of those nasty boring jedi with their oh so "high" moral ground and arrogant attitudes to the rest of the galaxy?

That said some of the EU is still better than the prequels. If only they had never existed because they did more to break apart the image of the Jedi and Star Wars in general than the EU ever did.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've been thinking, and here's what I have to say about whether or not Star Wars has declined in quality and that George Lucas is a nutjob: Screw it!

I loved Star Wars as a kid. I even enjoyed the prequels. I've read a few of the EU novels and enjoyed them. I don't care what other fans say. Star Wars, prequels and changes and all, will always be one of my favorite series of movies, and George Lucas will remain one of my heroes no matter what!

[Tirian]

*Except Tolkien geekdom. They have half a century headstart over the other mainstream geekdoms

I'll just leave this link here without any discussion at all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtnN_DiP3o).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'll just leave this link here without any discussion at all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtnN_DiP3o).
Awesome! And hilarious! :smallbiggrin: