Is Call Lightning "undetectable" ??

[Kado]

If my player is hidden inside a structure and cast the spell call lightning on an enemy outside of the house, is there a way they can know that the caster is in the house or is Call Lightning is Stealth proof ?

[Krazzman]

I would say, if they can hear him, they hear him and might be able to pinpoint him.

But that's just how I would handle it.

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

[KillianHawkeye]

I believe you'd still need line of effect to the point of origin of each lightning bolt, so you'd be unable to be completely blocked off. However, since the bolts come down from the sky (or whatever), there really isn't anything drawing attention to your character, meaning that it should be possible to Hide using whatever cover you have available to you. In that situation, it would still be possible (albeit somewhat unlikely) for the target to find and attack you.

[ericgrau]

You have to speak in a strong voice when you first cast it too, plus line of effect to the center of the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

It's Listen DC 0 to hear people using clear voices, but -1 to the check for every 10' distance, and Call Lightning is Medium range (100' + 10'/level), or 150' at the minimum caster level. That distance imposes -15 to the check, and another -5 for "Listener distracted" if there's combat.

So no, not stealth proof, but you've got a good chance of going unnoticed by characters without ranks in Listen.

[panaikhan]

can you use metamagic?
Be a lot harder for someone to pinpoint a Silent Call Lightning from 100+ feet away, if he's having to look for movement.

[Jack_Simth]

If my player is hidden inside a structure and cast the spell call lightning on an enemy outside of the house, is there a way they can know that the caster is in the house or is Call Lightning is Stealth proof ?
At the time of casting, Call Lightning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm) has a Verbal Component (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components), which requires you to "speak in a strong voice". Per the Listen Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), "People talking" is DC 0, but there's a -1 per 10 feet of distance, and a penalty if you're listening through walls. So at the time of casting it's very obvious, but distance can make things hard to distinguish anyway.

However, when you're calling the lightning down is a different story. Call Lightning is a slightly unusual spell, in that you don't have to use it immediately. Calling the lightning bolt is a standard action. That's it. You get a maximum of ten of them, but it's just concentration. No sound at all (other than what the bolt itself produces, of course, but that doesn't tell them where you are).

That said, you still need Line-of-Effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect), so they still have a chance to spot you via normal means - Spot vs. Hide, Blindsense, Blindsight, Arcane Sight, Detect Magic, See Invisibility (if you're invisible), True Seeing (if you've taken on a different form to blend in), and so on.

[CTrees]

Silent, Still Call Lightning should allow for hiding and casting, and should be darned hard to detect. Now, guards with Arcane Sight (or similar)? Seems like that should show not only that the bolt was magical, but also the magic used in casting, pinpointing the caster nicely. Something to think about.

More interesting is Quicken - I don't see it on the SRD, but I thought the fluff used to say it shortened a spell to a single gesture and a single, quick syllable. Regardless, it does not remove the verbal components of spells. Question is, does the spell take effect concurrently, or immediately after casting is completed? If they're done at the same time, the thunderclap, going with the lightning bolt, could potentially drown out the casting.

[ThiefInTheNight]

You presumably need line of effect to the origin of the bolt, though, which could make it pretty easy to have the ability to hit them without them while having total cover.

[CTrees]

You presumably need line of effect to the origin of the bolt, though, which could make it pretty easy to have the ability to hit them without them while having total cover.

I'm a Druid. I'm 100' away, hidden in the branches of a tree. Also, I'm a squirrel.

Actually, that might even remove the difficulty of Listen checks - a squirrel chattering away isn't something of which people are likely to take notice.

[Xtomjames]

Use Remote Spell Casting (metamagic feat) and then you can cast it from inside a building without needing a line of effect. You just need to know where the person is (like seeing them through a window or hole in the wall.

[KillianHawkeye]

Use Remote Spell Casting (metamagic feat) and then you can cast it from inside a building without needing a line of effect. You just need to know where the person is (like seeing them through a window or hole in the wall.

Hmm... where's that feat from? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

Use Remote Spell Casting (metamagic feat)
Is that more homebrew? It's not in the official WotC feat list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), nor in the DragonDex index (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/feats.html).

[CTrees]

Is that more homebrew? It's not in the official WotC feat list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), nor in the DragonDex index (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/feats.html).

I've found some references to it from 3rd party sources. *shrug*

[ThiefInTheNight]

However, Cityscape's Deceptive Spell might do for this purpose, anyway: it creates the illusion that a spell comes from somewhere else. You still need LoE as normal, though, and it explicitly does nothing about cover or concealment or whatever.

[Kado]

So calling a lightning once the spell is active don't make any sound or special movement (no Verbal nor Somatic) and so is kind of "undetectable" by normal means. But the druid needs to have LoE and may hide (or be a squirrel 150' away).
Ok well, thx for the answers ^^

[Xtomjames]

Remote Casting is found in the D20 Feats book, two Sword and Sorcery books, and an AEG book.

[TriForce]

when you call down lighning bolts after casting the spell, you need to have line of effect and use a standard action. it isnt mentioned in the rules, but when i dm, i usually rule that in order to direct a bolt of lightning, the druid would need to do more then just stare at a person, id say that he would probably use a wave from his hand to direct the bolt or something, simply becouse it makes more sense to me. if you also rule that, then the person making hand gestures towards you is a fairly obvious sign that the lightning isnt completly normal.

[CTrees]

Remote Casting is found in the D20 Feats book, two Sword and Sorcery books, and an AEG book.

So, third party. Got it.


when you call down lighning bolts after casting the spell, you need to have line of effect and use a standard action. it isnt mentioned in the rules, but when i dm, i usually rule that in order to direct a bolt of lightning, the druid would need to do more then just stare at a person, id say that he would probably use a wave from his hand to direct the bolt or something, simply becouse it makes more sense to me. if you also rule that, then the person making hand gestures towards you is a fairly obvious sign that the lightning isnt completly normal.

Fair, but not RAW. Also, more reason to be a squirrel.

[Boci]

I'm a Druid. I'm 100' away, hidden in the branches of a tree. Also, I'm a squirrel.

Actually, that might even remove the difficulty of Listen checks - a squirrel chattering away isn't something of which people are likely to take notice.

That might work, but by RAW anyone who can hear a spell being cast gets a spellcraft check to identify it based on the verbal components, and natural spell doesn't change this. Still a good option if no one nearby has ranks in spellcraft.

On a related subject, the vague nature of verbal components leaves a lot of room for stealth casting. All we really know is that you need to say them in a strong voice. Given that you can identify spells spoken in (presumably) foreign languages, identifying verbal components seems to be more about sensing the power infused with the words rather than the words themselves. So can I use, "I say, look at the sky!" as my verbal component for call lightening?


if you also rule that, then the person making hand gestures towards you is a fairly obvious sign that the lightning isnt completly normal.

Depends on how creative the player is and how leniant the DM. The player could for example point at the target and say "You, get down!"

[CTrees]

That might work, but by RAW anyone who can hear a spell being cast gets a spellcraft check to identify it based on the verbal components, and natural spell doesn't change this. Still a good option if no one nearby has ranks in spellcraft.

Actually, there's some ambiguity - a spellcraft check is allowed, but is it an automatic check (like a spot check), or a check the listener is simply allowed to make, if he so chooses? If the former, yeah, Silent Spell still is a reasonable addition. If the latter, well, there's nothing suspicious about a squirrel chittering (they do that, often for reasons like "warning other squirrels there's a human around"), so there should be no reason for an observer to opt to make the Spellcraft check. Spellcraft to identify a spell is simply listed as "no action required," indicating you either know or you don't (it's faster than a free action, basically), but again... it's ambiguous.

[Boci]

Actually, there's some ambiguity - a spellcraft check is allowed, but is it an automatic check (like a spot check), or a check the listener is simply allowed to make, if he so chooses?

I'd say the former, because the latter forces the player be choose between their character being smart (try and identify every sound as a spell just in case) vs. not bogging the game down by making loads of dice rolls. Its just better if the DM rolls when a spell is actually being cast.

[CTrees]

Probably the best, yeah. Just like the old needing to disbelieve illusions - a save made when interacting is vastly preferable to "I disbelieve the air!"

[Boci]

Probably the best, yeah. Just like the old needing to disbelieve illusions - a save made when interacting is vastly preferable to "I disbelieve the air!"

That's slightly different since its actually changing the rules. In 2E a DM could have a taking tyhe sane aproach of "You will never need to disbelive anything from your own initiative. Whenver there is an illusion, and sometimes when there isn't, I will roll the disbelieve checks for eveyone present". The interaction rule is better, I'm just saying the disbelieve rules didn't have to result in AGC scenes.

[CTrees]

They're not completely similar, but they are analogous - shifting the rule to the DM making checks when appropriate vs. having players declare them, potentially at every inane occurence (that horse whinnied! I roll a Spellcraft check!). My current group actually ran into this problem with Sense Motive (honest quotation of the culmination of this: "I Sense Motive on the fog!" "The fog's motives seem hazy").