3.5: Character idea: "I'm helping!": need always on passive party wide buffs.

[deuxhero]

I had a silly character idea for the lulz: Get as many worthwhile always on passive boosts to the party (debuffs on the enemy count as well for this). I'd prefer (greatly) to keep full BAB and non-squishy, but the general idea is helping the party while doing nothing.

I'm stuck at Paladin of Tyranny 3/Duskblade (dark companion ACF) 4 which gives a nice -4 to enemy saves. If I could figure out how to get hide/move silently cleanly for a level (Ranger 1 or Swashbuckler 1 is the most obvious option, though there has to be a better dip) Dread Commando (mmhmm... initiative) would be neat (The character is likely going to have able learner anyways due to all the moving around classes). Marshall is (stupidly) 3/4s, and even if DMed away to 1/1, doesn't give passive boosts that are THAT worthwhile.


Any classes I could implement? Feats? Martial Study/Stance can get me one of the hide/silent duo as a skill, but not the other (forget which one), and opens a stance from the school I forgot.

[Zaq]

Dragon Shaman and Marshal both have no-action auras (well, OK, swift action to activate, but once it's on, it's on). You can get some Dragon Shaman auras with a feat, and if you're dragonblooded, they actually scale. Neither is full BAB (as you noted, at least for the Marshal), but the feat doesn't care.

There are a few White Raven stances that give party buffs, as well.

[deuxhero]

Are the DS's auras any good (particularly "good as a dip")? Marshall isn't that good.

Wait! Doesn't DS give hide/move silent with the right totem?

[Shpadoinkle]

The only Dragon Shaman aura that's really any good from a level 1 dip is the Vigor aura, which grants you and all allies within 30' fast healing 1, but only works on characters with 50% or fewer of their maximum HP. The others are stuff like "+1 to bluff and diplomacy checks" and "any enemy hitting you or an ally in melee takes 2 points of energy damage." Even if you're advancing solely as a dragon shaman, the auras (besides Vigor, and you can max out its usefulness with a single level of the class) never really get any good.

A marshal's auras have much the same problem in that they're not bad effects, but they simply scale way too slowly to ever be noticeably useful. If you changed how fast these bonuses advanced then they could be good, but you'd have to talk to your DM about that. Anything slower than +1 every other level is going to be too slow to be very notable beyond third level, though.

[deuxhero]

Was I recalling correctly about skills?

[hex0]

I'm actually working on a Dragon Shaman fix right now, but I still think it is an overlooked class. Copper Dragon gets spider climb at will, too. The breath weapon is nice (especially with the metabreath feats!), there is a feat to have 2 auras at once...

[Urpriest]

Why do you want full BAB on a character who never hits anything? :smallconfused:

[deuxhero]

Feats and Prc mostly. Being able to hit something is also a decent enough secondary role.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Would you consider Persistent spells passive?

[Jack_Simth]

Depends a bit on level, but....

Cloistered Cleric, with Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell), and a pile of Nightsticks (Libris Mortis).

Lots of Cleric spells are fixed-range nonpersonal, and subject to Persistent spell. Mass (Lesser) Vigor (Spell Compendium), Bless, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium), Recitation (Spell Compendium), Positive Energy Aura, and a number of others.

To get full BAB, persist Divine Power on yourself.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Depends a bit on level, but....

Cloistered Cleric, with Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell), and a pile of Nightsticks (Libris Mortis).

Lots of Cleric spells are fixed-range nonpersonal, and subject to Persistent spell. Mass (Lesser) Vigor (Spell Compendium), Bless, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium), Recitation (Spell Compendium), Positive Energy Aura, and a number of others.

To get full BAB, persist Divine Power on yourself.

The reason I asked my question. Also a lot of sanctified spells from Book of Exalted Deeds are pretty good buffs. Throw up a Sheltered Vitality just as those buffs are about to end (or make it a 24 hour buff that is cast LAST so it still is in effect as the other spells end) and you don't have to pay the sacrifice.

[flabort]

Question, which is better:
-Prepared caster with Divine Metamagic and turns to fuel it
-A spontaneous caster with Rapid Metamagic (C. Mage)

Say someone took the Spontaneous Divine ACF on top of cloistered cleric, and took rapid metamagic. And persist.
Worse or Better than DMM (Persist)?

I'd guess the second, since it doesn't require specifying a metamagic feat when you take it.

[Urpriest]

Question, which is better:
-Prepared caster with Divine Metamagic and turns to fuel it
-A spontaneous caster with Rapid Metamagic (C. Mage)

Say someone took the Spontaneous Divine ACF on top of cloistered cleric, and took rapid metamagic. And persist.
Worse or Better than DMM (Persist)?

I'd guess the second, since it doesn't require specifying a metamagic feat when you take it.

The latter has to pay the full cost of the metamagic. I don't even see how they're comparable.

[Jack_Simth]

Question, which is better:
-Prepared caster with Divine Metamagic and turns to fuel it
-A spontaneous caster with Rapid Metamagic (C. Mage)

Say someone took the Spontaneous Divine ACF on top of cloistered cleric, and took rapid metamagic. And persist.
Worse or Better than DMM (Persist)?

I'd guess the second, since it doesn't require specifying a metamagic feat when you take it.
Divine Metamagic is for getting rid of the metamagic slot cost. So you can Persist Mass Lesser Vigor (a 3rd level spell) at level 5.

The spontaneous divine caster variant drops you a tier (short list of known spells, but cast them as needed - Sorcerer vs. Wizard), and Rapid Metamagic doesn't change that. It also doesn't get rid of the slot cost for Persistent Spell - which means you can't Persist Mass Lesser Vigor until you have access to 9th level spell slots (17th level).

So which is better: Fast healing 1 all day starting at level 5, or fast healing 1 all day starting at level 17?

[Draz74]

Black, Green, or White Dragon Shamans do indeed get Hide and Move Silently as class skills. (Several other colors get Hide, but not Move Silently. Incidentally, Swashbuckler does not have stealth skills in-class.)

Vigor isn't the only Dragon Shaman aura that's worthwhile, though, if you can get them to scale (e.g. by gaining them via Feat on a dragonblooded character). Senses aura, particularly, is quite worthwhile.

[Xtomjames]

Play a Bard, Wizard, Sorc (or Battle Mage) with the metamagic feats Persist and Enduring.

[deuxhero]

^^ Only roughly familiar with DS. Does alignment force green? Do any of the possible choices get other tricks at a level 1 dip? Skills per level? Also: Forgot if MS: (shadow hand) get Hide or Move Silent...


Well anyways, that's Dragon Shaman 1/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Duskblade 4/Dread Commando 5. 7 levels left, and 3 feats used (Able Learner+Dodge+Mobility). Wonder how viable this is in play, wonder how viable it is as an opponent (evil alignment).


Would you consider Persistent spells passive?

Dispel magic=no.

[CyMage]

A marshal's auras have much the same problem in that they're not bad effects, but they simply scale way too slowly to ever be noticeably useful. If you changed how fast these bonuses advanced then they could be good, but you'd have to talk to your DM about that. Anything slower than +1 every other level is going to be too slow to be very notable beyond third level, though.

Honestly, most of the really useful Marshall auras are the Minor auras, which are Charisma based. Depending on your party make up, taking the Initiative or damage while flanking aura would be a great benefit for one level. You're already taking PoT levels, which means you're likely to have a positive modifier.

[Little Brother]

Well anyways, that's Dragon Shaman 1/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Duskblade 4/Dread Commando 5. 7 levels left, and 3 feats used (Able Learner+Dodge+Mobility). Wonder how viable this is in play, wonder how viable it is as an opponent (evil alignment).That seems...underwhelming to awful. A bard is better in every way that I can see, unless you REALLY want those saves, then Pally 2/Bard X seems better. DFI, decent IC optimization, good list, Snowflake Wardance to hit. If you need better melee than that, you got the Slippers of Battledancing(DMGII), Gaunlet of Heartfelt Blows(Dragon 324, I think), you can use the Vest of Legends and a Masterwork Lute to be +6 levels of bard for music, there's also an Echoblade for damage. If you need to hit more, there's stuff like Knowledge Devotion. Bards have a great list, and if you need more, go Sublime Chord. I can go on, but I think I've made my point.

Dispel magic=no.If your buffs are being dispelled, you're doing it wrong.

[deuxhero]

Aside from the fact that the build is illegal (Bards, for some REALLY stupid reason, can't be Lawful, Paladin's must). IC boosts ally saves (not familar with DFI). This build gives -4 to enemy saves (ontop of curse use if you work it) and +4 (I think it was 4) initiative, making anyone that focuses on save based attacks deadier (instead of more durable).

[Jack_Simth]

Aside from the fact that the build is illegal (Bards, for some REALLY stupid reason, can't be Lawful, Paladin's must)There's a feat for that - "Devoted Performer", I think - that permits a paladin to multiclass as a bard, explicitly despite the alignment issues (by permitting a LG bard to advance as a bard).

[deuxhero]

True, forgot about that.

[Little Brother]

Aside from the fact that the build is illegal (Bards, for some REALLY stupid reason, can't be Lawful, Paladin's must), -4 saves (ontop of curse use if you bother) +4 initiative at least gives you a really deadly wizard.Uh, Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter? Or just straight bard? Or you can take a dip in Bone Knight to forget that pesky code, and get a nifty set of armor. And I'm not seeing why you'd start all encounters within 30 feet, where the Wizard is coming from, or why you'd want to run a bad build for initiative. If you want just high initiative, go Factotum 3/Marshal 1 for Cha+Int to all dex-based stuff. And Paladin of Slaughter also gets that nice -4 to saves, and bards get nice debuffs and buffs. Look up Improvisation, from SpC. This build, you see, can actually do things beyond waving pom-poms. Your plan is "I hope I do a good enough job cheerleading, maybe the enemies won't think I'm fighting."

[Kyouhen]

Have you considered dipping into Divine Mind? I took a 1 level dip of that with one of my characters, and even with only a 5" aura setting it to initiative is still a massive help. Especially if you take the Time Mantle.