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The Giant
2011-09-19, 05:41 PM
New comic is up.

Really, this time.

Whiffet
2011-09-19, 05:41 PM
It's up now! Hooray!

... and it's been confirmed that the spell Durkon was learning is Mass Death Ward. And his accent prevents it from working. I like it! :smallbiggrin:

MoonCat
2011-09-19, 05:42 PM
My take: Durkon tries to utter a Holy Word, but due to his accent no one understands it, so Sabine and Elan are unaffected by it.

I cannot belive it, you were RIGHT!

Shale
2011-09-19, 05:42 PM
Man, Thor's customer service is terrible.

Timeless Error
2011-09-19, 05:42 PM
"Cleric's feather fall." Heh.

Also, Thor customer service truly is terrible.

Lord Loss
2011-09-19, 05:43 PM
That was awesome! (I'm kinda wondering if Durkon really will get something from Thor, happy to see his reappearance)

Keep up the good work.

Kyronea
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
"Cleric's feather fall." Heh.

Also, Thor customer service truly is terrible.

Indeed. Of all the callback jokes that had to strike the OOTS, it had to be this one.

warmachine
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
"Cleric's Feather Fall" I'm going to use that joke in a game someday.

Silva Stormrage
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
The cleric's feather fall line was one of the funnier jokes for me in a while. Love the new strip.

SoC175
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
So what was the last joke supposed to be? The other continent being too far away for Thor to hear properly?

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
So he spent ALL THAT TIME researching it, but he needs to pronounce it slowly and carefully or it doesn't work? This is why all spellcasters have American accents.

zyphyr
2011-09-19, 05:44 PM
Poor Durkon.

JSSheridan
2011-09-19, 05:46 PM
Thanks Giant!

Gift Jeraff
2011-09-19, 05:46 PM
I looove how Durkon is just nonchalantly surprised at Z's return, not the rest of the Linear Guild. Basically the readers' reaction. :smallbiggrin:

Forikroder
2011-09-19, 05:47 PM
so it seems that Nale is indeed shy one divine spellcaster

Shale
2011-09-19, 05:47 PM
So what was the last joke supposed to be? The other continent being too far away for Thor to hear properly?

Or to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html). Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain would come in pretty handy right now...

Sanguine
2011-09-19, 05:48 PM
Holy Enunciation Batman! Sorry, I had to do it.

B.I.T.T.
2011-09-19, 05:48 PM
Good comic. Much better then the one with the red "X".

One Step Two
2011-09-19, 05:48 PM
Poor Durkon, all that work, and still no result.

Gwynfrid
2011-09-19, 05:49 PM
I cannot belive it, you were RIGHT!

My... Yes, pretty much. I can't believe it either ! :confused:

(Goes to award himself a cookie from the jar).

Oh, and by the way: Grrreat comic, thanks Rich !

John Cribati
2011-09-19, 05:49 PM
"Cleric's Feather Fall." I have to use that one.

Toper
2011-09-19, 05:50 PM
This one's pretty funny even by OOTS standards, between Feather Fall, the startling return of Zz'dtri, and the holey words. (Although it was even funnier when I thought Elan considered "ditch" to be the holier version of... a less holy word.)

Bogsworth
2011-09-19, 05:51 PM
Well, with Thor's customer service things could have turned out much worse for Durkon. Like interpreting that as "Mass Death Word," like some obscure Power Word: Kill that annihilates all things in an area. :smalleek:

Orzel
2011-09-19, 05:51 PM
Well my guess in the first thread was backwards. He spoke in his accent and failed the spell instead of speaking clearly and getting a boost.

New flaw. Heavy Aceent: 5% chance of divine casting failure

Just like a cleric. Using flaws to make a strong class even stronger. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

MoonCat
2011-09-19, 05:52 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

Whiffet
2011-09-19, 05:55 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

Cleric's Feather Fall is using Heal after Elan has already fallen.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-19, 05:55 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

A wizards feather fall stops fall damage. A cleric just heals the damage away.:smallbiggrin:
Edit: Ninja'd! I blame that big, delicious cake. (Malak WOULD be helping, but there's cake. A tasty one.)

Aricandor
2011-09-19, 05:56 PM
A wizard could save a buddy from fall damage by casting Feather Fall. Clerics generally can't cast that spell, so the best they can do is heal up the damage afterwards. :smallsmile:

B.I.T.T.
2011-09-19, 05:56 PM
Well my guess in the first thread was backwards. He spoke in his accent and failed the spell instead of speaking clearly and getting a boost.

New flaw. Heavy Aceent: 5% chance of divine casting failure

Just like a cleric. Using flaws to make a strong class even stronger. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

...or he spoke clearly and Thor 'n them got so used to his heavy accent that that assumed he was pronouncing something they'd never heard of.

NerfTW
2011-09-19, 05:57 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

It's a heal spell. A "cleric's feather fall" just means letting them fall and then healing them.

SoC175
2011-09-19, 05:57 PM
Well my guess in the first thread was backwards. He spoke in his accent and failed the spell instead of speaking clearly and getting a boost. But he spoke the spell clearly

Orzel
2011-09-19, 05:58 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

Feather fall lower the distance fell thus lowering fall damage.
A cleric cant cast Feather Fall normally. Instead they just take the falling damage and healling the damage.

It's like Rogue's Dimension Door (Escape Artist, running away fast and using tumble/jump/climb/swim)

EmperorSarda
2011-09-19, 05:59 PM
Could someone explain Cleric's Feather Fall?

Yeah. Clerics cannot cast feather fall. So Heal is their feather fall since it heals almost all damage.

Gift Jeraff
2011-09-19, 05:59 PM
Elan's missing battle damage from Nale's sword in panel 3.

MoonCat
2011-09-19, 06:00 PM
Oh, I see. thank you all.

Whiffet
2011-09-19, 06:00 PM
...or he spoke clearly and Thor 'n them got so used to his heavy accent that that assumed he was pronouncing something they'd never heard of.

I like this better than what I assumed.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-19, 06:01 PM
Elan's missing battle damage from Nale's sword in panel 3.

No. Thats the Dashing Swordsman power that, when in times of "The Cavalry has Arrived", all damage is considered nonexistant for .5 rounds for every level of Dashing Swordsman taken. :smallsmile: This is a joke.

EmperorSarda
2011-09-19, 06:02 PM
Well my guess in the first thread was backwards. He spoke in his accent and failed the spell instead of speaking clearly and getting a boost.

New flaw. Heavy Aceent: 5% chance of divine casting failure

Just like a cleric. Using flaws to make a strong class even stronger. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

Excepting traditionally you don't research Cleric spells. You get them from the deity; so I figure you'd have talk to some angel management to get them to recognize the spell at the very least.

Unless Mass Death Ward is a clerical spell largely forgotten and Durkon is rediscovering through research.

DreadArchon
2011-09-19, 06:05 PM
Huh, I would think that restoring Haley would take priority, maybe he doesn't have anything memorized for that. :smalleek:

TheBlackShadow
2011-09-19, 06:10 PM
I like how Durkon swears by "Thor's aching bunions" in the second panel and at the end Thor mentions how he needs to "go soak [his] feet". Clearly Durkon knows a lot about his chosen deity.

KingFlameHawk
2011-09-19, 06:11 PM
Just noticed a joke I missed the first time I read it. In panel to Durkon said "Thor's aching bunions!" and in the last panel Thor needs to go soak his feet.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Edit: Ninja'd

ORione
2011-09-19, 06:12 PM
Huh, I would think that restoring Haley would take priority, maybe he doesn't have anything memorized for that. :smalleek:

Vaarsuvius said he had Break Enchantment. I'm sure he'll get to it.

With this kind of customer service, I'm surprised anyone worships Thor.

Maybe Mass Death Ward isn't viable. That's an unfortunate way to find out.

t209
2011-09-19, 06:15 PM
What is Mass Death Ward's ability? I am new to D&D Spell (except Magic Missle).

Ted The Bug
2011-09-19, 06:16 PM
Ok, "Cleric's Feather Fall" had me literally laughing out loud. That was just great.

Valwyn
2011-09-19, 06:18 PM
I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists :smallconfused:. It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.

Anyway, it's great to have ThorPrayer back :smalltongue: I wonder if Durkon can sue Him?

EmperorSarda
2011-09-19, 06:18 PM
What is Mass Death Ward's ability? I am new to D&D Spell (except Magic Missle).

If anything like Death Ward, it protects against death effects and energy/level draining.

EmperorSarda
2011-09-19, 06:19 PM
I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists :smallconfused:. It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.


My thoughts precisely.

Although for divine spell research, in case it doesn't exist, shouldn't he work with Thor since Thor is who grants the spells?

Valwyn
2011-09-19, 06:25 PM
What is Mass Death Ward's ability? I am new to D&D Spell (except Magic Missle).


DEATH WARD, MASS
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 8, druid 9
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart

Sensing the spark of life in your allies through your magic, you bolster that spark and protect it from harm.

This spell functions like death ward (PH 217), except as noted above.
TWH? Can't you read the quotes, "Preview Post"?

Death Ward
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Death 4, Drd 5, Pal 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from inflict spells or chill touch).

This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.

Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks, such as hit point loss, poison, or petrification, even if those attacks might be lethal.

The Succubus
2011-09-19, 06:28 PM
Mass Deaf Horde. Sounds like a standard day at work for me. :smallwink:

The Giant
2011-09-19, 06:34 PM
I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists :smallconfused:. It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.

She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

Mantine
2011-09-19, 06:40 PM
Well, would you look at that. Another conveniently placed deus ex machina to balance the odds in favour of the bad guys.
How new and exciting.

Ladorak
2011-09-19, 06:42 PM
'Cleric's feather fall' had me laughing louder then any comic has managed in a good long time.

It's official, I'm a massive nerd

Gilphon
2011-09-19, 06:53 PM
Well, would you look at that. Another conveniently placed deus ex machina to balance the odds in favour of the bad guys.
How new and exciting.

It's a Diabolous Ex Machina if it helps the bad guys. Deus Ex Machina are always good or neutral aligned.

Mantine
2011-09-19, 06:59 PM
Deus Ex Machina are always good or neutral aligned.
Nah, they aren't.

Orzel
2011-09-19, 07:01 PM
About researching, I typically go by the idea that divine caster has to believe that the spell exists on their spell list before they can ask for it. So non-core spells would exist in stories of another caster of the same class and similiar diety that the original caster would have to research to know if true.

So Thor could have a lot of spells that could get confused with Mass Death Ward (a spell I wouldn't have believed was 8th level. Waste) that Durkon doesn't know about.

brionl
2011-09-19, 07:01 PM
So what does a Masked Debt Gourd do? Inquiring minds want to know.
Maybe it will repossess Nale's wand.

The Giant
2011-09-19, 07:07 PM
Well, would you look at that. Another conveniently placed deus ex machina to balance the odds in favour of the bad guys.
How new and exciting.

Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

rewinn
2011-09-19, 07:07 PM
So what does a Masked Debt Gourd do? Inquiring minds want to know.
You use it to protect your assets from the lawyer's lawsuit for statutory damages!

Roland Itiative
2011-09-19, 07:08 PM
When Durkon mention the "Cleric's Feather Fall" I was like that: :smallconfused:

When he cast Heal, I chuckled. That was one of the best D&D jokes ever :smallbiggrin:

Valwyn
2011-09-19, 07:09 PM
She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

That makes sense. I wasn't complaining about it, though, I just thought it was strange. The author has every right to decide what's possible and what's not. And let me add that the author really has a talent for storytelling. :smalltongue:

Seerow
2011-09-19, 07:10 PM
Personally I loved Elan's take on Holy Word.

rewinn
2011-09-19, 07:14 PM
So what does a Masked Debt Gourd do? Inquiring minds want to know..OK, here's a Masked Debt Gourd, used to mask (conceal) your gold against debt collectors ... http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6164643884_56466e7049.jpg

faustin
2011-09-19, 07:17 PM
Question: where was Nale hidding "his new wand" the whole time? it´s a little bigger than, let´s say, Ian´s healing potion :smallamused:

The Giant
2011-09-19, 07:18 PM
Question: where was Nale hidding "his new wand" the whole time? it´s a little bigger than, let´s say, Ian´s healing potion :smallamused:

The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.

CloakedDancer
2011-09-19, 07:19 PM
Can't wait to see what happens next here. This could get very interesting.


The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.

I thought it was the same kind of place that Elan was hiding Haley. But his rapier makes sense too.

Luzahn
2011-09-19, 07:22 PM
...If only Durkon had gotten a Massive Death Worg. :smallfrown:

Darkroot
2011-09-19, 07:25 PM
Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

A recurring villain getting new tricks is par the course is any work. I think he meant that Durkon's counterspell, which could have done a lot against Nale/Sabine (depending on whether they keep using Death Wardable spells) failed because Thor and his angels couldn't work out what Durkon said. Which I admit, is fairly out of left field - DO clerics have a failure chance on spells, or was this purely rule of drama/funny? I don't play D&D...

Seerow
2011-09-19, 07:30 PM
A recurring villain getting new tricks is par the course is any work. I think he meant that Durkon's counterspell, which could have done a lot against Nale/Sabine (depending on whether they keep using Death Wardable spells) failed because Thor and his angels couldn't work out what Durkon said. Which I admit, is fairly out of left field - DO clerics have a failure chance on spells, or was this purely rule of drama/funny? I don't play D&D...

They generally do not, but since this was a spell that Durkon had researched, and in this world is fairly obscure, there could have been a ruling saying it has a failure chance.

It's not like we haven't seen Thor giving the wrong spells due to misunderstandings before.

Darkroot
2011-09-19, 07:33 PM
Erm, forgot my thoughts on the strip.

Cleric's Feather Fall is awesome, and I must find an excuse to use it.
And I'm really hoping to see a Masked Debt Gourd show up in the near future. Although that this is the first thing that springs to Thor's mind makes me wonder about his worshippers...

H Birchgrove
2011-09-19, 07:34 PM
:elan: "I know right!"

:smallbiggrin: Great strip.

rewinn
2011-09-19, 07:43 PM
They generally do not, but since this was a spell that Durkon had researched, and in this world is fairly obscure, there could have been a ruling saying it has a failure chance.

It's not like we haven't seen Thor giving the wrong spells due to misunderstandings before.

As far back as 007 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), which is almost as far back as you can go.

For Elysium's sake, folks - these are JOKES!

Gift Jeraff
2011-09-19, 07:43 PM
A recurring villain getting new tricks is par the course is any work. I think he meant that Durkon's counterspell, which could have done a lot against Nale/Sabine (depending on whether they keep using Death Wardable spells) failed because Thor and his angels couldn't work out what Durkon said. Which I admit, is fairly out of left field - DO clerics have a failure chance on spells, or was this purely rule of drama/funny? I don't play D&D...It's not really left field. Durkon failing to cast the spell was first seen in #750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).

Porthos
2011-09-19, 07:47 PM
It's not really left field. Durkon failing to cast the spell was first seen in #750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).

One might even consider this a clever/funny way of showing Spell Research Failure. :smallsmile:

And the idea that something not in Core/SRD has to be researched properly, even if it is a Cleric spell, isn't that uncommon of an idea.

One Skunk Todd
2011-09-19, 07:49 PM
Doesn't Durkon have a spell to reduce level draining effects? Or is he now too low a level to use it?

Also is it just me or is the Giant being unusually communicative of late?

Mantine
2011-09-19, 07:50 PM
Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

I wasn't arguing about the item itself. While it IS fairly acceptable (from a reader's point of view) for him to possess such a wand at that present nick of time, it rings a bit too much of "deus ex coming to the rescue!" if you pair it with Zz'ditri's similar hijink of just a few strips before. Every time they lose the upper hand "something happens", and the odds are rebalanced, in spite of actual, shown combat prowess.
Which also kind of adds insult to injury seeing that Durkon's "surprise" got an arbitrary failure instead.

Anyways, just my 2 cents, not really important.

The Pilgrim
2011-09-19, 07:50 PM
Durkon, you better have some restoration spells/scrolls at hand, or you are boned...

... unless your new friend Malak happens to be at hand.

The Giant
2011-09-19, 07:54 PM
A recurring villain getting new tricks is par the course is any work. I think he meant that Durkon's counterspell, which could have done a lot against Nale/Sabine (depending on whether they keep using Death Wardable spells) failed because Thor and his angels couldn't work out what Durkon said. Which I admit, is fairly out of left field - DO clerics have a failure chance on spells, or was this purely rule of drama/funny? I don't play D&D...

Well, if that's the case, it's already been shown to be a work-in-progress that isn't ready yet. The exact cause of why it isn't ready is irrelevant to the plot. I could have just as easily had Durkon say, "Gosh, if only I had finished researchin' me spell in time!" if my only goal was to keep him from using it. I did it this way because it gave me a punchline.

Really, this idea some people have that I'm obligated to give my characters a fair fight at all times is bizarre, and I can only assume that it comes from people transposing their experiences in D&D to the strip, and treating me like I'm some kind of unfair DM. It's a piece of fiction, not a game. "Fairness" is not required or to be expected at any point. "Fairness" is dull.

The Giant
2011-09-19, 07:58 PM
Every time they lose the upper hand "something happens", and the odds are rebalanced, in spite of actual, shown combat prowess.

This is generally how battles work in drama. Only in roleplaying games are they one-sided foregone conclusions which inevitably grind toward their predestined ending of 20% resource expenditure.

CloakedDancer
2011-09-19, 08:02 PM
Well, if that's the case, it's already been shown to be a work-in-progress that isn't ready yet. The exact cause of why it isn't ready is irrelevant to the plot. I could have just as easily had Durkon say, "Gosh, if only I had finished researchin' me spell in time!" if my only goal was to keep him from using it. I did it this way because it gave me a punchline.

Really, this idea some people have that I'm obligated to give my characters a fair fight at all times is bizarre, and I can only assume that it comes from people transposing their experiences in D&D to the strip, and treating me like I'm some kind of unfair DM. It's a piece of fiction, not a game. "Fairness" is not required or to be expected at any point. "Fairness" is dull.


If they're transposing they must have had much nicer DMs than I'm used to. "Unfair" was an essentially laughable concept in the last campaign I suffered through... Personally I think an encounter like this would have been a nice break really.

Mantine
2011-09-19, 08:10 PM
This is generally how battles work in drama. Only in roleplaying games are they one-sided foregone conclusions which inevitably grind toward their predestined ending of 20% resource expenditure.

Unpredictability and unfairness add spice to the drama, but in the end the result should be decided by the character's inner, own strenght.

Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters. :smallbiggrin:

In my book, unfairness and unfunny tend to be quite close to each others, to be picked carefully.

CelestialMagpie
2011-09-19, 08:15 PM
This is generally how battles work in drama. Only in roleplaying games are they one-sided foregone conclusions which inevitably grind toward their predestined ending of 20% resource expenditure.


Well said :smallsmile:


I enjoyed this strip, but I'm sad that Durkon's second attempt to be of use to the party didn't work because of a miscommunication. His first attempt - healing Elan - went very well.

Come on Durkon - you will be the lynchpin of the OOTS victory!! :smallbiggrin:

Also:


Unpredictability and unfairness add spice to the drama, but in the end the result should be decided by the character's inner, own strenght.

Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters. :smallbiggrin:

In my book, unfairness and unfunny tend to be quite close to each others, to be picked carefully.


I don't understand who this is not what just happened. Nale, being down a divine spellcaster, has in his possession a means of alleviating that shortcoming. He is being smart and using his own means - he is in essence thinking things through.
Also - it seems that this is a minor item, not an epic one - it's not a celestial needle and thread for detangling the Snarl. Should the enemy not have useful items which create problems for a party?

CoffeeIncluded
2011-09-19, 08:18 PM
Thor really needs to invest in some better service.

Porthos
2011-09-19, 08:19 PM
Unpredictability and unfairness add spice to the drama, but in the end the result should be decided by the character's inner, own strenght.

Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters. :smallbiggrin:

Your complaint might have more merit if we were near the end of the story.

But, as far I know, we aren't. :smallsmile:

ETA:

I also might, if I were you, choose a better literary example than, Lord of the "I can't figure out a way to end my story that rings* true to what I have already established, so I'll have a character slip and fall into lava while dancing about and end the main plot line that way" Rings. :smalltongue:

* No pun intended. :smallwink:

The_Ferg
2011-09-19, 08:27 PM
Huh, I would think that restoring Haley would take priority, maybe he doesn't have anything memorized for that. :smalleek:

Break Enchantment has a 1 minute casting time. Not the thing to cast under fire.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-19, 08:29 PM
NOOO I WANTED HALEY BACK!
Great comic, Giant, so happy to see Durkon back in on the action! Although the mispronunciation punchline seemed a little contrived . . .

Whiffet
2011-09-19, 08:32 PM
I also might, if I were you, choose a better literary example than, Lord of the "I can't figure out a way to end my story that rings* true to what I have already established, so I'll have a character slip and fall into lava while dancing about and end the main plot line that way" Rings. :smalltongue:

* No pun intended. :smallwink:

That's what I wanted to say, but you beat me to it. :smalltongue:

Why is it that so many people who read OOTS get upset every time something they didn't expect happens? :smallconfused:

Wanda V'Orcus
2011-09-19, 08:35 PM
She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

So that's why the spell fizzled! :smallfrown:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

LudiDrizzt
2011-09-19, 08:36 PM
This is generally how battles work in drama. Only in roleplaying games are they one-sided foregone conclusions which inevitably grind toward their predestined ending of 20% resource expenditure.

That sounds like such a Vaarsuvius line.

Porthos
2011-09-19, 08:40 PM
That's what I wanted to say, but you beat me to it. :smalltongue:

And the thing is, I like LotR. :smallsmile: But, man, I can only imagine what would happen if it came out today. Especially in serial format. :smallwink:

Blisstake
2011-09-19, 08:40 PM
Break Enchantment has a 1 minute casting time. Not the thing to cast under fire.

That didn't stop Zz'dtri in 800.

J's
2011-09-19, 08:40 PM
Well said :smallsmile:


Also:




I don't understand who this is not what just happened. Nale, being down a divine spellcaster, has in his possession a means of alleviating that shortcoming. He is being smart and using his own means - he is in essence thinking things through.


Soo, a change from his normal mode of operation? Which, I believe, is to overdo things till they are guaranteed to fail. Though I guess that possibility isn't off the table at this point.

J's
2011-09-19, 08:44 PM
That didn't stop Zz'dtri in 800.

Yes, but in the thread for that strip the giant said he didn't look up the cast time. He knows what it is now. Not to mention it is better tactics to prevent a death instead of bringing in an ally that is off balance from a spell and may not be armed. She did drop the bag of holding after all.

KoboldRevenge
2011-09-19, 08:44 PM
I... Didn't get the punch line.

Blaznak
2011-09-19, 08:45 PM
Clerical feather fall. Heh.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-19, 08:46 PM
I... Didn't get the punch line.

He researched a spell from an entirely different pantheon and Thor has no clue what he means, since he doesn't know the spells those weird gods on the other continent use. Or Durkon's accent is not understandable by the gods of the Norhtern Lands, which seems to be like 1/3-ish dwarves. :smalltongue: /nosenseofhumor

Blisstake
2011-09-19, 08:47 PM
Yes, but in the thread for that strip the giant said he didn't look up the cast time. He knows what it is now. Not to mention it is better tactics to prevent a death instead of bringing in an ally that is off balance from a spell and may not be armed. She did drop the bag of holding after all.

Eh, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if he just decides Break Enchantment has a 1 round casting time from now on. Wouldn't really make much of a difference. I wasn't saying un-stoning would be the best option, only that you shouldn't be surprised if he does manage it in a single round.

Knellroy
2011-09-19, 09:02 PM
It's the same wand as in number 11! (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)
Well, minus the horns...

dsavereide
2011-09-19, 09:07 PM
Funny what people choose to complain about. We didn't even know which spell Durkon was reasearching, so his not being able to cast it is fine. We know you don't have to be a magic user to use magic items. And the last think you expect Nale to say, is let's give this one up. So he has to have something to fall back on. And this is not going to turn the tides of the fight... only make fighging an option for him.

EmperorSarda
2011-09-19, 09:12 PM
I wasn't arguing about the item itself. While it IS fairly acceptable (from a reader's point of view) for him to possess such a wand at that present nick of time, it rings a bit too much of "deus ex coming to the rescue!" if you pair it with Zz'ditri's similar hijink of just a few strips before. Every time they lose the upper hand "something happens", and the odds are rebalanced, in spite of actual, shown combat prowess.
Which also kind of adds insult to injury seeing that Durkon's "surprise" got an arbitrary failure instead.


Odds are rebalanced? The only thing that happened was the Durkon lost access to his 7th level spells such as Holy Word (Which if successful would have sent Sabine back to her plane for 24 hours). There is still a lot that Durkon can do. Such as casting a level 4 Restoration spell on Elan and himself to rid themselves of the negative levels.

Gilphon
2011-09-19, 09:14 PM
Really. I mean, if you're complaining about something we didn't even know was an option one panel ago failing to turn the tide, well…

Let's just say it would've been a far greater Deus Ex Machina if Durkon's spell had worked. What Durkon pulling the perfect spell for the situation largely out of nowhere and all.

Qwertystop
2011-09-19, 09:18 PM
It's the same wand as in number 11! (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)
Well, minus the horns...

Actually, that's a staff. Yes, there's a difference besides length.

Charmy
2011-09-19, 09:38 PM
I really enjoyed this strip! Hats off to Nale with picking up that wand. Level draining is such a powerful and frequently used mechanic in OoTS, so Durkon made an excellent decision in researching this ward spell. I look forward to seeing its successful application soon!

And I must say its super cool to see Rich himself posting in this thread so many times. It seems to me, as a long-time forum lurker, to be quite a rare occurrence, so just wanted to say "Thanks!" Even if this will likely remain a rare treat, I savor it all the same n.n

Sethala
2011-09-19, 09:39 PM
...We know you don't have to be a magic user to use magic items...

Just nitpicking, but Nale is a magic user. He's a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer that specializes in enchantment spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

King Neptune IV
2011-09-19, 09:46 PM
Did anyone else read durkon's "mass death ward" as "mass death word" I got excited because I thought I was going to see durkon's epic spell kill everyone, and then it fizzled out anyway and when I read the comic again I saw it was ward not word

Geech
2011-09-19, 09:54 PM
Really. I mean, if you're complaining about something we didn't even know was an option one panel ago failing to turn the tide, well…

Let's just say it would've been a far greater Deus Ex Machina if Durkon's spell had worked. What Durkon pulling the perfect spell for the situation largely out of nowhere and all.

Pulling the spell out of nowhere? We had a research montage, and other characters in recent comics have explicitly mentioned that Durkon was researching a spell. On top of that, Durkon mentioned the prospect of researching Mass Death Ward in update 672. There was plenty of reason to believe this spell was coming.

If anything, this fight could have been a great opportunity for Durkon to display a major new piece of the OOTS arsenal against Xykon.

Tobimaro
2011-09-19, 10:05 PM
Thor really needs to invest in some better service.

I was thinking of computers which can better translate between dwarven and celestial. Or maybe hearing aids. :smallsmile:

Other than that, Bravo, Giant! I greatly appreciate the "cleric's Feather Fall (aka Heal). :smallbiggrin:

dmorenus
2011-09-19, 10:10 PM
"Tha's Elan up thar, wit Sabine?!? Holy Smite!"

I think we just learned a new euphemism... :smallbiggrin:

aart lover
2011-09-19, 10:23 PM
Yup, Thor is still a jerk xD

Hamiltonz
2011-09-19, 10:33 PM
Great comic! Nice play on Durkon's Incoprehensible Accent. I'm just wondering how he's going to use his +1 Attack and +3 Defense while battling Nale (Human)

For those that don't play the card game I am referencing one of Durkon's Verbal Schticks.


There is also a joke in there (intentional or not) about how a Cleric is only good for one thing, healing. :biggrin:

ORione
2011-09-19, 10:43 PM
OK, here's a Masked Debt Gourd, used to mask (conceal) your gold against debt collectors ... http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6164643884_56466e7049.jpg

That is awesome.

DougTheHead
2011-09-19, 10:51 PM
I also might, if I were you, choose a better literary example than, Lord of the "I can't figure out a way to end my story that rings* true to what I have already established, so I'll have a character slip and fall into lava while dancing about and end the main plot line that way" Rings. :smalltongue:

* No pun intended. :smallwink:

Yes, that whole bit about temptation leading to destruction certainly hadn't shown up at any place in the series until Gollum slipped and fell. It certainly wasn't a thematic backbone of the entire trilogy.

MoonCat
2011-09-19, 10:56 PM
Okay, so are you talking about a hypothetical? Because, speaking as someone who just started The Two Towers, I'd REALLY rather not find out what happens, since I've been really good at not finding out so far.

Pronounceable
2011-09-19, 10:57 PM
I might play DnD someday just to cast cleric's featherfall.

...

That sounds like such a Vaarsuvius line.
Which shouldn't really be a big surprise.

AgentofOdd
2011-09-19, 11:01 PM
My knowledge of D&D is limited, but I was under the impression a cleric asks for spells when they pray, and that's when they know whether or not they'll get the requested spells. Am I mistaken, or is this another case of OotS isn't (quite) D&D?

DougTheHead
2011-09-19, 11:07 PM
Okay, so are you talking about a hypothetical? Because, speaking as someone who just started The Two Towers, I'd REALLY rather not find out what happens, since I've been really good at not finding out so far.

Yes. That was just a possible example, with a certain metaphoric significance for those who have read all the way through. Now leave this board immediately before you find out anything that matters.

Toofey
2011-09-19, 11:26 PM
Am I the only one who thought we already basically knew what durkon was studying.

I like the Cleric's feather fall bit, what is the deal with level drain in 3rd, the party is losing a ton of levels and that would be a bit of a pain in 2nd ed.

ORione
2011-09-19, 11:36 PM
Am I the only one who thought we already basically knew what durkon was studying.


No. He and Roy were talking about it at the end of DStP.

Porthos
2011-09-19, 11:55 PM
Yes, that whole bit about temptation leading to destruction certainly hadn't shown up at any place in the series until Gollum slipped and fell. It certainly wasn't a thematic backbone of the entire trilogy.

Why I'm spoilering a 60+ year old story, I have no idea, but here goes and simplfying hugely to avoid a lot of mess...

I am referring to the fact that when Frodo got to Mt. Doom, Tolkein found that he simply could not have Frodo dump the ring into the lava because he made such a big deal about temptation.

Thus when writing his outline he came up with the idea of Hopping Happy Gollum plunging to his death when he failed his balance check.

It has been a bit of a source of commentary ever since it came out, you know. :smallwink:

Now mind, I still like the story. A lot, actually. But, really now. :smallsmile:

SamBurke
2011-09-19, 11:56 PM
Am I the only one who thought we already basically knew what durkon was studying.

I like the Cleric's feather fall bit, what is the deal with level drain in 3rd, the party is losing a ton of levels and that would be a bit of a pain in 2nd ed.

It's a pain in 3.5, too. :smalltongue:

Mordokai
2011-09-20, 12:21 AM
A joke from some 800 comics ago? Seriously?

I is dissapoint.

DougTheHead
2011-09-20, 12:23 AM
Why I'm spoilering a 60+ year old story, I have no idea, but here goes and simplfying hugely to avoid a lot of mess...

I am referring to the fact that when Frodo got to Mt. Doom, Tolkein found that he simply could not have Frodo dump the ring into the lava because he made such a big deal about temptation.

Thus when writing his outline he came up with the idea of Hopping Happy Gollum plunging to his death when he failed his balance check.

It has been a bit of a source of commentary ever since it came out, you know. :smallwink:

Now mind, I still like the story. A lot, actually. But, really now. :smallsmile:

Ah, kids today. I read LOTR before I knew the internet consisted of anything but AOL.

Fair enough, I suppose. I thought it still worked as a natural outgrowth of what had gone before- Gollum's primary skill set seems to be in climbing sheer walls, and his slip shows how his desire for the ring robs him of something that had been second nature to him all this time.

At the same time, Frodo is not as corrupted as Gollum was- rather than killing anyone who tries to take the ring, he lets Gollum live despite it being against his own best interests. This leads to him surviving the episode, ironically because Gollum tries to turn on him in the end. The Mount Doom chapter is a lot more about the self-destructive nature of corruption and the possibility of redemption than any arbitrary plot-wrapping-up would be.

Sith_Happens
2011-09-20, 12:43 AM
Yes, but in the thread for that strip the giant said he didn't look up the cast time. He knows what it is now.

And if you really want an in-universe explanation as well, Zz'dtri has been known to use house-ruled spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

the_tick_rules
2011-09-20, 12:45 AM
again with the wrong spells lol. Thor needs better assistants.

NENAD
2011-09-20, 01:01 AM
What with all the negative levels being passed around, I'm starting to think the Giant wants to tell a lower level story. We currently have the Order pegged at around 11-12th, right?

Alagaesian
2011-09-20, 01:05 AM
Waltz on over to the Geekery thread. They're estimated to be somewhere in the mid-teens.

Killer Angel
2011-09-20, 01:53 AM
again with the wrong spells lol.

:smallconfused:
Care to elaborate, please?


Thor needs better assistants.

If you're talking 'bout the angels, I agree. But we all know that often Thor don't pay too much attention to things around Him... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

Anarion
2011-09-20, 02:04 AM
Does anyone else find it odd that Durkon actually pronounced all 3 words of the spell correctly (or at least they're transcribed for us without an accent)? I get the fact that he has a heavy Scottish/Dwarvish accent, but as Belkar said long ago
:belkar: "He can pronounce 'stratosphere', but not 'the'?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)

As for the negative levels, I think it's mostly that they happen to be one of the best ways to tackle a high level caster since you simultaneously deal damage and remove their strongest spells. Plus, there are relatively few ways to block negative energy, since turning into an undead doesn't really count and many others such as spell turning are short duration or of limited effect.

Phishfood
2011-09-20, 02:05 AM
HAH! I read this one before making coffee, so the keyboard is safe.

Cleric Feather Fall, genius!

Porthos
2011-09-20, 02:07 AM
Ah, kids today. I read LOTR before I knew the internet consisted of anything but AOL.

I'm not sure who you are calling a "kid", but it ain't the person who can trace his online usage to GEnie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEnie) and FidoNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FidoNet). :smalltongue:

<SPOILER DELETED>

Your point is taken as well, but, remember, I was mostly kidding with my comments. :smallwink: Perhaps alluding to the comments that have been made surrounding the <SPOILERS DELETED> might be an even better way of putting it. :smallsmile:

factotum
2011-09-20, 02:08 AM
What with all the negative levels being passed around, I'm starting to think the Giant wants to tell a lower level story. We currently have the Order pegged at around 11-12th, right?

Given that Restoration is a spell easily within reach of even a level-drained Durkon, anything that happens here is likely to be temporary--unless Durkon himself is killed here, which is within the bounds of possibility (he's predicted to arrive back at his homeland posthumously, after all).

Darthteej
2011-09-20, 02:13 AM
Geez, Giant got feisty yesterday, I can't recall the last time he made that many posts in a response thread. Guess all those complaints about the Linear Guild v. OotS matches finally got to him.

Great comic!

Etcetera
2011-09-20, 02:20 AM
Holy Words?
baaaddddd pun.
Good comic, though.

Burner28
2011-09-20, 02:22 AM
Alright!:smallsmile:

Onyavar
2011-09-20, 02:29 AM
Geez, Giant got feisty yesterday, I can't recall the last time he made that many posts in a response thread. Guess all those complaints about the Linear Guild v. OotS matches finally got to him.

Great comic!

Which is, in my opinion, not the proper way to treat a huge fanbase.

Mr Burlew, lean back and let the fans sort everything out themselves. If you jump in and explain every detail of how you composed the story and that you didn't look up this and that, you're really destroying the belief of several guys (like me), that you're the allknowing D&D+OotS god. If you don't lean back, the trolls will complain and nitpick until you revealed all your godly knowledge. :smallwink:

And yes, the update is great. As always.

danielmayer
2011-09-20, 02:34 AM
yeeeeaaaah! Thor's back again!!!! I missed him so much, hope to see more of him. Durkon should discuss this matter via Commune :)
sounds really like colon tumors.

I vote for "bagel" as holy word! :)

Icedaemon
2011-09-20, 02:43 AM
My bet is still the same: Durkon goes to get Malack's help, who does not turn out to have some convoluted reason to not wipe the floor with the linear guild.

The Succubus
2011-09-20, 03:42 AM
And the thing is, I like LotR. :smallsmile: But, man, I can only imagine what would happen if it came out today. Especially in serial format. :smallwink:

Well, people would be whining about the fact that the Eagles couldn't fly the ringbearers straight to Mount Doom, there would be a long in-depth discussion about the gender of Celeborn and an even longer one about Boromir's alignment and Tolkien would cry himself to sleep every night after reading the Saurman/Wormtongue crack pairing.

Am I close?

Feytalist
2011-09-20, 04:18 AM
Just checking in to say:

"cleric's feather fall", heh.

faustin
2011-09-20, 04:39 AM
again with the wrong spells lol. Thor needs better assistants.

Yeah, of course, is the assistants´fault.

Icedaemon
2011-09-20, 04:40 AM
I am somewhat baffled at some of the commentary in this thread. A potent do-gooder does not manage to immediately decisively turn the tide and people are whining about deus ex machina. Honestly, were I the whiny sort, I would at most complain about the Giant being allowed to double post, which seems about as petty as any 'the story did not go how I thought! This is wrong!'.


I am referring to the fact that when Frodo got to Mt. Doom, Tolkein found that he simply could not have Frodo dump the ring into the lava because he made such a big deal about temptation.

Thus when writing his outline he came up with the idea of Hopping Happy Gollum plunging to his death when he failed his balance check.

It has been a bit of a source of commentary ever since it came out, you know. :smallwink:

Now mind, I still like the story. A lot, actually. But, really now. :smallsmile:

That's a very good point you have there.


It's a pain in 3.5, too. :smalltongue:

If by pain you mean 'mild nuisance unless your characters have atrocious saves', sure.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 04:41 AM
One of the absolute funniest strips in a long time. Also, I think just about every time Thor shows up he is hilarious. Great strip.


Unpredictability and unfairness add spice to the drama, but in the end the result should be decided by the character's inner, own strenght.

Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters. :smallbiggrin:

In my book, unfairness and unfunny tend to be quite close to each others, to be picked carefully.

Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic.

There are countless other examples. These things happen all the time in literature. What you are talking about happening at Mount Doom would of course be ridiculous, because it would be anticlimactic for the end of the trilogy. This isn't the end of the OOTS, however, just mid-battle, and is maintaining the tension and the suspense. The characters will show their inner strength plenty by adapting to these challenges. They haven't failed to have inner strength just because they can't predict everything that will happen. They are finite beings, after all, not gods. That makes them a lot more "human" and interesting then if they just kick straight ass all the time, and to be honest I like them more because of it.

Ingus
2011-09-20, 05:11 AM
Uhm... I'm guessing that when someone disappoints Thor, goes to hell.
If someone spits in his beer, goes to public relations office.

By the way, relax: the Linear Guild is still in the lower hand. Belkar and the now giant-strenghted cat are still around to help.

Zorgophlats
2011-09-20, 05:54 AM
I wonder what would happen if Belkar ends up being the one who "saves the day". Given that he is just pretending to be good, would a truly good act end up shifting his alignment? I'm starting to see Belkar act more and more neutral as of late. He seems to be getting more selfless as he does his act, but then later tries to justify it as selfish. I can't prove what I'm saying here, it's just a feeling I'm starting to get.

And let's not get into an argument over it. I know I could be wrong. It's just a thought.

Wanderer
2011-09-20, 06:06 AM
Restoration, Durkon. All clerics need to have Restoration prepared. It will solve your level-drain problem quite nicely.

hewhosaysfish
2011-09-20, 07:19 AM
Eh, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if he just decides Break Enchantment has a 1 round casting time from now on. Wouldn't really make much of a difference. I wasn't saying un-stoning would be the best option, only that you shouldn't be surprised if he does manage it in a single round.

Eh, I figure it's kinda like a forgotten bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html): now that we (and be we, I mean the Giant) know the actual casting time that will be the casting time from now on.

Burner28
2011-09-20, 07:32 AM
I wonder what would happen if Belkar ends up being the one who "saves the day". Given that he is just pretending to be good, would a truly good act end up shifting his alignment?
.

It wouldn't, considering all that he has done.

ref
2011-09-20, 07:51 AM
Now that the Giant knows MDW is an actual spell, can we as-retcon-sume that it fizzled because it was too high of a level?

Frozen_Northman
2011-09-20, 07:54 AM
Loved the "Clerical Feather Fall" spell. It reminds me of the "Clerical Sleep" spell that was regularly invoked in my own game. It required a specific material component - namely a mace to the back of the head.

Adeptus
2011-09-20, 07:57 AM
Poor Durkon, a loyal customer of a lousy service provider.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 08:02 AM
Now that the Giant knows MDW is an actual spell, can we as-retcon-sume that it fizzled because it was too high of a level?

Nah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11).

Don't think it matters.

Adeptus
2011-09-20, 08:06 AM
The Giant's take on how the huge can of worms that is D&D is spot on IMO. To quote a friend of mine with 20+ years of GM experience "Any GM worth his salt tinkers with the rules".

Treating everything outside the SRD as optional material to be used, subverted or adjusted it exactly how I would do it as well, rather than taking it as holy writ.

Caractacus
2011-09-20, 08:31 AM
Poor Durkon.

Thor must be using the same technology as these guys with the same problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ

:smallcool:

Dandria
2011-09-20, 08:32 AM
Ah, tha old Cleric's Feather Fall! Sir, you're a genius!

Mantine
2011-09-20, 08:44 AM
One of the absolute funniest strips in a long time. Also, I think just about every time Thor shows up he is hilarious. Great strip.



Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic.

There are countless other examples. These things happen all the time in literature. What you are talking about happening at Mount Doom would of course be ridiculous, because it would be anticlimactic for the end of the trilogy. This isn't the end of the OOTS, however, just mid-battle, and is maintaining the tension and the suspense. The characters will show their inner strength plenty by adapting to these challenges. They haven't failed to have inner strength just because they can't predict everything that will happen. They are finite beings, after all, not gods. That makes them a lot more "human" and interesting then if they just kick straight ass all the time, and to be honest I like them more because of it.

Agreed.
Let's just hope that Roy won't lose his fight because Thog "suddenly finds a long-lost +5 sword buried under the sand".

I'm responding to you because you seem most reasonable, while other posters kind of missed the point or exaggerated my words in a way i didn't mean them.

tcrudisi
2011-09-20, 08:47 AM
I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?

Also, the cleric feather fall bit had me literally laughing out loud. It was one of the best OotS jokes in a long time. I was literally wondering, "What the heck is he going to cast?" Then a heal? Oh man, so brilliant and so Durkon.

Blisstake
2011-09-20, 08:49 AM
Agreed.
Let's just hope that Roy won't lose his fight because Thog "suddenly finds a long-lost +5 sword buried under the sand".
I'm responding to you because you seem most reasonable, while other posters kind of missed the point or exaggerated my words in a way i didn't mean them.

When you say things like that, do you really wonder why responses to you are "exaggerated?"

Lunever
2011-09-20, 09:00 AM
Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

The Succubus
2011-09-20, 09:04 AM
I've been giving a little thought to this and the most straightforward answer seems to be the likely one - the Linear Guild are not stupid.

A recurring boss in a computer game will have essentially the same skills and attacks as it did the first few times you fought it, maybe with a very slight variation. This is because a computer game boss is usually designed to be nothing more than a speed bump on the way to a final goal. It makes for a dull predictable challenge that's not particularly exciting.

Dull, predictable and not exciting do not make for good webcomic reading *coughdominicdeegancough*. An unexpected attack from the Linear Guild forces the Order to think and react in unexpected ways (cat + belt, unleashing Amun Zora, the portable Koboldic arrow dispenser) and keeps things lively and interesting.

If the above is too hard to follow, let me put it another way. The Linear Guild reads TV Tropes (probably what drove them to evil in the first place). They make a careful note of all the things a recurring BBEG is supposed to, then hurled it out of the window.

OracleofWuffing
2011-09-20, 09:13 AM
I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?
Yeah, Heal doesn't remove negative levels.


Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?
A ditch or a trench would have provided cover to further Enervations and long-range attacks. A bagel would have solved all their problems from the get go, or is just a comedy cherry-on-top of the list. :smallbiggrin:

vvv Uh, that, too, I guess! :smallredface:

ericgrau
2011-09-20, 09:19 AM
Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?
"Holy" sounds like "holey", full of a hole or holes.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 09:36 AM
When you say things like that, do you really wonder why responses to you are "exaggerated?"
Not really, since that's not the same or an excuse to exaggerating things in ways that misses or falsifies the point.

rewinn
2011-09-20, 09:53 AM
...Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic. ...

Why would it be unusual for magic-users with centuries to ponder their warfighting problems to defensively mine their boundary river or to develop a way to punch through a wall that has been a known issue also for centuries?

Elrond and Saruman were really smart (...not necessarily wise, but that's another issue ...) and had thousands of years of battles from which to identify combat issues needing to be worked on. LotR is told from the POV of low-technology peasants, so of course the use of tripwires and bombs would seem amazing; sort of like how children during WW1 might have reacted badly to aeroplanes invading their sceptered isle.

pendell
2011-09-20, 09:59 AM
The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.

:thinks about it:

Sir, I would like to place an order for a truck pallet of brain bleach. Does Oookadook sell it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Barstro
2011-09-20, 10:01 AM
If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

Or read the forums for speculations and learn the Sliders version, where EVERY possible action does happen.

Not everything needs to happen on-screen, not everything needs to be foreshadowed. If we knew exactly what was going to happen in the future all the time, DnD wouldn't come with dice.


Really, this idea some people have that I'm obligated to give my characters a fair fight at all times is bizarre, and I can only assume that it comes from people transposing their experiences in D&D to the strip.

Unfair fights are exactly what I always received when I played.

Great comic.

Vectner
2011-09-20, 10:04 AM
Great strip, glad to see Durkon back. If I were Durkon, I might start looking for a more attentive god.

Oh and Giant, you are on fire! I read through the comments and love your replies. :smallcool:

Tobrian
2011-09-20, 10:21 AM
Man, Thor's customer service is terrible.

Oh come on. Screw you, Thor.

If this was a D&d game, this is the point where I would be yelling, "gamemaster arbitrariness!"

Also, unless Nale cast Enervation literally in the same round that Durkon cast Heal on Elan and Elan babbled at Durkon, then Durkon needs to react faster. The idea of Death Ward is casting is before you are hit with a drain! Or if Durkan had depetrified Haley instead of casting Holy Smite, Haley could have shot down Sabine while Durkon put Mass Death Ward on everyone. Durkon just has no grasp of tactics, I guess. That's what Roy is for.


Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

"Donut" would have worked, too.
It wasn't a very good pun, but it was appropriate to Elan's INT and WIS. :smallwink:

writinwater
2011-09-20, 10:22 AM
Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher... estimating Nale/Elan at a very optimistic minimum 150 lbs, and not taking anyone's equipment into account. Otherwise... we are looking at a 24 or higher strength ? On a succubus rogue ?
Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Almost as much as V obviously being far too dumb to memorize even a single "Dispel Magic".. or conveniently failing his Will-save against "Plane Shift"

Tobrian
2011-09-20, 10:25 AM
Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?(snip)

Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Almost as much as V obviously being far too dumb to memorize even a single "Dispel Magic".. or conveniently failing his Will-save against "Plane Shift"

Narrativium at work. (Of which the Rule of Cool and Murphy's Law are sub-sections.)

Or, if we want to be rules-lawyerish about it: maybe Sabine wears a belt (or other item) of giant strength. As long as it's not a chastity-belt... :smallwink:


Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

There's a difference between
a) things happening arbitrarily with no logical reason other than "otherwise the plot wouldn't work" (also known as an Idiot Plot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot), or "any plot that would be resolved in five minutes if everyone in the story were not an idiot"), or
b) things happening that the protagonist has no explanation for at the time it happens but which has a logical reason to be there.

rbetieh
2011-09-20, 10:25 AM
Heh, durkon is defeated by bunions.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 10:32 AM
Why would it be unusual for magic-users with centuries to ponder their warfighting problems to defensively mine their boundary river or to develop a way to punch through a wall that has been a known issue also for centuries?

It isn't unusual, just as it wouldn't be unusual for Nale to be able to aquire a relatively inexpensive magical item. You are actually arguing my point.

If you are worried about my use of the term "inexplicably" that shouldn't be interpreted to mean "Tolkien pulled it out of his butt" but that "Tolkien doesn't explicate what the magic is or how it was acquired." To read it as the former would be to read my post in a negative way that isn't warranted by anything I said or responded to.


There's a difference between
a) things happening arbitrarily with no logical reason other than "otherwise the plot wouldn't work" (also known as an Idiot Plot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot), or "any plot that would be resolved in five minutes if everyone in the story were not an idiot"), or
b) things happening that the protagonist has no explanation for at the time it happens but which has a logical reason to be there.

My post doesn't really have anything to do with idiot plots. Are you clarifying my point or trying to refute something I said?

ORione
2011-09-20, 11:08 AM
Loved the "Clerical Feather Fall" spell. It reminds me of the "Clerical Sleep" spell that was regularly invoked in my own game. It required a specific material component - namely a mace to the back of the head.

Either that's a really flimsy mace, or it should be a focus.


Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher...

Vaarsuvius has a strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), yet can carry Durkon, armor and all, while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html). I think weight limits do not count while the carrier is flying. In OotS, anyway.

Gilphon
2011-09-20, 11:28 AM
I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.

otakufan
2011-09-20, 12:02 PM
The 'Cleric's Feather Fall' was absolutely perfect! :smallbiggrin:


Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?
This may have been mentioned already, but the word 'holy' (divine, sacred, etc.) sounds just like 'holey' (describing something that fundamentally is a hole, like a ditch or trench...or possesses one, in the case of a bagel).

Elan, in his lovable idiocy, mistook one set of meanings for the other. Rather than the spell Holy Word, he thinks Durkon was going to threaten Nale/Sabine with a word about holes.

Adeptus
2011-09-20, 12:03 PM
Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher... estimating Nale/Elan at a very optimistic minimum 150 lbs, and not taking anyone's equipment into account. Otherwise... we are looking at a 24 or higher strength ? On a succubus rogue ?
Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Some of the physics (and biology) in the OotS universe just work differently. Celia the (non tiny) sylph is also able to carry Roy without trouble. Goblins are medium sized and so forth.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 12:08 PM
I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.
As Sabine herself said "we can't fight a cleric without a spellcaster". Then, kapow, problem solved.
Apart of the "bad storytelling" (which was never brought up), I believe they do qualify as DE's, albeit low level ones.

Qwertystop
2011-09-20, 12:12 PM
As Sabine herself said "we can't fight a cleric without a spellcaster". Then, kapow, problem solved.
Apart of the "bad storytelling" (which was never brought up), I believe they do qualify as DE's, albeit low level ones.

How is it a DE for a high-level partial caster to have a wand?

Mantine
2011-09-20, 12:21 PM
How is it a DE for a high-level partial caster to have a wand?
It isn't. That's not the point.

Sith_Happens
2011-09-20, 12:23 PM
I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.

Of course Durkon's spell fizzling wasn't a Deus Ex Machina. "Deus Ex Machina" means "god from the machine," while Durkon's spell failed because his god needs a better answering machine.:elan:

Karoug
2011-09-20, 12:39 PM
Something is very fishy here.

Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:

1)the Directors: the imp already warned Sabine to back off from the fight, as he believes the Linear Guild cannot win this, and the Directors obviously need them alive for some reason, as is implied in their last conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html).

2)Malack. Ok, I have no real evidence to support the following, but something is definitely off about him. He is not seen in the arena, so he could be lurking anywhere, and being buddy-buddy with Durkon all this time could be a ploy to learn Durkon's spells and develop a strategy on how to sabotage them effectively. What doesn't fit is that he probably wouldn't work for the Linear Guild (except to advance some unrelated plan -possibly Tarquin's?).

If we follow the logic of TV-Tropes and some metagaming, Malack would be a Checkhov's gunman, waiting to strike and reveal the whole subplot of the arc. Tarquin is no fool and has his people everywhere around.

Ingus
2011-09-20, 01:00 PM
A partial unrelated question: is every issue commentary a collection of unstoppable mass-guessing and/or rulelawing? :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2011-09-20, 01:04 PM
Meh, that comic should have had a Chris Hemsworth reference at the end because he was the title character in Thor

Gilphon
2011-09-20, 01:05 PM
It isn't. That's not the point.

But… you just said it was one! I mean, literally, in you last post, you said:


I believe they do qualify as DE's

I mean, the only sense I can make out of that is that you're saying it's a Deus Ex Machina if it helps the villians overcome a problem (and, as a side note, that's bad terminology, as I mentioned before. Deus Ex Machina help the heros or move the plot along, while Diabolous Ex Machina helps the villains), regardless of whether or not the method they used to do so is a Deus Ex Machina.

Is that right?

Scrynor
2011-09-20, 01:07 PM
It doesn't matter what you think of the wand itself or how it targets what Durkon had been working on countering or how Durkon's spell fizzled. It still isn't a deus ex. That term explicitly refers to intractable problems solved by unknown devices. "We can't fight a caster" isn't intractable. They can just run. Having the wand doesn't "solve the problem" it just makes them think they might be able to win this fight.

Why does everyone love this term so much? There is no little deus ex. If you're calling it a little deus ex it isn't a deus ex. The term demands salvation from nowhere. Hence the God reference in the name. Nale and Sabine didn't even need saving.

Ave
2011-09-20, 01:22 PM
The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.

Just say: inventory

Qwertystop
2011-09-20, 01:24 PM
Something is very fishy here.

Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:

1)the Directors: the imp already warned Sabine to back off from the fight, as he believes the Linear Guild cannot win this, and the Directors obviously need them alive for some reason, as is implied in their last conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html).

2)Malack. Ok, I have no real evidence to support the following, but something is definitely off about him. He is not seen in the arena, so he could be lurking anywhere, and being buddy-buddy with Durkon all this time could be a ploy to learn Durkon's spells and develop a strategy on how to sabotage them effectively. What doesn't fit is that he probably wouldn't work for the Linear Guild (except to advance some unrelated plan -possibly Tarquin's?).

If we follow the logic of TV-Tropes and some metagaming, Malack would be a Checkhov's gunman, waiting to strike and reveal the whole subplot of the arc. Tarquin is no fool and has his people everywhere around.

Simple: In-comic, Mass Death Ward isn't a normal spell. Durkon just researched it. Therefore, the angels and Thor wouldn't know the spell off-hand, so pronunciation matters a lot more. You can tell what someone's saying a lot better if you have a good idea of the possibilities.

Holy_Knight
2011-09-20, 01:31 PM
Let's try to imagine how it'd have been if, say, Frodo and Sam reached the gates to Mordor only to find a conveniently-placed catapult aimed right into the volcano.
Or if Sauron pulled out an "Attract-O-Matic Wand" which would pull the One Ring from everywhere in the world right into his hands.
Or turn off the lava with a switch, for all that matters. :smallbiggrin:
These really aren't analogous to the strip. It's perfectly reasonable for Nale to have a magic wand, given his level and the fact that we know he was going to buy magic items the last we saw him. It even makes sense for him to have that wand--we can easily imagine him seeing Sabine drain people's levels and thinking of them both draining enemies until they are reduced to impotent weaklings. Your examples are dissimilar in that they do not flow naturally from what we know of the plots and characters.


Your complaint might have more merit if we were near the end of the story.
I also might, if I were you, choose a better literary example than, Lord of the "I can't figure out a way to end my story that rings* true to what I have already established, so I'll have a character slip and fall into lava while dancing about and end the main plot line that way" Rings. :smalltongue:


Spoilered for Mooncat, I guess. :smalltongue:

I don't actually find the scene with Gollum to be all that bad. I see it as illustrating how all-consuming his desire for the Ring was--once he gets it, the rush of finally filling his obsession/addiction again is so strong that he forgets everything else, including the most basic of safety concerns. He dies because his whole being became caught up in something external, his corruption entire and complete.

Now, The Hobbit on the other hand... man, that ending was bad.

"Oh, how will we ever repair this rift between Thorin and Bilbo and make peace with everybody?"

"Guys, guys, the Necromancer is attacking with an army of goblins! We have to put aside our differences and band together!"

"Yay, everything is better now!"

Sheesh...

Ave
2011-09-20, 01:34 PM
Yes, the Giant himself admitted, he didn't know for sure this spell would exist :)
By the way, Durkon couldn't even cast this level 8 spell after level drained.
So his fail was entirely in character.
Also the wand of enervation was nothing like a divine intervention.
And i don't see how a fight against a group of level appropriate enemies would be less intense. If it was easy, there wouldn't be any fun in the comic.

iBear
2011-09-20, 01:49 PM
"Cleric's Feather Fall" made me laugh out loud for the first time today.

Awesome.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 01:49 PM
But… you just said it was one! I mean, literally, in you last post, you said:



I mean, the only sense I can make out of that is that you're saying it's a Deus Ex Machina if it helps the villians overcome a problem (and, as a side note, that's bad terminology, as I mentioned before. Deus Ex Machina help the heros or move the plot along, while Diabolous Ex Machina helps the villains), regardless of whether or not the method they used to do so is a Deus Ex Machina.

Is that right?

Not much. Firstly, there's no "diabolous ex machina".
"Deus" doesn't equal good nor bad, in ancient and common literature it's simply seen as an "act of god" which forwards the plot or solves an entangled situation.
It has no side, they're all "Deus Ex Machina".
Maybe you were confusing it with the trope, dunno.. but if so, I'm hoping you didn't believe that the term "Deus Ex Machina" was simply born out of Tvtropes :smalltongue:

Secondly, what I said is that the situation is a Deus Ex, not Nale's ability of carrying wands.
Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
And that would be missing the point.

Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
What are the odds?
The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

Siosilvar
2011-09-20, 01:58 PM
Something is very fishy here.

Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:
[snip]

The much more likely explanation is that since Durkon researched it (since it isn't in core), the angels don't recognize it. Durkon mentions his research specifically in the previous comic (805) - and Roy asked for the spell a hundred and thirty-four strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).

Those two would have the capability to pull that, but I think they would've been shown doing something to interfere had that happened.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 02:04 PM
It doesn't matter what you think of the wand itself or how it targets what Durkon had been working on countering or how Durkon's spell fizzled. It still isn't a deus ex. That term explicitly refers to intractable problems solved by unknown devices. "We can't fight a caster" isn't intractable. They can just run. Having the wand doesn't "solve the problem" it just makes them think they might be able to win this fight.

Why does everyone love this term so much? There is no little deus ex. If you're calling it a little deus ex it isn't a deus ex. The term demands salvation from nowhere. Hence the God reference in the name. Nale and Sabine didn't even need saving.

"Utter salvation" isn't required, nor the situation needs to be hopeless for a DE to exist.
What the the term actually means is "God from the Machine", whose iteration means a situation where a problem is solved through external, arbitrary means (in this case, manipulating the odds).

Edit: besides, "We can't fight a cleric like this" IS an intractable problem.
The fact that they could run away doesn't change the impossibility of engaging into the fight, which the wand fixes.

Scrynor
2011-09-20, 02:04 PM
Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
And that would be missing the point.

Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
What are the odds?
The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

That isn't right. The Odyssey is a Deus Ex because his whole goal is to get to his wife and she's surrounded by his enemies. The problem is intractable. Then Athena completely solves it even though she hasn't been around helping out all this time. Intractable followed by out-of-nowhere resolution.

Nale and Sabine are fighting them because of confusion. They could just leave. They aren't in a corner, they aren't hurt. They could still win. Magic items are well established in the story. Nale had actively gone shopping for them. Not out of nowhere. The wand doesn't just make Durkon disappear. It just helps but doesn't resolve.

What you are objecting to is a string on convenient coincidences. It is not a deus ex. Deus ex is a very explicit term that does not fit this situation.

Scrynor
2011-09-20, 02:07 PM
"Utter salvation" isn't required, nor the situation needs to be hopeless for a DE to exist.

Welp, I'm tapping out if we're not agreeing on the definition. Yes, intractability is required and yes, resolution is required.

J's
2011-09-20, 02:08 PM
A partial unrelated question: is every issue commentary a collection of unstoppable mass-guessing and/or rulelawing? :smallbiggrin:

Yes

Great strip, glad to see Durkon back. If I were Durkon, I might start looking for a more attentive god.


Well, Malak is right there to convert him with his attentive Gods (Gods of death and destruction). So if he dies and gets rewarded for his conversion with 2nd life he could very well become a missionary sent to convert his homeland. It would fit the prophecy. That theory rightly belongs in the guessing thread, and is likely there in some form. But I refuse to go there because when I have tried in the past I developed a desire to gouge my eyes out.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 02:10 PM
It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

The "stretch" is the possibility of it happening. Something is called a stretch because it requires you to reach for an explanation that is not easily at hand, like a person stretching to reach the top shelf.

However, the explanation here is easily reachable by anyone: Nale has a history of carefully planning his attacks to match his enemies' strengths and weaknesses. He went to a store and bought a wand. He picked a wand that he could use and that complimented the existing powers of his girlfriend. Done. Easy. No stretching required. If the average reader can see something and completely understand how or why it happened, even if it happened off-panel and isn't discussed, then it's not a stretch. The fact that he chose well just means he's good at choosing.

Ultimately, I think everyone understands what you are saying. It's just that what you are saying is wrong. It's not even remotely in the same class as your Athena example, and you seem to be the only one who thinks it is. The wand is not external, because it has been explicitly explained that Nale went shopping for magic items. The wand is not arbitrary, because it is within his price range and it makes sense that he would pick something evil and effective. The wand is not solving the problem, because the damn fight is not over yet. So if it's not external, not arbitrary, and not solving the problem, it cannot be a Deus Ex Machina.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 02:16 PM
I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?
Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ? :smallconfused:

I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
"Oh no, we're ****ed"
"Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 02:24 PM
A lot of this Deus Ex Machina stuff (and I'm not necessarily picking on anyone in particular, as this seems to come up a LOT lately) boils down to "I expected the strip to happen this way and it happened another way I didn't expect so blah." A lot of people (including me, I'll add) expected Durkon to come in and save the day right of the bat with his new spell and unstoning Haley. This is a new development but isn't unwelcome to me, because now I want to see how Durkon and Elan get out of this. Just because what you were thinking was going to happen didn't happen doesn't make it a deus ex machina.


I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?

I understood that dialogue as being there to remind the readers that Nale is a spellcaster. I think the last time that was mentioned was way back in the very early strips so I get why it was repeated. Doesn't make this a deus ex machina.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 02:25 PM
Didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this?"
Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?

No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.

Joerg
2011-09-20, 02:28 PM
Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?

In that case, it doesn't really make much sense to use Enervation on him, does it? Nale could only hope that Durkon doesn't have Restoration prepared ...

Oh, wait, I see it now: casting Restoration apparently takes three rounds, so it isn't a quick counter. OK. (Answered my own question, but perhaps others are wondering, too.)

AgentofOdd
2011-09-20, 02:29 PM
I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this?"
Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ? :smallconfused:

I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
"Oh no, we're ****ed"
"Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.Who says they're out of the woods yet? Durkon lost a powerful spell that could get rid of Sabine, but the battle's far from over. There's a good chance they still can't take on the cleric. An actual solution to the Durkon problem would be something like Nale pulling a similarly leveled Druid out of a pokeball.

Shale
2011-09-20, 02:31 PM
You're confusing "Deus ex machina" with "not being told all of a character's precise strengths and weaknesses in spreadsheet form before the fight".

AgentofOdd
2011-09-20, 02:36 PM
Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?Not too sure about it myself, but the rules (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Negative_levels) seem to say Durkon would get back the spell.
"A spellcaster loses one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses." "This loss persists until the negative level is removed."

Mantine
2011-09-20, 02:40 PM
No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.

Mmmh, guess that's it then.
I took Sabine's assessment as your way of communicating us the two team's current balance of strenght (which in my view the wand arbitrarily changed), but if instead that was just her personal opinion (like in, they could've won even without the wand), then the whole perspective of it changes.
Fine, I'm convinced.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 02:48 PM
was just her personal opinion (like in, they could've won even without the wand)

That isn't what he said. He said she didn't take the wand into her estimation. Not that they could've won without it.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 02:49 PM
I took Sabine's assessment as your way of communicating us the two team's current balance of strenght

No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.

ericgrau
2011-09-20, 02:51 PM
It's a nice to have generally useful wand. Nale planned on fighting OotS, which somehow he figured out in his massive intellect contained 1 or more casters. This falls more under the category of weapons and tools than contrivances. Their wizard prepared far more specifically and it's still not unusual.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 03:01 PM
That isn't what he said. He said she didn't take the wand into her estimation. Not that they could've won without it.
If both were just opinions and their accuracy non guaranteed, then Sabine's statement "we can't win like this" may have been false, and consequently they may have been able to win even without the wand, somehow. :smallsigh:

No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.

Yes, good at that, I'm convinced.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 03:04 PM
Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 03:06 PM
If both were just opinions and their accuracy non guaranteed, then Sabine's statement "we can't win like this" may have been false, and consequently they may have been able to win even without the wand, somehow. :smallsigh:

He said her opinion was false for a specific reason. She didn't take into account the wand.

Just saying.

pendell
2011-09-20, 03:18 PM
[self-scrubbed]

Let sleeping dogs lie, I shall.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 03:32 PM
Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm :smallbiggrin:

ricorum
2011-09-20, 03:50 PM
So, reading through the forum just answered my question about the two punchlines. Cleric's feather fall is just letting them fall than healing them, and Durkon can't pronounce things correctly. Am I right?

Threadnaught
2011-09-20, 04:29 PM
The "stretch" is the possibility of it happening. Something is called a stretch because it requires you to reach for an explanation that is not easily at hand, like a person stretching to reach the top shelf.

However, the explanation here is easily reachable by anyone: Nale has a history of carefully planning his attacks to match his enemies' strengths and weaknesses. He went to a store and bought a wand. He picked a wand that he could use and that complimented the existing powers of his girlfriend. Done. Easy. No stretching required. If the average reader can see something and completely understand how or why it happened, even if it happened off-panel and isn't discussed, then it's not a stretch. The fact that he chose well just means he's good at choosing.

Ultimately, I think everyone understands what you are saying. It's just that what you are saying is wrong. It's not even remotely in the same class as your Athena example, and you seem to be the only one who thinks it is. The wand is not external, because it has been explicitly explained that Nale went shopping for magic items. The wand is not arbitrary, because it is within his price range and it makes sense that he would pick something evil and effective. The wand is not solving the problem, because the damn fight is not over yet. So if it's not external, not arbitrary, and not solving the problem, it cannot be a Deus Ex Machina.

I am so sick of this computer turning itself off when I get even slightly wordy, it's even more annoying than the people who keep asserting that Nale's ability to prepare magic items for a fight against the order is a Deus Ex Machina.


There are only three things in the comic so far I can remember that I believe are actual DEs. Celia falling through the ceiling, this wasn't even hinted at before that specific strip. Julio Scoundrél who appeared just to forward the plot and give Elan a PrC. And on the evil side of the game/story we have Julia Greenhilt as a means to lure the order to Cliffport.

Could you confirm or deny any of these for me, or would you appreciate me keeping my current interpretation of the story?


You write a good story, thanks for the entertainment so far.

And I like the gaming articles too, they're full of great tips.

UtimaII
2011-09-20, 04:36 PM
Heh, heh. Cleric's Feather Fall. That was just awesome, particularly because of its simplicity.

Nohar
2011-09-20, 04:38 PM
A wonderful strip, and a faithful callback to this comic's origins. I love it :) Cleric Feather Fall was gold :smallbiggrin:

The Succubus
2011-09-20, 04:41 PM
Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.

Treasure this moment Rich. It's something to tell your grandkids about! :smallbiggrin:

Surfing HalfOrc
2011-09-20, 04:48 PM
Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.

NOBODY expects to win an argument on the Internet! Thats why it's so EFFECTIVE!

100 Shiny, New Internets to the Giant! HUZZAH!

The Succubus
2011-09-20, 04:51 PM
NOBODY expects to win an argument on the Internet! Thats why it's so EFFECTIVE!

100 Shiny, New Internets to the Giant! HUZZAH!

Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now? :smalltongue:

Cornelius Grim
2011-09-20, 04:57 PM
Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now? :smalltongue:

Yeah, he's awesome enough to do it. I'd buy it. :smallbiggrin:

Darthteej
2011-09-20, 05:03 PM
Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now? :smalltongue:

Don't provoke him, he'll do it. His username comes from his tendency to act like a Know-It-All on the WoTC forums, after all.

One Skunk Todd
2011-09-20, 05:32 PM
Is anybody else looking for a rickroll buried somewhere in Rich and Mantine's discussion?

One Skunk Todd
2011-09-20, 05:35 PM
Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

Adeptus
2011-09-20, 05:36 PM
I would advice our beloved Giant to not feed the trolls, but of course it's his time to spend as he wants.

It was one of the funniest strips in the comic, and that's a very high standard.

Gilphon
2011-09-20, 05:38 PM
Me, I'm just a little surprised that The Giant, who rarely posts in the discussion threads at all, bothered to have an argument with the one guy posting who expressed a negative opinion.

But giving the Giant internets for winning the argument is a pointless gesture; I'm pretty sure he already has a near infinite supply by now.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-20, 05:44 PM
What with all the negative levels being passed around, I'm starting to think the Giant wants to tell a lower level story. We currently have the Order pegged at around 11-12th, right?

Wrong. They're all higher, around 15th, at least Durkon and V. Mass Death Ward is an eighth level spell and so is Power Word Stun, that V used when s/he and Haley were fighting the bounty hunters, almost 100 strips ago. Although Durkon may be lower level, I'm not entirely sure about the rules for divine spellcasting, and the Giant stated that he had been under the impression that MDW was a seventh level spell.


One of the absolute funniest strips in a long time. Also, I think just about every time Thor shows up he is hilarious. Great strip.



Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic.

There are countless other examples. These things happen all the time in literature. What you are talking about happening at Mount Doom would of course be ridiculous, because it would be anticlimactic for the end of the trilogy. This isn't the end of the OOTS, however, just mid-battle, and is maintaining the tension and the suspense. The characters will show their inner strength plenty by adapting to these challenges. They haven't failed to have inner strength just because they can't predict everything that will happen. They are finite beings, after all, not gods. That makes them a lot more "human" and interesting then if they just kick straight ass all the time, and to be honest I like them more because of it.

Hear, hear!


I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?

It might have restored them, we don't know yet because he hadn't done much besides wake up. If not, Durkon could cast the simple fourth level Restoration, as has been cited multiple times.

EmperorSarda
2011-09-20, 05:55 PM
This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.


Or as the Giant said as has been indicated in the comic, Durkon is not done researching "Mass Death Ward". There are still some kinks to work out, and he probably needs to Commune with Thor to get that spell available.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-20, 06:03 PM
Either that's a really flimsy mace, or it should be a focus.

Um, he was kidding about it being an actual spell component. He just meant that unlike Squishy Wizards, clerics have the physical cajones to whack someone in the back of the head and put them to sleep without an actual spell - just like how Clerical Feather Fall isn't really Feather Fall, just casting Heal to negate enough damage that he might as well have not fallen.

Also, OMFG the Giant participated so much! Nice change. Congratulations on actually winning an argument on the Internet! Heaven knows I never have. :smallbiggrin:

ThePhantasm
2011-09-20, 06:17 PM
Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm :smallbiggrin:

I actually was writing my response while the Giant was posting his, so I didn't see it until after I made my comment. Furthermore I was clarifying something someone else said, not carrying out an argument (which had already run its course). Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump to assumptions. :smallwink:

Karoug
2011-09-20, 06:47 PM
The much more likely explanation is that since Durkon researched it (since it isn't in core), the angels don't recognize it. Durkon mentions his research specifically in the previous comic (805) - and Roy asked for the spell a hundred and thirty-four strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).

Those two would have the capability to pull that, but I think they would've been shown doing something to interfere had that happened.

Wow... just wow.... totally right about the much earlier reference... kudos!

But, I don't think that we would necessarily have been forewarned of unexpected factors -eg the return of Z'dtrri came out of the blue. That's the point of things happening off-screen- Rule of Drama, when they are revealed in the right moment...

Just saying that the Giant so far has not introduced a character without exploring his/her full (roleplaying) potential, and Malack has not yet shown his. From a pure metagaming prespective, it could just be his time to shine.

But maybe I'm just being paranoid here...

Mantine
2011-09-20, 06:49 PM
I would advice our beloved Giant to not feed the trolls, but of course it's his time to spend as he wants.

How come everytime someone has a discussion and/or expresses criticism about something, a few shortsighted people will always rush and label it as flame/trolling? :smallconfused:

trolling<>criticism
flame<>discussion
This thread is about strip #806 and everything that matters it, be it praise, discussion or criticism.
Since what actually took place here was a decent, adult conversation which reached a mutual agreement, on what basis do you feel entitled to insult it, and insult me?
Keep such disrespectful comments to yourself, they're not needed.

Shoelessgdowar
2011-09-20, 06:54 PM
Not much. Firstly, there's no "diabolous ex machina".
"Deus" doesn't equal good nor bad, in ancient and common literature it's simply seen as an "act of god" which forwards the plot or solves an entangled situation.
It has no side, they're all "Deus Ex Machina".
Maybe you were confusing it with the trope, dunno.. but if so, I'm hoping you didn't believe that the term "Deus Ex Machina" was simply born out of Tvtropes :smalltongue:

Secondly, what I said is that the situation is a Deus Ex, not Nale's ability of carrying wands.
Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
And that would be missing the point.

Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
What are the odds?
The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

I contend that his usage of a newer term does not negate its value, but instead validates its usage as a more appropriate delineation for good and evil beings being helped by a positive or negative powerful entity. True the original meaning of Deux Ex Machina did not make such a delineation, but in truth the term originally only related to the protagonists being saved at the last moment and frequently was literally a pulley machine acting as the hand of Odin or Zeus saving them with no real valid explanation other then it was the will of the supreme being. The term comes from Ancient Theatre and was actually a machine, so technically Deux Ex Machina was ONLY for good because it was always used for the protagonist/heroes or innocents and neutrals. And while Diabolous Ex Machina was not originally ever used, it is a very accurate modern term to be an evil counterpart since it is a Devil/Demon from the Machine... which we have seen (Qarr's One-In-A-Million Chance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)) here, because that was... well... seriously a stretch... though as Elan shows, completely the Trope of One-In-A-Million Chance... Impossible is Impossible, Unlikely is Unlikely, but One-In-A-Million is guaranteed to happen!!!

On that note, I believe this actually needs its own special term

Deux Sans Machina or G-D without a machine... as shown with the Colon Tumor so long ago, Thor's answering Machine and the way his devices work are all broken. So this is a moment when the Machine is missing :)


I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?
Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ? :smallconfused:

I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
"Oh no, we're ****ed"
"Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.

This point was ninja'd by... well The Giant mainly... AWESOME!!!


No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.

Sorry Giant, I actually want to argue the fact Athena is even really a Deux Ex herself... Odysseus is arguably one of the most inventive heroes in Greek Mythology, so Athena was more a contrived expedience instead of Homer writing about Odysseus spending hours making a beggar costume before heading in (unless we accept that the Myth is true and not a work of ancient storytelling, in which case it is just an accurate account) which would have been pointless exposition and Athena was more dramatic as well as making it seem like the Olympian Pantheon was sort of apologizing for his losing his crew and years of his life. So while it was a bit contrived, this was not a real save. A real Deux Ex would be more The gifts of Perseus in the original Harry Hamlin 'Clash of the Titans'. Zeus places him in safety, he gives him the exact tools he will need: Sword that can cut through anything, Mirrored Shield, Helmet of Invisibility, Mechanical Bird (because Athena won't give up her real one), Bridle to Harness Pegasus... those are real Deux Ex Machina... everything was unattainable and beyond his mortal capacity and he would have lost without them.


Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?

In that case, it doesn't really make much sense to use Enervation on him, does it? Nale could only hope that Durkon doesn't have Restoration prepared ...

Oh, wait, I see it now: casting Restoration apparently takes three rounds, so it isn't a quick counter. OK. (Answered my own question, but perhaps others are wondering, too.)


Not too sure about it myself, but the rules (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Negative_levels) seem to say Durkon would get back the spell.

Yes, officially, if he is restored, he will regain all lost spell uses, but still will be limited to what was prepared or heals of the same levels.


Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

MARK TWAIN!!! Or maybe a spell that instantly lets you know how deep water is and how high a mast is so you know if you can climb to the top of the mast to survive if the ship sinks? Oh wait, you said fathom... *rimshot* I think that pun was a sinker... it ended up in the Holey Word: Marianas Trench.

pendell
2011-09-20, 06:54 PM
Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?

That's not a comment on the storytelling. I'm assuming Nale had a reason that made sense to him, at any rate. I just don't know what it is.

Or has Nale decided to go Batman and have one of everything on a utility belt for any possible situation?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Shoelessgdowar
2011-09-20, 06:58 PM
Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?

That's not a comment on the storytelling. I'm assuming Nale had a reason that made sense to him, at any rate. I just don't know what it is.

Or has Nale decided to go Batman and have one of everything on a utility belt for any possible situation?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because he's EVIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLL!!! Most likely because they tend to not fight together, but work separately, and being slightly jealous of her awesome power he got a wand to do what she can. In addition he can augment her uses by using it himself on the same person, and thereby rapidly drain a foe into no levels, killing them and making them a undead of whom Sabine or he can probably take control.

FujinAkari
2011-09-20, 06:58 PM
Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?


Because he didn't have anyone recruited to counter Durkon and sending Sabine into melee against a giant dwarf is a -terrible- idea.

Raddish
2011-09-20, 07:02 PM
Obviously because of the good old scout motto: Be Prepared.

FujinAkari
2011-09-20, 07:06 PM
This is a bit of a throwback, but out of curiosity...


Every couple of strips I see big discussions of what Deus Ex Machina actually means, and then people -keep- misusing it... why? O.o

Snails
2011-09-20, 07:13 PM
Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

Because when it works well , it will work even better because of Sabine. Of course, it is likely to not work very well, if at all.

Such would be irresistible to a mind of Nale's caliber.

Valley
2011-09-20, 07:16 PM
Wait....how can his accent screw it up? He has talked to them before..surly they have some kind of translator or something?

rewinn
2011-09-20, 07:16 PM
Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

This rather obscure spell for determining the vertical location of your magically powered submarine's "mast" (what some call the conning tower) is actually very useful when navigating stealthily. It is therefore always whispered.

Shoelessgdowar
2011-09-20, 07:20 PM
My bet is still the same: Durkon goes to get Malack's help, who does not turn out to have some convoluted reason to not wipe the floor with the linear guild.

I'm not trying to argue, because I'm slightly confused by your wording, so I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning and this ends up being an agreement with your statement.

If you means that Malack would need some convoluted reason to wipe the floor with the linear guild, then I will point out that Nale killed three of Malack's children, and that has been clearly established since strip #724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), with the animosity being displayed indirectly all the way back in strip #715 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html) (Still love the description of Z, the fact it lists Yikyik who at that point had been deceased for 652 Strips or roughly 90+% of the strip existence both then and now, and a side note it gives us Elan and Nale's height and last known weight) and directly in Strip #718 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html)... so there is no way that his reasons would be contrived or convoluted.

If you were saying that it is perfectly logical for Durkon to go to Malack and then Malack has a perfectly good reason (ie. not convoluted) to wipe the floor with the LG, then I agree and apologize for this post beyond the fact it gives great references for people to refer to... Elan and Nale are 5'11" and were 180lbs when Nale's wanted poster was commissioned, though both may be buffer and heavier due to fat weighing less than their manly muscles now make them.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-20, 07:21 PM
Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.
I've never seen it happen before. Its so strange! :smallbiggrin:

Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm :smallbiggrin:
I WOULD take offense at this because I think the Phantasm is awesome, but it's the Giant. Of course he knows more about his own comic than the Phantasm. :smalltongue: Also, he writes stories and knows from experience what these things are from years of us forumites tearing apart everything he writes.

How come everytime someone has a discussion and/or expresses criticism about something, a few shortsighted people will always rush and label it as flame/trolling? :smallconfused:

Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. :smallsigh: Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.


Keep such disrespectful comments to yourself, they're not needed.
This makes me sad. :smallfrown: (You were kinda insulting to the Phantasm too...)

raymundo
2011-09-20, 07:42 PM
I'm not trying to argue, because I'm slightly confused by your wording, so I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning and this ends up being an agreement with your statement.

[..]


I'm quite sure he meant Durkon going to Malak, who then has some odd reason to not help him out against the LG,. Why would he say that? Because every time one of the heroes got the upper hand in the last strips, something unfortunate happened, negating the advantage. "Convoluted" is his word of choice to phrase his dislike of these twists.

Gwynfrid
2011-09-20, 07:42 PM
Treasure this moment Rich. It's something to tell your grandkids about! :smallbiggrin:

I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.

That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.

That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.

One Skunk Todd
2011-09-20, 08:03 PM
Or maybe a spell that instantly lets you know how deep water is and how high a mast is so you know if you can climb to the top of the mast to survive if the ship sinks?

Truly it is a "knot"ty problem. Very likely out of my "league". :p


This rather obscure spell for determining the vertical location of your magically powered submarine's "mast" (what some call the conning tower) is actually very useful when navigating stealthily. It is therefore always whispered.

That sounds rather stern, still, I bow to your arcane knowledge although I'm sure others might have different drafts of the spell. I imagine they'll beam them to us soon.

Mantine
2011-09-20, 08:14 PM
I WOULD take offense at this because I think the Phantasm is awesome, but it's the Giant. Of course he knows more about his own comic than the Phantasm. :smalltongue:
Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.


Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. :smallsigh: Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.
Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.

I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.

That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.

That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.

I must say, I've been kind of waiting for this.
There's no "win" or "lose" in an argument, just two different positions, of which sometimes one proves to be stronger than the other. That's it.
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

/typo fix'in

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.
The "rebalancing wand" DOES exist, it's the reason behind its existance that convinced me out of my initial "what a lame DE" impression.
I still believe the wand to be a tad bit convenient, just not to the point of being a deus ex.

Shoelessgdowar
2011-09-20, 08:34 PM
Truly it is a "knot"ty problem. Very likely out of my "league". :p



That sounds rather stern, still, I bow to your arcane knowledge although I'm sure others might have different drafts of the spell. I imagine they'll beam them to us soon.

Buoy, there must be something wrong with your hippocampus, you're a little dingy if you think you can coral me into letting you broadside me with puns. I will seas victory from the depths of defeat. You're beating a dead seahorse if you think I'll be drawn in by some siryn's call to battle. I can pier into the mists and sea you're in murky waters... aw frigate, I should just dock you points for shallow humor, you're chasing a white whale if you think I can just sail such watered down wit like ice in the desert. You've run aground, you're washed up, I'm gunna make you my beach, shell I continue or will you run up the white flag? I have avast skill and I cannon will blow you out of the water. Mark my words, Island more shots from my exposition then you can from your riggings, and wheel deck you even when I'm board.

I think I went a little overboard with this


Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.


Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.


I must say, I've been kind of waiting for this.
There's no "win" or "lose" in an argument, just two different positions, of which sometimes one proves to be stronger than the other. That's it.
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

/typo fix'in

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.
The "rebalancing wand" DOES exist, it's the reason behind its existance that convinced me out of my initial "what a lame DE" impression.
I still believe the wand to be a tad bit convenient, just not to the point of being a deus ex.

I believe the Deux Ex argument is a Schroedinger's Cat... it was dead before it was ever started, but we don't know that until we observe and acknowledge that, but paradoxically when we observe it we only keep it alive longer to not be dead.

One Skunk Todd
2011-09-20, 08:45 PM
Buoy, there must be something wrong with your hippocampus, you're a little dingy if you think you can coral me into letting you broadside me with puns. I will seas victory from the depths of defeat. You're beating a dead seahorse if you think I'll be drawn in by some siryn's call to battle. I can pier into the mists and sea you're in murky waters... aw frigate, I should just dock you points for shallow humor, you're chasing a white whale if you think I can just sail such watered down wit like ice in the desert. You've run aground, you're washed up, I'm gunna make you my beach, shell I continue or will you run up the white flag? I have avast skill and I cannon will blow you out of the water. Mark my words, Island more shots from my exposition then you can from your riggings, and wheel deck you even when I'm board.

I think I went a little overboard with this

You've swamped me with your surfeit of puns. I'm too tongue-tide to continue. To reef-phrase, you've beached me. :)

Gusion
2011-09-20, 09:22 PM
Per somebody's question... if we're going by D&D/SRD 3.5 rules than...

No, if Durkon dispels his negative levels (via Restoration) he does not automatically get the higher level spell back. Once lost via a level drain he must pray for the spell again. The relevant SRD language here is that Durkon's spell is gone "as if he had cast his highest-level."

The only exception I've seen to this is some DMs will allow for the restored slot to be used the same day on a spontaneously cast of a cure spell. Strictly speaking this is also against the rules as a spontaneous cast is "in place of a prepared spell" and the restored cleric doesn't have any in the spell slots that were restored..

Also, clerics can indeed perform independent research on spells according to SRD.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-20, 09:56 PM
Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.
Ah, O.K. Silly post times and edit-times confuse and confound me. :smallredface:


Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.
Most people weren't around centuries ago, and first learned of the term from TvTropes. Some people, (myself included, sadly) just get annoyed when seeing Words Like This, since instead of making a point and backing it up with words, alot people just say a phrase they learned from TvTropes and walk away. (You did not do this though, awesomely, I'm just saying that seeing Words Like This gets me upset at TvTropes for accidentally creating shorthand for real arguments, and gets me all hostile at the person who uses them.)(I bet some old dead Greek dude thought of writing SOMETHING similar to TvTropes long ago though... :P)

Gwynfrid
2011-09-20, 09:59 PM
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.


You know what, your first point here convinces me that your second one has merit. "Completely" in my post was excess rhetoric.