Gnorman's E6 Compendium

[Gnorman]

Does this mean that with a Hand Crossbow, the deadeye threatens everyone with 30ft.?

If so does that mean everytime somebody cast a spell, moved, drank a potion or anything that normally provoke an attack of oppurtunity provoke one from the deadeye if they are within 30ft. of him?

Yeah... let's change that to ten.


A feat, if I may?

Unorthodox Training
Your training was a little... different.
Benefit: Select a Class; your choice of Archetypes for that class expands to include all classes within that "power group" (Skillful, Psionic, and so on.)
Special: This feat must be taken at 1st level.

An interesting idea, and keeping it within the "power group" prevents most of the nonsensical combinations. I like it, though there are probably a few combinations that will end up being ridiculous and illogical (but hey, that's half the fun).

Idea for a pseudo-gestalt option:

Extracurricular Activities
Prerequisites: Character level 6
Benefit: Choose one archetype for your class that you did not choose to be your original archetype. You gain that archetype's Lesser Archetype Ability.

Vocational Training
Prerequisites: Character level 6, Extracurricular Activities
Benefit: You gain the Moderate Archetype Ability of the archetype you chose with Extracurricular Activities.

A New Career
Prerequisites: Character level 6, Vocational Training
Benefit: You gain the Greater Archetype Ability of the archetype you chose with Extracurricular Activities.

[Gnorman]

The following archetypes have been added:

Martial Artist Brawler: A scrappy, canny fighter with an expanded repertoire of weapons and the ability to use the sublime arts.

Kensei Gladiator: A steely, determinate warrior who hones his blade to a razor's edge, using maneuvers and devastating critical strikes.

Crimson Disciple Red Mage: A savage magus who takes on the mantle of mighty dragons to gain their powers and characteristics.

[Gnorman]

Following archetypes added:

Gallant Sentinel: A unflappable defender who uses maneuvers to great effect, keeping up his fighting spirit and making himself an obvious threat.

Cutthroat Scoundrel: A devious combatant who uses underhanded maneuvers with murderous intent.

Doomsinger Poet: A dour performer who can stir the very dead with the power of their song.

Weaver Blue Mage: A devious mage whose powerful illusion spells allow him to become more elusive.

Oracle White Mage: A prescient caster with superlative senses and the ability to spy on foes and call on the gods for assistance.

Also the tyrant's henchmen have been added in their entirety.

[Amechra]

You know...

I had an odd idea.

Namely, what would happen if DnD was based of something like this for its 20-level incarnation?

So base classes would only be 6 levels long, with PrCs or multiclassing making up everything thereafter?

And each PrC would be accessable by pretty much everyone in a "power group", but would have an archetype for each base class...

And the PrC's would still be 10 levels long... but their 1st level would replace the 6th level of a given base class.

And as for Theurgic classes... you make a PrC for two groups, have it require 2 levels from one, and 3 from the other, and have it progress the Archetype abilities of each, while supplying an archetype of its own (which would be the one based off a given base class, of course.)

You know what? Reduce DnD to 15 levels; the math works better at that point anyway.

And with this PrC idea... you would have a Black Mage (Demonologist)/Invoker (Black Mage), rather than a Wizard X/PrC1 Y/PrC2 Z...

You know what? I request to steal your e6 classes for this purpose.

[Gnorman]

You know...

I had an odd idea.

Namely, what would happen if DnD was based of something like this for its 20-level incarnation?

So base classes would only be 6 levels long, with PrCs or multiclassing making up everything thereafter?

And each PrC would be accessable by pretty much everyone in a "power group", but would have an archetype for each base class...

And the PrC's would still be 10 levels long... but their 1st level would replace the 6th level of a given base class.

And as for Theurgic classes... you make a PrC for two groups, have it require 2 levels from one, and 3 from the other, and have it progress the Archetype abilities of each, while supplying an archetype of its own (which would be the one based off a given base class, of course.)

You know what? Reduce DnD to 15 levels; the math works better at that point anyway.

And with this PrC idea... you would have a Black Mage (Demonologist)/Invoker (Black Mage), rather than a Wizard X/PrC1 Y/PrC2 Z...

You know what? I request to steal your e6 classes for this purpose.

Steal away, I'd be interested to see your results. My own plan for "epic play" (if I ever get around to it) was to extend the classes by another six levels, making 12 the final point (it's a nice sweet spot: you get an ability score bump, a feat, and you're still able to get 6th level spells with either a spontaneous caster or 9/10 progression PrC). Level 12 is about the highest characters can get before they are officially world-shattering demigods (and even then, they probably are at least a bit). Polymorphing, teleportation, planar binding, antimagic fields, raising the dead, all these things are now in the mix and irrevocably alter the game, but they aren't ever-present and it stops short of things like Wish Miracle, Holy Word, and Gate, which are really the death knells of rational play. Capping it at 6th level spells (perhaps a single 7th as an SLA, like how the classes currently get one 4th) would maintain a certain amount of restriction that I believe rewards creative play. People who can raise the dead and teleport halfway across the world are A BIG DEAL, there's not one in every temple or city, you can't just trip over one - kinda like Eberron, whose design philosophy of low-but-pervasive magic I really enjoy. But that's just one person's rambling diatribe about the flaws in the system. The other option I was kicking around was a progressive gestalt system, wherein you would get level 6 in one class and then start another class at level 1 on the other side of the gestalt progression next level. That would be a better option for those who want to maintain the low-magic atmosphere of E6. There are probably ways to abuse the hell of gestalt, though, since I never kept that idea in mind while designing the classes.

Anyway, a few more developments in the class design. I spent some time with the mage classes, shoring up some gaps in their spell lists and altering a few here and there. The black mage's spellcasting now keys off of Intelligence (it makes more sense when you think about it - he's the studious necromancer, seeker of the forbidden ritual and nameless tome and so his attributes should reflect such academic pursuits), though he is still encouraged to invest in Charisma via his rebuke undead ability. Only the necromancer archetype can use the summon undead spells now, to make him stand out a bit more (before, any black mage could be a necromancer), while the demonologist had his bonus spells rehauled to more theme-appropriate choices. The red mage got a few more fire spells and 4 skill points per level, to make up for the fact that he's now the only Charisma-based caster - pyromancer in particular was retooled to give him a greater variety of fire-based spells, not just blasting. The sand shaper may not summon desert allies, so I those are the major "alternates" The green mage now has 4 skills a level, a few new storm-themed spells, and the ultra-frosty Hyperborean archetype, a nod towards the glacial regions (and since the blue mage long ago lost that aspect, Greeny here is the best fit, though I would not necessarily be opposed to a change).

Now just need to finish up the Noble and the psionic classes, get them to four, and then I'll start the whole process over again, because with all the archetype ideas kicking around in my head, I am definitely going to expand the roster of each class to 5. There will be venom mages and shield-bearers, cold-hearted mercenaries and vermin lords, chaos children and magical pirates.

... I'm gonna run out of space.

[Mangles]

Commented on your new engi archetype. All round good neutral addition. Doesn't put any more focus on any type of engi.

[Gnorman]

Duelist Noble and Tempest Aspirant archetypes added.

[Noctis Vigil]

I don't see the Tempest Aspirant. Am I just missing something? :smallconfused:

[Soda]

This is the best thing ever.

[Gnorman]

I don't see the Tempest Aspirant. Am I just missing something? :smallconfused:

Haven't gotten around to updating the megathread on some of the new archetypes - it should be on the separate aspirant thread, though.

New archetypes added:

Abhorrent Empath
Gravitic Kinetic
Pestilent Black Mage
Ophidian Green Mage

Also kicking around the idea of offering magical and psionic classes a choice between two capstone SLAs (while still maintaining the 1/day limit). Gives them a bit more variety. But introducing more 4th level spells may be pushing it.


This is the best thing ever.

Thanks!

[AtlanteanTroll]

Also kicking around the idea of offering magical and psionic classes a choice between two capstone SLAs (while still maintaining the 1/day limit). Gives them a bit more variety. But introducing more 4th level spells may be pushing it.


I think that'd be safe enough. It's not like they'll be common or anything/

[Gnorman]

I think that'd be safe enough. It's not like they'll be common or anything/

I've just done it. All magical classes now have two capstones SLAs to choose from each day.

Updates: White and Blue Mages had a few more spells added to their lists, a few air/wind themed for the blue and some offensive holy-themed choices for the white, to allow both of them to contribute a little more actively to combat.

Hyperborean has been changed to a blue mage archetype, and the Subterranean Green Mage (a cave-dwelling sage with powers over magma and rock) has been added to take its place.

Also added:
Chaos Child Red Mage - shapeshifting prodigy with the ability to shift longer and into stronger forms

Mystic White Mage - angelic adherent who channels the powers of the heavens into retribution for his enemies

Mercenary Gladiator - a bounty-hunting combatant who specializes in knowing his foe inside and out

Initiate Zealot - a crusading champion of the gods who focuses more on channeling the divine than on his combat skills

Nearing the end, folks: at this point I have to come up with one last archetype for the brawler, hunter, sentinel, engineer, noble, sage, poet, scoundrel, aspirant, empath, kinetic, and two more for the esoteric and subliminal.

Then work will commence on my new campaign setting and its races, now officially titled Shadows of Aurum.

[Endalos]

Looking forward to seeing the campaign setting and the races expanded. I just wished I have a rl group I could force these classes on :P

[Gnorman]

Spent some quality time with the sentinel today, bringing his power level up to a hopefully more competitive standard. He gets bonus fighter feats now, and all of the archetypes have been improved. The juggernaut is now basically a dungeoncrasher fighter, with bonuses to bull rush and overrun, and I added the Bastion archetype, who specializes in defensive shield maneuvers.

Other archetypes added:

Stalker Hunter - a canny woodsman with the ability to track and trap even the most elusive foe

Bruiser Brawler - a brutish fighter who has replaced his own hand with a mechanical marvel, capable of shattering damage reduction and attacking at range

Vindicator Gladiator - changed from Mercenary, slightly tweaked - he no longer gains tracking abilities, but instead gains a bonus to attack foes who target him consistently in melee

Machinist Engineer - they called him mad, mad I say, to tinker with his own body like that, but the benefits of his mechanical construction are difficult to dismiss

Oh, and stack - I am very sorry, but I had to remove your feats from the Community Contributions section to make room for the new archetypes. I will re-include them when I make a feat thread.

[stack]

No problem. I am trying to learn a bit of psionics to add more feats for all these new classes.

Also, blast you for adding so many cool archetypes! Now I don't know what to build for the PBP I'm applying to.

[Gnorman]

Following archetypes have been added:

Didact Sage - Truenaming that hopefully doesn't suck!

Dilettante Noble - Chameleon-like jack-of-trades with the ability to do almost anything

Pugilist Aspirant - a scrappy fighter with the ability to channel psionic power through his fists

Telephasm Kinetic - a powerful psychic who can turn your skeleton inside out with his brain

Superegoist Empath - a psychic who looks out for his comrades first and foremost, but draws on their latent psychic abilities to fuel his own powers

[Kymme]

Wow, your a quick worker!
I love all the new archetypes, keep 'em coming! :smallbiggrin:

[ZeltArruin]

Oooh, I really like the dilettante noble, that looks like a lot of fun to play. Awesome work, on everything, man.

[stack]

Feat inbound!

Psionic General:

Bloody Minded [Psionic]: regain focus on critical hits

Prerequisites: BAB +3, ability to gain psionic focus

Benefit: Any time you confirm a critical or have a critical confirmed against you, you may, as a free action before the end of your next turn, automatically regain psionic focus. If you do not expend focus before the end of your next turn, this feat has no effect (you cannot have more than one focus).

This feat may be taken as a fighter bonus feat.

Atavist (Warden):

No, you don't [Psionic]: block incoming attacks by expending psionic focus

Prerequisites: BAB +5, ability to manifest a psychic shield per the Warden Archetype's lesser power

Benefit: When psionically focused, and a foe is about to attack you with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack,as an immediate action you may expend your focus to expand your shield, creating a hemispherical barrier (or a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground) of force, disrupting your foe’s line of effect to you, providing you total cover against a single attack with a weapon, spell, or psionic power. Your foe’s first attack in this round cannot be made and is wasted against you. The shield immediately returns to its normal size. Your foe could choose to attack the area in which you have taken cover with an area attack (such as a fireball spell). In this case, you gain a +8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a +4 bonus on Reflex saves.

This feat may be taken as a fighter bonus feat.

(Basically, you get wings of cover for expending your focus)

Side question: what good is the Atavist getting claws of the beast as a bonus power when they can manifest it freely anyway. They end up short a power verses the other archetypes.

[Gnorman]

Side question: what good is the Atavist getting claws of the beast as a bonus power when they can manifest it freely anyway. They end up short a power verses the other archetypes.

Because I meant to change that to Bite of the Wolf and forgot.

Also, is it just me or does the esoteric kind of... suck? I am considering scrapping but I do not quite know what to replace it with. Or perhaps I shall give it mantles/nodes to choose powers from?

EDIT: Pretty serious overhaul of the way the psionic classes work. None of them have pre-set lists now. Kinetic can choose metacreativity, psychokinesis, and psychoportation powers. Empath gets telepathy and clairsentience (seems unbalanced at first but remember there are a lot of psionic powers are in the telepathy discipline). Esoteric gets the rather limited choices of psychometabolism and clairsentience, but also gets to select two mantles or nodes, and may select powers from them. So now only the esoteric gets to cherry-pick powers from all over the place, as was perhaps unconsciously intended by the name of the class itself.

[Eldest]

I like the change. It will make them different from the magic people.

FYI, I put a link to this thread in my signature, because I finally deleted my LoC game that was dead and my sig looked too empty then. If you mind, I'll remove it.

[Surrealistik]

Personally, I think the tyrant minions should last forever or until killed, or other minions are summoned (when at the max) as per the henchmen feature. Saves on book keeping and keeps the archetype power meaningful. You might also considering adding a clause that minions never take damage on a successful saving throw, or from a missed attack as per 4e.

If you think starting off a combat with all those extra actions may be too powerful, then cap the number of minions the Tyrant can retain on a 'permanent' basis as above: 2 + 1 per 2 character levels beyond the first 2.

[Gnorman]

Personally, I think the tyrant minions should last forever or until killed, or other minions are summoned (when at the max) as per the henchmen feature. Saves on book keeping and keeps the archetype power meaningful. You might also considering adding a clause that minions never take damage on a successful saving throw, or from a missed attack as per 4e.

If you think starting off a combat with all those extra actions may be too powerful, then cap the number of minions the Tyrant can retain on a 'permanent' basis as above: 2 + 1 per 2 character levels beyond the first 2.

Tyrant is already a bookkeeping nightmare so reductions in that regard = yes. Fair point.

To compensate perhaps minion-summoning should be a full-round action?

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, I think giving up your move + swift might be fair.

Would definitely recommend 4e style minions though as far as successful saves/misses are concerned; this prevents half damage on save AoE spells/effects from basically invalidating the feature.

[Amechra]

I has feats!

Myriad-Concept Synthesis
You have managed to synergize the abilities of many disparate methods of training, resulting in AWESOME.
Benefits: When determining what archetype abilities you have from each of your archetypes, add 1/2 your levels in other classes to each of your classes.

This one might seem a bit overpowered... But you can never get a Greater Archetype Ability, unless you actually have 6 levels in that class.

At the most, you could potentially get up to 3 classes up to Lesser Archetype abilities, but then the rest of their class features are kinda meh, being left at 2nd level for each.

Marked Pose of Duality
You have great ability; you might not be able to stay sane with that great ability, but you have it, at least.
Prerequisites: Must be about to take your first level in a class.
Benefits: Select a class; when you gain the Archetype feature for that class, you may select two Archetypes. You can swap between which of these archetypes is active at will, in a process that takes 1 minute; any daily ability that is expended in one archetype stays expended until you rest for 8 hours.
If an archetype grants bonus spells, and your class requires you to prepare your spells, your prepared archetype bonus spells are replaced by those of your other archetype that are of the same level. If your archetype allows you to prepare an additional Invention of a given type, you must replace that bonus Invention with the one specified in your other Archetype.
Special: This process is not without danger to your mind and body; each time that you use this feat, you are Fatigued for one hour; if you use this feat while Fatigued, you are instead Exhausted for an hour, and if Exhausted, you become Unconscious for an hour. If you happen to be immune to Fatigue or Exhaustion, you instead take an amount of damage equal to your character level times the number of times you have used the feat in the last hour.

I don't think this one adds too much power; it merely adds options horizontally, given that you can't have the two Archetypes simultaneously, and can't even save bonus spells/inventions between "forms".

I was thinking of maybe requiring that the archetypes have an alignment attached, so changing "form" requires an alignment shift. Oh well, if a player wants it, they can always use this to play an insane character with a multiple power disorder.

[Gnorman]

Yeah, I think giving up your move + swift might be fair.

Would definitely recommend 4e style minions though as far as successful saves/misses are concerned; this prevents half damage on save AoE spells/effects from basically invalidating the feature.

In 3.5 parlance, this would be giving them an Evasion + Mettle combo?

Hmmm. I'll have to think on it. I kind of like the idea of a well-placed fireball eliminating your minion army, as it does give the tyrant a meaningful weakness, but then again they're likely to have pretty terrible saves anyway so perhaps it's all a wash.

EDIT: On reflection, I have decided to go with it. Noble thread and megathread updated in that regard.

"Minions of any kind only have one hit point, but they do not suffer partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save"

Does that cover it effectively?

[Gnorman]

Just want to make a quick self-congratulatory post announcing that ALL CLASSES AND ARCHETYPES ARE NOW FINISHED.

Obviously, they are still open to review, revision, and editing, but all 100 class/archetype choices are now done and ready for playtesting (hint hint).

Time to do other stuff!

[Eldest]

*Kermit the Frog impersonation*
YYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAYYYYY!

I actually have no idea what he yells at the begining of every muppet show. Despite having watched it many times.

[Surrealistik]

In 3.5 parlance, this would be giving them an Evasion + Mettle combo?

Hmmm. I'll have to think on it. I kind of like the idea of a well-placed fireball eliminating your minion army, as it does give the tyrant a meaningful weakness, but then again they're likely to have pretty terrible saves anyway so perhaps it's all a wash.

EDIT: On reflection, I have decided to go with it. Noble thread and megathread updated in that regard.

"Minions of any kind only have one hit point, but they do not suffer partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save"

Does that cover it effectively?

Sounds good. I can't wait to try this bad boy out.

By the way, which magic items are allowed in your E6? Only those from the PHB?

Also, are the PHB available goblins/orcs identical to the ones in the MM, with respect to the minion feature?

[ZeltArruin]

By the way, which magic items are allowed in your E6? Only those from the PHB?

I always felt that only magic items creatable by E6 characters should exist. Any thing greater than that is an item crafted by the gods themselves.

[Surrealistik]

Possible suggestion to allow the Tyrant to have more thematic or logical minions:

The Tyrant can only summon humanoids, monstrous humanoids or giant minions with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater that are native to the prime material plane for whom he knows at least one native language. These minions must be taken from entries in the SRD or MM. Each minion summoned in this way may have a final CR no greater than half the tyrant's level (rounded down).

[Gnorman]

Sounds good. I can't wait to try this bad boy out.

By the way, which magic items are allowed in your E6? Only those from the PHB?

Also, are the PHB available goblins/orcs identical to the ones in the MM, with respect to the minion feature?

1. Like ZeltAlrruin says, anything craftable at that level, in my opinion.

2. Yes. Standard stats, skills, and equipment. The MM entry is exactly what you get.


Possible suggestion to allow the Tyrant to have more thematic or logical minions:

The Tyrant can only summon humanoids, monstrous humanoids or giant minions with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater that are native to the prime material plane for whom he knows at least one native language. These minions must be taken from entries in the SRD or MM. Each minion summoned in this way may have a final CR no greater than half the tyrant's level (rounded down).

I like it, though I'm sure someone with better op-fu than myself could find a way to break it. But then, what can't be broken with the application of time, effort, and knowledge?

Short list of what's available then, looking at the SRD (definitely a few standouts here and there):

Bugbear
Centaur
Derro
Doppleganger
Drow
Duergar
Dwarf
Elf
Githyanki
Githzerai
Gnoll
Gnome
Goblin
Grimlock
Half-Giant
Halfling
Human
Kobold
Kuo-toa
Lizardfolk
Ogre
Orc
Sahuagin
Troglodyte
Wererat
Werewolf
Yuan-ti Pureblood

[Surrealistik]

To further limit this, you could specify that the creature may only have a maximum level adjustment of +2. This eliminates stuff like Dopplegangers and Lycanthropes if you think that too powerful.

[Sanglorian]

What a great collection and a brilliant way to play E6.

You mentioned the OGL a couple of times in the thread, Gnorman, but I didn't notice a copy of the OGL or an OGC declaration. Are you planning to include one? I'd like to share and adapt your classes, but it's not really possible without the licence. I can help you figure out what you want to release as open game content if you like.

Keep up the great work :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Also, I was looking at the Peasant and I wonder if its Animal Husbandry feature makes sense given the archetypes - Experts and Adepts in particular. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better ability. Maybe a +2 bonus to two skills of his/her choice?

[ZeltArruin]

EDIT: Also, I was looking at the Peasant and I wonder if its Animal Husbandry feature makes sense given the archetypes - Experts and Adepts in particular. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better ability. Maybe a +2 bonus to two skills of his/her choice?

Yet the housecat DR was okie-kosher for you?

[Sanglorian]

Yet the housecat DR was okie-kosher for you?

Yeah, I'm willing to make an exception for humour! But I see your point -- I don't know when the class would get used, whatever features it has.

[Gnorman]

To further limit this, you could specify that the creature may only have a maximum level adjustment of +2. This eliminates stuff like Dopplegangers and Lycanthropes if you think that too powerful.

Honestly, it's probably not too powerful, and would make for a fantastic villain character. The Noble class should have a bit of Crazy Prepared, since it fits the theme. Having five doppelganger minions replacing the ruling council or royal family... basically the best idea ever, no? Turns out Sarevok was a Tyrant.


You mentioned the OGL a couple of times in the thread, Gnorman, but I didn't notice a copy of the OGL or an OGC declaration. Are you planning to include one? I'd like to share and adapt your classes, but it's not really possible without the licence. I can help you figure out what you want to release as open game content if you like.

EDIT: Also, I was looking at the Peasant and I wonder if its Animal Husbandry feature makes sense given the archetypes - Experts and Adepts in particular. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better ability. Maybe a +2 bonus to two skills of his/her choice?

Thank you for reminding me - I have updated the thread to include a copy of the OGL. I will have to create a new thread for Community Contributions, I think, as first page real estate is in extremely short supply at this point.

As to the second bit, the Peasant class was really kind of a minor addition, and I don't expect it to see much use outside of a one-stop shop for all NPC character building - basically, the class was kind of a lark and not entirely serious, so I slapped together some ideas rather quickly to encompass all NPC builds. Your idea would work just fine, I think.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, it's probably not too powerful, and would make for a fantastic villain character. The Noble class should have a bit of Crazy Prepared, since it fits the theme. Having five doppelganger minions replacing the ruling council or royal family... basically the best idea ever, no? Turns out Sarevok was a Tyrant.

Yeah, it does open up a lot of cool possibilities granted, and most of the really potent ones are only accessible at L6, so I guess it's fine. Alright, now onto the exact wording:


A tyrant gains the ability to summon minions. The tyrant may only summon humanoids, monstrous humanoids or giant minions with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater for whom he knows at least one native language in this way. These minions must be taken from entries in the SRD or MM. Each minion summoned in this way may have a final CR no greater than half the tyrant's level.

Minions have the statistics, abilities, and equipment as described in their entries with the exception that they can't gain experience, vanish when they die or are dismissed, and have only 1 hit point, but do not take partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save. Minions do not roll initiative and instead act on the tyrant's initiative count.

The tyrant may summon a minion into an unoccupied square within ten feet of himself as a full-round action. The tyrant may summon a maximum number of minions per day equal to four times his Charisma modifier. The tyrant may dismiss any number of minions as a swift action. Whenever the tyrant has more minions than his Charisma modifier, existing minions of his choice are automatically dismissed until their total number equals his Charisma modifier. Each minion that is dismissed in either of these ways replenishes the tyrant's daily minion limit by 1.

[ZeltArruin]

Greater Archetype Power: A cavalier may apply either the dark, celestial, fiendish, or winged templates to his mount. He also gains Spirited Charge as a bonus feat.He also gains Spirited Charge as a bonus feat.

Noticed the last sentence is repeated, Zealot, Cavalier archetype.

[Sanglorian]

I've given all of the classes a couple of reads through and I have a few thoughts and suggestions.

Rearranging Archetype Powers
On the class tables, why not list the features as "Archetype, Archetype (Lesser Power), Archetype (Moderate Power), Archetype (Greater Power)"? Then under class features you could have one entry for the archetype explaining that the lesser power is granted at 2nd level, the moderate at 4th and the greater at 6th.

The reason I suggest this is that each time I read the class features, I go to read "Lesser Archetype Power" and its two relatives, even though it's unnecessary information. I'd like to be able to skip a whole chunk and then read through the relevant features.

Don’t Choose an Archetype Until 2nd Level
Another thought I had was to push back archetype selection to second level. For combat and skilled classes this will have no effect; the magical and psionic classes will have to wait one level to get extra 1st-level spells and powers.

The reason I suggest this is that every time my friends and I generated D&D characters, we got distracted by each and every choice. It would be much simpler to say: “here are the 20 classes you have to choose from” than “here are the 100 plus archetypes you have to choose from”.

Of course, players would still be free to plan the archetype they desire for next level, but it also leaves them free to choose a different archetype if it makes sense in play (a green mage befriends a snake) or if they think it will be more fun.

Aspirant’s Martial Training
Should the aspirant have martial training listed at 5th level too in the class table, since he gets a bonus feat there as well?

Brawler Martial Artist Weapons
The martial artist is able to use monk weapons as if they were unarmed attacks. The monk is proficient with crossbows, javelins and slings. Is it your intention that they be able to use these weapons for Fight Harder and Smarter and the other features? (I think this could be cool, but it’s worth spelling out if it is the case or ruling out if it's not the case).

Brawler Ravager
The Moderate Archetype Power mentions ‘barbarian of his own class level’. However, whirling frenzy doesn’t change by level.

Expanding the Hunter
Have you considered expanding the hunter’s features to make them more melee friendly? I can imagine an axe-wielding beastmaster, for example, but in your rules he or she wouldn’t even be able to use penetration, let alone the other hunter features.

Hunter Beastmaster
What action does the Lesser Archetype Power’s healing require?

Zealot Cavalier
What are the sources for the dark and winged templates?

Engineer Machinist
The warforged body feats assume a 30-foot land speed. Do you have thoughts on how to adjust 20- or 40-foot land speeds?

Noble Dilettante
The dilettante can cast ‘cantrips or 1st-level spells’. Should this read ‘cantrips and 1st-level spells’?

Poet
Could the ‘Dilettante’ class feature be renamed? It’s a bit confusing to have it and the dilettante archetype.

Sage Occultist
Balancing aberrations by HD is a bit hard – some low CR monsters have enormous HD … what about giving a set list? Or doing it by CR instead?

Sage
The title of this class hasn’t been bolded.

Sage Polyglot
The power of this archetype changes dramatically depending on how many sources of power word you have, from 0 with the core rules to 6 (by my count).
It also uses the phrase ‘spell level’; but spells don’t have a fixed level – a spell might be 1st level for wizards and 2nd level for druids, for example.

Scoundrel Cutthroat
The scoundrel cutthroat has full sneak attack progression and swordsage manoeuvres (the best Sublime class in terms of manoeuvres). That seems more powerful than most other class options.

Black Mage Demonologist
Is it deliberate that demonhide, a 2nd-level blackguard spell, is 1st-level? I don’t know the spell, so maybe it does work well at 1st-level.

Black Mage Void Cultist
What exactly does the Greater Power mean when it talks about subsisting on the void? Is that only if the void cultist is in a vacuum?

Green Mage Elementalist
Maybe another good ability for this archetype would be that they can speak all elemental languages, or at least that they can speak the language of their elemental companion. A green mage elementalist without that language cannot acquire an elemental companion (according to Complete Mage).

Wording Change for Spellcasters
Perhaps instead of “He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells”, “He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spell slots”?

That makes it clear what is being refreshed.

---

Hope this helps!

[Gnorman]

Sanglorian, let me preface your entire post that after a good amount of thought regarding OGC, OGL, and the legality of the intellectual property involved, et cetera, I have tentatively decided to convert the whole shebang to Pathfinder rules, as I find their OGC declaration to be significantly more forgiving for non-commercial work.

As such, I have removed the OGL declaration until such time as I can confidently state that I have no violating content. Ergo, before I can release my work to be adapted and shared, I have some work to do, especially with the magical classes. While I am reasonably sure that I have not actually included any offending content (such as spell descriptions), the fact remains that many spells in the mages' lists come from non-OGL sources, and I'd like to rid myself of them to remain on the safe side. If someone with more experience than me has reason to believe this is an unnecessary step, please let me know via private message.

Long story short: some of your observations may be made moot by the change to the Pathfinder ruleset, but I will address each one below.


I've given all of the classes a couple of reads through and I have a few thoughts and suggestions.

Rearranging Archetype Powers
On the class tables, why not list the features as "Archetype, Archetype (Lesser Power), Archetype (Moderate Power), Archetype (Greater Power)"? Then under class features you could have one entry for the archetype explaining that the lesser power is granted at 2nd level, the moderate at 4th and the greater at 6th.

The reason I suggest this is that each time I read the class features, I go to read "Lesser Archetype Power" and its two relatives, even though it's unnecessary information. I'd like to be able to skip a whole chunk and then read through the relevant features.

Other than the vast amount of tedium involved in changing each table and layout, this is a valid point. So it's basically a valid point.

Don’t Choose an Archetype Until 2nd Level
Another thought I had was to push back archetype selection to second level. For combat and skilled classes this will have no effect; the magical and psionic classes will have to wait one level to get extra 1st-level spells and powers.

The reason I suggest this is that every time my friends and I generated D&D characters, we got distracted by each and every choice. It would be much simpler to say: “here are the 20 classes you have to choose from” than “here are the 100 plus archetypes you have to choose from”.

Of course, players would still be free to plan the archetype they desire for next level, but it also leaves them free to choose a different archetype if it makes sense in play (a green mage befriends a snake) or if they think it will be more fun.

I like this idea quite a bit, actually - it gives the player one level to settle in to their class and its abilities before committing themselves to a particular archetype.

Aspirant’s Martial Training
Should the aspirant have martial training listed at 5th level too in the class table, since he gets a bonus feat there as well?

Oversight on my part - will fix.

Brawler Martial Artist Weapons
The martial artist is able to use monk weapons as if they were unarmed attacks. The monk is proficient with crossbows, javelins and slings. Is it your intention that they be able to use these weapons for Fight Harder and Smarter and the other features? (I think this could be cool, but it’s worth spelling out if it is the case or ruling out if it's not the case).

I had only intended this to work with melee weapons, and will say so in the entry.

Brawler Ravager
The Moderate Archetype Power mentions ‘barbarian of his own class level’. However, whirling frenzy doesn’t change by level.

Will fix.

Expanding the Hunter
Have you considered expanding the hunter’s features to make them more melee friendly? I can imagine an axe-wielding beastmaster, for example, but in your rules he or she wouldn’t even be able to use penetration, let alone the other hunter features.

I will consider removing the "piercing" requirement for Penetration, allowing him to bypass damage reduction with any one-handed weapon. The other abilities don't lend themselves well to melee combat at all - was there something in particular you were referring to here besides Penetration? I do intend to keep the hunter's focus on ranged combat.

Hunter Beastmaster
What action does the Lesser Archetype Power’s healing require?

Full-round action.

Zealot Cavalier
What are the sources for the dark and winged templates?

Tome of Magic and Savage Species, respectively.

Engineer Machinist
The warforged body feats assume a 30-foot land speed. Do you have thoughts on how to adjust 20- or 40-foot land speeds?

Standard movement speed penalties for wearing medium/heavy armor, most likely. 15/30, I believe?

Noble Dilettante
The dilettante can cast ‘cantrips or 1st-level spells’. Should this read ‘cantrips and 1st-level spells’?

Meant that as an inclusive or, but I can attempt to clarify.

Poet
Could the ‘Dilettante’ class feature be renamed? It’s a bit confusing to have it and the dilettante archetype.

Sure. The poet's ability can be changed to something like "Eye of Newt, Toe of Frog" - almost all the poet's ability names are Shakespearean phrases for obviously schmaltzy reasons.

Sage Occultist
Balancing aberrations by HD is a bit hard – some low CR monsters have enormous HD … what about giving a set list? Or doing it by CR instead?

I have been toying with revamping the sage altogether. The occultist, tactician, and polyglot in particular all need work. If I make the conversation to Pathfinder, the sage class will likely be all but invalidated, as he's been sort of a go-to class for weird 3.5 subsystems.

Sage
The title of this class hasn’t been bolded.

Just double-checked this - it has been bolded on both the individual thread and this one, at least that I can tell.

Sage Polyglot
The power of this archetype changes dramatically depending on how many sources of power word you have, from 0 with the core rules to 6 (by my count).
It also uses the phrase ‘spell level’; but spells don’t have a fixed level – a spell might be 1st level for wizards and 2nd level for druids, for example.

As mentioned before, polyglot is going to be see some major changes - I will either be expanding its "spell" list to include runes, sigils, symbols, and glyphs, or completely revamping it. As it stands, it's basically inoperable in core, and I'm not proud of that.

Scoundrel Cutthroat
The scoundrel cutthroat has full sneak attack progression and swordsage manoeuvres (the best Sublime class in terms of manoeuvres). That seems more powerful than most other class options.

Ehhh... yes, yes, this is valid. Since it is the only class with medium BAB to receive maneuver progression archetype, it is likely only fair that it sees a small reduction in ability. Will likely change to an initiator of two-thirds his own level.

Black Mage Demonologist
Is it deliberate that demonhide, a 2nd-level blackguard spell, is 1st-level? I don’t know the spell, so maybe it does work well at 1st-level.

It offers a small amount of damage reduction for a short amount of time. My decision was based on the fact that a more level-appropriate spell from Fiendish Codex I, Demonflesh, felt woefully underpowered. But considering that it's a level 1 spell... I guess it should be. This is probably a case of me being not quite as objective as I should be about my personal favorite style of play (I'm a Malconvoker geek). Demonflesh is more appropriate; it has been changed.

Black Mage Void Cultist
What exactly does the Greater Power mean when it talks about subsisting on the void? Is that only if the void cultist is in a vacuum?

That's... kind of my fluffy way of putting it, but yeah. Any environment with no atmosphere, essentially. Perhaps changing it to "a void cultist no longer needs to eat, drink, or breathe" would be better? It's not a particularly overpowered ability (warforged are the same way right out the gate), so I think it will be fine.

Green Mage Elementalist
Maybe another good ability for this archetype would be that they can speak all elemental languages, or at least that they can speak the language of their elemental companion. A green mage elementalist without that language cannot acquire an elemental companion (according to Complete Mage).

Fair point. Elementalists will gain Aquan, Auran, and Terran as bonus languages at 2nd level, to ensure that they qualify for their own ability.

Wording Change for Spellcasters
Perhaps instead of “He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells”, “He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spell slots”?

That makes it clear what is being refreshed.

Fair point.

---

Hope this helps!

You're a literalist and a rules lawyer after my own heart (I mean both of those as compliments - your attention to detail is very helpful), and I appreciate the input on both the large-scale design issues and the editing minutiae.

[Noctis Vigil]

I will be sad if this goes to PF and gets changed as a result (I'm strictly a 3.5er). I greatly enjoy the classes as they are at present, and was hoping to use this at some point in my group.

[Sanglorian]

Sanglorian, let me preface your entire post that after a good amount of thought regarding OGC, OGL, and the legality of the intellectual property involved, et cetera, I have tentatively decided to convert the whole shebang to Pathfinder rules, as I find their OGC declaration to be significantly more forgiving for non-commercial work.

I've been thinking about changing the E6 classes so that they only use OGC as well. You wouldn't need to convert them to PF to do so. However, since the Pathfinder SRD is the only large source of OGC 3.5 spells that I know of, it might be worth using PF spells even if you don't convert the classes themselves over to PF.

I'll send the work I've been doing on this front to you in a PM; you can make use of it or not as you wish :)

Your responses were good and measured; I only have a few additions to make.

I will consider removing the "piercing" requirement for Penetration, allowing him to bypass damage reduction with any one-handed weapon. The other abilities don't lend themselves well to melee combat at all - was there something in particular you were referring to here besides Penetration? I do intend to keep the hunter's focus on ranged combat.

If the plan is to keep the hunter focused on ranged combat, there aren't any changes I would make, other than removing the piercing requirement for penetration.

Sage not being bold

I took another look and you're right, it's bold! Sorry about that. What confused me is that the underline under it and the Engineer isn't bolded along with the text. Maybe I've clicked on those links and so they appear differently to me?

Void Cultist

I think giving them the ability to live without eating, drinking or breathing anywhere is flavourful and more compelling, yeah :)


You're a literalist and a rules lawyer after my own heart (I mean both of those as compliments - your attention to detail is very helpful), and I appreciate the input on both the large-scale design issues and the editing minutiae.

Thank you!

[Surrealistik]

So Gnorm, any feedback on the retooling of the minion ability?

[Gnorman]

So Gnorm, any feedback on the retooling of the minion ability?

Will input as soon as possible.

[Eldest]

I would recommend keeping a 3.5 version saved somewhere, if not on the forum. I do like the idea to shift to PF, I haven't been able to play any of your Mages since I don't have access to any books, only the SRD.

[stack]

How would the shift affect the TOB archetypes? I would hate to lose the chance for a jotun kensai dual-wielding kusari-gamas for grappling insanity. i do like PF though.

Can't wait to see the rest of the races.

[SpaceBadger]

Sanglorian, let me preface your entire post that after a good amount of thought regarding OGC, OGL, and the legality of the intellectual property involved, et cetera, I have tentatively decided to convert the whole shebang to Pathfinder rules, as I find their OGC declaration to be significantly more forgiving for non-commercial work.

Cool! That will also let us try out a bunch of your stuff that we couldn't use before, because we don't have all of those books. Hooray for Pathfinder SRD online!

[ZeltArruin]

How would the shift affect the TOB archetypes?

I share this concern, too.

[Eldest]

How would the shift affect the TOB archetypes?

Maybe have each class with ToB content use only homebrewed disciplines, and have a recovery method written into the archetype description?

[Gnorman]

How about a compromise: this version will stay as-is (with some paring down of non-core content for ease of access), and I will make another version, adapted to PF rules (that will draw 100% from PFSRD accessible content). Having cake, eating it too, et cetera.

[Eldest]

I like this plan. I also like cake.

[SpaceBadger]

How about a compromise: this version will stay as-is (with some paring down of non-core content for ease of access), and I will make another version, adapted to PF rules (that will draw 100% from PFSRD accessible content). Having cake, eating it too, et cetera.

You, sir, rock.

[Curious]

I approve greatly. This is great work, and I hope to use it in a PF campaign someday. Thanks!

[Noctis Vigil]

How about a compromise: this version will stay as-is (with some paring down of non-core content for ease of access), and I will make another version, adapted to PF rules (that will draw 100% from PFSRD accessible content). Having cake, eating it too, et cetera.

You, sir, are amazing. Thank you.

[Gnorman]

Spent some time with the Green Mage today. His shapeshifting ability is now based on Wildshape and therefore does not require PHBII. In return for having unlimited use of it starting at level one, he is A.) not healed upon shifting, B.) cannot cast spells while shifted (and Natural Spell does him no good), and C.) has limited access to forms - only the Wildling may access Large or dire forms, and only the Ophidian can shift into a dinosaur. I am hoping this is a fair trade for early access and the ability to shift from form to form basically at will. The Elementalist gains the ability to shift into elemental forms at 6th level, and the Ophidian had his abilities shifted around because "turtles and lizards won't attack you, and maybe lizardfolk won't kill you on sight" is a stupid capstone ability and "all of your natural attacks now drip with deadly poison" is not.

[Abemad]

This stuff is just great! I've been working on a document with all your work so far (including the disciplines you've linked to), and I was wondering if there is anything in particular you want written on the first page? (auther, ogl license, contributors etc).
I'm trying to make the document in the same style as wotc works, but without the artwork (two colums standard, three colums in the contentlist and maneuver descriptions).

[Eldest]

Could you post a link to all the races you have done, or the second massive thread if you made it yet?

[Curious]

Shapeshifting: A Green Mage gains the wild shape ability of a druid of his level, with the following changes: he may do so an unlimited number of times per day, even at level one. He is not healed upon shifting. Shifting into an alternate form requires a swift action and may only be done once per round. He may not choose dire animals or dinosaurs. He may never cast spells when in an alternate form. This ability does not qualify him for feats that require wild shape, nor may he use it to fuel abilities that require the expenditure of a use of wild shape.

A few things, if you are adapting this to Pathfinder.
1: You should change the wording from 'A Green Mage gains the wild shape ability of a druid of his level', to 'A Green Mage gains the Wild Shape ability as the druid class feature'. Because technically, a druid of the Green Mage's level can't use wildshape.
2: Pathfinder changed the levels at which larger forms are gained; you gain wildshape at level 4 as druid, and can access large forms at level 6. You may wish to change the Wildling's abilities accordingly, perhaps giving them access to huge animal forms.

Hope that helps.

[Eldest]

This is the 3.5 version he's simplifying for less out-of-SRD stuff, the PF stuff is probably going to follow later.

[Gnorman]

Could you post a link to all the races you have done, or the second massive thread if you made it yet?

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231153)

[ZeltArruin]

Question: All the archetypes that use Tome of Battle only talk about maneuvers, does that mean they don't get stances?

[Gnorman]

Question: All the archetypes that use Tome of Battle only talk about maneuvers, does that mean they don't get stances?

They are intended to receive stances. I will change the wording to clarify that point.

[Eldest]

Thanks. I'll try writing some of the epic destinies for a few classes, starting with the Commoner for fun.

Ordinary Hero (Optional Epic Destiny
Prerequisites: 6th-level Commoner, twenty "epic" feats
Benefits: At the DM's discretion, a Commoner character that has reached epic status may gain this ability. The Commoner gains an ability, depending on which archetype he is.
If he is an Adept, he is able to cast one additional third-level spell per day, and gains a +1 to Caster Level.
If he is an Expert, he gains the ability to declare, once per day, that a skill check involving a skill he selected as part of his second level archetype power is a natural 20. This declaration must be made before the skill check would be rolled.
If he is a Warrior, he gains the ability to use, once per day, a third-level or lower maneuver. To prepare his maneuver, the Warrior must rest for eight hours, and then practice for one hour. At the end of that one hour, the Warrior selects which maneuver to have prepared, ignoring prerequisites. The Warrior's Initiator level is equal to his Commoner level.

[Gnorman]

Thanks. I'll try writing some of the epic destinies for a few classes, starting with the Commoner for fun.

Ordinary Hero (Optional Epic Destiny
Prerequisites: 6th-level Commoner, twenty "epic" feats
Benefits: At the DM's discretion, a Commoner character that has reached epic status may gain this ability. The Commoner gains an ability, depending on which archetype he is.
If he is an Adept, he is able to cast one additional third-level spell per day, and gains a +1 to Caster Level.
If he is an Expert, he gains the ability to declare, once per day, that a skill check involving a skill he selected as part of his second level archetype power, succeeds. This declaration must be made before the skill check would be rolled.
If he is a Warrior, he gains the ability to use, once per day, a third-level or lower maneuver. To prepare his maneuver, the Warrior must rest for eight hours, and then practice for one hour. At the end of that one hour, the Warrior selects which maneuver to have prepared, ignoring prerequisites. The Warrior's Initiator level is equal to his Commoner level.

I like the idea, but I can see the ability to auto-succeed on skill checks as potentially abusable. Perhaps just the ability to treat the roll as a twenty?

[Eldest]

True. Epic skills would not a be a good thing in E6. Changed it.

[Gnorman]

True. Epic skills would not a be a good thing in E6. Changed it.

E6 Expert: fitting through extremely tiny holes, walking on clouds, and ignoring terminal velocity since 2012.

[Timeless Error]

I've been following this with curiosity for some time, but I only just decided to sit down and actually read it today. I was amazed at the quality of your work on this project, and now I'm itching to try it out.

A few miscellaneous questions:


If I remember correctly, you said at some point earlier on that you're eventually going to make a feat thread. Will it contain new feats for this system, or will you be reupholstering and rebalancing existing feats?

When you mention level, like in "a gallant gains the ability to initiate maneuvers as a crusader of his level," or "a gladiator gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls with that weapon equal to half his level," do you mean character level or class level? I'm guessing class level, but you never know. (I realize that the system isn't really intended for multiclassing, but I'd like a clarification anyway.)

(Somewhat off-topic) You always manage to find perfect pictures to match each of your concepts, whereas I can never find a good image that fits any of my homebrew. How do you manage it?

[Gnorman]

I've been following this with curiosity for some time, but I only just decided to sit down and actually read it today. I was amazed at the quality of your work on this project, and now I'm itching to try it out.

A few miscellaneous questions:


If I remember correctly, you said at some point earlier on that you're eventually going to make a feat thread. Will it contain new feats for this system, or will you be reupholstering and rebalancing existing feats?

It will be mostly new feats, with a few I've been itching to redo (Weapon Finesse comes to mind).


When you mention level, like in "a gallant gains the ability to initiate maneuvers as a crusader of his level," or "a gladiator gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls with that weapon equal to half his level," do you mean character level or class level? I'm guessing class level, but you never know. (I realize that the system isn't really intended for multiclassing, but I'd like a clarification anyway.)

Class level, you're right.


(Somewhat off-topic) You always manage to find perfect pictures to match each of your concepts, whereas I can never find a good image that fits any of my homebrew. How do you manage it?

An inordinate amount of time on Google image search and a lot of luck.



Hope that helps.

[Roc Ness]

I've been following this with curiosity for some time, but I only just decided to sit down and actually read it today. I was amazed at the quality of your work on this project, and now I'm itching to try it out.

I find myself in the same boat. Originally, when I first glanced at this thread, only some of the melee classes were present, and I overlooked it. After returning from a long hiatus, curiosity convinced me to take a second look at this work, just to see why the originally small thread now spans countless pages... and I am winded by the sheer depth and quality of the work.

To Gnorman, Congratulations, is all I can say now, at this stage. :smallsmile:

I look forward to giving these classes a spin, and I think, time and yourself allowing, I may contribute a few archetypes too.

[stack]

Have you considered an initiator archetype for the red mage? I thought this homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12618180#) had some excellent ideas that could be adapted.

If you like the idea I could give it a shot. Or you can, since its your project and you are rather good at it.

[Timeless Error]

Hope that helps.

It does, thanks. *Wanders off to start experimenting and creating characters*

[Gnorman]

I find myself in the same boat. Originally, when I first glanced at this thread, only some of the melee classes were present, and I overlooked it. After returning from a long hiatus, curiosity convinced me to take a second look at this work, just to see why the originally small thread now spans countless pages... and I am winded by the sheer depth and quality of the work.

To Gnorman, Congratulations, is all I can say now, at this stage. :smallsmile:

I look forward to giving these classes a spin, and I think, time and yourself allowing, I may contribute a few archetypes too.

Why, thank you very much.


Have you considered an initiator archetype for the red mage? I thought this homebrew had some excellent ideas that could be adapted.

If you like the idea I could give it a shot. Or you can, since its your project and you are rather good at it.

Personally, I think giving maneuvers, no matter how limited in progression, to a full caster would be beyond the power level I'm trying to maintain. I'd love to see your take on it, though - I just think it would be a bit over the top.

[stack]

Very true. Be a better fit for a partial caster, I suppose. Oh well, with the initiator portions of the compendium in flux given the OGL issues, maybe I'll just let the idea lie for now. Probably would call for an entire class to balance it properly.

[Macrovore]

I was wondering, for the Sniper archetype for the hunter, what exactly constitutes "completely unaware of his presence?" Is it something that can be attempted in combat while invisible or hidden (total cover/concealment), or can it just be a successful hide check?

Also, how does the Innovator archetype for the Engineer combine the persistent weapons (revolver, pneumatic fist) with other inventions? Can he make a repeater that fires healing rounds? or a pneumatic fist that releases sleeping gas? if so, do the inventions that were meant to be one-shot effects become constant, at-will effects?

[ZeltArruin]

Brute
Lesser Archetype Power: stuff...is no longer encumbered or slowed by medium armor.

Would the brute also be unencumbered by light armor? Obviously he wouldn't be slowed.

[SpaceBadger]

Working on my own E6 remixes of standard PF classes plus a few new classes, I have been stealing copying inspired by your system of differentiating archetypes by the Lesser/Moderate/Greater archetype powers.

How do you see these working with multiclassing?

If someone take three levels of Peltast and three levels of Deadeye (just picking at random), they end up with only two Lesser Archetype Powers, no Moderate or Greater powers. Right? Is there any way they can ever gain the Moderate or Greater powers for those archetypes?

What if they multiclass different archetypes within a class, is that allowed? Say two levels of Brawler/Bruiser, followed by four levels of Brawler/MartialArtist? How would you figure their archetype powers?

I was also thinking about some kind of Epic feats (or whatever you call feats that require level 6+) that would let you bring up your archetype powers if you had less than Moderate/Greater in some archetype due to multiclassing.

[Timeless Error]

Working on my own E6 remixes of standard PF classes plus a few new classes, I have been stealing copying inspired by your system of differentiating archetypes by the Lesser/Moderate/Greater archetype powers.

How do you see these working with multiclassing?

If someone take three levels of Peltast and three levels of Deadeye (just picking at random), they end up with only two Lesser Archetype Powers, no Moderate or Greater powers. Right? Is there any way they can ever gain the Moderate or Greater powers for those archetypes?

What if they multiclass different archetypes within a class, is that allowed? Say two levels of Brawler/Bruiser, followed by four levels of Brawler/MartialArtist? How would you figure their archetype powers?

I was also thinking about some kind of Epic feats (or whatever you call feats that require level 6+) that would let you bring up your archetype powers if you had less than Moderate/Greater in some archetype due to multiclassing.

There are a few feats (mostly unofficial, but a few written by Gnorman himself) I've seen in this thread that might help with that:


Myriad-Concept Synthesis
You have managed to synergize the abilities of many disparate methods of training, resulting in AWESOME.
Benefits: When determining what archetype abilities you have from each of your archetypes, add 1/2 your levels in other classes to each of your classes.
[...]
Marked Pose of Duality
You have great ability; you might not be able to stay sane with that great ability, but you have it, at least.
Prerequisites: Must be about to take your first level in a class.
Benefits: Select a class; when you gain the Archetype feature for that class, you may select two Archetypes. You can swap between which of these archetypes is active at will, in a process that takes 1 minute; any daily ability that is expended in one archetype stays expended until you rest for 8 hours.
If an archetype grants bonus spells, and your class requires you to prepare your spells, your prepared archetype bonus spells are replaced by those of your other archetype that are of the same level. If your archetype allows you to prepare an additional Invention of a given type, you must replace that bonus Invention with the one specified in your other Archetype.
Special: This process is not without danger to your mind and body; each time that you use this feat, you are Fatigued for one hour; if you use this feat while Fatigued, you are instead Exhausted for an hour, and if Exhausted, you become Unconscious for an hour. If you happen to be immune to Fatigue or Exhaustion, you instead take an amount of damage equal to your character level times the number of times you have used the feat in the last hour.
[...]


Open-Minded
Prerequisites: Can only be taken at first level, or the level at which you take a new class.
Benefit: When selecting the archetype for your class, you may instead select an archetype from any class. Benefits advancing class abilities that you do not have do not give you any benefit. (For example, expanded spells known do not grant a non-spellcasting character the ability to cast those spells, and Juggernaut archetypes that grant you benefits when using Interception instead grant you no benefit, unless you have access to the interception power from another class. However, benefits that give you access to a class feature (such as the Warlock archetypes granting access to an invocation) can be used.) Benefits are not gained until you are granted the corresponding feature from your own class; for example, a character selecting an archetype that grants a capstone spell-like ability does not gain that ability at 6th level unless his own class gives him that benefit.

Or...


Unorthodox Training
Your training was a little... different.
Benefit: Select a Class; your choice of Archetypes for that class expands to include all classes within that "power group" (Skillful, Psionic, and so on.)
Special: This feat must be taken at 1st level.


Extracurricular Activities
Prerequisites: Character level 6
Benefit: Choose one archetype for your class that you did not choose to be your original archetype. You gain that archetype's Lesser Archetype Ability.

Vocational Training
Prerequisites: Character level 6, Extracurricular Activities
Benefit: You gain the Moderate Archetype Ability of the archetype you chose with Extracurricular Activities.

A New Career
Prerequisites: Character level 6, Vocational Training
Benefit: You gain the Greater Archetype Ability of the archetype you chose with Extracurricular Activities.

[SpaceBadger]

Thanks for the info, Timeless Error.

[Gnorman]

Agreed, thanks for delving through the backlog for those. I will be including those in the feat thread once I start that up - that's next on the docket after races (though to be honest, the races might take me a while).

[SpaceBadger]

I like these feats you have here, and I think they eliminate any need or incentive to multiclass different archetypes within a class, because you can get the archetype powers in a more appropriate way with the Extracurricular/Vocational/Career feats.

[Amechra]

Open-Minded and Unorthodox Training can be combined in an awesome way; you grab your first Archetype through Open-Minded, and then you use the Extracurricular/Vocational/Career feats to grab the Archetype you added to your class through Unorthodox Training.

[Amechra]

Server Hijinx Duplicated This; Fairly Sorry.

[Surrealistik]

So, any word on that minion fix yet? :smalltongue:

[Gnorman]

So, any word on that minion fix yet? :smalltongue:

And here I thought I'd done so already. I did, but not in the megathread. Will fix.

[Sanglorian]

What did you think of the spell suggestions for the Pathfinder conversion that i PMed you, Gnorman? :smallsmile:

[Gnorman]

What did you think of the spell suggestions for the Pathfinder conversion that i PMed you, Gnorman? :smallsmile:

Read them, loved them, will make very good use of them when I get around to the PF conversion. Thanks a bunch.

[Gnorman]

Sorry for the delays, people - I've been applying to grad school and that has been eating up my time.

Do plan on continuing the races and debuting my own version of the prestige class, which will be two levels long and should only be accessible during "epic" play.

[D-naras]

I am about to start a campaign using your classes in my homebrew setting, using my own races. I love your work and it gave me the inspiration to create my own magic class that fits in my setting. So here it is:


The Perfect Mage

HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge(religion), Intimidate, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 2 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2|3

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Spellcasting, Archetype, Spellshifting|5|4|-|-

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Lesser Archetype Power|6|5|-|-

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Arcane Knowledge|6|6|3|-

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Moderate Archetype Power|6|6|4|-

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Arcane Sight|6|6|5|3

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Greater Archetype Power, Capstone SLA|6|6|6|4[/table]

Class Abilities:

Proficiencies: The perfect mage is profficient with light armor and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane spell failure chance in light armor.

Spellcasting: The perfect mage casts arcane spells from they sorcerer/wizard list. The mage need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the perfect mage must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Spells known: The perfect mage starts with 3 plus his charisma modifier in 1st and 0 level spells known. Whenever he gains a level, he adds 3 more spells to his spells known list. These spells may be of any level that the perfect mage can cast. So a 2nd level mage gaining his 3rd level could learn 3 second level spells or 2 first level and 1 second level.

Archetype: At 1st level, the perfect mage chooses an archetype from the following list, each of which conveys a certain set of advantages and abilities. Once chosen, this cannot be changed or reversed. Each archetype has a Lesser power, a Moderate power, a Greater power, and a Capstone SLA associated with it, which the perfect mage receives at the levels noted above.

Spellshift: The perfect mage can use any kind of magic at a cost. As a full-round action, the mage may spend two spell slots of any first or higher level and cast any spell from the black, blue, green, red or white mage's list of the same level as the highest spell slot expended this way. The two slots expended need not be the same level. For example a 3rd level perfect mage could expend a first and second level slot to cast a 2nd level black mage spell not on his list of spells known.

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, the perfect mage gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Arcane Knowledge: At 3rd level, the perfect mage gains an untyped +2 to Spellcraft which goes to +4 when identifying spells.

Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, the perfect mage gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Arcane Sight: At 5th level, the perfect mage can use arcane sight at will.

Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, the perfect mage gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Capstone SLA: At 6th level, the perfect mage gains the ability to cast a particular spell as an SLA 1/day, as appropriate for his archetype. His caster level is equal to his hit dice, and the DC of the spell, if applicable, is equal to 10 + 1/2 his hit dice + his Charisma modifier.


Archetypes:

Specialist

Capstone SLA: special *see greater archetype power.

Lesser Archetype Power: The specialist chooses a spell that he knows to specialise in. He can use that spell as a spell-like ability 3 times a day. This spell-like ability has a caster level equal to his hit dice plus 1 and gains a +1 bonus to its save DC if applicable. Everytime the mage gains a level he may change his specialised spell.
Moderate Archetype Power: The specialist may use his lesser archetype power an additional time per day. Also he adds +1 to its caster level for each time he has used this spell like ability during the day.
Greater Archetype Power: The specialist may use his lesser archetype power an additional time per day, to a total of 5. Furthermore, he can change his specialised spell by meditating for 24 hours. He may also once per day, apply any of the following metamagic feats to his specialised spell as long as the total level of the spell doesnt exceed 5 after all metamagic: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Widen Spell.


Universalist

Capstone SLA: special *see greater archetype power

Lesser Archetype Power: The universalist may expend 0 level spells when he spellshifts.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever the universalist casts a spell, if each the first time he casts that spell during the day, he gains +1 caster level and +1 to it's save DC if applicable.
Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, as a standard action, a universalist may expend a spell slot of each level to use a Capstone SLA from one of the Black, Blue, Green, Red or White mage's archetypes.


Wild Mage

Capstone SLA:

Lesser Archetype Power: The wild mage may choose to take -2 penalty to his caster level, but add +1d3 bonus to his caster level whenever he casts a spell. He may also ellect to take 5 non-lethal damage to reduce the penalty by 1. He makes the choice after rolling for the bonus and the mage must be vulnerable to non-lethal damage. As long as this non-lethal damage persists, the wild mage is fatigued.
Moderate Archetype Power: The wild mage may choose to increase the penalty to -4 and if he does he can add +1d6 bonus to his castel level. Furthermore, he may now reduce the penalty by 1 for each 4 non-lethal damage he elects to take.
Greater Archetype Power: The wild mage may choose to increase the penalty to -6 and if he does he can add +1d8 bonus to his castel level. Furthermore, he may now reduce the penalty by 1 for each 3 non-lethal damage he elects to take.


Sorcerer

Capstone SLA: Ruin Delver's Fortune

Lesser Archetype Power: The sorcerer may learn spells from any base class's spell list including divine casters.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever the sorcerer spellshifts he may use that spell for the rest of the day using his normal spell slots.
Greater Archetype Power: The sorcerer may spellshift from any base class's spell list including divine casters.


Wizard

Capstone SLA: Mnemonic Enhancer

Lesser Archetype Power: The wizard gains a spell book like the wizards class feature. Whenever a wizard learns a spell he must scribe it in his spellbook normaly. The wizard begins at level 1 with his spellbook. This is an exception to the archetype rules. When the wizard reaches 2nd level, he adds all 0 level sorcerer/wizard spells to his spellbook and may add new spells to his spellbook from other spellbooks or scrolls following the normal rules for adding spells to a wizard's spellbook.
Moderate Archetype Power: The wizard can scribe scrolls and brew potions in half the normal time. He may also create 3 magic items per day instead of 1. He still needs the same gp and xp for each item but only half the time(minimum 4 hours).
Greater Archetype Power: The wizard may now craft any magic items at half the time, and also recharge wands. By expending 1 spell slot of the same level as the stored spell, he can add 1 charge to a wand.

I was going for a more customizable, general mage type. As you can see its not finished. Its missing some capstone SLAs. I would appreciate input!

[Eldest]

That is a very strong caster. Not because of the class ability, though those are nice, but being able to pick your spells is very big. The wizard archetype, similarly, is huge. As written, it can cast any spell it knows (is in it's spellbook) spontaneously. Maybe allow it more spells know, and the abillity to rewrite it's spells know, but don't allow an unlimited number of spells known. Actually, one way to do that is to just say it can have one spellbook, can write over spells, and has a finite number of pages.
Also, the Wild Mage's abilities are kind of boring, in that they are just numerical bonuses. And the Specialist's greater archetype is incorrect, as it would only have 5 uses of that spell as a SLA. Which is slightly strong, as that means the Universalist can cast 10 or so 3rd level spells a day, 5 of which are the specialist spell. Just pick a good, general use spell for that and you're golden for the day.
None of this means the class is bad, in any way; it's just stronger than the other casters. If you want (more) ideas to scale it back, just say so.

[D-naras]

These are all valid points. I still want the players to be able to choose their known spells. How about having them choose 3 spells from each school at every spell level known? 3 abjuration, 3 conjuration and so forth. And then have the wizard be able to switch his spells by overwriting his spellbook?

About the specialist, what if they remove their chosen spell from their spells known list? That way they can only cast it from their SLA uses, so a max of 5 times, one of each is metamagiced for free.

Finally regarding the wild mage, maybe change the moderate power to healing you of 5 non-lethal damage per lvl of the spell cast if you roll a 3 and regain the spell slot? And how is this for a greater power:
A wild mage gains a small ammount of spell immunity to enemy spells and has a small chance to cast a spell beyond anyones skill. He has 20% chance to not be affected by enemy spells that offer spell resistance, and whenever he casts a spell there is a 10% chance it will be another spell based on the school of the spell cast. Abjuration: Repulsion, Conjuration: Teleport, Divination: Contact other plane, Enchantment: Dominate Person or Hold Monster, Evocation: Cone of Cold, Illusion: Mirage Arcana, Necromancy: Eyebite, Transmutation: Dissintegrate or Polymorph. The mage makes the choice whenever there is more than one spell available, and chooses all targets like he was casting the spell normaly. The caster level for these spells is 12.

[Gnorman]

I'm afraid I can't comment on the Perfect Mage, other than to say that it certainly does what you intended it to do. It's beyond my balance point so I think it would be counterproductive for me to attempt to analyze it in that respect.

Anyway. I am still bogged down by grad school applications but may have some free time in the next week to work on finishing out my "core" races (Cambion, Nephilim, Jotun, Primeval, Colossus, and Changeling) and begin work on my proposed two-level prestige classes. They would be significant gamechangers, mind you, and potentially open up fifth-level spells (albeit still quite rarely).

Here's a smattering of the ideas I have worked on so far, at this point only for magic classes:

The Gold Mage: though does not progress to higher level spells, does gain the ability to cast from multiple spell lists. I would not be adhering to M:tG's concept of "allied" colors on this one, so a Black Mage could learn to cast from the White Mage's list with no penalty or difficulty. Possibly some form of Advanced Learning.

The Archmage: gains fifth-level spells as SLAs, pure and simple. May cast fourth-level SLAs more frequently.

The Summoner: a "pet class," for lack of better terminology. Blue Mages might command golems or aberrations, Black Mages demons, vermin, and the undead, Green Mages animals, plants, fey, and "natural" creatures, Red Mages dragons, elementals or giants, White Mages angels or stereotypically "good" creatures (I am trying to avoid alignment pigeonholing, but some mages lend themselves to certain creatures more naturally than others).

The Theurgist: gains increased endurance, more spell slots, potentially the ability to cast lower level spells as at-will SLAs.

[Grimsage Matt]

I'm a fan of this post, and was working on some archtypes for the warlock.

The Gravebound(Undead)

Bonus inncovation; The Dead Walk.

Lesser Archtype Power; Negative energy deals half damage and postive energy heals for half. They also Gain Light forifcation.

Moderate Archtype power; They can convert their Eldrich blast into negative energy (Counts as a blast essence). As they continue to become more like the undead, Negative energy deals only the minium amount of damage and positive energy heals the minimum. They also gain moderate forifcation.

Greater Archtype power; The warlocks type changes to Undead, with the Unliving and Darkminded subtypes. They can use The Dead walk to create the Vampires, Ghouls and Swordwraiths from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(3.5e_Sourcebook), but has to use a Obsidan Coffin worth 150GP per HD of the creature to be turned as a focus, and can only be used once per night. The undead so created are free willed and not under the warlocks automattic control. They can also use their eldrich blast to deal 1 negative level by sacrficing all other damage.

Feindbound(Lowerplanes)

Bonus inccovation; Devils sight

Lesser Archtype power; The Warlock Gains the abillity to Detect evil outsiders or creatures with the Feindish template, as the Detect evil spell.
They also gain a +2 bonus to Bluff, Dipolmacy and sense motive Aginst evil outsiders.

Moderate Archtype power; If the Warlock pocesses the Truename of a evil outsider with HD no greater then the Warlocks HD+3, the warlock can try to summon it. This requires a Knowledge(The Planes) Check with a DC of 13+twice the creatures HD. The outsider called is intially uncontrolled and the warlock has to have a immeditate Diplomacy, Intimidate or Bluff check to improve the outsiders mood to at least indiffrent.. This is a calling effect and the creature expects payment. Failure on the Knowledge Check gives a -10 penalty to all further skill checks and the outsider starts at Hostile.

Greater Archtype power; They Gain Steal summoning as a Bonus inccovation, but take a -4 penalty to the check. The Bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense motive increase to +6, and now inculde all creatures.

[Wyntonian]

Moderate Archtype power; If the Warlock pocesses the Truename of a evil outsider with HD no greater then the Warlocks HD+3, the warlock can try to summon it. This requires a Knowledge(The Planes) Check with a DC of 13+twice the creatures HD. This is a calling effect and the creature expects payment.

This is kinda interesting, but I'd recommend including a clause that states that if the check fails that the evil outsider is not under the warlock's control. It seems thematically appropriate and makes the cost/benefit/risk balance a little better. Truename research isn't particularly hard, and you can apparently do it at-will, so it needs a little bit of a balancing effect.

[Grimsage Matt]

I was going it's a uncontrolled called outsider and you have to bargian just to stay alive after calling it:) Like a Planar binding without the magic circle.

[Straybow]

Hmmm, I though E6 was centered on the idea that high levels were overpowered, and all of these are vesting powers typical of 10th-20th level powers in regular d20. In fact, when I started reading this I thought these were prestige classes and confused myself searching for prerequisite powers that would indicate a minimum base class level.

[Wyntonian]

Hmmm, I though E6 was centered on the idea that high levels were overpowered, and all of these are vesting powers typical of 10th-20th level powers in regular d20. In fact, when I started reading this I thought these were prestige classes and confused myself searching for prerequisite powers that would indicate a minimum base class level.

Overpowered is relative. The issue with high levels is that the gap between casters and noncasters widens up. With this system, there's A. Less room for that to happen and B. a series of internally balanced classes that stay playable all the way up to 6th.

Also, 10th - 20th? Even if I knew where in that spectrum you were aiming (more than half of the game), I don't know what you really mean by that. Yes, these classes are stronger than PHB base classes, but they're stronger in similar ways. We have a book full of Wildshape Rangers, Beguilers, Spirit Shamans, Bards and other tier-3 classes, not a book with the monk, CW samurai, Wizard/Incantrix and Natural Spell Druid.

Think of it as a guitar. Previously, every string (class) was tuned its own way. If you're doing a one-string solo sort of thing, it could be ok. But a chord? You really need to know what you're doing to make it sound ok.

What this essentially does is retune the guitar, so all the strings match up. No, it doesn't sound like it used to, and you may not like it, but as a whole it works together more fluidly.

Yes, I overstated 3.5's balance problems (in my experience, anyway), but it helped the point get across.

[Knaight]

Hmmm, I though E6 was centered on the idea that high levels were overpowered, and all of these are vesting powers typical of 10th-20th level powers in regular d20. In fact, when I started reading this I thought these were prestige classes and confused myself searching for prerequisite powers that would indicate a minimum base class level.

E6 is centered on a different style than E20, and there are lots of reasons for this. One of them is a reduction in power, largely centered on mortality - this still has that. One of these is the caster-noncaster imbalance, that is fixed. One of them is how it prevents the system from getting as complicated as it could be, this still does this. So on and so forth, and as such, a great many people quite like it.

[Grimsage Matt]

I made some Archmage feat chains, and tried to make em balanced.

Archmage of the Black Rank I
Prerquisites; Black Mage Level 6, Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks, Knowledge(The Planes) 11 ranks, Spell Focus(Necromancy or Conjuration).
Benifits; +1 Bonus to caster level, Rebukes gain a +2 bonus to the turning check and damage, and gains a touch attack that deals 1d6+ int mod negative energy, with a fort save for half(DC=13+int mod).Archmage of the Black Rank II
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Black Rank I, CR7.
Benifits; +1 bonus to caster level, Necromacy and Conjuration spells DC's increase by 2(stacks with spell focus). They can also use thier archtypes capstone SLA 2/day.
Archmage of the Black Rank III
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Black Rank II, CR8.
Benifits; +1 bonus to caster level, and a extra benift by archtype;
Demonologist: Once per Day the Archmage of the Black can try to summon a evil outsider with HD equal or less then caster level. The Chance that it works is 50% for HD equal to caster level, and goes up by 10% for each HD less then. EX, A Demon with 9HD would be a 50% to summon, a 3 HD would be 100%.
Hexer; Can cast Greater Bestow Curse 3/day.
Necromancer; Can control a number of undead equal to their caster level times their intelligence modifer.
Pestilent; Vermin are also poisionous in additon to be carriers of disease. They gain a +5 bonus to saves aginst poison, and 3/day they can infuse their spells or weapons with a poison that's Dc cannot be greater then 18.
Void Cultist; They Gain a lesser madness arua. A 10ft arua that forces enemys to make a will save(DC 14+Int mod), or be affected by lesser confusion.
Archmage of the Black Rank IV
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Black Rank III, CR9.
Benifts; +1 bonus to caster level, +4 bonus to knowledge(Arcana, Relgion, The Planes) and spellcraft. They can use the capstone SLA's 3/day.
Archmage of the Black Rank V
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Black Rank IV, CR10
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level and a Apothosies based on Archtype.
Demonologist; Type changes to outsider(native), and can use Planar ally 1 day. Gains a +4 bonus to social skills aginst evil outsiders.
Hexer; Type changes to Fey. Can use Bestow Curse at will and can curse items. When targeted with a melee or ranged attack, the hexer can make a caster level check aginst the attack roll. If it sucesseds, the attacker is blined or deafened for 1 round/caster level.
Necromancer; Type changes to Undead(Darkmined, Unliving). Any creature you kill with a spell or spell like abillity is reanimated as a Zombie, with no upper limit on how many can be controled. Can Cast Awaken undead as a third level spell.
Pestilent; Type Changes to Magical Beast(Looks like a Vermin). Gains immunity to Poison, and a passive spiderclimb effect.
Void Cultist; Type Changes to Aberration. The Lesser madness arua is upgraded to a Arua of Voided Wisphers. 20ft arua that deals 1d6 cold damage and everything must make a Will save(DC15+Int mod) be affected by confusion. Abberations are immune.


Archmage of the Blue Rank I
Prerquisites; Blue mage level 6, Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks, Spellcraft 11 ranks, Spell focus(Illusion or Enhantment) or Improved counterspell.
Benifit; +1 bonus caster level, +2 to concentration and spellcraft checks and they can throw a small blast of magical force(1d4+int mod damage, medium range, rng touch).
Archmage of the Blue Rank II
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Blue Rank I, CR7.
Benifit; +1 bonus to caster level. Becuse Blue mages often use illusion spells, Archmages of the Blue become Adpet at seeing past them. They always get a Saving throw aginst illusions. They also Become resistent to mental infulance. They can make a saving throw aginst a enchantment effect at the beging of each of thier turn as long as it lasts. Can use their archtype capstone 2/day.
Archmage of the Blue Rank III
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Blue rank II, CR8.
Benfit; +1 bonus to caster level, and a extra benifit based on Archtype.
Chronomancer; Always knows what time it is, reguardless of planar diffrences. Can use Slow 3/day and Haste 3/day.
Hyperborean; Can lower the ambient tempreture by 10 degrees per caster level. They must be concentating as it takes effect, which occurs over a period of 1 minute per degree, and lasts for 1 minute per caster level.
Mountebank; A number of Days equal to their Int mod, They can use Dimension door as a fullround action and leave a square of soild fog where they disappered from.
Wayfarer; They can teleport half their base speed as a move action.
Weaver; Increase the Reality of the illusions by 10%. This means that even a normal illusion spell is 10% real, and shadow spells are 10% more real.
Archmage of the Blue Rank IV
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Blue rank III, CR9.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level. +2 to illusion and enchantment spells(Stacks with spell focus), +4 bonus to Knowledge(Arcana) and spellcraft. They can use their capstones 3/day.
Archmage of the Blue Rank V
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Blue Rank IV, CR10.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level and each gains a abillity based on archtype.
Chronomancer; Becomes timless(Stops physically aging, heals as normal), and can stop time for a int mod rounds/day. Gains a permenent foresight effect.
Hyperborean: Type Chanes to Elemental(Native), and gain a deflection bonus equal to their int mod(supreesed if the take fire damage equal to three times the bonus), and can make weapons from ice(As normal weapons, but deal a extra 1d6 cold).
Mountebank; Type Changes to Fey and becomes immune to discern lies, Zone of Truth or anyother magical efect that determines truth. Also gains a +10 bonus to forgery, Bluff and disguise.
Wayfarer; TYpe changes to Outsider(Native). Can teleport Base speed as a move action, and has learned to teleport across pysical space, bypassing dimenisional lock or simmilar effects that shut down teleportaion.
Weaver; The Reality of the Illusions increases by 30%(40% total). They also gain the Living spell(Illusion) Template.


Archmage of the Green Rank I
Prerquisites; Green Mage level 6, Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks, Knowledge(Nature) 11 ranks, Survival 11 ranks, Spellcraft 11 ranks, Skill focus(Knowledge{Nature}).
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, and effective HD for Shapeshift inceases by 1. They gain +2 Str, Dex and Con while shapeshifted.
Archmage of the Green Rank II
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Green Rank I, CR7.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, Constant speak with animals and plants effect. Can use Capstone SLA's 2/day. Can use LV 0 spells while shapeshifted.
Archmage of the Green Rank III
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Green Rank II, CR8.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, and a benift based on archtype.
Cloromancer; Gains a Entangling arua out to 15ft. As the entangle spell, allies are immune.
Elementalist; Can fire a Bolt that deals 2d8 of what the elemental reistence they gained. Medium range, and can be used while shapeshifted.
Ophidien; Gains a Gaze attack while shapeshifted into a reptile that acts as a hypnotisim spell. Gaze out to 30ft.
Subterranen; The Sunterrean can breathe stone so long as it's withen 20ft of air.
Wildling; While Shapeshifted their natural weapons are treated as magic and adementine.
Archmage of the Green Rank IV
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Green Rank III, CR9.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, +4 bonus to knowledge(Nature) and survvial checks and the bonuses from power of the Land incease to +2/+4. Can use Capstone SLA's 3/day. Can use 1st level spells while shifted.Archmage of the Green Rank V
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Green Rank IV, CR10.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level and a abillity based on archtype.
Cloromancer; Type Changes to Plant, can cast tree stride as a 2nd lv spell and tree shape as a 3rd lv spell. Can spend 1 hour and 50gp worth of compnets to make a assassian vine.
Elementalist; Type changes to Elemental(Native and elemental subtype of compainion.) Can use Summon Monster V as a third level spell(Elementals of the campions type only).
Ophiden; +20ft bonus to movement speeds. they fast like the snake. +2 on reflex saves.
Subterranean; When inside a section of stone or earth, they can animate it into a huge earth emelental with them inside.
Wildling; HD cap for shapeshifting is increased by 2.


Archmage of the Red Rank I
Prerquisites; Level 6 Red Mage, Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks, Spell craft 11Ranks, Spell focus(Ecovation), spell penetration.
Benifit; +1 bonus caster level, and their spells deal bonus damage equal to their int mod.
Archmage of the Red Rank II
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Red Rank I, CR7.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level. When The Archmage of the Red casts a spell, they roll a d20. If it's a 19 or 20 the spell deals double damage. They can use Capstone SLA's 2/day.
Archmage of the Red Rank III
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Red Rank II, CR8.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level. Abillity based on archtype.
Choas Child; All polymorph effects with a Range of personal are quickned. In addition, While polymorhed, the Choas Child gains Fast Healing 1.
Crimsion disiple; Can use Frightful presence(as the feat). Gains a +4 bonus to bluff and appraise checks.
Magesmith; Items created by the Magesmith are always masterwork, have 50% more hardness and Double HP.
Pyromancer; The crit range for the spells increases to 17-20 and deals triple damage.
Sand Shaper; 3/day they can use horrid wilting(Treat as a 4th level spell). They can also cast Control water(Lower water only) as a third level spell.
Archmage of the Red Rank IV
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Red Rank III, CR9.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, +4 bonus to concentration, Knowledge(Arcana, The Planes, Dunggeonering and Nature) and spellcraft checks. Can use capstone SLA's 3/day.
Archmage of the Red Rank V
Prerquisites; Archmage of the Red Rank IV, CR10.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, and a abillity based on archtype.
Choas Child; Gains the Shapechanger subtype. Can cast polymorph(6 forms only and self only) as a third level spell.
Crimsion Disiple; Type Changes to Dragon, and Gains the Fire subtype. May cast Charm Monster as a thrid level spell.
Magesmith; Enchanted items cost 1/2 as much and take 1/4 the time. Treat as having 5 more caster levels for Item creation Prerquisites.
Pyromancer; Type Changes to Elemental(Fire), and damaging spells are automatically empowered. The Crit range increases to 16-20.
Sandshaper; May create temporay creatures out of sand. These are Small air elementals and last for 5 rounds. It takes a square of sand to animate one.


Archmage of the White Rank I
Prerquisites; Level 6 White mage, Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks, Knowledge(Relgion) 11 Ranks, Heal 11 Ranks, Improved or extra turning.
Benifits; +1 bonus to caster level. Turning Gains a +2 bonus to the Turning check and damage roll. They also gain a Positive energy touch that deals 1d6+Wis mod positive energy(Will save DC11+Wis mod for half).
Archmage of the White Rank II
Prerquisites; Archmage of the White Rank I, CR7.
Benifits; +1 bonus Caster level. They gain a positive energy arua that deals 2 positive energy every round in 10ft(Will save DC12+Wis mod for half) All postive energy effects are empowered. Capstone SLA's can be used 2/day. As the positive enegry courses through them, They gain Immunity to disease and a special form of fast healing 1(Lost limbs grow back).
Archmage of the White Rank III
Prerquisites; Archmage of the White Rank II, CR8.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, and abillity based on archtype.
Champion; Can use Disrupt undead at will as a SLA. Can also turn a Weapon into either a Evil outsider or Undead Bane weapon.
Exorsist; Gains a +6 bonus to all turning and dimissal checks. The DC for dissmissal increases by 5.
Healer; Can expend a use of turn undead to grant a creature in short range fast healing 4 for 1 minute/caster level.
Mystic; Constantly Benifts from the Angles arua of protection or the Archons Arua of Menece. Once chosen, it can't be changed.
Orecle; Gains Truesight as a passive Abillity.
Archmage of the White Rank IV
Prerquisites; Archmave of the White Rank III, CR9.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level, +4 on Knowledge(Arcana, Relgion) and Heal checks. Can use Capstone SLA's 3/day. They swell with positive energy, Gaining Fast healing 3(Any abillity damage, burn or drain is healed at 1 point per minute).
Archmage of the White Rank V
Prerquisites; Archmage of the White Rank IV, CR10.
Benifits; +1 bonus caster level and their type changes to Outsider(Native), and gain a abillity based on archtype. Also gains a passive Deathward effect.
Champion; Weapon Gains the holy burst property and armor worn gains the Scared property.
Exorsist; Whenever a spell or attack deals damage to a evil outsider or possesed creature, they have to make a will save(DC14+Wis mod) or be dismissed.
Healer; The positive engery Arua is upgraded to do 6 positive energy/round. Three healers working together can use Raise Dead 1/week.
Mystic; Gains a constant Concestrated and Hollowed effect.
Orecle; Gains foresight as a passive abillity.

[Alkapwn21]

I'm loving these classes, Gnorm. About to start a game using a cannoneer (with a bastion and chronomancer.) The only complaint I have is that I couldn't decide what to play due to too many great choices haha

Looking forward to the addition of the monstrous races (an intelligent gnoll engineer seems like it would be fun =] )

[TurtleKing]

Love the Didact Sage. Makes Truenaming worthwhile. Made one for a campaign and the player making a Cleric said mine made his cry just due to Words of Nurturing.

[Gnorman]

Hmmm, I though E6 was centered on the idea that high levels were overpowered, and all of these are vesting powers typical of 10th-20th level powers in regular d20. In fact, when I started reading this I thought these were prestige classes and confused myself searching for prerequisite powers that would indicate a minimum base class level.

Admittedly, yes, my classes often receive abilities and powers that are outside of the purview of normal E6, though I've tried to apply an eye for balance - some of them, like hide in plain sight, are accessible to 6th-level characters with the right prestige class choices, while others may be outside of what a normal E6 character could receive normally, but aren't powerful enough to merit the higher level requirement (Swift Tracking, though received at 8th level, isn't exactly overpowering). I also wanted to give non-magical classes some nicer toys and attempt to correct some of the greater discrepancies between the tiers. But my goal is high tier 3, which is still a higher power level than a lot of campaigns. If you don't like them, they're not hard to adapt for your own purposes and bring down to a lower power level - remove the mage classes' capstone SLAs, for example.


What this essentially does is retune the guitar, so all the strings match up. No, it doesn't sound like it used to, and you may not like it, but as a whole it works together more fluidly.

Couldn't have put it better myself.


I made some Archmage feat chains, and tried to make em balanced.

I like them a lot, though they are definitely on the higher-power side of things and some of them may be a bit too much in my estimation (I need some more time to review specifics), but since they are definitely in the "epic" part of E6, I think they'd work out okay. Making them into feat chains is a great idea, and helps to smooth out the curve and allow an "epic" caster to settle in to his newfound power. In any case, I think they are quite creative and finely-crafted, and fit with the flavor of the various archetypes very well.


I'm loving these classes, Gnorm. About to start a game using a cannoneer (with a bastion and chronomancer.) The only complaint I have is that I couldn't decide what to play due to too many great choices haha

Looking forward to the addition of the monstrous races (an intelligent gnoll engineer seems like it would be fun =] )

Well, thank you. If you can't decide which class you want to play, I like to think I've done my job!


Love the Didact Sage. Makes Truenaming worthwhile. Made one for a campaign and the player making a Cleric said mine made his cry just due to Words of Nurturing.

Glad it's working out for you. To me, truenaming was a very difficult system to finetune, and I think I may have applied too much force in the opposite direction and made it a bit too effective. But after years of languishing at the bottom of the class pool, a moment in the sun seems only fair.

[TurtleKing]

Glad it's working out for you. To me, truenaming was a very difficult system to finetune, and I think I may have applied too much force in the opposite direction and made it a bit too effective. But after years of languishing at the bottom of the class pool, a moment in the sun seems only fair.

I agree time in the sun is long overdue. As being a bit too powerful would actually say not so overall. With the gradual ignoring of the laws keeps the character from being too powerful too early. Think that you were going with the "Practice makes Perfect" as repeating something tends to do. The Didact Sage without Lexicon of the Evolving Mind 2nd level feat being taken only gets eight utterances usable all day while other casters can get so many spells more. Found as building the character by taking the mentioned feat opens up quite a but of versatility so can be a "gish" that can deal high damage in a few blows. The other option based on how much optimised the Truespeech mod which so far found can get upto +25 without extreme cheese enables the use of meta-utterances in a more "caster" type.

Though looking at things haven't seen... "epic" feats for some of the skilled classes. Wondering if had any in mind, or have I just not looked hard enough?

[Gnorman]

I agree time in the sun is long overdue. As being a bit too powerful would actually say not so overall. With the gradual ignoring of the laws keeps the character from being too powerful too early. Think that you were going with the "Practice makes Perfect" as repeating something tends to do. The Didact Sage without Lexicon of the Evolving Mind 2nd level feat being taken only gets eight utterances usable all day while other casters can get so many spells more. Found as building the character by taking the mentioned feat opens up quite a but of versatility so can be a "gish" that can deal high damage in a few blows. The other option based on how much optimised the Truespeech mod which so far found can get upto +25 without extreme cheese enables the use of meta-utterances in a more "caster" type.

Though looking at things haven't seen... "epic" feats for some of the skilled classes. Wondering if had any in mind, or have I just not looked hard enough?

Don't think they've been made. Once I begin a feat thread I will put together all the disparate posts made by Amechra, stack, DMofDarkness, and many others.

Also!

I am putting together another playtest here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12887660), if anyone is interested.

[Surrealistik]

Still no word on that minion fix. :smalltongue:

Tried to find your commentary elsewhere but could not.

[Morty]

I can't claim to be an expert on balance... but wouldn't the combat archetypes that get access to ToB manuevers noticeably more powerful than those that don't?

[Gnorman]

Still no word on that minion fix. :smalltongue:

Tried to find your commentary elsewhere but could not.

I put that in weeks ago.

[Surrealistik]

A tyrant gains the ability to summon minions. The tyrant may only summon humanoids, monstrous humanoids or giant minions with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater for whom he knows at least one native language in this way. These minions must be taken from entries in the SRD or MM. Each minion summoned in this way may have a final CR no greater than half the tyrant's level.

Minions have the statistics, abilities, and equipment as described in their entries with the exception that they can't gain experience, vanish when they die or are dismissed, and have only 1 hit point, but do not take partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save. Minions do not roll initiative and instead act on the tyrant's initiative count.

The tyrant may summon a minion into an unoccupied square within ten feet of himself as a full-round action. The tyrant may summon a maximum number of minions per day equal to four times his Charisma modifier. The tyrant may dismiss any number of minions as a swift action. Whenever the tyrant has more minions than his Charisma modifier, existing minions of his choice are automatically dismissed until their total number equals his Charisma modifier. Each minion that is dismissed in either of these ways replenishes the tyrant's daily minion limit by 1.

Wait, this? :smallconfused:

[Gnorman]

Wait, this? :smallconfused:

I didn't use it verbatim because of space issues, but yeah. This is how I adapted it: bolded parts are relevant.


A tyrant gains the ability to summon minions. He may summon standard goblins or orcs at 2nd level, gnolls or bugbears at 4th level, and ogres or worgs at 6th level (alternatively, he may summon any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant from the Monster Manual with a CR no greater than half his level). Minions have the statistics, abilities, and equipment of a typical member of their race, as put forth in the Monster Manual, and act on the tyrant's initiative. A tyrant may command or dismiss his minions as a free action, but may only give them complicated commands if he speaks the same language as they do - if not, minions may only attack the nearest opponent to the best of their ability. Minions of any kind only have one hit point, but they do not suffer partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save. The maximum number of minions a tyrant may have summoned at any one time is equal to his Charisma modifier (maximum of five), and he may summon one into an unoccupied square within ten feet of himself as a full-round action.

[Surrealistik]

Ah. I was kind of concerned about the ability to conjure unlimited minions (for trap/ambush triggering as an example), and the ability to salvage their armor, weapons, etc... when they are killed, and the possibility of minions advancing in level.

[Gnorman]

Ah. I was kind of concerned about the ability to conjure unlimited minions (for trap/ambush triggering as an example), and the ability to salvage their armor, weapons, etc... when they are killed, and the possibility of minions advancing in level.

Oh. Okay. I'll get on that, then.

[TurtleKing]

Hey Gnorman was just reading the Polyglot Sage with casting Power Word spells. One part of the LAP says at will which sounds like all day while the per day means only so many times. So which is it? All day long or so many times a day?

[Dandria]

Well, it's been a while since the last time, but it's nice to see that things are going great with your project, Gnorman. The psionics classes, the new archetypes and all those amazing races are a feast for the eyes. Allow me to celebrate by submitting my own class. The first, if I find some time to continue it, of five.


The Fire Elementalist

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2i3dpi.jpg

HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Spellcraft
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2| Archetype, Child of the Flame, Burning Soul

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Lesser Archetype Power

3rd|+1|+1|+3|+3| Scorching Rage

4th|+2|+1|+4|+4|Moderate Archetype Power

5th|+2|+1|+4|+4| Flaming Cloak

6th|+3|+2|+5|+5|Greater Archetype Power, Blazing Inferno [/table]

Proficiencies: A Fire Elementalist is proficient with light armor and simple weapons.

Archetype: At 1st level, the Fire Elementalist chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Child of the Flame: At 1st level, the Fire Elementalist gains Fire Resistance 5. This stacks with any other fire resistance the character may already possess and increases by five at every odd-numbered level.

Burning Soul: At 1st level, the Fire Elementalist can, as a standard action, cast a burst of flame with a 10 feet range as a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per level. For every die of damage he sacrifices, the range of the attack increases by 10 feet. The actual level of this spell-like ability is equal to half the Fire Elementalist’s level (rounded down).

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, the Fire Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Scorching Rage: At 3rd level, the Fire Elementalist’s Burning Soul ability may ignore the first 5 points of fire resistance of its targets. Starting 5th level, this increases to include the first 10 points of resistance.

Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, the Fire Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Flaming Cloak: At 5th level, the Fire Elementalist gains an aura of swirling flames. The Flaming Cloak grants him Cold Resistance 10 and affects all creatures or unattended objects within 5 feet of the elementalist, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per two levels to anything entering it for the first time in a round or starting its turn already within its range. The Fire Elementalist may activate or suppress his aura as a swift action. The actual level of this spell-like ability is equal to half the Fire Elementalist’s level and using it does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, the Fire Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Blazing Inferno: At 6th level, three times per day, the Fire Elementalist can maximize the damage inflicted by his Burning Soul ability.



Archetypes:


Destroyer
http://oi42.tinypic.com/sg4ozk.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Destroyer becomes proficient with a martial weapon of his choice. Also, every time he makes a melee attack roll he can choose to channel his Burning Soul ability through the weapon he wields. If he hits, the target takes damage from both the attack and Burning Soul.
Moderate Archetype Power: Any creature or unattended object hit by the Destroyer’s Burning Soul ability (whether directly or through a weapon) must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Destroyer’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone and sent flying 10 feet in a direction of the Destroyer’s choice. If an obstacle prevents the completion of this movement, the victim and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the victim stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
Greater Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to his Strength bonus, the destroyer can use his Burning Soul ability to cast a Fireball centered on himself. This works like the spell of the same name, but it doesn’t affect the Destroyer. His caster level is equal to his hit dice, and the DC is 10 + half his level + his Strength modifier. For the purpose of Scorching Rage and other, similar abilities, any damage is still inflicted by Burning Soul.


Lava Walker
http://oi42.tinypic.com/1zgeyqv.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: Any creature hitting the Lava Walker with a melee attack takes 1d6 points of fire damage per two levels of the Lava Walker and must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Lava Walker’s level + his Constitution modifier) or catch on fire.
Moderate Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier, the Lava Walker may completely ignore any resistance or immunity to fire that would prevent damage inflicted by his Burning Soul or Flaming Cloak abilities.
Greater Archetype Power: For a number of rounds per day equal to his level plus his Constitution modifier, the Lava Walker may grants himself Fire and Cold Immunity. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).


Arsonist
http://oi39.tinypic.com/a599n5.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: When the Arsonist hits a target with his Burning Soul ability, he inflicts it a bonus damage equal to his Intelligence bonus. The damaged creature keeps taking this extra damage at the end of each of its turns, until it spends a move action to put out the flames. For the purpose of Scorching Rage and other, similar abilities, this damage is still inflicted by Burning Soul.
Moderate Archetype Power: The range of the Arsonist’s Burning Soul ability increases by ten feet. Also, he may use it to target an area of ten feet radius instead of a single target, giving up this way the need for an attack roll. All creatures or unattended objects hit by the explosion are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + half the Arsonist’s level + his Intelligence modifier).
Greater Archetype Power: The range of the Arsonist’s Flaming Cloak ability increases by five feet. Also, any creature injured by it must make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + half the Arsonist’s level + his Intelligence modifier) or be blinded for a number of rounds equal to the Arsonist’s Intelligence bonus. Success indicates that the creature is not blinded, but is instead dazzled for one round.


Purifier
http://oi44.tinypic.com/2dj5d9h.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: A Purifier can turn undead as a (good) cleric of his level. Unlike a cleric’s, his Turn Undead ability is based on Wisdom instead of Charisma. He may use it a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. He also gains Improved Turning as a bonus feat.
Moderate Archetype Power: A Purifier can use his Turn Undead Ability to turn or destroy Aberrations. He also gains Extra Turning as a bonus feat.
Greater Archetype Power: A Purifier can use his Turn Undead ability to turn or destroy Outsiders. He can also use the Greater Turning power of the Sun domain a number of times a day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier.


Ash Priest
http://oi42.tinypic.com/5kq8h0.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: An Ash Priest gains Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills, and receives a +4 untyped bonus to both of them. A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Ash Priest can summon a Small Fire Elemental within a range of 30 feet. The elemental acts and is affected by feats as if summoned by a Summon Monster spell. The summoning takes a full-round action and lasts a number of rounds equal to the Ash Priest’s level plus his Charisma modifier. He also gains Ignan as a bonus language.
Moderate Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Ash Priest can summon a Medium Fire Elemental or a Hell Hound within a range of 30 feet. The creature acts and is affected by feats as if summoned by a Summon Monster spell. The summoning takes a full-round action and lasts a number of rounds equal to the Ash Priest’s level plus his Charisma modifier. He also gains Infernal as a bonus language.
Greater Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Ash Priest can summon a Large Fire Elemental, a Rast or a Harssaf (MM3) (alternatively, he may summon a Tiger with the Fire Element Creature template, from Manual of the Planes) within a range of 30 feet. The creature acts and is affected by feats as if summoned by a Summon Monster spell. The summoning takes a full-round action and lasts a number of rounds equal to the Ash Priest’s level plus his Charisma modifier.

I'll be honest with you: I may end up actually covering other four elemental classes, but the original idea was to make something that Nuclear Dan would enjoy playing :smallbiggrin:. Obviously, any critique is well accepted. That and some spell checks.

[Gnorman]

Well, it's been a while since the last time, but it's nice to see that things are going great with your project, Gnorman. The psionics classes, the new archetypes and all those amazing races are a feast for the eyes. Allow me to celebrate by submitting my own class. The first, if I find some time to continue it, of five.

Pure Awesome

I'll be honest with you: I may end up actually covering other four elemental classes, but the original idea was to make something that Nuclear Dan would enjoy playing :smallbiggrin:. Obviously, any critique is well accepted. That and some spell checks.

I would say "There are no words" but there are, and those words are "That is amazing, awesome work, and I want to know where you find your art."

A more measured critique will have to come when I am less exhausted, though. Off-hand, I really like the Arsonist and Ash Priest archetypes.

[Dandria]

I would say "There are no words" but there are, and those words are "That is amazing, awesome work, and I want to know where you find your art."

A more measured critique will have to come when I am less exhausted, though. Off-hand, I really like the Arsonist and Ash Priest archetypes.

OH MY GOD THIS IS THE BEST DAY EVER!

Seriously, I'm stuck in bed with a bad fever but the fact that you like the Elementalist has just made my day. Considering how much I enjoy your work, I consider myself happy, if not proud, to have been able to give something back. Also, I spend a lot of time on Deviant Art, so there's that :smallbiggrin:.

[unosarta]

So I just converted a prestige class I wrote a while ago into this style E6 base class for a campaign setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232675), and the author of said campaign setting said I should probably post it over here, and that seemed like a good idea.


Storysinger


http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/261/d/5/gypsy_fortune_teller_by_dianimator-d2yz1kp.jpg
[0] (http://dianimator.deviantart.com/art/Gypsy-Fortune-Teller-179674297)

HD: d6
Class Skills: The Storysinger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points: 6+ Int

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Archetype, Spellcasting, Singer of Stories|3|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Lesser Archetype Power|3|1|-

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Singer of Heroes|3|2|-

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Moderate Archetype Power, Unite|3|3|1

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Mythsight, Tapestry of Mind|4|3|2

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Greater Archetype Power, Singer of Epics|4|3|3[/table]

Proficiencies: The Storysinger is proficient with all simple weapons and two martial weapons of her choice. She is also proficient with light armor and light shields.

Archetype: At first level, the Storysinger chooses an archetype from the list below. She gains the advantages and abilities at the appropriate levels, as indicated on the list. Once this choice is made, it is final.

Spellcasting: The Storysinger casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. The Storysinger need not prepare spells ahead of time - she may spontaneously cast any spell on her list from the appropriate slot. She still requires eight hours of rest to refresh her spells. Her sole casting stat is the ability score chosen through the Singer of Stories, which dictates both the DC of her spells and her bonus spells. To cast a spell, the Storysinger must have a chosen ability score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Singer of Stories (Ex): The Storysinger gains a number of uses of Storysinging per encounter equal to her choice of her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Intelligence modifier, or 3, whichever is lower. She must choose whether to have Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma affect this ability at first level, and may not change that choice thereafter. She gains access to the following stories, all of which cost 1 use of Storysinging to activate.
The Frog King: Upon using this story, the Storysinger grants one ally within 30 feet the ability to strike a magical effect and attempt to dispel it. They must make a melee or ranged attack roll, and if they hit, may attempt to dispel a magical effect from the thing they struck. They roll a d20 and add the Storysinger’s caster level to the dispel check. If they are successful, one beneficial magical effect is removed from an enemy, or a harmful magical effect is removed from an ally. The magical effect is chosen at random. The ally may use this at any time during the encounter, but after using it, they may not dispel again, and if they do not use it before the encounter ends, the use fades. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Cat and Mouse in Partnership: Upon using this story, the Storysinger grants two allies within 30 feet the ability to work together in tandem. Whenever those allies flank a target, they gain an additional +2 competency bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls made against that target. In addition, whenever one of them successfully hits an opponent flanked by the other, they heal one hit point, and the other ally loses one hit point. This effect lasts for 3 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

Mary’s Child: Upon activating this story, the Storysinger grants one ally within 30 feet a +4 competency bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. Whenever they successfully make a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check, they take 1 point of damage. This damage may not be avoided, and cannot be healed. Upon their third check, they heal 3d6 damage and gain the effects of the Zone of Truth spell, only affecting their person, and cannot attempt any Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate checks for the next hour. This story lasts until the end of the encounter, if used during combat, or for one hour outside of combat. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Story of the Youth Who Went Forth to Learn What Fear Was: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger grants all allies within 30 feet a +4 morale bonus to Will saves against Fear effects. In addition, all allies within 30 feet gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class and attack rolls. This effect lasts for 2 rounds. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Wolf and the Seven Young Kids: Upon activating this story, the Storysinger may force one enemy within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or focus on her. For the duration of this ability, if the enemy failed the save, they may not attack any creature but the Storysinger. If they successfully hit the Storysinger, their land speed is reduced by half for 1 round. Multiple hits reduce their speed by half again, and also refresh the duration of the movement speed penalty. This ability lasts for 4 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

Lesser Archetype Power: Starting at second level, the Storysinger gains the appropriate power for her archetype.

Singer of Heroes (Ex): Starting at third level, the Storysinger gains an additional use of her Storysinging ability, and can play the following songs, which cost two uses of Storysinging to activate.
Trusty John: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger must choose one enemy within 30 feet. If that enemy takes more than one action, or a single full round action, they take 1d4 damage, and must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger levels + Storysinging ability modifier) or be Dazed for one round. This effect lasts for 3 rounds. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Good Bargain: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger must choose one creature within 30 feet. They take a -2 penalty on all Intelligence based checks, and for the duration of the story, whenever they fail a Knowledge based check, they heal 1 point of damage. In addition, all opponents within 10 feet of that creature take a -3 penalty to all Intelligence based checks. This ability lasts for 5 rounds. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Wonderful Musician: Upon activating this ability, all enemies may only attack the Storysinger. However, the Storysinger gains a +2 competency bonus to Armor Class, and any time an opponent attempts to attack the Storysinger, the Storysinger’s allies may move up to 10 feet towards the Storysinger, and all attacks made against the Storysinger provoke an attack of opportunity at a +2 bonus to the attack roll for allies. This effect lasts for 2 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

The Twelve Brothers: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger may choose one ally within 30 feet. That ally may not take any actions for the next round, besides moving. If they do, all allies within 20 feet gain a +2 morale bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity, and Fast Healing 2. This effect lasts for 5 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

The Pack of Ragamuffins: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger may grant choose one ally within 30 feet. That ally gains a +10 bonus to their movement speeds, and for the duration of this story, whenever they would move more than ten feet in a round, they deal an additional +1d6 damage on all attacks, and gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class. This effect lasts for 4 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.


Unite: Starting at fourth level, the Storysinger may unite allies with but words. Once per encounter, the Storysinger may grant allies a +1 competency bonus to attack and damage rolls made while flanking per ally flanking a single enemy. Allies also gain a +1 bonus to armor class per ally within 10 feet. This effect lasts 1d4 rounds, plus a number of rounds equal to one half of the Storysinger’s Storysinger levels. Activating this ability is a standard action.

Moderate Archetype Power: Starting at fourth level, the Storysinger gains the appropriate power for her archetype.

Mythsight (Su): Starting at fifth level, the Storysinger may use the Analyse Dweomer spell once per day, as a full round action. She is always considered under the effects of the Detect Magic spell.

Tapestry of Mind (Su): Starting at fifth level, the Storysinger may weave a tapestry out of stories and illusions. By spending a full round action, and spending all of her Storysinging uses, and casting one [Figment] spell of at least first level, the Storysinger may create a vast, beautiful Tapestry. All creatures with an Intelligence 2 or lower within 300 feet are drawn to the tapestry, and take 2d4x2 minutes to reach it. All creatures with 3 Intelligence or above who see the tapestry, or even catch a glance, must make a Will save or be fascinated, as the bardic music ability. The DC for the will save for this effect is (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger levels + Storysinging ability modifier). The tapestry lasts for 1d4x10 minutes, or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes first.

Greater Archetype Power: Starting at sixth level, the Storysinger gains the appropriate power for her archetype.

Singer of Epics (Ex): Starting at sixth level, the Storysinger gains two additional uses of her Storysinging ability, and can play the following songs, which cost three uses of Storysinging to activate.
Brother and Sister: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger must choose one ally within 30 feet. That ally gains a +3 competency bonus to Sense Motive checks, and whenever they successfully make a Will save for interacting with an Illusion, they heal 1d6 points of damage, and the Illusion is immediately dispelled. The caster of the Illusion, if they are within 30 feet of the Illusion upon its being destroyed take 1d6 damage. This effect lasts for 5 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

Rapunzel: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger must choose one enemy within 30 feet. That enemy immediately falls prone, and must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or become blinded. This effect lasts for 3 rounds. They take 2 point of damage every round that they remain prone, and take 2d4 points of damage when they try to get back up. Activating this ability is a move action.

The Three Little Men in the Wood: Upon activating this ability the Storysinger affects all allies and enemies within 30 feet. Whenever an ally successfully grants another ally a bonus via Aid Another or flanks with an ally and that ally successfully hits the flanked enemy, they heal 2 points of damage. Whenever an enemy fails to grant another enemy a bonus via Aid Another or flanks with an enemy and that enemy fails to hit the flanked enemy, they take 2 points of damage. All enemies take a -2 penalty to any check to Aid Another, and to attack rolls. All allies gain a +2 bonus to any check to Aid Another, and to attack rolls. This effect lasts for 3 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

The White Snake: Upon activating this ability the Storysinger must choose one ally within 30 feet. That ally gains the ability to speak with animals, as the Speak With Animals spell. Three times during the duration of this ability, the ally may summon an animal from the surroundings, as a standard action. This functions exactly as the Summon Nature’s Ally II spell, but they cannot summon Elementals. They may use Charisma based skills with animals as if those animals were not of Intelligence 2. This effect lasts for 5 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action.

The Three Snake Leaves: Upon activating this ability, the Storysinger must choose one dead creature within 30 feet. She reanimates them, as the Animate Dead spell. They count as technically living for all effects and purposes, including positive energy and healing, but they can be turned and controlled as if they were undead. They gain the evil alignment, and are just as disposed to attack the Storysinger’s allies as her enemies. At the end of the effect, the creature dies again, remaining in whatever physical state their body was in just before dying a second time. This effect lasts for 5 rounds.


Archetypes


Harmonist


http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2011/007/f/e/the_story_teller_color_by_rickbw1-d1pel7j.jpg
[1] (http://rickbw1.deviantart.com/art/The-Story-Teller-color-103137247)

Lesser Archetype Power: By spending one use of the Harmonist’s Storysinging ability, the Harmonist may grant two characters within 30 feet of herself the ability to share thoughts. Those characters gain Telepathy 100, but may only communicate with each other. In addition, they gain a +3 competency bonus to all attack and damage rolls made when within 10 feet of each other, and whenever one of them makes a full attack and hits with all attacks, that enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the other creature. This effect lasts for 3 rounds, and the Harmonist may increase the duration by spending an additional use of Storysinging in order to increase it by one round.

Moderate Archetype Power: The Harmonist gains a +3 bonus to all Diplomacy checks. Whenever she uses Aid Another with an ally, that ally gains an additional +1 bonus to the attempted roll, and the Harmonist gains 2 temporary hit points. If they succeed, then the Harmonist and that ally both gain a +1 competency bonus with the skill that they succeeded on for 3 rounds. Following successes stack, but do not refresh the ability. This ability may only be used on with ally per encounter.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, the Harmonist may spend two uses of her Storysinging ability in order to harmonize all allies within 30 feet. They gain a Hivemind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194605) until the end of the encounter, and whenever an ally who is part of the hivemind successfully hits a target, all other allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls made against that target. This ability stacks with itself, and successive hits refresh the duration of the ability. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter.




Teller of Tales


http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs9/i/2006/068/6/7/Story_Teller_by_ericdalrymple.jpg
[2] (http://ericdalrymple.deviantart.com/art/Story-Teller-30121687)

Lesser Archetype Power: The Teller of Tales may spend a use of her Storysinging ability as a standard action, and force all enemies within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or be Fascinated, as the Bard song, for as long as she Concentrates. Every time a member of the Fascinated group is damaged, the Teller of Tales must make a Concentration check with a DC equal to the damage, or the effect breaks. Concentrating on this ability is a move action.

Moderate Archetype Power: Any enemy who is currently under the effects of your Stories takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, and takes an additional 1 damage from any melee or ranged attack.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, the Teller of Tales may spend two uses of her Storysinging ability as a standard action, and force one target within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or be Dominated, as the spell. The Teller of Tales must spend a full round action each round in order to maintain control over the Dominated creature. If they Teller of Tales takes any damage at all during this time, she breaks concentration automatically and loses control of the Dominated creature. In order to maintain control over the Dominated creature, the Teller of Tales must speak or make a sound every round and direct the creature verbally. The creature does not necessarily have to understand the Teller of Tales in order to be Dominated. As soon as the encounter ends, this effect also ends.



Chastiser


http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/128/7/3/The_story_teller_by_Zentagas.jpg
[3] (http://zentagas.deviantart.com/art/The-story-teller-163356016)

Lesser Archetype Power: The Chastiser may, by spending a use of her Storysinging ability, send a fear of the weird and supernatural into those who listen to her, as a standard action. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or become Shaken. All allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, the fear driving them to greater feats of martial prowess. This effect lasts for 2 rounds.

Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever an enemy is affected by a Story that the Chastiser tells, they must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or be Shaken for one round. Once an enemy is affected by this ability, they are immune to it until the end of the encounter.

Greater Archetype Power: The Chastiser may, by spending two uses of her Storysinging ability, send a fear so strong into an enemy within 30 feet that they may not move. That enemy must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Storysinger level + Storysinging ability modifier) or be stunned for one round. If they make their Will save, they are instead panicked for 3 rounds. Once an enemy has been affected by this ability, they are immune for 24 hours. Activating this ability is a standard action.




Storyweaver


http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/028/a/5/Black_Fox_by_ZerachielAmora.png
[4] (http://zerachielamora.deviantart.com/art/Black-Fox-152119087)

Lesser Archetype Power: The Storyweaver may, by spending a use of her Storysinging ability, create a [Figment] effect, as if casting the Silent Image spell. At Third level, this becomes as if casting the Minor Image spell. At fifth level, it becomes as if casting the Major image spell. This effect does not require the Storyweaver to maintain concentration for it to remain. This ability lasts for 3 rounds.

Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever a creature interacts with the Storyweaver’s Illusions and successfully makes the Will save or has their Spell Resistance beat the Storyweaver’s caster level check, they take 2d6 non-Lethal damage. In addition, the Storyweaver’s Illusions, as long as they have not been interacted with by the enemy, can count as flanking that enemy as long as they are adjacent to that enemy.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, the Storyweaver may, by spending four uses of her Storysinging ability, cast the Mirage Arcana spell, and create up to three [Figment] effects, as if she had cast the Major Image spell thrice. She must concentrate in order to maintain this effect, and any damage causes her to automatically fail concentration and remove the illusions. Concentrating to maintain this effect requires a full round action each round. The Storyweaver may only concentrate up to a number of rounds equal to the ability score used with her Storysinging ability. Activating this ability is a full round action.




Folklorist


http://th00.deviantart.net/fs41/PRE/f/2009/049/2/e/Story_Teller_by_Lelia.jpg
[5] (http://lelia.deviantart.com/art/Story-Teller-112791542)

Lesser Archetype Power: The Folklorist may, by spending a use of her Storysinging ability as a standard action, gain a +4 bonus to any Knowledge check made to identify a monster, and gains a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls made against creatures who have been identified by the Folklorist this encounter. For the duration of this effect, they may use any Knowledge skill untrained. This ability lasts for 3 rounds.

Moderate Archetype Power: The Folklorist gains a +3 competency bonus to all Knowledge checks involving creatures upon whom she has used her Storysinging ability in the concurrent encounter. She gains the Lore ability, as Bardic Knowledge but using her Storysinger level instead of Bard level.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, the Folklorist may, by spending two use of her Storysinging ability as a standard action, know everything about all creatures within 50 feet. She gains Telepathy out to 50 feet. She knows the thoughts of all creatures that she can speak with Telepathically, and automatically makes any Knowledge checks that she attempts to find information about those creatures. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter, or for one minute, whichever comes first.



Spell List

0th: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Lullaby, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic,, Resistance.

1st: Alarm, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Erase, Hideous Laughter, Hypnotism, Identify, Lesser Confusion, Magic Mouth, Silent Image, Sleep, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism.

2nd: Alter Self, Calm Emotions, Darkness, Daze Monster, Detect Thoughts, Enthrall, Heroism, Invisibility, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Rage, Scare, Silence, Suggestion, Tongues, Whispering Wind.

[Grimsage Matt]

I got some more prestige feat chains for mages, and there's gonna be a few of them. The last one focused on the Class, why not make a shorter feat tree that focuses on some themes inside of the archtypes?

Black Mage
Demonologist

The name of Demonologist can be misleading, as the lower planes deal with countless races of feinds, from the Destructive Demons, Polotical Devils, Mercanary Yugoloth and Stern Demodand, the lower planes pulse with power, with a garnish of evil
Fiendish Brute
"Mages are weak. Sure, I was one once, but now? I can rip the head off a dragon with my bare hands."
Rank 1(Rageling)
Entry requirements;
Demonologist Greater Archtype power, One [Fiend] feat.
Benifits; A Fiendish Brute loses all spell casting abillity with the folowing exeptions; they may use the Demonologists bonus spells as 3/day SLA's, and the Capstone SLA remains unchanged. They also have all of their mental score redused by 6. They gain the abillity to enter a rage as a barbarian of their level. They also gain a natural armor bonus equal to their caster level and a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to half their caster level. At Rank one they gain a pair of claws that deal 1d8+str mod damage. they also replace the d6HD's with D10's.

Rank 2(Brute)
Entry requirements;
Feindish Rageling, three [Feind] feats and either improved natural attack or improved natural armor, CR8.
Benifit; Feindish Brutes gain a +4 bonus to intimidate, and can attempt to use the effect of the frightful presence feat 1/Encounter. They also gain a Bite attack that deals 1d8+1 1/2 str mod damage, and thier claw damage increases by one step. They also get fast healing 1.

Rank 3(Annihilator)
Entry requirements;
Feindish Brute, Six [Feind] feats, CR10, Diehard.
Benifits; The bonus to attack and damage increases to their caster level. The damage for all their natural attacks increases by one step, and deals a extra 2d6 untyped damage as they begin to destroy everything around them. Their diehard abillity increases, so that they have to be reduced to Con mod X Caster level negative HP before they're disabled. They can only be kille dby reduceing them to 10(Con mod+Caster level). Their Fast healing increases to 3.

Notes
The Black mage version is ment to convey a mage who gives up most of their spell abillity to embrace incrdible physical power. And, becuse many of their bonuses are based off caster level, tricks to boost caster level aren't a waste.

Feindish Sage
"How much do you know of the Abyss? No matter how much we think we know, there are a endless number of secrets. I merely know a great deal of them."
Rank 1(Apprentice)
Entry Requirements;
Demonologist Greater archtype power, Spell focus(Conjuration), Knowledge( Arcana and the Planes) 11 Ranks, Survival 3 ranks.
Benifits; +1 caster level. And Pick a Type of Feind. You Gain their least Benifit.

Rank 2(Journeyman)
Entry Requirements;
Feindish sage Apprentice, CR8, one [Feind] feat.
Benifits;+1 caster level. They Gain the Moderate Benifit of the selected feind type. They Also gain +4 on checks to interact with and indentify that type of feind.

Rank 3(Master)
Entry requirements;
Feindish Sage Journyman, CR10, Five [Feind] Feats.
Benifits; +1 caster level. The Maximium HD the Creature called by Lesser planar ally is increased by half their caster level. They gain the Greater benift for they're type of feind. They also Gain the Evil subtype. Once per Year, they can cast gate, but use caster level minus Half the attepted creatures HD instead of caster level to see if the feind is controlable if the summon version, and can only go to a lower plane or the meterial plane(Depends where you are) if the travel version(one way trip)

Types of Feind
Demon
Choas, change, almost limitless kinds.
Lesser Benifit; They Gain a Bonus feind feat that does not count towards CR increase. They also gain resistence 5 aginst one type of energy.
Moderate Benifit; Demons are creatures of discord, and you have learned to use that. 3/day, you can use Dirge of Discord. Your Previous resistence increases by 5, and you gain Resist 5 to another type of energy.
Greater Benifit; You Gain a bonus feind feat that does not count towards CR increase. Your Reistences increase by 5, and you gain a new one(5). You may use Dirge of Discord at will, and may use Song of Discord 3/day. But all this Choas that you can channel has some negative side effects. You Gain the Choatc subtype and While touching cold Iron, cannot use Spells, Spell-like abillities or supernatural abillities or magic items. Must make a DC20 Fort save after being damaged by a cold iron weapon, or be effected by iron posioning for one round.

Devils
Lawyers, deal makers and world shakers.
Lesser Benifit; You may use Suggestion 3/day. You also gain Fire Resist 10. Dealing with lawyers all the time gives you a +4 bonus to bluff, diplomacy and sense motive. You may also make Feindish Contracts (More on 'em later)
Moderate Benifit; The Fire Resist increases to 15, and they gain a permenant tougnes spell. They may use Charm Person at will.
Greater Benifit; Fire Resistence increases to 20. May use Sugesstion at will and Kelgores Firebolt at will. They Gain the Lawful subtype, and it's a bad idea if they lie (Twisting the truths fine so long as it's not a outright lie). When they attepmt to Communicate a lie, they take Cha mod/D6 untyped damage, which cannot be bypassed, and are stuned for one round. The damage increases by 2d6 and the stun duration by two rounds for every Lie told in a One hour period.

Demodand
Stern, Cruel prison guards.
Lesser Benfitis; Pick two types of energy, you have resist 5 to both. Dealing with Prison guards that torture the inmates for fun gives you a +4 bonus to intimidate checks, and you can use power word; Pain 3/day.
Moderate Benifits; Reistences increase to 10. You learn more things about prison (Including to never drop the soap). You gain a +4 bonus to use rope, Knowledge checks to determine how good a cell is/how good a cell a area could make, +2 to open lock and escape artist(You also learn to see how to escape cells.) And of course, there's always pesky teleporters. 2/Day you can use Dimensional anchor on a cube no bigger then 20ft by 20 by 10ft(Can be ,and often is, much smaller.)
Greater benifits; Resistences increase to 15. They may use power word Pain, Pain and the Blade of Pain and fear at will. Of course, there's some side effects:belkar: You cannot stand to see or know about escape a prison and must return them immidatily. Tread as if under a Geas/Quest effect that cannot be removed, and the Wrack spell is cast on you every hour that you aren't after the escaped prisoners. The only way around it is to convene a short bail trial, for which there needs to be someone who makes a DC15 Profesion(Lawyer) check.:smallbiggrin:
Yulogoths
Mercenary, Honorable, Backstabers.
Lesser Benifits; You Gain SR 5+caster level, or your SR increases by half your caster level, which ever is better. You can

Notes
The Abyssal Sage is the Casting Demon guy, and is ment to be a sort of loremaster like Prestige chain.

[stack]

Interesting that each fire elementalist archetype seems focused on a different stat. Not a complaint, just different.

[Gnorman]

Mr. Grimsage Matt, I am officially scared of your feat chains. While I think they are very well designed and oozing flavor, they also let an E6 character cast gate (albeit once a year, but still...). Really toeing that "epic" line, but I fully support all styles of play.

Question for you on the Ash Priest, Dandria: can it summon all the various levels of creatures 1+CHA per day each, or just in total?

And unosorta, the Storysinger is just basically brilliant. One of the most flavorful classes I've ever seen.

[Dandria]

Question for you on the Ash Priest, Dandra: can it summon all the various levels of creatures 1+CHA per day each, or just in total?

Each, I'd say: x times the Small Elemental, x times the Medium Elemental or the Hell Hound and x times the Large Elemental or the Rast or the Harssaf.

Of course, that's something I should really take some time to playtest: once you reach 6th level the small elementals are basically a scaled down reserve feat, but the moderate power can still hold its own.

Anyway, I'm almost done with the next one. I'll probably post it this evening, when I get home.

[unosarta]

And unosorta, the Storysinger is just basically brilliant. One of the most flavorful classes I've ever seen.

Thank you! I spent quite a bit of time on the stories that the Storysinger gains access to... :smallbiggrin:

The only thing I am worried about is the power level. I know that most of the classes have per day abilities, but I wanted to differentiate the class from the bard, so I made it per encounter, and I don't know how that affects the power level of the class. I took it into account, but I have no idea how successful I was.

[Grimsage Matt]

to be honest, i'm going to redo the Abyssal Sage, make it more like a Conduit of the Lower planes. Also going to tack a big hit on to the mental stats of the brute.

[Surrealistik]

A couple of Tyrant feats:

Horde Hoarder [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
The number of maximum minions you can have at one time increases by +1. The maximum number of minions you can summon per day increases by your Charisma modifier.

Special
You may take this feat a number of times equal to your base Charisma modifier.


Driving Command [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
As a Swift, Immediate, Opportunity, Move, Standard or Full Round Action, you can issue orders to a minion or henchmen you control that can hear and shares a language with you to make a Diplomacy or Intimidation check. If you do, that minion or henchman takes an action of the same type with a morale bonus to all attack, damage, ability and skill check rolls made with that action. This morale bonus is equal to 1 per 5 points of the check result that's greater than 10.


Rally the Troops [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
Once per round you can rally your troops, making a Diplomacy or Intimidation check as a Swift Action. If you do, all minions and henchmen you control that can hear and understand you gain a morale bonus to all attack, damage, ability and skill check rolls and saving throws for 1 round. This morale bonus is equal to 1 per 10 points of the check result.

[Dandria]

And here comes the next elementalist.


The Water Elementalist

http://oi39.tinypic.com/yexao.jpg

HD: d6
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2| Archetype, One with the Sea, Waves of the Heart

2nd|+1|+2|+0|+3|Lesser Archetype Power

3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3| Ever Changing Tides

4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Moderate Archetype Power

5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Raising Waters

6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Greater Archetype Power, Parting the Way [/table]

Proficiencies: A Water Elementalist is proficient with light armor and simple weapons.

Archetype: At 1st level, the Water Elementalist chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

One with the Sea: At 1st level, the Water Elementalist gains a swim speed of 40 feet. Like any creature with a swim speed, he gains a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks made to perform some special action or avoid a hazard, the ability to take 10 on a Swim check even if distracted or endangered and the ability to use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line. He may also grants himself the ability to breath underwater, once per encounter and for a number of rounds equal to his level plus his Wisdom modifier.

Waves of the Heart: At 1st level, the Water Elementalist can use Create Water at will as a spell-like ability. Unlike the actual spell, Waves of the Heart creates up to 20 gallons of water per level and is not Instantaneous: the water only lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Water Elementalist’s level plus his Wisdom modifier. The Water Elementalist may also hurl the conjured water, turning it into a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. Anything hit by this attack takes 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per two levels of the elementalist (rounded down) and must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Water Elementalist’s level + his Wisdom modifier) or be sent flying 10 feet in a direction of the elementalist’s choice. The Water Elementalist may add his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to any attack roll made with Waves of the Heart.

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, the Water Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Ever Changing Tides: At 3rd level, the Water Elementalist can use the following spell-like abilities: Animate Water, Fog Cloud and Water Walk (only on actual water) a number of times per day equal to three plus his Wisdom modifier, Control Water three times per day and Dispel Fire one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Water Elementalist’s level (rounded down).

Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, the Water Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Raising Waters: At 5th level, the Water Elementalist can block incoming attacks with a lighting fast blast of water. A number of times per day equal to his Wisdom bonus, as an Immediate action, he can grants himself a Fire and Acid resistance of 15, a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a Damage Reduction equal to his Wisdom bonus. This lasts until the end of turn.

Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, the Water Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Parting the Way: At 6th level, three times a day, the Water Elementalist can use Wall of Water (Sandstorm) as a spell-like ability. The actual level (and consequent DC) of this spell-like ability is equal to half the Water Elementalist’s level.



Archetypes:


Maelstrom
http://oi44.tinypic.com/1hckcz.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: Anything hit by the Maelstrom’s Waves of the Heart ability must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Maelstrom’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone and sent flying an extra 5 feet in a direction of the Maelstrom’s choice.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Maelstrom’s Waves of the Heart ability creates up to 200 gallons of water per level and may now be used as a Cone-shaped Burst with a range of 20 feet, giving up this way the need for an attack roll. Anything that makes its Reflex Save takes only half damage.
Greater Archetype Power: When the Maelstrom uses his Raising Waters ability, all creatures and unattended objects within 10 feet of him must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Maelstrom’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone and sent flying 5 feet in a direction of the Maelstrom’s choice.


Mirage
http://oi40.tinypic.com/124k64l.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Mirage can, as an Immediate Action and a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity bonus, take a five foot step. This doesn't count against his limit of one five foot step per round or against any movement he takes on his turn.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Mirage ma use the following spell-like abilities: Blinding Color Surge and Deceptive Facade a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity bonus, Mirror Image and Instant Diversion three times per day and Displacement one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Mirage’s level
Greater Archetype Power: When using his Raising Waters ability, the Mirage may also become invisible (as Invisibility, but only for a number of rounds equal to his Dexterity bonus) and take a five foot step. This doesn't count against his limit of one five foot step per round or against any movement he takes on his turn. Also, the Mirage may disguise the appearance of his Walls of Water (and only of his Walla of Water)as if they were under the effect of a Mirage Arcana spell.


Deep Dweller
http://oi42.tinypic.com/35mr3eu.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Deep Dweller gains a bonus on Swim checks equal to his Constitution modifier, increases his swim speed by 20 feet and can breathe underwater. Also, his Waves of the Heart ability is now instantaneous.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Deep Dweller gains Darkvision 60' or, alternatively, he increases his existing Darkvision’s range by 20 feet. Also, he may use the following spell-like abilities: Turbidity and Pressure Sphere a number of times per day equal to his Constitution bonus, Toothed Tentacle three times per day and Evard’s Menacing Tentacles (using Constitution instead of Strength) or Lesser Shadow Tentacle one time a day. The actual level of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Deep Dweller’s level.
Greater Archetype Power: The Deep Dweller gains Cold Immunity and takes no damage from pressure, magical or otherwise. While underwater, he also gains DR 3/-. He may use the following spell-like abilities: Flowsight three times per day and Evard's Black Tentacles one time a day.


Snow Sage
http://oi44.tinypic.com/w6xjr9.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Snow Sage’s Waves of the Heart ability may be used to create snow and ice. When using it to attack, the Snow Sage can turn the damage inflicted into cold damage and force anything injured by it to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Snow Sage’s level + his Intelligence modifier) or be slowed down for a round.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Snow Sage may use the following spell-like abilities: Ice Slick, Obscuring Snow and Flash-freeze a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, Ice Shape three times per day and Binding Snow one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Snow Sage’s level. He may also use Water Walk to move over ice and snow.
Greater Archetype Power: When using his Raising Waters ability, the Snow Sage grants himself a Cold, Electricity and Sonic resistance of 15. He may also use Parting the Way to create Walls of Ice instead of Walls of Water.


Celebrant
http://oi43.tinypic.com/259wmxf.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Celebrant’s Waves of the Heart ability may be used to create Holy Water and, when used as a direct attack, is also treated as magic and good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Any undead or evil outsider hit by the blast (including the incorporeal ones) must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the Celebrant’s level + his Charisma modifier) or take an extra 1d6 points of holy damage per level.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Celebrant may use the following spell-like abilities: Protection from Evil and Consecrate once per encounter, Status, Calm Emotions and Lesser Restoration a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus, Remove Paralysis three times per day and Remove Curse one time a day.
Greater Archetype Power: When using his Raising Waters ability, the Celebrant heals himself for a number of points of damage equal to his level + his Charisma modifier. Any undead or evil outsider making contact with one of his Walls of Water automatically takes 1d6 points of holy damage per level. Also, he may use the following spell-like abilities: Remove Blindness/Deafness and Remove Disease a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus, Neutralize Poison three times per day and Restoration one time a day.

This time around I tried a different approach: while fire is quite straightforward in its modus operandi (burning and then burning some more), water is a tricky little bastard (it's here, it's there, now it's ice and then it's steam). The class and its archetypes should reflect this idea: instead of the uniform, unforgiving abilities of its predecessor, the Water Elementalist gets a wide range of less powerful but more versatile choices.

It should be obvious when comparing Arsonist and Snow Sage, the INT based archetypes. For the Arsonist being smart means having a better range of use for its already existing "I'm going to burn down all of Paris" abilities, but for the Snow Sage it means relying on creativity and terrain mastery. Fight him in an Arena and he's probably going to go down, but give him some time to ready the battlefield and he'll **** you up big time. Anyway, I'll stick around and wait for suggestions, as usual. And some day, as God is my witness, I shall playtest this classes.

[gkathellar]

Ah, Gnorman, out of curiosity, have you pondered doing classes or archetypes based on Spellshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508)?

[Waddacku]

Question on the Magesmith's Greater Archetype Ability: Does it follow the rule of requiring the +1 enchantment before putting abilities on it, or can you imbue the weapon with two +1 equivalents or one +2 equivalent and not have the enhancement bonus?

[Gnorman]

A couple of Tyrant feats:

Horde Hoarder [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
The number of maximum minions you can have at one time increases by +1. The maximum number of minions you can summon per day increases by your Charisma modifier.

Special
You may take this feat a number of times equal to your base Charisma modifier.


Driving Command [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
As a Swift, Immediate, Opportunity, Move or Standard Action, you can issue an order to a minion or henchmen you control that can hear and shares a language with you to make a Diplomacy or Intimidation check. If you do, that minion or henchman takes an action of the same type with a morale bonus to all attack, damage, ability and skill check rolls made with that action. This morale bonus is equal to 1 per 5 points of the check result that's greater 10.


Rally the Troops [Tyrant]
Prerequisites
Diplomacy 5 ranks or Intimidation 5 ranks, Tyrant lesser archetype power

Benefit
Once per round you can rally your troops, making a Diplomacy or Intimidation check as a Swift Action. If you do, all minions and henchmen you control that can hear and understand you gain a morale bonus to all attack, damage, ability and skill check rolls and saving throws for 1 round. This morale bonus is equal to 1 per 10 points of the check result.


Excellent feats. Forgive my lack of work on the Tyrant stuff so far - I've been working on an E6 side project I think you will personally enjoy very much - I'm going to let that be a surprise for now.


And here comes the next elementalist.

This time around I tried a different approach: while fire is quite straightforward in its modus operandi (burning and then burning some more), water is a tricky little bastard (it's here, it's there, now it's ice and then it's steam). The class and its archetypes should reflect this idea: instead of the uniform, unforgiving abilities of its predecessor, the Water Elementalist gets a wide range of less powerful but more versatile choices.

It should be obvious when comparing Arsonist and Snow Sage, the INT based archetypes. For the Arsonist being smart means having a better range of use for its already existing "I'm going to burn down all of Paris" abilities, but for the Snow Sage it means relying on creativity and terrain mastery. Fight him in an Arena and he's probably going to go down, but give him some time to ready the battlefield and he'll **** you up big time. Anyway, I'll stick around and wait for suggestions, as usual. And some day, as God is my witness, I shall playtest this classes.

Stunning work again, Dandria - I'm looking forward to Earth and Air (and Heart).


Ah, Gnorman, out of curiosity, have you pondered doing classes or archetypes based on Spellshaping?

I had not, but mostly because I've never actually read about it before. I'll have to delve into it before I could commit to anything. Might be useful as part of my planned Sage redesign, though.


Question on the Magesmith's Greater Archetype Ability: Does it follow the rule of requiring the +1 enchantment before putting abilities on it, or can you imbue the weapon with two +1 equivalents or one +2 equivalent and not have the enhancement bonus?

The former is correct - it has to have a +1 enhancement bonus before you can give it anything else. You could either have a +2 weapon (still kind of a big deal in E6!) or a +1 flaming sword, for example.

EDIT:

Teasers for my slightly-distracting E6 sideproject! I'm in the process of designing three new classes for use with an adapted version of d20 Modern. Adapted for what, you ask? I'll let the following speak for itself.


Combat Boy/Girl
http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/c/c0/Survivalist.png

Stealth Boy/Girl
http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/3/31/MysteriousStranger.png

Science Boy/Girl
http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/c/c2/FB3_Psyker.jpg

[Knaight]

As I understand it, you are revising the skill structure. Are you also tweaking feats, spells, etc. at a structural level?

[Bayonet Priest]

snip Fallouty goodness

Hah, that's pretty cool. Are they going to follow your archetype system like your other classes do?

[Gnorman]

As I understand it, you are revising the skill structure. Are you also tweaking feats, spells, etc. at a structural level?

It will be a pretty heavy adaptation - skills are being almost completely overhauled to align with Fallout's mode. Feats will be drawn from existing perks. Spells don't exist, though I may reuse some of my engineer inventions (hey, I already put all that work into them... might as well use them for more than one class), and a very rare archetype may develop some rudimentary psychic powers (don't blame me, blame MCA).

I suppose one could just use d20 Modern as is, or use the Fallout PnP, but the former is a bit too complex and doesn't get it quite right (I also find its base classes boring), while the latter is a very, very clumsy system.


Hah, that's pretty cool. Are they going to follow your archetype system like your other classes do?

Of course - that's like, 90% of the fun for me.

[Bayonet Priest]

snip

Ah, a skills overhaul. It'll be interesting to see where you go with that, Fallout skills were pretty different.

D20 Modern I've always felt is an interesting base to build from but it has so many little things that I don't like that in order to run it I'd have to houserule it to hell and back. Anyway, E6 would fit it well and Fallout is just a wonderful setting for an RPG.

And good to hear about the archetypes. I think that's my favorite innovation I've seen in you classes.

[Knaight]

It will be a pretty heavy adaptation - skills are being almost completely overhauled to align with Fallout's mode. Feats will be drawn from existing perks. Spells don't exist, though I may reuse some of my engineer inventions (hey, I already put all that work into them... might as well use them for more than one class), and a very rare archetype may develop some rudimentary psychic powers (don't blame me, blame MCA).

I was referring to the main project, though that isn't clear in my post. You mentioned skill alteration in the first post.

[wadledo]

I would just like to say that I came out of my internet dwelling just to say how excited this made me.

Thank you.

[Surrealistik]

Gnorman, I would love to work with you on this d20 modern project. Maybe we can set up some sort of collaboration framework via Google Docs?

[Gnorman]

Gnorman, I would love to work with you on this d20 modern project. Maybe we can set up some sort of collaboration framework via Google Docs?

Let's talk.

[Gnorman]

Current revision on the docket: spend a little time with (and TLC on) the Sage, whose flaws are becoming increasingly glaring in my mind.

Now taking any and all ideas and/or suggestions in that arena.

I plan on overhauling the archetypes (expect to see the Polyglot and Tactician in particular vastly overhauled) and the Sage's 5th level ability (which is really just a "add some numbers to other numbers" ability, which I realize is the purest distillation of the game but still not entirely fun).

[Engorde]

This one overlaps a little with the Necromancer


Black Mage Archetype

Vampire
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/thumb/8/8a/Sorin.jpg/200px-Sorin.jpg

Bonus Spells:
1: Charm Person, Death Knell
2: Shroud of Undeath (Magic of Faerun), Spider Climb
3: Fangs of The Vampire King (Libris Mortis), Gaseous Form
Capstone SLA: Dominate Person or Enervation

Lesser Archetype Power: Unholy Vigor (Ex)
You can add your Charisma modifier instead of Constitution for bonus hp, and as a bonus to Fortitude saves. Also add your Charisma as a Natural Armor bonus to your AC.

Moderate Archetype Power: Blood Drain (Ex)
A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Create Spawn (Su)
If the vampire drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower with its Blood Drain Ability, the victim returns as an intelligent Zombie (It has its normal mental ability scores, and keeps its alignment, class levels, skills, feats, special attacks and qualities) with the Bloodthirsty Template (LM p173) 1d4 days after burial. The new Zombie is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved Zombies totaling no more than its own Hit Dice; any Zombies it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed Zombies. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved Zombie in order to enslave new ones, but once freed, a Zombie cannot be enslaved again.

Greater Archetype Power: Negative Immunity (Ex)
You become immune to negative energy, level drain and ability drain.

Edit: made some changes suggested by Gnorman

[Gnorman]

Hmmm, I hadn't even considered the possibility of using monsters as archetypes... but that could work out really well, I think. Good show. I love the concept. May I use it to scheme out a few more archetypes of my own?

As to the specifics: while I think it nails the vampire concept perfectly, there are some abilities I think might be a bit much. Charisma as a bonus to hit points is great, but I think it should be instead of Constitution, rather than in addition to, otherwise we're going to have an extremely hardy mage on our hands (which I realize is appropriate for an undead creature, but doesn't account for their limitations vis-a-vis not having a Constitution score). And I believe Create Spawn should have a smaller ghoul limit - I can see it being abusable on the same scale as Leadership, with the ability to gain 12 intelligent minions with potentially as many class levels as the vampire in question). Also veracity - most vampiric depictions in literature only seemed to have a stable of one or two (Renfield & Lucy spring to mind as the primary example). That's more of a subjective surface argument though, and freely dismissable if you disagree. I would say that a vampire could have, at most, two spawn, and that they cannot control only spawn with hit dice equal to their own hit dice -2 (or lower). Other than those concerns (and Kiss of the Vampire, which is potentially six Enervations in one), I'm sold on the Vampire.

[wadledo]

Hmmm, I hadn't even considered the possibility of using monsters as archetypes... but that could work out really well, I think. Good show. I love the concept. May I use it to scheme out a few more archetypes of my own?
I would assume that it's less of an actual monster and more of an emulation of the monster.

Then again, the normal vampire really doesn't have a place in e6, since it's so powerful.

Also, I may be wrong, but at any time, the Vampire could only have 2 level 6 Spawn, since it goes by the standard twice as many hit die, though this may not be what you are referencing.

[Gnorman]

I would assume that it's less of an actual monster and more of an emulation of the monster.

Then again, the normal vampire really doesn't have a place in e6, since it's so powerful.

Well, obviously it's not a real vampire, but it offers a flavorful and effective class progression of one with similar abilities and strengths. I personally think it is a great way to play a monstrous character while still hewing to the system at hand. Imagine an intelligent golem archetype based on the Sentinel chassis, offering spell resistance and damage reduction, for example, or an illithid archetype based on the Empath class. I may make a special "monster" archetype for every class I've got, now that I've been inspired.


Also, I may be wrong, but at any time, the Vampire could only have 2 level 6 Spawn, since it goes by the standard twice as many hit die, though this may not be what you are referencing.

According to the wording in the post, "At any given time a vampire may have enslaved Zombies totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any Zombies it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed Zombies".

That would seem to indicate that at level six, it could control twelve Zombies. This may be a case of semantical confusion, but we'd need the archetype's creator to clear that up.

If what was intended was it could only control a number of zombies whose total hit dice cannot exceed twice its own, then my issues with it are significantly less, though that still lets it have two equivalent-level cohorts, which I find to be quite strong.

[Engorde]

Hmmm, I hadn't even considered the possibility of using monsters as archetypes... but that could work out really well, I think. Good show. I love the concept. May I use it to scheme out a few more archetypes of my own?

As to the specifics: while I think it nails the vampire concept perfectly, there are some abilities I think might be a bit much. Charisma as a bonus to hit points is great, but I think it should be instead of Constitution, rather than in addition to, otherwise we're going to have an extremely hardy mage on our hands (which I realize is appropriate for an undead creature, but doesn't account for their limitations vis-a-vis not having a Constitution score). And I believe Create Spawn should have a smaller ghoul limit - I can see it being abusable on the same scale as Leadership, with the ability to gain 12 intelligent minions with potentially as many class levels as the vampire in question). Also veracity - most vampiric depictions in literature only seemed to have a stable of one or two (Renfield & Lucy spring to mind as the primary example). That's more of a subjective surface argument though, and freely dismissable if you disagree. I would say that a vampire could have, at most, two spawn, and that they cannot control only spawn with hit dice equal to their own hit dice -2 (or lower). Other than those concerns (and Kiss of the Vampire, which is potentially six Enervations in one), I'm sold on the Vampire.

Well i´m glad you liked it, as for your concerns, i wanted to make a little hardier mage archetype to fit the concept; regarding the spawn they are still zombies limited to one standard action but i see the number may be problematic, i just pretty much copied the original vampire template Create Spawn ability with some minor tweaks, maybe i can limit the number of spawn to just the HD of the character instead of double HD.

And by all means, feel free to do more archetypes based on this concept, i would love to see them.

[Engorde]

According to the wording in the post, "At any given time a vampire may have enslaved Zombies totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any Zombies it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed Zombies".

That would seem to indicate that at level six, it could control twelve Zombies. This may be a case of semantical confusion, but we'd need the archetype's creator to clear that up.

If what was intended was it could only control a number of zombies whose total hit dice cannot exceed twice its own, then my issues with it are significantly less, though that still lets it have two equivalent-level cohorts, which I find to be quite strong.

I edited my post and made some changes you suggested, now it can only control no more than its own HD in spawn, and yes it can control several spawn whose HD total no more than its own HD, so at level 6 it can control 1 6HD zombie, 6 1HD zombies and so on.

[wadledo]

Also, now that I am more lucid, why is it that Green Mage, Red Mage, and Empath (though less so Red Mage) all have 4 skill points per level when ever other full caster only has 2?

Red Mage I can understand, since it's trying to be a gish, and gishes are not that effective, but Green Mage is pretty darn strong as it, and Empath isn't that bad either.

[Gnorman]

Also, now that I am more lucid, why is it that Green Mage, Red Mage, and Empath (though less so Red Mage) all have 4 skill points per level when ever other full caster only has 2?

Red Mage I can understand, since it's trying to be a gish, and gishes are not that effective, but Green Mage is pretty darn strong as it, and Empath isn't that bad either.

All of them are non-INT-based, and so would otherwise get shafted in the skills department (I am of the mind that skills really help to round out a character, and so am inclined to give them out a bit more liberally).

The Red Mage gets a couple of extra skill points to fund those athletic/acrobatic skills.

The Empath gets a couple of extra skill points to fund those party face skills.

The Green Mage gets a couple of extra skill points for the exact same reason the druid did. I don't know what that reason is, though. Legacy decision? I have no defense for this one, honestly.

The White Mage doesn't get a couple of extra skill points, and given how much I deprived it of (proficiency with medium and heavy armor, medium BAB) the more I think about it the more I think it should. It's either that or I go back and give all full casting classes 2 skill points per level, with the rationalization of "they get spells to make up for it".

Hrm... you have exposed some inconsistencies in my design, and I salute you for that. Will assess and approach the issue.

[wadledo]

Hrm... you have exposed some inconsistencies in my design, and I salute you for that. Will assess and approach the issue.

I would instead give all casters that are not Int Based 4+Int Skill points, and then gauge how much the Int Casters need from there.
Though Green Mage is pretty strong, so I would still cut down on their skill list a little.
If I could find Szatany's Ultimate Classes, I would point you in that direction, but I have no idea where they are.

[Eleven]

If I could find Szatany's Ultimate Classes, I would point you in that direction, but I have no idea where they are.

There used to be a wiki where they were hosted & a small but delightful group of people were working on editing them. Apparently, that has disappeared, but the classes are accessible here (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Ultimate_Classes:Main_Page).

Although they look loaded, by and large I do believe that they are substantially weaker than the standard classes. In terms of modularity and towards balancing the classes at a certain level, they are a great inspiration.

[Gnorman]

I like the idea of bumping up non-Int-based casters to 4 skill points a level.

Also, going to try to work on a core-only spell list for those of you without access to the various books they're drawn from. Due to the lack of available spells, there will be some overlap between classes (will probably resemble M:tG's allied colors, with the black mage gaining a bit from blue and red, for example), and each archetype will only have access to one 4th-level spell. Based on availability, I may only give each archetype a single bonus spell, but increase the general spell list to compensate.

Core-Only Spell List

Black Mage
0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Inflict Minor Wounds, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue
1: Bane, Cause Fear, Command, Chill Touch, Detect Alignment, Detect Undead, Disguise Self, Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Protection From Alignment, Ray of Enfeeblement, Summon Monster I
2: Acid Arrow, Darkness, Darkvision, False Life, Fox's Cunning, Ghoul Touch, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Spectral Hand, Scare, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Undetectable Alignment
3: Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Ray of Exhaustion, Speak with Dead, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch

Demonologist
1: Burning Hands, Grease
2: Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray
3: Fireball, Fly
4: Summon Monster IV

Hexer
1: Horrid Laughter, Sleep
2: Hold Person, Touch of Idiocy
3: Bestow Curse, Deep Slumber
4: Fear

Necromancer
1: Death Knell, Hide From Undead
2: Command Undead, Desecrate
3: Animate Dead, Halt Undead
4: Enervation

Pestilent
1: Unseen Servant, Magic Fang
2: Spider Climb, Web
3: Gaseous Form, Poison
4: Giant Vermin

Void Cultist
1: Entropic Shield, Obscuring Mist
2: Glossolalia, Touch of Madness
3: Displacement, Nondetection
4: Black Tentacles

Blue Mage
0: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Ray of Frost
1: Charm Person, Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Floating Disk, Identify, Protection from Alignment, Sleep, Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism
2: Blur, Cat's Grace, Detect Thoughts, Gust of Wind, Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Summon Monster II, Touch of Idiocy, Undetectable Alignment
3: Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fly, Gaseous Form, Hold Person, Invisibility Sphere, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Nondetection, Suggestion, Summon Monster III, Water Breathing

Chronomancer
1: Deja Vu (adapted psionic power), True Strike
2: Make Whole, Shatter
3: Slow, Time Hop (adapted psionic power)
4: Resilient Sphere

Hyperborean
1: Chill Touch, Grease
2 Chill Metal, Fog Cloud
3: Frostball (as Fireball, but cold damage), Sleet Storm
4: Wall of Ice

Mountebank
1: Command, Hypnotism
2: Daze Monster, Enthrall
3: Charm Monster, Glibness
4: Dominate Person

Wayfarer
1: Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider
2: Dimension Swap (adapted psionic power), Rope Trick
3: Blink, Haste
4: Dimension Door

Weaver
1: Disguise Self, Silent Image
2: Hypnotic Pattern, Minor Image
3: Major Image, Tiny Hut
4: Shadow Conjuration

Green Mage
0: Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Guidance, Know Direction, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1: Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Endure Elements, Faerie Fire, Goodberry, Hide From Animals, Longstrider, Magic Fang, Obscuring Mist, Pass Without Trace, Summon Nature's Ally I
2: Animal Messenger, Animal Trance, Barkskin, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Hold Animal, Lesser Restoration, Owl's Wisdom, Soften Earth and Stone, Spider Climb, Summon Nature's Ally II, Warp Wood
3: Call Lightning, Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Dominate Animal, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Sleet Storm, Snare, Speak with Plants, Spike Growth, Summon Nature's Ally III, Water Breathing, Wind Wall

Chloromancer
1: Entangle, Shillelagh
2: Tree Shape, Wood Shape
3: Diminish Plants, Plant Growth
4: Reincarnate

Elementalist
1: Feather Fall, Produce Flame
2: Levitate, Resist Energy
3: Gaseous Form, Quench
4: Control Water

Ophidian
1: Hypnotism, Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Acid Arrow, Spider Climb
3: Hold Person, Poison
4: Phantasmal Killer

Subterranean
1: Magic Stone, Produce Flame
2: Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal
3: Meld into Stone, Stone Shape
4: Spike Stones

Wildling
1: Enlarge Person, True Strike
2: Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength
3: Greater Magic Fang, Keen Edge
4: Freedom of Movement

Red Mage
0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Ray of Frost
1: Alarm, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Entropic Shield, Grease, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Mount, Protection from Alignment, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Summon Monster I, True Strike
2: Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Continual Flame, Fire Trap, Glitterdust, Protection from Arrows, Pyrotechnics, Rage, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Summon Monster II
3: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Haste, Heroism, Keen Edge, Lightning Bolt, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Phantom Steed, Protection from Energy, Slow, Summon Monster III

Chaos Child (needs a rewrite for core)
1: Disguise Self, Magic Fang
2: Alter Self, Spider Climb
3: Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Fang
4: Polymorph

Crimson Disciple
1: Charm Person, Ventriloquism
2: Darkvision, Locate Object
3: Fly, Suggestion
4: Shout

Magesmith
1: Identify, Mage Armor
2: Align Weapon, Spiritual Weapon
3: Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon
4: Stoneskin

Pyromancer
1: Burning Hands, Produce Flame
2: Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere
3: Flame Arrow, Fire Shield
4: Flame Strike

Sand Shaper
1: Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Gust of Wind, Heat Metal
3: Sleet Storm, Ray of Exhaustion
4: Wall of Fire

White Mage
0: Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Know Direction, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1: Bless, Bless Water, Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Alignment, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Protection from Alignment, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I
2: Aid, Align Weapon, Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Eagle's Splendor, Find Traps, Protection from Arrows, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster II
3: Mass Aid, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Searing Light, Summon Monster III

Champion
1: Bless Weapon, True Strike
2: Bull's Strength, Shield Other
3: Heroism, Keen Edge
4: Divine Power

Exorcist
1: Command, Detect Undead
2: Hold Person, Zone of Truth
3: Detect Thoughts, Invisibility Purge
4: Dismissal

Healer (change lesser ability to: "Anytime a healer casts a healing spell on an ally, that ally gains fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the healer's caster level")
1: Goodberry, Deathwatch (non-evil)
2: Make Whole, Status
3: Create Food and Water, Protection from Energy
4: Restoration

Mystic (basically non-functional in core, pending a rewrite)

Oracle
1: Detect Secret Doors, Identify
2: Augury, Locate Object
3: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Divination
4: Scrying

[wadledo]

I like the idea of bumping up non-Int-based casters to 4 skill points a level.

Over the next day or so, I will go over the classes and see where they lie for skill-points and what not.

[Benly]

The Green Mage gets a couple of extra skill points for the exact same reason the druid did. I don't know what that reason is, though. Legacy decision? I have no defense for this one, honestly.

I suspect that the original reason was so that a druid could still be competent at Knowledge: Nature and Survival after taking the spellcaster tax of Concentration (and arguably Spellcraft).

[Gnorman]

The core-only spell list is complete, barring the couple archetypes I need to overhaul for core compliance.

Didn't turn out as badly as I'd thought, though a few of the spell selections are a bit of a stretch - just keep an open mind about the fluff, and it should make at least some kind of sense.

Still on the docket: Sage overhaul, White Mage overhaul, some cleaning up of archetypes across the board for core content. Obviously, some options (like the shadowcaster or any of the initiator archetypes) will be invalidated outside of core; c'est la vie.

[wadledo]

Going by Section, Class: Number of Skills, number of skill points, if Intelligence is Primary (full caster [or caster like] that uses Intelligence as casting stat), Secondary (half caster with Intelligence as casting stat or uses Intelligence for class features), or Tertiary (uses Intelligence primarily for skill points).

I will look at the number of 'required' skills (the skills absolutely needed for the particular job being done) later.
All this assumes that the character is 10 Int and non-human.
If they have Know (All), treat that as 5 skills.

Combat Classes
Brawler: 13, 4, Secondary
Gladiator: 15, 4, Tertiary
Hunter: 19, 6, Tertiary
Sentinel: 12, 4, Tertiary
Zealot: 16, 4, Tertiary

Skilled Classes
Engineer: 18, 6, Primary
Noble: 25, 6, Tertiary
Poet: 28, 6, Tertiary
Sage: 25, 6, Secondary
Scoundrel: 30, 8, Tertiary

Magical Classes
Black Mage: 8, 2, Primary
Blue Mage: 18, 2, Primary
Green Mage: 14, 4, Tertiary
Red Mage: 12, 4, Tertiary
White Mage: 9, 4, Tertiary

Psionic Classes
Aspirant: 15, 4, Tertiary
Empath: 16, 4, Tertiary
Esoteric: 12, 2, Tertiary
Kinetic: 13, 2, Primary
Subliminal: 33, 6, Secondary

[Dandria]

Next elementalist. The third one, if memory serves me right. It took me a while to find the pictures I was looking for, but in the end I'm pretty satisfied with how it turned out.

Anyway, with earth I went for a more direct approach to combat: punching instead of blasting, but punching REALLY hard. I also based each archetype on a different aspect of earth, something that I would have done with the water elementalist if only water had something to offer aside from ice and steam (and maybe blood, but avoiding Avatar references was already hard enough).



The Earth Elementalist

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nicqwm.jpg

HD: d6
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Profession, Survival
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2| Archetype, Riddle of Stone, Howling Rumba

2nd|+1|+2|+0|+3|Lesser Archetype Power

3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3| Carver’s Might

4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Moderate Archetype Power

5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Crushing Rage

6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Greater Archetype Power, Earthcastles[/table]

Proficiencies: An Earth Elementalist is proficient with light armor and simple weapons.

Archetype: At 1st level, the Earth Elementalist chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Riddle of Stone: At 1st level, the Earth Elementalist can summon a stone carved weapon. He may choose to give it a different shape every time he uses this ability, but some of its characteristics remain unchanged. The Riddle of Stone is always considered to be a martial, weightless melee weapon with a 5 feet reach. It deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage per level and has threat range of 19-20/x2. If conjured as a two-handed weapon, it deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. If conjured as a gauntlet, it may be considered a primary natural weapon. The Earth Elementalist can summon it at will as a swift action and dismiss it as a free action. He can only have one summoned weapon at the same time and he’s always considered to be proficient with it. As soon as he drops it, the Riddle of Stone disappears.

Howling Rumba: At 1st level, as a standard action, the Earth Elementalist can tear apart the ground and hit everything around him with a shower of debris. All creatures or unattended objects within 15 feet of the elementalist take 1d6 points of physical damage per two elementalist levels (minimum of 1d6). The elementalist may decide whether this physical damage is piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, but may only use one type at a time. Creatures affected by Howling Rumba must also make a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Earth Elementalist’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone. This ability can only be used as long as there is a solid surface within 15 feet of the elementalist. The Earth Elementalist may choose to omit a number of targets in the area of effect equal to his class level.

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, the Earth Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Carver’s Might: At 3rd level, the Earth Elementalist gains Tremorsense 60 and an untyped +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground. He may also use the following spell-like abilities: Stone Shape a number of times per encounter equal to his Strength bonus, Soften Earth and Stone three times per day and Meld into Stone or Soul of the Waste one time a day.

Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, the Earth Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Crushing Rage: At 5th level, the Earth Elementalist may consider any weapon summoned with his Riddle of Stone ability to be made of Adamantine for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction and Hardness. He can also use Riddle of Stone to summon two weapons at the same time, but each weapon conjured this way deals 2d6 points of damage less.

Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, the Earth Elementalist gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Earthcastles: At 6th level, three times a day, the Earth Elementalist can use Wall of Stone as a spell-like ability. Unlike the actual spell, Earthcastles can only create walls made of packed earth: they have 5 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 2, the DC for breaking through them with a single attack is 10 + 2 per inch of thickness and there’s no need to conjure them upon existing material. They most certainly cannot be used to bridge a chasm.



Archetypes:


Crystal Dancer
http://oi44.tinypic.com/35k1zdd.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: Any weapon summoned with the Crystal Dancer’s Riddle of Stone ability has reach and can be used to make trip attacks. Unlike most other weapons with reach, it can still be used against adjacent foes. The Crystal Dancer also gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat.
Moderate Archetype Power: When trying to trip opponents who have more than two legs or are otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid, the Crystal Dancer gains a +4 bonus on his Strength checks. For the purpose of making trip attacks, the Crystal Dancer is also considered to be one size category larger.
Greater Archetype Power: The Crystal Dancer gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on all Strength checks made during a tripping attempt and to all attacks made against prone opponents.


Metal Testudo
http://oi40.tinypic.com/5a5e7a.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Metal Testudo can add his Constitution modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to both his Armor Class and his Reflex Saves. When using his Riddle of Stone ability, the Metal Testudo may now conjure steel objects.
Moderate Archetype Power: As a move action, the Metal Testudo may use his Riddle of Stone ability to create an armor. He can change its shape every time he conjures it, but some of its characteristics remain unchanged: no weight, no maximum dexterity bonus, no armor check or speed penalty, a 35% arcane spell failure chance and an armor bonus equal to the Metal Testudo’s level plus his Constitution modifier.
Greater Archetype Power: The armor conjured with his Riddle of Stone ability grants the Metal Testudo a shield bonus equal to his Constitution modifier. All the armor and shield bonuses granted by the Metal Testudo’s archetype powers are also added to his touch AC.


Stone Whisperer
http://oi42.tinypic.com/w8rple.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Stone Whisperer can turn any Small statue he crafted with Craft (sculpting) into an Animated Object. The construct thus created will always understand the Stone Whisperer’s words and obey his every order. It takes 24 hours to bring one to life and a standard action to turn it back to a lifeless piece of stone. The Stone Whisperer cannot animate a new statue until the existing one has been destroyed or dismissed. He may repair his creation with a Craft (sculpting) check, spending one hour per roll and healing a number of hit points equal to the result minus ten.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Stone Whisperer can now use his Lesser Archetype Power to turn any of his Medium statues into an Animated Object. His constructs gain a bonus to attack and initiative equal to the his Intelligence modifier, plus one choice from the astral construct’s Menu A or one fighter bonus feat. The Stone Whisperer can make a different choice every time he brings a new statue to life.
Greater Archetype Power: The Stone Whisperer can now use his Lesser Archetype Power to turn any of his Large statues into an Animated Object. His construct gain a bonus to armor class and damage equal to his Intelligence modifier, his Craft (sculpting) modifier as extra hit points and one choice from the astral construct’s Menu B, two choices from Menu A, two fighter bonus feats or one choice from Menu A and one fighter bonus feat. The Stone Whisperer can make a different choices every time he brings a new statue to life.


Sand Weaver
http://oi40.tinypic.com/692uqb.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: The Sand Weaver gains a burrow speed equal to half his base land speed and the ability to move through desert environments without hindrance, as per the Waste Strider spell. He may also use the following spell-like abilities: Local Tremor a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom bonus, Earthen Grasp three times per day and Black Sand one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Sand Weaver’s level.
Moderate Archetype Power: The Sand Weaver may use the following spell-like abilities: Storm Mote a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier, Stony Grasp three times per day and Haboob one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Sand Weaver’s level.
Greater Archetype Power: The Sand Weaver may use the following spell-like abilities: Spike Stones and Fuse Sand a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier, Wall of Sand (Sandstorm) three times per day and Rain of Spines one time a day. The actual level (and consequent DC) of these spell-like abilities is equal to half the Sand Weaver’s level.


Mud Reanimator
http://oi44.tinypic.com/23k9j6a.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Mud Reanimator may use Summon Undead I (PGtF errata) as a spell-like ability. Every time he uses one of his spell-like abilities to summon an undead, he can freely extend it.
Moderate Archetype Power: Each undead summoned by the Mud Reanimator gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution. A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Mud Reanimator may also use Summon Undead II as a spell-like ability. Every time he uses one of his spell-like abilities to summon an undead, he can cast it without provoking attacks of opportunity instead of extending it.
Greater Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier, the Mud Reanimator can use Summon Undead III as a spell-like ability. Every time he uses one of his spell-like abilities to summon an undead, he can maximize it instead of extending it. Also, once per day he can, instead of extending it, change its duration to 24 hours.

[wadledo]

@Dandria: Three things:
1. You might consider doing a little checking, since there are a few cases where you have different names for the same things.
2. What is the class supposed to do? It's got a close range attack, but 1/2 BAB and d6 hit dice. Also, no reach means that it would need to be in the enemies square to hit, if I recall correctly.
3. This feels like it would work better as a variant of the Aspirant with Animus like abilities.

[Dandria]

@Dandria: Three things:
1. You might consider doing a little checking, since there are a few cases where you have different names for the same things.
2. What is the class supposed to do? It's got a close range attack, but 1/2 BAB and d6 hit dice. Also, no reach means that it would need to be in the enemies square to hit, if I recall correctly.
3. This feels like it would work better as a variant of the Aspirant with Animus like abilities.

1 - Ah, I tried to avoid that but apparently I left something in: can you tell what you found? It'd be helpful, thanks. EDIT: No, wait, I think I got it.
2 - The idea is to be really good at punching but not quite as good as hitting (even if an E6 game tone down the gap between full BAB and half BAB) or taking blows. Each archetype offer its personal solution to the problem, forcing at the same the elementalist to get creative. Crystal Dancer has reach and tripping, Metal Testudo has defense and hit points, Stone Whisperer has someone to hold the line and flank for him, Sand Weaver has BC and the ability to jump out of the ground while Mud Reanimator has summonings. Of course I'd appreciate any feedback on its actual functionality. Also, thanks: it should be "5 feet reach".
3 - Sorry, but I don't have any material about D&D psionics. Sadly, I can't work in that field.

[Gnorman]

Going by Section, Class: Number of Skills, number of skill points, if Intelligence is Primary (full caster [or caster like] that uses Intelligence as casting stat), Secondary (half caster with Intelligence as casting stat or uses Intelligence for class features), or Tertiary (uses Intelligence primarily for skill points).

I will look at the number of 'required' skills (the skills absolutely needed for the particular job being done) later.
All this assumes that the character is 10 Int and non-human.
If they have Know (All), treat that as 5 skills.

Combat Classes
Brawler: 13, 4, Secondary
Gladiator: 15, 4, Tertiary
Hunter: 19, 6, Tertiary
Sentinel: 12, 4, Tertiary
Zealot: 16, 4, Tertiary

Skilled Classes
Engineer: 18, 6, Primary
Noble: 25, 6, Tertiary
Poet: 28, 6, Tertiary
Sage: 25, 6, Secondary
Scoundrel: 30, 8, Tertiary

Magical Classes
Black Mage: 8, 2, Primary
Blue Mage: 18, 2, Primary
Green Mage: 14, 4, Tertiary
Red Mage: 12, 4, Tertiary
White Mage: 9, 4, Tertiary

Psionic Classes
Aspirant: 15, 4, Tertiary
Empath: 16, 4, Tertiary
Esoteric: 12, 2, Tertiary
Kinetic: 13, 2, Primary
Subliminal: 33, 6, Secondary

Making some adjustments to skills based on your data, and a few other things that have been bugging me lately:

Combat and Skilled classes are mostly unchanged: they are right where I want them to be skills-wise. I removed Knowledge (arcana) and Use Magic Device from the Engineer for consistency's sake - given that I put a clause in that they may never be a spellcaster, it seems incongruous. I may remove a few inappropriate skills from the Zealot and Noble lists as well. I added medium armor proficiency to the hunter.

Black Mage gains Bluff, Decipher Script, and Knowledge (dungeoneering).
Blue Mage loses Balance, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble, but gains Decipher Script, Forgery, and Knowledge (local).
Green Mage loses Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (the planes).
Red Mage is unchanged.
White Mage gains Decipher Script, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), and Sense Motive. I recently bumped it up to 4 skill points a level, too, as it is halfway between a cleric and a cloistered cleric. I am considering giving the White Mage the ability to select domains and a medium BAB to go along with its medium armor.

The Aspirant is unchanged.
The Empath loses Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty).
The Esoteric gains Heal. How the hell did I miss that one?
The Kinetic loses Knowledge (arcana).
Subliminal loses a few skills (Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Survival, and Swim) due to the fact that it traded 2 skill points per level and one die of sneak attack for psionic powers, a trade that heavily favored it over the scoundrel. It's no longer quite as effective of a face, though it probably remains a better utility rogue than the scoundrel. The combat edge still likely goes to the scoundrel, through judicious application of powers may alter that.


Next elementalist.

Looks mostly good, with some caveats:

Stone Weapon: may be too good (7d6 damage for a 6th-level elementalist wielding a two handed weapon might be a bit too much, though I realize that they will have trouble connecting)
Howling Rumba: you don't say what kind of action it requires and also d3s make me want to cry (I know you can just halve a d6, but still, it's kind of weird from a design point of view).
Carver's Might: why is Stone Shape per encounter but the others are not?

Metal Testudo: will end up getting his Constitution added to his armor class three times. Could end up being a bit nuts. A decently-optimized Metal Testudo with a +5 modifier to Constitution would end up with a base AC of 31, not including any other equipment or abilities - even a Vrock can only hit him on a 16 or higher. Throw a Bear's Endurance on him and he's practically untouchable.

Stone Whisperer: where in the class abilities is the "statue" thing mentioned? I like this one the best, personally, but I'm confused as to how it works.

Sand Weaver: mostly okay, but the sand dragon is too suicidal for my tastes.

Mud Reanimator: Part of the moderate archetype ability is useless because SLAs default to standard actions.


3 - Sorry, but I don't have any material about D&D psionics. Sadly, I can't work in that field.

The rules of psionics are freely available in the System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). Not having the book is no excuse!

[Dandria]

Excellent, feedback! Let's see, then.



Stone Weapon: may be too good (7d6 damage for a 6th-level elementalist wielding a two handed weapon might be a bit too much, though I realize that they will have trouble connecting)


True: it fits with the concept of raw, uncontrolled power that I tried to convey, but it could be too much. I need to think about this one.


Howling Rumba: you don't say what kind of action it requires and also d3s make me want to cry (I know you can just halve a d6, but still, it's kind of weird from a design point of view).

Yeah, its cringeworthy: I wanted to say it deals 1d6 per two level of the elementalist, but I couldn't find a way to make it sound right. Non native speaker and all that. If you can reword it I'll be glad to give up the d3. Also, standard action.



Carver's Might: why is Stone Shape per encounter but the others are not?


Because moving stone around should be for the earth elementalist what breathing underwater is for the water elementalist (that is to say, somethig natural), and the encounter powers actually work pretty well for this. Softening earth and stone means changing their nature and melding into them is a pretty big deal.



Metal Testudo: will end up getting his Constitution added to his armor class three times. Could end up being a bit nuts. A decently-optimized Metal Testudo with a +5 modifier to Constitution would end up with a base AC of 31, not including any other equipment or abilities - even a Vrock can only hit him on a 16 or higher. Throw a Bear's Endurance on him and he's practically untouchable.

And that would also be the only defense of someone whose role is to stand in close combat with a d6 hit die and half BAB: he's going to hold the line against direct attacks, but when faced with an opponent smart enough to not go toe-to-toe aginst a guy named "testudo" he'd better fall back. Anyway, I'll admit he's the one I like the least: I shall think about it. Maybe I could give him the power to make flying weapons and attack from the distance. . .



Stone Whisperer: where in the class abilities is the "statue" thing mentioned? I like this one the best, personally, but I'm confused as to how it works.

Nowhere: he can only Animate a normale statue that he Crafted himself with mundane means. I'll make it clearer.


Sand Weaver: mostly okay, but the sand dragon is too suicidal for my tastes.

I'll be honest with you: I put in the sand dragon only because there was one in the picture. Yes, I know, I'm a childish little man :smallredface: I promise I'll do my best to muster the strength to remove it :smallsigh:.



Mud Reanimator: Part of the moderate archetype ability is useless because SLAs default to standard actions.

Good point, I should make clear that his summonings take a full round action, or just change that power.


The rules of psionics are freely available in the System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). Not having the book is no excuse!

Oh, interesting: I always kind of assumed there were no psionics in the SRD, but now that you pointed it out I found them. Really, really interesting.

Well, now I have something to think about: I'll fix the small issues right now and leave the big ones for later, when I'll be able to see them more objectively. After doing Air I'll probably go back and check all the elementalists, just to be sure. Until then, thanks for the useful tips.

[Gnorman]

This is how I would word the Howling Rumba ability:

At 1st level, as a standard action, the Earth Elementalist can tear apart the ground and hit everything around him with a shower of debris. All creatures or unattended objects within 15 feet of the elementalist take 1d6 points of physical damage per two elementalist levels (minimum of 1d6). The elementalist may decide whether this physical damage is piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, but may only use one type at a time. Creatures affected by Howling Rumba must also make a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Earth Elementalist’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone. This ability can only be used as long as there is a solid surface within 15 feet of the elementalist. The Earth Elementalist may choose to omit a number of targets in the area of effect equal to his class level.

And I have no problem with the sand dragon per se; just don't think it should have a chance to turn on the summoner. As a short-term, once per day summon, I think it's just about right.

[Dandria]

At 1st level, as a standard action, the Earth Elementalist can tear apart the ground and hit everything around him with a shower of debris. All creatures or unattended objects within 15 feet of the elementalist take 1d6 points of physical damage per two elementalist levels (minimum of 1d6). The elementalist may decide whether this physical damage is piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, but may only use one type at a time. Creatures affected by Howling Rumba must also make a Reflex save (DC 10 + half the Earth Elementalist’s level + his Strength modifier) or be knocked prone. This ability can only be used as long as there is a solid surface within 15 feet of the elementalist. The Earth Elementalist may choose to omit a number of targets in the area of effect equal to his class level.

Perfect, this is going straight in the description.


And I have no problem with the sand dragon per se; just don't think it should have a chance to turn on the summoner. As a short-term, once per day summon, I think it's just about right.

I don't know, it seems pretty strong even as a short-term deal: a CR 5 means different things for a dragon than it does for any other monster. Let me first run some math on what it could do in those 6 rounds.

[Gnorman]

I don't know, it seems pretty strong even as a short-term deal: a CR 5 means different things for a dragon than it does for any other monster. Let me first run some math on what it could do in those 6 rounds.

It has a piddling little breath weapon and though it gets five attacks, most of them will be lucky to do even five damage. By the time you get the ability, the kind of threats you'll be facing won't have too much of an issue with its damage, but it can be a mobile distraction.

Sand dragons aren't particularly stellar.

[Agent_0042]

This is solid, impressive work, and it's convinced a player who's in love with high-power, high-level games to run a variant he had dismissed. Once I start my West Marches E6 game come June, expect a ton of feedback from me.

Regarding the Sage, my problem with the Polyglot archetype (aside from the PW issue) is that it conceptually overlaps with the Didact. The easiest route would be to change it to a Runecaster, or something similar. Adapting the PrC of the same name should be doable, and the Deathwarden Chanter also has some material you can borrow from. Alternatively, if you take the symbol spells, make them single-target and fade after they're triggered, and drop them all by about four spell levels, you get effects that are fairly in-line with spellcasting options of the same level (given the extensive cast time). Add in explosive runes, glyph of warding, and the like, and set a cap on the number of effects he can have active, and you have something workable.

As for the Tactician, logically, he'd be the guy to know the enemies you're facing, their abilities, and their weaknesses, right? So why not scrap him and replace him with an Archivist archetype? TBH, I'm kinda surprised I didn't see Dark Knowledge somewhere under the Sage.

[vasharanpaladin]

I find it somewhat galling that the subliminal, which I (perhaps incorrectly?) parse as the ASSASSIN-like psionicist, can't produce weapons with her brain. :smallfrown:

[Gnorman]

This is solid, impressive work, and it's convinced a player who's in love with high-power, high-level games to run a variant he had dismissed. Once I start my West Marches E6 game come June, expect a ton of feedback from me.

Sweet, looking forward to it. I'll have plenty of time in July to evaluate and revise, and then likely no time after that for three years or so.

Regarding the Sage, my problem with the Polyglot archetype (aside from the PW issue) is that it conceptually overlaps with the Didact. The easiest route would be to change it to a Runecaster, or something similar. Adapting the PrC of the same name should be doable, and the Deathwarden Chanter also has some material you can borrow from. Alternatively, if you take the symbol spells, make them single-target and fade after they're triggered, and drop them all by about four spell levels, you get effects that are fairly in-line with spellcasting options of the same level (given the extensive cast time). Add in explosive runes, glyph of warding, and the like, and set a cap on the number of effects he can have active, and you have something workable.

That's not a bad idea - I'll add it to my pile of proposed Sage changes.

As for the Tactician, logically, he'd be the guy to know the enemies you're facing, their abilities, and their weaknesses, right? So why not scrap him and replace him with an Archivist archetype? TBH, I'm kinda surprised I didn't see Dark Knowledge somewhere under the Sage.

I was consciously trying not to rip Dark Knowledge off, that's why. The sage is basically "archivist without casting" in terms of fluff, you're right.


I find it somewhat galling that the subliminal, which I (perhaps incorrectly?) parse as the ASSASSIN-like psionicist, can't produce weapons with her brain. :smallfrown:

Because: why not cut out the middle man and kill them with your brain directly?

And that's not strictly true - the trueshot can make mind arrows.

[wadledo]

Speaking of Polyglot (I made a funny!), what are the various Power Word Spells out there?

[Gnorman]

Speaking of Polyglot (I made a funny!), what are the various Power Word Spells out there?

Blind (PHB, level 8)
Deafen (Races of the Dragon, level 3)
Disable (RotD, level 5)
Distract (RotD, level 4)
Fatigue (RotD, level 1)
Kill (PHB, level 9)
Maladroit (RotD, level 3)
Nauseate (RotD, level 6)
Pain (RotD, level 1)
Petrify (RotD, level 8)
Sicken (RotD, level 2)
Stun (PHB, level 7)
Weaken (RotD, level 3)

[wadledo]

Huh, only one 2nd level spell.

And 2 more questions:

1. How much money should each class get at 1st level?

2. Anyone want to play in a game? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13237889#post13237889)

[Sanglorian]

With all the 5E talk of themes, your classes are looking rather prescient! I wonder if it would be possible to decouple archetypes from classes, so that any character could choose any archetype. (I know that at the moment archetypes are of different power to reflect the different power of their base classes, but that might be fixable).

[Gnorman]

With all the 5E talk of themes, your classes are looking rather prescient! I wonder if it would be possible to decouple archetypes from classes, so that any character could choose any archetype. (I know that at the moment archetypes are of different power to reflect the different power of their base classes, but that might be fixable).

I doubt it would be easy - many archetypes have abilities that specifically improve or key off base class abilities. It would likely require an overhaul of the entire system. I would hope that the power level of all archetypes remain fairly balanced in comparison to one another, but hey, I'm not a miracle worker.

It might be easier with generic classes. You'd have to come up with broad archetypes, like "Adherent of Nature," which would get you a barbarian if applied to the warrior, a ranger if applied to the expert, and a druid if applied to the spellcaster (but honestly, at that point, you're already designing three different classes entirely, so you're back to square one). I'm not saying it's not possible, just extremely cumbersome for my work as it stands currently.

[Eldest]

How would a Factotum 6 stand up, power-wise, to your classes? What changes would you need?

[Agent_0042]

I was consciously trying not to rip Dark Knowledge off, that's why. The sage is basically "archivist without casting" in terms of fluff, you're right.

I mean, you've provided a way to emulate pretty much every other class feature, and Dark Knowledge is a solid set of abilities, so I don't see why it shouldn't make an appearance. Just saying.

[Gnorman]

How would a Factotum 6 stand up, power-wise, to your classes? What changes would you need?

I think it'd stack up fairly nicely.


I mean, you've provided a way to emulate pretty much every other class feature, and Dark Knowledge is a solid set of abilities, so I don't see why it shouldn't make an appearance. Just saying.

...

...

dammit, you're absolutely right.

[SecondRevan]

Just want to say how much I love your work. Everything is so full with fluff and I love how the archetypes work. I feel like I want to make at least one character for each class, which is impressive considering how much I struggle to found most core races inspiring.

I think I might attempt to make some homebrew for this, partly because they are great and partly the idea of doing homebrew on homebrew is too meta to resist. Though it would be my first attempt at homebrew so it might need some help. Currently thinking of classes based around shapeshiftng, which I'll try not to have too much overlap with the Green Mage, and one combining stuff like grafts and evolutionist homebrew class.

Also, I've had a look at some of the homebrew classes posted here, and was wondering if you could link the ones that aren't already in the OP into the OP for easy reference. The more classes, the better

[Gnorman]

Just want to say how much I love your work. Everything is so full with fluff and I love how the archetypes work. I feel like I want to make at least one character for each class, which is impressive considering how much I struggle to found most core races inspiring.

I think I might attempt to make some homebrew for this, partly because they are great and partly the idea of doing homebrew on homebrew is too meta to resist. Though it would be my first attempt at homebrew so it might need some help. Currently thinking of classes based around shapeshiftng, which I'll try not to have too much overlap with the Green Mage, and one combining stuff like grafts and evolutionist homebrew class.

Also, I've had a look at some of the homebrew classes posted here, and was wondering if you could link the ones that aren't already in the OP into the OP for easy reference. The more classes, the better

Thanks! If you need any input, I'm happy to provide. I'm not the most experienced homebrewer myself (before I started on the E6 stuff, I'd only ever designed one base class), but I like to think I've found my niche. A shapeshifting class is a great idea, and I'm very intrigued to see what you do with it.

And I'll get on the linking task - I believe Dandria's classes still need to be put up on the front page.

[Eldest]

For the archetypes, do you gain the bonus spells when you can cast that level of spell or at the level where you gain the moderate (or whichever) archetype power? And were you going to switch it so that you pick your archetype at 2nd level instead of first?

[Gnorman]

For the archetypes, do you gain the bonus spells when you can cast that level of spell or at the level where you gain the moderate (or whichever) archetype power? And were you going to switch it so that you pick your archetype at 2nd level instead of first?

I guess technically, the way I worded it, the mage classes know all their bonus spells once they choose their archetype, they just can't access all of them.

And I don't know about the second question. Part of me wants to shift all archetype powers down a level (1st, 3rd, and 5th), so that iconic powers like raging or bardic music are accessible from the get-go.

[Eldest]

I think the archetype ability placement is good, just being forced to choose at level one is odd, since you don't have any of the abilities at level one. So in theory, you could play the class at level one aiming to take one archetype, but after seeing how you like this other ability in play you think you'll focus on the other archetype.

[Wyntonian]

I think the archetype ability placement is good, just being forced to choose at level one is odd, since you don't have any of the abilities at level one. So in theory, you could play the class at level one aiming to take one archetype, but after seeing how you like this other ability in play you think you'll focus on the other archetype.

I agree with the above. If you really want those powers, you can start at level 2.

[SecondRevan]

There are advantages to having the archetypes start at level 1, as they are a defining aspect of the class. I know that with the problem with the shapeshifter that I am designing is that I am struggling with the first level because I want each archetype to shapeshift in a different way. I tried thinking up a generic shapeshift for level one, but I can't think of one that fits every archetype I'm planning (damn lycanthrope archetype). The greater the difference between each archetype, the harder that first level is to effectively design (though I admit that a large portion of my issue is that I want each archetype to have their own unique version of the main class feature).

However, I believe you need to get the Greater Archetype Power at level 6. Considering how important the archetype choice is to deciding what type of character you are playing, it has to make up part of the capstone.

[Eldest]

Have a Battle Form shapeshift, that gives +x to strength and constitution. Then give each version a different ability. Such as wolfspeaker getting the trip attempt on all attacks and Improved Trip (with improvements on trip and teamwork later), the bear getting a rage, better grappling, et al. Just have the basic form and have each archetype improve on it in different ways.

[SecondRevan]

That idea works solves the issue with the lycanthrope archetype, but it doesn't fit other archetypes that aren't about simply hitting things. My current plan for archetypes are:

Lycanthrope
Warshaper
Unnamed Wild Shape style shapeshifter
Unnamed sneak attack based shapeshifter
Unnamed Fae/Succubus type shapeshifter

If I have a default battle form, it hurts the Fae/Succubus style shapeshifting, as I was planning on having them rely more on using disguise and suggestion and similar maechanics, instead of simply hitting people. It also may not work on the sneak attack based form, depending on how I design it, though that one is also the most likely to be dropped.

[Eldest]

So have the Alter Form ability give +2 to two of your stats, out of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma (beauty is part of it, after all), and have the first archetype power give each of them an additional +2 to their specific ability if triggered. So a level 2 succubus could get +2 str +2 con, or +2 dex and +4 cha.

[SecondRevan]

That idea could work. I'm starting to have another idea for a level 1 ability which should allow me to build the class the way I wish. I'll see what everyone thinks about the class when it is done, and if it doesn't work, I'll certainly use your idea, with maybe a few changes.

[Callous]

You should give the scoundrel classes innate weapon finesse.. instead unless they go ranged.. hunter? style at first and second they're horrible all the way until third when they can get weapon finesse with +1 BaB.

Also... you could use a more 'reasonable' fighter type..

Like "Warrior" or "Swordsman" or something along those lines.. The Duelist would fit right in there, and probably the tactician as well... and then finally some sort of versatile "Soldier" kind of type instead of all these overly themed archetypes.

[Callous]

You should give the scoundrel classes innate weapon finesse.. instead unless they go ranged.. hunter? style at first and second they're horrible all the way until third when they can get weapon finesse with +1 BaB.

Also... you could use a more 'reasonable' fighter type..

Like "Warrior" or "Swordsman" or something along those lines.. The Duelist would fit right in there, and probably the tactician as well... and then finally some sort of versatile "Soldier" kind of type to give an alternative to all these overly themed Str guy archetypes.

[Eldest]

There's a defensive fighter and a offensive fighter. The archetypes are just customizing the classes. Mind being a bit more specific?

[Gnorman]

You should give the scoundrel classes innate weapon finesse.. instead unless they go ranged.. hunter? style at first and second they're horrible all the way until third when they can get weapon finesse with +1 BaB.

Also... you could use a more 'reasonable' fighter type..

Like "Warrior" or "Swordsman" or something along those lines.. The Duelist would fit right in there, and probably the tactician as well... and then finally some sort of versatile "Soldier" kind of type to give an alternative to all these overly themed Str guy archetypes.

I plan on revamping Weapon Finesse - part of that revamp would be reducing the BAB requirement to 0, and giving it more of a benefit. Also, nothing is preventing you from giving a scoundrel high Strength.

The Gladiator is basically the fighter you're looking for. It's the "versatile" one, despite having the barbarian archetype contained within.

The Hunter depends on Dex/Int, the Monk depends on Wis/Int, the Zealot depends on Charisma - they're not all "Str guys".

[Callous]

Actually reading through and really considering the martial classes i realize that they do allow one to play a more regular 'warrior' kind of character.

I suppose it was just the outlandish names.. Gladiators... Pit Fighters.. Kensais etc that throws me off.


However, the scoundrel issue is still an issue. Sure you can make him strength based.. buuut considering that he and all the archetypes rely on stealth, sneak attacks and wear light armor.. a strength scoundrel would basically be bad at what he's supposed to do, and bad at what he's trying to do by going strength. So basically, bad bad bad.

Regularly you can make a strength based 'roguish' character that works but with your classes (most of which are wonderful) do have the disadvantage of utterly boxing in your choices. You pick a type, then have one of 4 paths to walk down on and then theres no turning back. Making a scoundrel that isn't focused on dexterity would be like making one of the caster classes that has max 12 in its primary mental attribute.

[Dead_Jester]

Regularly you can make a strength based 'roguish' character that works but with your classes (most of which are wonderful) do have the disadvantage of utterly boxing in your choices. You pick a type, then have one of 4 paths to walk down on and then theres no turning back. Making a scoundrel that isn't focused on dexterity would be like making one of the caster classes that has max 12 in its primary mental attribute.

I don't get how making a scoundrel that isn't dex based is a problem; 3 of the 5 paths aren't dex dependent (the Cutthroat, the Silencer, and the Umbral Scion), and the base class isn't very dex dependent. The only reason you'd need a lot of dexterity is for twf, so you get stack on the sneak attack damage, and, in the E6 level of play, you are pretty much limited to the first one anyway, and therefore only need a 15 in dex at best. Of course, no one advocated dumping dex when you are playing a roguish character, but you can make a perfectly viable one as more of a thug than a thief.

[Wyntonian]

Regularly you can make a strength based 'roguish' character that works but with your classes (most of which are wonderful) do have the disadvantage of utterly boxing in your choices. You pick a type, then have one of 4 paths to walk down on and then theres no turning back. Making a scoundrel that isn't focused on dexterity would be like making one of the caster classes that has max 12 in its primary mental attribute.

1. Welcome to D&D. That's how classes work. You pick one, and barring a couple loopholes, you only move forward. That's inescapable, not something Gnorman did.

2. No. No it's not. A non-dex-focused scoundrel could be eminently competent in a variety of roles, especially in a couple of archetypes. A Caster with a mental of 12 can't even cast 3rd levels spells and has crazy low DC's. So, yes, it's better to have dex, but it seems you're confusing this E6 system and the archetypes contained within with a bunch of preconcieved notions about 3.5 in general.

[Callous]

I'm actually quite well familiar with the E6 system. I've ran it many times. A caster with 12 in his casting stat can cast level 2 spells, thats.. you know.. okay.. and he just avoids casting offensive spells requiring DC's.

You seem to be the one with the weak grasp of third edition mechanics.

And i'm not saying its impossible. I'm just saying he'll be pretty damn bad.
He'll be weak at his role as a sneak, a scout, a backstabber (Bad sneaking, bad two-weapon fighting if any, bad damage)

And he'll be weak at the role he's trying to get himself as a strength based person. His base attack bonus is bad, his defensive abilities **** with light armor and no good dex bonus.

And the damage advantage from strength? Shadow Blade? So one feat makes the dexterity Cutthroat superior in all ways. (3 and the bonuses of maneuvers/stances for the non-initiation scoundrel)

___________________________________

Theres also one other issue i've noticed now that i'm working on my Cutthroat (16 dex for the record, wish i could get it up to 18) i had added in all his maneuvers and all that when i suddenly realized.. he doesn't get that stuff until level 2.

I can understand the balance issues and all that. But it will be so weird when you play a level 1 character.. who'se only combat abilities are.. i stab him again, then suddenly.. level 2 and in the blink of an eye hes throwing 6 or more maneuvers around and has a unique martial stance at his command as well.

Gnorman have you considered doing it like this instead

1: Lesser archetype
2:
3: Medium Archetype
4:
5:
6: Greater Archetype

Now it looks weird in a sense, but theres actual a logical development.
The first archetype ability is gained after taking 1 level, the first!, the next requires 2 levels and then finally you get the final and (ideally) greatest archetype ability after you take 3 levels.

1, 2, 3. see? : )

I also have some specific comments on some classes but i'll save those for now.

[Gnorman]

Responses in bold.


I'm actually quite well familiar with the E6 system. I've ran it many times. A caster with 12 in his casting stat can cast level 2 spells, thats.. you know.. okay.. and he just avoids casting offensive spells requiring DC's.

A caster is required to have a certain score in his casting stat to access class features. A scoundrel is not. He becomes better at it, yes, but he is not required.

You seem to be the one with the weak grasp of third edition mechanics.

Please refrain from slighting other contributors to the thread.

And i'm not saying its impossible. I'm just saying he'll be pretty damn bad.
He'll be weak at his role as a sneak, a scout, a backstabber (Bad sneaking, bad two-weapon fighting if any, bad damage)

I can envision a high Strength scoundrel build that would excel at sneak attacking - get a flanking buddy and go to town with 5d6+6 damage (assuming a greatsword and 18 Strength). With at least a +12 to the attack roll, probably more like +14 or +15 - that's comparable to most warriors at that level. Take the Silencer archetype to throw some nasty poison on the blade, and you have a great debilitator and damager.

And he'll be weak at the role he's trying to get himself as a strength based person. His base attack bonus is bad, his defensive abilities **** with light armor and no good dex bonus.

Last time I checked, Strength increased your attack bonus just as much as Dexterity with Weapon Finesse. He is not as synergistic as a Dex-based scoundrel, true, but he is still competent at his chosen role.

And the damage advantage from strength? Shadow Blade? So one feat makes the dexterity Cutthroat superior in all ways. (3 and the bonuses of maneuvers/stances for the non-initiation scoundrel)

Think about it like this: a Strength-based scoundrel gets 2 to 4 feats more than a Dex-based scoundrel in this example, because he can go to town straight out of the box. That's a trade-off of its own. And archetypes with maneuvers will always tend to have an edge over those without, simply because of how valuable maneuvers are. Unfortunate reality.

___________________________________

Theres also one other issue i've noticed now that i'm working on my Cutthroat (16 dex for the record, wish i could get it up to 18) i had added in all his maneuvers and all that when i suddenly realized.. he doesn't get that stuff until level 2.

I can understand the balance issues and all that. But it will be so weird when you play a level 1 character.. who'se only combat abilities are.. i stab him again, then suddenly.. level 2 and in the blink of an eye hes throwing 6 or more maneuvers around and has a unique martial stance at his command as well.

Gnorman have you considered doing it like this instead

1: Lesser archetype
2:
3: Medium Archetype
4:
5:
6: Greater Archetype

Now it looks weird in a sense, but theres actual a logical development.
The first archetype ability is gained after taking 1 level, the first!, the next requires 2 levels and then finally you get the final and (ideally) greatest archetype ability after you take 3 levels.

1, 2, 3. see? : )

I also have some specific comments on some classes but i'll save those for now.

I have actually considered it doing it that way, and more and more I am leaning towards it.

[stack]

I've toyed with the idea of running a series of scenarios to playtest the classes (via pbp). Regular games move too slow to generate much feedback as to balance. Probably do two combats per levels, varying the goals and situations, not just a strait boss-rush.

Worthwhile idea?

[Wyntonian]

I have a question.

How do these interact with Prestige Classes? Would this project benefit from yourself or the community generation e6-specific PrC's?

[ForzaFiori]

I have a question.

How do these interact with Prestige Classes? Would this project benefit from yourself or the community generation e6-specific PrC's?

How would PrC's work with E6? None of them let you get into them without being at least level 6 (barring some shenanigans). Would the just be a single level, or would you have them start lower so that you enter them at lv 4 or something? Though that would limit how much either class would really define who you were... Part of the point of E6 was that you could play any class straight to 6, since they're all relatively the same power to that point.

[Eldest]

How would PrC's work with E6? None of them let you get into them without being at least level 6 (barring some shenanigans). Would the just be a single level, or would you have them start lower so that you enter them at lv 4 or something? Though that would limit how much either class would really define who you were... Part of the point of E6 was that you could play any class straight to 6, since they're all relatively the same power to that point.

Well, you take your PrC class at level five or six, and then you're done. But it's actually better than you'd think. Let's take a PrC that's generally considered craptastic, like Assassin. Specifically, the Death Attack. Now, all you have left to work with are feats, and everyone you will ever face is limited to 6 levels (generally). So it actually is a decent idea.

[ZeltArruin]

Well, you take your PrC class at level five or six, and then you're done. But it's actually better than you'd think. Let's take a PrC that's generally considered craptastic, like Assassin. Specifically, the Death Attack. Now, all you have left to work with are feats, and everyone you will ever face is limited to 6 levels (generally). So it actually is a decent idea.

I'd rather play a Cutthroat Scoundrel. If I'm reading things right, his death attack is DC 10+Class level+Int. Way better than 11+int.

[Eldest]

I'd rather play a Cutthroat Scoundrel. If I'm reading things right, his death attack is DC 10+Class level+Int. Way better than 11+int.

Yeah, which is why normal PrCs don't work with Gnorman's stuff. I meant with regular E6. One idea that was floated was having epic feats replace normal PrCs.

[ZeltArruin]

I've toyed with the idea of running a series of scenarios to playtest the classes (via pbp). Regular games move too slow to generate much feedback as to balance. Probably do two combats per levels, varying the goals and situations, not just a strait boss-rush.

Worthwhile idea?

I'd be interested in that.

[SecondRevan]

I'm interested as well.

[Eldest]

I would as well. Limited characterization, just a build and testing?

[Gnorman]

I have a question.

How do these interact with Prestige Classes? Would this project benefit from yourself or the community generation e6-specific PrC's?

I do eventually plan on creating prestige classes. But I've been thinking more along the lines of having prestige classes be two levels long, and go to level 8. Only for "epic" play. The best way to mimic a particular prestige class would be the "make your own archetype" method.


How would PrC's work with E6? None of them let you get into them without being at least level 6 (barring some shenanigans). Would the just be a single level, or would you have them start lower so that you enter them at lv 4 or something? Though that would limit how much either class would really define who you were... Part of the point of E6 was that you could play any class straight to 6, since they're all relatively the same power to that point.

There are early entry tricks and a few classes that only require level 3 or so, but yeah, generally PrCs don't work very well in E6 and will work even less well in my version.


Well, you take your PrC class at level five or six, and then you're done. But it's actually better than you'd think. Let's take a PrC that's generally considered craptastic, like Assassin. Specifically, the Death Attack. Now, all you have left to work with are feats, and everyone you will ever face is limited to 6 levels (generally). So it actually is a decent idea.

I did try and poach some of the iconic PrC abilities for a few archetypes, like Death Attack and Hide in Plain Sight.


I'd rather play a Cutthroat Scoundrel. If I'm reading things right, his death attack is DC 10+Class level+Int. Way better than 11+int.

This was due to a lack of specificity on my part. It is now corrected - 10 + half HD + Int modifier. So 13 + Int, basically.


Yeah, which is why normal PrCs don't work with Gnorman's stuff. I meant with regular E6. One idea that was floated was having epic feats replace normal PrCs.

Probably the best option, honestly. Grimsage Matt has some ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235122) on the subject, as I recall.

[stack]

Okay, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13363055#post13363055)is my playtest recruitment thread.

[stack]

Just running a little math on the Kinetic (Architect).

At level 6, you can surge to get up to level 8, plus your greater archetype bonus to make your effective manifester level as high as 9, which would grant a level 5 astral construct.

A level 5 astral construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) has: 23 AC, 29 STR, 68 HP, and two slams attacks (terrible saves though). Plus two abilities (because you took the boost construct feat) from menu B, with goodies like pounce and extra attack.

Worst case, you blow your roll and get, as a standard action for 6 PP, a level 3 construct. Get lucky and you get a wickedly powerful tank. And you extend the power for free. Seems like a mighty strong option considering you can do it 8+ times a day.

[stack]

Do classes with bonus archetype spells/powers get access to them at 1, or not until they get their archetype powers?

(Also, sorry for the triple-post, but they are spaced out over a week and on separate topics)

[Gnorman]

Just running a little math on the Kinetic (Architect).

At level 6, you can surge to get up to level 8, plus your greater archetype bonus to make your effective manifester level as high as 9, which would grant a level 5 astral construct.

A level 5 astral construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) has: 23 AC, 29 STR, 68 HP, and two slams attacks (terrible saves though). Plus two abilities (because you took the boost construct feat) from menu B, with goodies like pounce and extra attack.

Worst case, you blow your roll and get, as a standard action for 6 PP, a level 3 construct. Get lucky and you get a wickedly powerful tank. And you extend the power for free. Seems like a mighty strong option considering you can do it 8+ times a day.

Yeeeeeah... I shall have to tone that down, by gum.


Do classes with bonus archetype spells/powers get access to them at 1, or not until they get their archetype powers?

(Also, sorry for the triple-post, but they are spaced out over a week and on separate topics)

The intention was for them to have the bonus spells available at level 1.

[stack]

Yeah, the issue isn't with the surge or the boost, but stacking them together. Maybe make it an either/or choice. A fourth level construct is powerful, but that's part of your capstone.

I've got a scenario brewing that will abuse the ability to manifest from the construct's square, but it easier for a DM to abuse than a player.

[Eldest]

How odd would a "universal" archetype be? I've been trying to think of a way to adapt Incarnum to this system, but I couldn't, so I thought of making archetypes that any class could take.

Also, an Assassin feat chain. And a Shadowdancer one. These are meant as "prestige" feat chains, it is recomended that DMs think about letting characters take feats from more than one prestige feat chain. I have several more planned off the SRD prestige classes, at least. I want at least one option per class. Loremaster and Archmage are next.

Assassin
Assassin Novice [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 5 [Epic] Feats
Benefit: The character gains the Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#deathAttack) Ability, or, if she already has it, the DC is raised by 2.

Assassin Initiate [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 10 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice
Benefit: The character gains one more sneak attack die.

Assassin Veteran [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 15 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice, Assassin Initiate
Benefit: The character can prepare up to her Int. modifier of 1st level spells off the Assassin list, as Spell Like Abilities.

Assassin Master [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 20 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice, Assassin Initiate, Assassin Veteran
Benefit: The character gains the Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#assassinHideinPlainSight) ability.

Shadowdancer
Shadowdancer Novice [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 5 [Epic] Feats
Benefit: The character gains the Shadow Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#shadowIllusion) ability.

Shadowdancer Initiate [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 10 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice
Benefit: The character gains the ability to Shadow Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#shadowJump), with a maximum range of 20 feet. However, the character can jump up to 60 feet total in a day. In addition, the character can jump in intervals of 5 feet, 10 feet, 15 feet, or 20 feet at a time, instead of just 10 or 20 feet.

Shadowdancer Veteran [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 15 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice, Shadowdancer Initiate
Benefit: The character gains the ability to use the Summon Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#summonShadow) ability, with the following changes. The Shadow is no longer incorporeal, and it does not have the Create Spawn ability.

Shadowdancer Master [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 20 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice, Shadowdancer Initiate, Shadowdancer Veteran
Benefit: The character gains the Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight) ability.

[Gnorman]

How odd would a "universal" archetype be? I've been trying to think of a way to adapt Incarnum to this system, but I couldn't, so I thought of making archetypes that any class could take.

Also, an Assassin feat chain. And a Shadowdancer one. These are meant as "prestige" feat chains, it is recomended that DMs think about letting characters take feats from more than one prestige feat chain. I have several more planned off the SRD prestige classes, at least. I want at least one option per class. Loremaster and Archmage are next.

Assassin
Assassin Novice [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 5 [Epic] Feats
Benefit: The character gains the Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#deathAttack) Ability, or, if she already has it, the DC is raised by 2.

Assassin Initiate [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 10 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice
Benefit: The character gains one more sneak attack die.

Assassin Veteran [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 15 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice, Assassin Initiate
Benefit: The character can prepare up to her Int. modifier of 1st level spells off the Assassin list, as Spell Like Abilities.

Assassin Master [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 20 [Epic] Feats, Assassin Novice, Assassin Initiate, Assassin Veteran
Benefit: The character gains the Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#assassinHideinPlainSight) ability.

Shadowdancer
Shadowdancer Novice [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 5 [Epic] Feats
Benefit: The character gains the Shadow Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#shadowIllusion) ability.

Shadowdancer Initiate [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 10 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice
Benefit: The character gains the ability to Shadow Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#shadowJump), with a maximum range of 20 feet. However, the character can jump up to 60 feet total in a day. In addition, the character can jump in intervals of 5 feet, 10 feet, 15 feet, or 20 feet at a time, instead of just 10 or 20 feet.

Shadowdancer Veteran [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 15 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice, Shadowdancer Initiate
Benefit: The character gains the ability to use the Summon Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#summonShadow) ability, with the following changes. The Shadow is no longer incorporeal, and it does not have the Create Spawn ability.

Shadowdancer Master [Epic]
Prerequisites: Scoundrel level 6 or Subliminal level 6, 20 [Epic] Feats, Shadowdancer Novice, Shadowdancer Initiate, Shadowdancer Veteran
Benefit: The character gains the Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight) ability.

I think Incarnum could be adapted using its own base class. D8 hit die, medium BAB, strong Fort save. Archetypes could be: a feral, mobile warrior, a heavily-armored forgemaster, a cruel and domineering necromancer, a divinely-inspired healer, and a middle-of-the-road archetype devoted to meldshaping only. I'll see about putting one together. Honestly, once that's done, I may have to put together separate base classes for all the other subsystems and give them their own section: Binders, Warlocks, Truenamers, and Shadowcasters. Am I missing any? This would almost completely invalidate the Sage as a class. But I'm not exactly sad about that, it still needs a complete overhaul.

In addition, Eldest, I really like the feats. I've tried to include a few prestige classes as archetypes, but this is a way for any archetype to dabble in the field without committing themselves whole hog.

EDIT:


The Shaper


HD: d8
Class Skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Soul Melds|Essentia|Chakra Binds

1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Meldshaping, Lesser Archetype Power|2|1|0

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Chakra Bind (crown)|3|2|1

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Moderate Archetype Power|3|3|1

4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Chakra Bind (feet, hands)|4|4|1

5th|+3|+4|+1|+1||4|5|1

6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|Greater Archetype Power|4|6|2[/table]

Proficiencies: The shaper is proficient with simple weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Meldshaping: The shaper may shape soulmelds drawn from the appropriate list for his archetype. The DC of the shaper's soulmeld, if appropriate, is equal to 10 + the number of points of essentia invested in the soulmeld + the shaper's Constitution modifier. His meldshaper level is equal to his class level. The shaper may only shape a number of soulmelds at any one time equal to his Constitution modifier or the maximum appropriate for his level (given in the above table), whichever is lower. The shaper gains access to the appropriate pool of essentia for his level, which he may reinvest as a swift action. The shaper must get a good night's rest and spend one hour meditating to shape his soulmelds for the day.

At 1st level, a shaper's essentia capacity is one. At 6th level, his essentia capacity increases to 2.

Archetypes

Azure Adept

An azure adept may shape soulmelds from the incarnate list.

Delver

A delver may shape soulmelds from the incarnate list, and any with the evil descriptor.

Oversoul

An oversoul may shape soulmelds from the incarnate list.

Soulforger

A soulforger may shape soulmelds from the soulborn list.

Wildspeaker

A wildspeaker may shape soulmelds from the totemist list.


The Warlock

HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Invocations Known

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocations (Least)|1

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Protective Patron|2

3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate), Eldritch Blast 2d6|3

4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Bound by Blood|4

5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Eldritch Blast 3d6|5

6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Archetype Power (Greater), Invocations (Lesser)|6[/table]

Proficiencies: The warlock is proficient with light armor and simple weapons. He does not suffer any arcane spell failure when casting in light armor.

Protective Patron: At 2nd level, the warlock gains damage reduction x/-, where x is equal to half his class level.

Bound by Blood: At 4th level, the warlock gains resistance 5 to his choice of two of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic.

Archetypes:


Changeling

Bonus Invocations
Least: Beguiling Influence
Lesser: Charm


Dokaal

Lesser Archetype Power: A dokaal, in lieu of the eldritch blast ability, gains a breath weapon usable at will as a standard action. The damage of the breath weapon scales at the same rate as the normal eldritch blast ability, but does fire damage. The breath weapon may be either a fifteen foot cone or a thirty foot line. A successful Reflex save (DC equal to 10 + half the dokaal's level + the dokaal's Constitution modifier) halves the damage. A dokaal does not receive eldritch essence or blast shape invocations, but at any point where they would normally receive one, they may instead choose a dragonfire adept breath effect (they may select breath effects that have a minimum level of two even at level one). In addition, a dokaal gains a bonus to natural armor equal to half his level.

Bonus Invocations
Least: Draconic Knowledge
Lesser: Draconic Flight


Faustian

Bonus Invocations
Least: Baleful Utterance
Lesser: Curse of Despair


Gloombound

Bonus Invocations
Least: Summon Swarm
Lesser: Walk Unseen


Herald of the Beyond

Bonus Invocations
Least: See the Unseen
Lesser: Flee the Scene

[Dead_Jester]

As far as other subsystems go, there is also the aura abilities from the Marshall and the dragon themed variant (AFB right now...), but those are somewhat already covered by the zealot, and the idea is perhaps too passive in design to base an entire class on.

As far as invalidating the sage as a class, I don't think that is too much of a problem, as it always felt like the least coherent one of them all and, IMO, it suffers from being too unfocused.

[Gnorman]

As far as other subsystems go, there is also the aura abilities from the Marshall and the dragon themed variant (AFB right now...), but those are somewhat already covered by the zealot, and the idea is perhaps too passive in design to base an entire class on.

As far as invalidating the sage as a class, I don't think that is too much of a problem, as it always felt like the least coherent one of them all and, IMO, it suffers from being too unfocused.

I think between the Shaper, the Binder, the Warlock, the Truenamer, and the Shadowcaster, I'll have my hands full. I might replace the Shadowcaster (which is admittedly a very niche pick) with a generic ToB base class.

[stack]

Is the banshee's lesser archetype of dealing CHA x level sonic in a 15' burst too powerful? Obviously it scales as you crank your charisma, but it should be feasible to get 22 CHA by level 6 (or higher, getting a boost via spell), giving you 36 damage, no save, no roll. You get that much CHA and it turns into a maximized spell, centered on you.

Should it be fort half, or be 1d6 per level + CHA mod? I like that the classes get powerful abilities that are worth using, but it can be a fine line. I bring this up because in my playtest the banshee opponent is pretty nasty (though throwing 3 level 2s against 5 level 1s is just mean to start with).

[Infernally Clay]

You know, I love what you've done. Often I'm stuck trying to make an interesting 20 level base class, but E6 and your template would allow for a much more condensed and flavoured class. So this gives me a few ideas.

[AmberVael]

*snip*

Hm. Honestly, I'm not sure giving Soulborn its own archetype is such a hot idea. They have a much worse meld selection, really. But you've not completed it, so I suppose you may have something good in mind.

On warlock- I have never been a fan of dividing their invocation selection, but I can understand the motivation. I think dividing into Essence/Blast Shape/Other is one too many categories though, for sure- especially with how few blast shapes (particularly useful blast shapes) there are. I suppose it does make the Dragonfire Adept interpretation easier, but it really cuts down hard on build selection. You'd see a lot of warlocks with Eldritch Glaive/Eldritch Chain.

I'd probably recommend two categories at maximum, but personally I think keeping them as one category would be preferable. Just gives more build possibilities, really, which I always think of as a plus (one of the reasons I've always preferred Warlock over DFA). I suppose you could just take these ideas and make a more 'other invocation' heavy archetype though.

[Eldest]

Is the banshee's lesser archetype of dealing CHA x level sonic in a 15' burst too powerful? Obviously it scales as you crank your charisma, but it should be feasible to get 22 CHA by level 6 (or higher, getting a boost via spell), giving you 36 damage, no save, no roll. You get that much CHA and it turns into a maximized spell, centered on you.

Should it be fort half, or be 1d6 per level + CHA mod? I like that the classes get powerful abilities that are worth using, but it can be a fine line. I bring this up because in my playtest the banshee opponent is pretty nasty (though throwing 3 level 2s against 5 level 1s is just mean to start with).

As the player whose character is dead because of this, I think it's really because of such a large power gap between when you get your archetype and when you don't. I mean, even getting my archtype would give me the option to attack from range, by throwing a mindblade.

[Gnorman]

Is the banshee's lesser archetype of dealing CHA x level sonic in a 15' burst too powerful? Obviously it scales as you crank your charisma, but it should be feasible to get 22 CHA by level 6 (or higher, getting a boost via spell), giving you 36 damage, no save, no roll. You get that much CHA and it turns into a maximized spell, centered on you.

Should it be fort half, or be 1d6 per level + CHA mod? I like that the classes get powerful abilities that are worth using, but it can be a fine line. I bring this up because in my playtest the banshee opponent is pretty nasty (though throwing 3 level 2s against 5 level 1s is just mean to start with).

Actually, I think having both a Fortitude save for half and making it 1d6 per level + CHA would be reasonable. That's still a hefty chunk of damage that the banshee can deal multiple times per day, in addition to their other abilities. And not rolling for damage kind of goes against the spirit of the game, I suppose.


You know, I love what you've done. Often I'm stuck trying to make an interesting 20 level base class, but E6 and your template would allow for a much more condensed and flavoured class. So this gives me a few ideas.

Thanks! That was one of the main reasons I decided to go with the E6 project - significantly less work.


Hm. Honestly, I'm not sure giving Soulborn its own archetype is such a hot idea. They have a much worse meld selection, really. But you've not completed it, so I suppose you may have something good in mind.

On warlock- I have never been a fan of dividing their invocation selection, but I can understand the motivation. I think dividing into Essence/Blast Shape/Other is one too many categories though, for sure- especially with how few blast shapes (particularly useful blast shapes) there are. I suppose it does make the Dragonfire Adept interpretation easier, but it really cuts down hard on build selection. You'd see a lot of warlocks with Eldritch Glaive/Eldritch Chain.

I'd probably recommend two categories at maximum, but personally I think keeping them as one category would be preferable. Just gives more build possibilities, really, which I always think of as a plus (one of the reasons I've always preferred Warlock over DFA). I suppose you could just take these ideas and make a more 'other invocation' heavy archetype though.

1. The soulborn's melds aren't great, yeah, but it's mostly the fact that they have a poor meldshaping progression that hurts them. I plan on making up for it in other ways, don't worry.

2. I could feasibly cut down the invocations to standard (or slightly above) and give each archetype bonus invocations, like DMofDarkness did. I think the warlock should, at 6th level, have about six invocations, not four. But I see your point about opening up the build options.


As the player whose character is dead because of this, I think it's really because of such a large power gap between when you get your archetype and when you don't. I mean, even getting my archtype would give me the option to attack from range, by throwing a mindblade.

More ammunition for making archetype abilities available at 1st, 3rd, and 6th level rather than 2nd, 4th, and 6th.

In fact, here's my (sort of) official ruling on the subject: though it will not be reflected in the original class threads or the first page of this thread until I have a chance to go back and edit all of them, archetype abilities are now available at 1st, 3rd, and 6th level.

[AmberVael]

2. I could feasibly cut down the invocations to standard (or slightly above) and give each archetype bonus invocations, like DMofDarkness did. I think the warlock should, at 6th level, have about six invocations, not four. But I see your point about opening up the build options.

Oh, I'm all for more invocations. At least one per level has always sounded much more fair to me as well. I just don't think they should be subdivided quite so much, though I can see how it would potentially open up balance issues if you didn't. Archetype bonus invocations might do the trick.

[stack]

Hurray for 1st level archetypes! I fully support this change. I presume level 1 & 2 (and 3/4) just get flipped?

[Gnorman]

Hurray for 1st level archetypes! I fully support this change. I presume level 1 & 2 (and 3/4) just get flipped?

Doubtful, as a lot of those 1st level abilities are quite crucial to the function of the class (and a few LAAs key off of a main class feature). Here's how I see it happening: Lesser Archetype Power moves to 1st level. Previous 1st level abilities stay the same. 3rd and 4th abilities (i.e., whatever + Moderate Archetype Ability) switch. I add new 2nd level abilities to every class.

[stack]

Ah, that's a bigger job. I hold off on updating my playtest group than.

[Gnorman]

Ah, that's a bigger job. I hold off on updating my playtest group than.

Indeed. That's why I said it was only sort of official - it will be actually official once I've done all the relevant work.

[Eldest]

I'd suggest something to give Aspirants the ability to use their buffs and such faster in combat for a second level ability. I'm finding I don't use the psionics nearly as much as I want to, because I need to attack instead.

[Gnorman]

I'd suggest something to give Aspirants the ability to use their buffs and such faster in combat for a second level ability. I'm finding I don't use the psionics nearly as much as I want to, because I need to attack instead.

Possibly something along the lines of "An aspirant may expend psionic focus to manifest a single power as a swift action?"

My gut instinct is that it is perhaps a bit too powerful for 2nd level, but it does totally support the play style of the class. I'll think on it.

Oh, and: I will be on vacation (and without regular internet access) for the next two weeks. Don't expect me to make a lot of headway on the project until I return. I'll still be here in spirit, though.

[ptdapen]

I just wanted to lay down a thought on the NPC Peasant class, of all things. Basically, my issue is with the warrior's moderate archetype power. 4 HP per hit die seems a little high. Assuming max health per level, this puts them on par with hunters. That may not be too bad. However, many DMs seem to like running average health per level. By the way the system works, this would mean that a warrior peasant gains HP each level equal to a sentinel.

Health Progression (Warrior)
4 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 2 + (4*6) = 40
Health Progression (Sentinel)
12 + 6 + 7 + 6 + 7 + 6 = 44
Health Progression (Gladiator)
10 + 5 + 6 + 5 + 6 + 5 = 37

Of course, all of this ignores constitution modifiers. I'll assume that many combat PCs will have a higher Cont score than an NPC. Still, I just wanted to bring this up.

[Dead_Jester]

Possibly something along the lines of "An aspirant may expend psionic focus to manifest a single power as a swift action?"

My gut instinct is that it is perhaps a bit too powerful for 2nd level, but it does totally support the play style of the class. I'll think on it.

What about only for powers with a target of You or cast on yourself? You still wouldn't be able to double cast if you want to fight, and it would reinforce your role as a combatant more than a caster.

[Gnorman]

What about only for powers with a target of You or cast on yourself? You still wouldn't be able to double cast if you want to fight, and it would reinforce your role as a combatant more than a caster.

Dammit, that should have read "a single power with a range of personal".

[kanachi]

I'm looking at the sage and is it just me or are they almost entirely useless at level 1? I know things start to get a bit better at level 2, but it seems to me that you have to slog through level 1 doing almost nothing useful in combat. I'm not saying that a Sage should be a ninja, but every class should offer something interesting in combat. Maybe give them an aura or something?

[stack]

I'm looking at the sage and is it just me or are they almost entirely useless at level 1? I know things start to get a bit better at level 2, but it seems to me that you have to slog through level 1 doing almost nothing useful in combat. I'm not saying that a Sage should be a ninja, but every class should offer something interesting in combat. Maybe give them an aura or something?
The archetype powers are getting moved to one, so no problem there.

[SecondRevan]

Gnorman has said that the Sage needs to complete overhaul, and he is in the process of creating classes to replace nearly all of the Sage's archetypes (though I hope the Polyglot survives in some form, as I love the idea)

[stack]

Hmm, didact would work pretty well as a base class, with archetypes base on some of the truenaming prestige classes. And the polyglot would be a good archetype there as well.

Hmm, polyglot, summoning focused, and...self buffing gish? Could work.Not sure what you could bind effectively in E6, but maybe you could make weak outsiders similar to the tyrant's henchmen? Or rely heavily on quasits, imps, lemures and lantern archons....

[Gnorman]

My current plan for the Sage is to offer him limited spellcasting (through SLAs, somewhat similar to the factotum). Prepared casting with very limited spells per day, but he'd be able to cast any spell on any mage list. Represents his wide range of knowledge. I am also planning to add an aura-like ability, that will give minor bonuses to allies representing a Sage's knowledge of anatomy, biology, et cetera. Bonuses to hit, damage, to confirm criticals, to resist the spell-like abilities. Or perhaps it may gain the ability to mimic the qualities and abilities of certain monsters, depending on each individual sage's specialty.

The Polyglot and Tactician are guaranteed to stay as archetypes, but the Didact, Caller, and Occultist are likely to be made obsolete by the new planned base classes. I do plan on bringing back the Anatomist at the very least.

[Eldest]

Remember how I said I was going to write up Archmage and Loremaster abilities? I may have forgotten...
So here's a preliminary idea for both. The Archmage will gain abilities that enhance pure magical skill: I'm thinking some counterspelling love, a boost against SR, the ability to absorb a few spell levels a day and use them yourself, and (say) they don't have to increase the casting time of their spells when they add metamagic. It doesn't pull from the actual Archmage PrC but (in my mind) gives the idea of a master of arcana itself. Best of all, this can be used by all the Mages.
Loremaster, on the other hand, seems like a Blue and Black thing. So they gain the Lore ability, with a bonus on the roll equal to the number of Loremaster feats they have, as well as the ability to Identify items. That's all the first feat. Then the ability to heal themselves somewhat if the need arises, a large bonus on Knowledge checks (and you can try them untrained), and finally the ability to get two spells added to your spells known list, one from each "allied" color. Obviously, this last bit will require careful wording; at the very least, they will have to be 2nd level and under, not 3rd level. Also, the Sage will need to be watched, to see if it will make this version of the prestige class invalid.

Of course, I'll need to write these up in the format I made for the last two. I'm just too tired right now to do so.

[Gnorman]

I have returned! Here's what's on the docket for the next couple of weeks.

1. Revamp all classes to adhere to the new 1st-level archetype ability change. This may take some time.

2. Finish the Warlock/Binder/Truenamer/Meldshaper/Sublime Way classes. This may also take some time.

3. Finish the Sage overhaul. Replace the Mystic archetype of the White Mage and the Chaos Child archetype of the Red Mage, as neither of them are to my liking. I may review the White Mage in general, though I feel that after the last round of changes I made to it, it is closer to my vision.

4. Check in with the playtests (yes, I do keep up on those!) to see how things are going, what their thoughts are, and evaluate/implement their conclusions.

5. Monster archetypes.

Beyond that, who knows? I seem to always find a way to extend the project. I may, however need to start a new thread.

EDIT: Below is a running tally of the changes I am making to the classes as I go forward.

Subliminal: Collective Unconscious added at 2nd level. Microkinesis moved to 4th level. Untouchable's Lesser Ability changed so that he can actually technically use it, while his Moderate Ability is changed to apply to any Reflex save. Deadmind's Lesser and Moderate abilities are switched, as the original Lesser had very little application at 1st level (i.e., before Detect Thoughts and creatures with natural telepathy appear), while the original Moderate is a nice bonus against low-level classics like Sleep or Charm.

Kinetic: (In)Constant Companion added as a semi-placeholder ability (why is coming up with abilities for this class so dang hard?) Focused Surge completely removed and replaced with Focused Student, which gives bonuses based on the discipline selected instead of the not-quite-thematic pseudo-Wilder ability. Gravitic's Greater ability now able to immobilize non-flying creatures, but has a save added and its duration reduced. Telephasm's Greater ability. Transmigrant's Moderate ability changed to a swift action from immediate. Architect significantly toned down - he no longer gets twinned Astral Constructs, but still gains a +1 bonus to his ML, allowing him to make 4th level minions. The removal of Focused Surge should reduce the abuse of that ability. This one still needs some work.

Esoteric: Personal Mantra added at 2nd level, Unlock the Self moved to 4th. Otherwise unchanged.

Empath: Manifesting stat changed to Intelligence, skill points per level reduced. Gained Social Maven at 1st level, which allows him to maintain proficiency in Charisma-related endeavors without actually having to invest in Charisma. Archetypes remain unchanged.

Aspirant: Body and Mind As One added as the 2nd level power. Bucking the trend, Martial Training stays at level one, but 3rd and 4th are switched as expected.

Green Mage: Blossom and Bloom added at 2nd level. Shapeshifting changed to a standard action. Plant forms added to Chloromancer, vermin forms added to Subterranean (as well as tremorsense), acid damage added to Ophidian. Elementalist must sacrifice use of its companion to gain the mobility/speed bonuses. Wildling overhauled, losing the relatively useless animal type ability and gaining the ability to summon minions even if shifted.

Black Mage: Minion Mastery added at 2nd level, 3rd & 4th abilities switched. Necromancer's Lesser Archetype changed as a result, they can now summon undead with Summon Monster. Pestilents are no longer immune to supernatural disease, but those they can transmit have their incubations reduced to a matter of rounds. Void cultist gain longer, stronger tentacle attacks and eventually can cause negative levels with them.

Blue Mage: gets Bend the Will at 2nd level, regains stealth abilities. Counterspell Mastery gets a small boost. Mountebank changed slightly since Bend the Will duplicated one of its abilities.

Red Mage: casting stat changed to Intelligence. Martial Training added. Skill points reduced to 2 per level, 3rd/4th abilities switched.

White Mage: Healing Hands added. Healer archetype overhauled - instead of granting minor circumstantial bonuses, it now makes the party very hard to kill. Exorcist now becomes immune to mind-affecting effects from undead and evil outsiders.

Poet: Banshee's lesser archetype power reduced to 1d6 per level with a save for half. Eye of Newt moved to second level.

Scoundrel: Exit Strategy added at 2nd level (though it was technically already present, just part of Underhanded Tactics). Underhanded Tactics gets a small boost.

Engineer: The Knack moved to 2nd level, Jury Rigging to 4th. Otherwise unchanged.

Brawler: Elusive Target moved to 2nd, Strike the Heavens added at 4th.

Gladiator: Weapon of Choice moved to 2nd, Unorthodox Maneuvers added to 4th (shamefully copying the Streamlined Compendium). Riddle of Steel overhauled (again, taken straight from the SC). Brute archetype given a few additional bonuses.

Peasant: Magewright archetype added, Hometown Advantage ability added at 5th level.

STILL ON THE DOCKET FOR ARCHETYPE OVERHAUL: Hunter, Sentinel, Zealot, Noble, & Sage.

[Gnorman]

Hey so I made a Dragon class



The Dragon

HD: d12
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 6 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Racial Traits, Breath Weapon

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Dragon Magic

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate)

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Weathered Hide

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Take Flight

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Archetype Power (Greater), Shimmering Scales[/table]

Proficiencies: The dragon is proficient with no weapons and no armor, other than his own natural attacks.

Racial Traits: The dragon is both a class and a race (i.e, if you select this class, you may not select a race other than the dragon listed below). This class may only be taken at 1st level, though the dragon may multiclass out of it if desired. The dragon is a medium-sized quadruped of the dragon type. It possesses a 30 foot base land speed, darkvision out to 60', lowlight vision, and a racial immunity to paralysis and magic sleep effects. It has a +2 racial bonus to Constitution and selects one of the following bloodlines, which: give it a second attribute bonus, determine the type of damage that its breath weapon does, and add three additional class skills.

Black: +2 Dexterity, acid damage; Hide, Move Silently, Swim.
Blue: +2 Intelligence, electricity damage; Bluff, Hide, Spellcraft.
Brass: +2 Dexterity, fire damage; Bluff, Gather Information, Survival.
Bronze: +2 Strength, electricity damage; Disguise, Swim, Survival.
Copper: +2 Intelligence, acid damage; Bluff, Hide, Jump.
Gold: +2 Charisma, fire damage; Disguise, Heal, Swim.
Green +2 Wisdom, acid damage; Bluff, Hide, Move Silently.
Red: +2 Charisma, fire damage; Appraise, Bluff, Jump.
Silver: +2 Wisdom, cold damage; Bluff, Disguise, Jump.
White: +2 Strength, cold damage; Hide, Move Silently, Swim.

In addition to the above racial modifiers, the dragon possesses a single bite attack at 1d8 damage. At 3rd level, he gains two claw attacks at 1d6 damage. At 5th level, he gains a tail slap attack at 1d8 damage. The dragon also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his hit dice.

Breath Weapon: The dragon receives a breath weapon that does 1d6 damage for every hit dice he has in either a 15 foot cone or a 30 foot line. A successful Reflex save halves the damage, with the DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the dragon's hit dice + the dragon's Constitution modifier. Once used, he must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.

Dragon Magic: The dragon casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of two-thirds his level (minimum of one). However, he must choose one of the five mage classes (Black, Blue, Green, Red, and White), and may only learn spells off of the spell list of the mage he chooses. He may not select spells given as bonus spells by archetypes.

Weathered Hide: The dragon gains damage reduction 5/magic, and gains resistance 10 to the same energy type that its breath weapon deals.

Take Flight: The dragon gains a 30 foot fly speed with average maneuverability.

Shimmering Scales: The dragon gains spell resistance 15.


Archetypes


Ascendant
Lesser: An ascendant may select a single cleric domain. When he becomes capable of casting spells, he adds the 1st and 2nd level spells of that domain to his list of spells known. He may also add Heal and Spellcraft to his list of class skills.
Moderate: An ascendant may now turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of his level. He may do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
Greater: An ascendant gains a bonus equal to his Charisma modifier (if positive) on all saving throws, and may smite an enemy once per encounter with a normal melee attack. The smite attack gains a bonus equal to the ascendant's Charisma modifier, and deals additional damage equal to the ascendant's level if it connects.


Fundamental
Lesser: A fundamental rolls d8s for his breath weapon rather than d6s, and gains a +2 bonus to its DC.
Moderate: A fundamental gains a 10 foot bonus to his base land speed. Once he becomes capable of flight, his flight speed increases by 10 feet and his maneuverability increases to good.
Greater: A fundamental's Weathered Hide ability now conveys immunity to the element instead of resistance 10. His Shimmering Scales ability conveys spell resistance 17 instead of 15.


Loredrake
Lesser: A loredrake gains a single bonus feat, which must be either a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a spell focus. A loredrake adds Decipher Script and Spellcraft to his list of class skills.
Moderate: A loredrake may select a second mage class to draw his spells known from, and gains an extra spell known per spell level.
Greater: A loredrake's caster level is equal to his full level, rather than two-thirds. This does not affect his spells known or spells per day.


Scaled Stalker
Lesser: A scaled stalker gains the sneak attack progression of a rogue of half his level, and may add Disable Device, Hide, Open Lock, and Move Silently to his list of class skills. He also gains the Scent ability and Track as a bonus feat.
Moderate: A scaled stalker gains Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
Greater: A scaled stalker's natural armor bonus is now considered a deflection bonus. His Scent range doubles and he gains the Swift Tracker ability of an 8th-level ranger.


War Wyrm
Lesser: The natural weapons of a war wyrm do damage as if he was one size larger than he actually is. He may add Climb, Jump, and Swim to his list of class skills.
Moderate: A war wyrm gains a bonus fighter feat, and qualifies for feats as if he was a fighter of his own level. Every 24 hours, he may change this bonus feat to any other fighter feat for which he qualifies.
Greater: The damage reduction offered by a war wyrm's Weathered Hide ability can no longer be overcome by any means.

[ZeltArruin]

Hey so I made a Dragon class

I love it. Touches on every kind of dragon I can think of. Bloody good work.

[stack]

Bah, now I need to find a way to get to play one!

[Infernally Clay]

Bah, now I need to find a way to get to play one!

If there's a way for the dragons to assume a human form, I may run a gestalt E6 game - one side human, one side dragon. That would be awesome.

[Eldest]

Giving them Alternative Form wouldn't be bad, because the only real difference is that you can look human like the rest of the group. Also, I'd suggest something like the Hoard ability from this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10996288&postcount=3) (asking first), so that they have something to do with any wealth they gather. A pair of ideas to make dragons function better in a party.

But that thing's bloody brilliant! Now I want to try one out.

[Gnorman]

If there's a way for the dragons to assume a human form, I may run a gestalt E6 game - one side human, one side dragon. That would be awesome.


Giving them Alternative Form wouldn't be bad, because the only real difference is that you can look human like the rest of the group. Also, I'd suggest something like the Hoard ability from this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10996288&postcount=3) (asking first), so that they have something to do with any wealth they gather. A pair of ideas to make dragons function better in a party.

But that thing's bloody brilliant! Now I want to try one out.

Alternate form is something I definitely toyed with. Perhaps, and I'm just kind of spitballing here, that instead of saying "you can't pick a race" at the beginning, the race you pick is your alternate form?

And I definitely agree that dragons need something to do with all that money.

[Gnorman]

A trio of Greek mythological creatures for you today...


Gorgon
(Hunter Archetype)

Racial Traits: A gorgon is a medium-sized monstrous humanoid with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A gorgon possesses a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, Charisma, and the Bluff and Disguise skills, but also has a -2 racial penalty to Strength. Gorgons are immune to poisons and venoms created by reptilian creatures, including the snakes that make up their hair. A gorgon's automatic languages are Common and Abyssal.
Archetype Power (Lesser): As a swift action, a gorgon can pluck a snake from her hair and string it on a bow or load it into a crossbow, as a normal arrow or bolt. The snake does the same amount of damage as any other arrow or bolt, but also applies an injury poison if it connects and does damage. The initial and secondary damage is 1d2 Strength. The damage increases to 1d4 Strength at 3rd level, and 1d6 Strength at 6th level. A successful Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the gorgon's level + the gorgon's Constitution modifier) negates the poison.
Archetype Power (Moderate): The poison of a gorgon's snake-hair arrows now burn with acid as well, and deal an additional 1d6 acid damage if they connect, even if the poison is saved against. In addition, any creature successfully damaging the gorgon in melee suffers 1d6 acid damage as well. The gorgon gains acid resistance 10 and immunity to all poisons, and her snake-hair arrows gain a +1 enhancement bonus.
Archetype Power (Greater): As a standard action, a gorgon can attempt to petrify a target with 30 feet for 1d3 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the gorgon's level + the gorgon's Charisma modifier) negates the petrification.


Minotaur
(Gladiator Archetype)

Racial Traits: A minotaur is a medium-sized monstrous humanoid with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A minotaurs possesses a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Constitution, and the Search and Survival skills, but also has a -2 racial penalty to Intelligence. A minotaur possesses the Powerful Build quality as well as a natural gore attack that deals 1d8 damage (20/x3). A minotaur's automatic languages are Common and Giant.
Archetype Power (Lesser): On a charge, a minotaur's gore attack deals an additional 1d8 damage for every two levels he possesses, to a maximum of 4d8. A minotaur may designate his gore attack as his Weapon of Choice, and may have it enchanted as if it were a masterwork weapon. In addition, a minotaur gains the Scent ability and Track as a bonus feat.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A minotaur may no longer be caught flat-footed and becomes immune to confusion.
Archetype Power (Greater): As a standard action, a minotaur may snort loudly in an attempt to disorient his enemies, causing all creatures within 10 feet to make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the minotaur's level + the minotaur's Constitution modifier) or be deafened and confused for one round.


Nymph
(Green Mage Archetype)

Racial Traits: A nymph is a medium-sized fey with a 30' base land speed and low-light vision. A nymph possesses a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, Charisma, and the Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature) skills, but also has a -2 racial penalty to Constitution. A nymph's automatic languages are Common and Sylvan.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A nymph's spellcasting is based upon Charisma, rather than Wisdom, and she gains the Wild Empathy ability of a druid of her level.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A nymph gains DR X/cold iron, where X is equal to her Charisma modifier, and a deflection bonus to her armor class equal to her Charisma modifier as long as she is in her natural form.
Archetype Power (Greater): As a standard action, a nymph may attempt to stun one opponent within 30 feet for 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the nymph's level + the nymph's Charisma modifier) negates the stunning effect.

Bonus Spells:
1: Charm Person, Sleep
2: Eagle's Splendor, Glitterdust
3: Deep Slumber, Suggestion
Capstone SLA: Dimension Door or Dominate Person

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Battle Dancer
(Brawler Archetype)


http://www.satiro.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/95054.jpg


Archetype Power (Lesser): A battle dancer may add his Charisma Bonus as a dodge bonus to his AC in place of the normal INT or WIS. In addition, he may take an additional 5ft.step per round as an immediate action
Archetype Power (Moderate): Once per day for every two class levels he possesses (rounded down) a battle dancer can use a Dervish Dance. This is identical to the dervish dance (see complete warrior) but it works with unarmed strikes as well. Difficult Terrain no longer affects a Battle Dancer.
Archetype Power (Greater): A thousand Cuts, once per day. Whenever a Battle Dancer provokes an attack of opportunity for moving out of a threatened area and is missed, he gains an attack of opportunity against the attacker.

[Gnorman]

A trio of classic horror staples:


Lich
(Black Mage Archetype)

Racial Traits: A lich is a medium-sized undead (with the living dead subtype, see below) with a 30' base land speed. A lich possesses a +2 racial bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and the Search and Spot skills, but also possesses a -2 racial penalty to Dexterity.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A lich possesses a phylactery, which is a vessel that holds his soul. This vessel has the same properties a lich's phylactery (Tiny size, 40 hit points, 20 hardness, and a break DC of 40), though the lich begins play with one. If the lich is reduced to -10 hit points, there is a 10% chance per the lich's level that he is resurrected at the phylactery's location 24 hours later. If the phylactery is destroyed, the lich does not immediately die, but may no longer be resurrected unless he crafts a new phylactery. Crafting a new phylactery requires one day, 250 gp, and 200 XP per level of the lich.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A lich may perform a melee touch attack in order to paralyze a target - if the touch attack is successful, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the lich's level + the lich's Charisma modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds. In addition, the lich gains resistance 10 to cold and electricity.
Archetype Power (Greater): A lich gains DR 5/bludgeoning and magic, as well as a +4 bonus on saves against mind-affecting and polymorph effects.

Bonus Spells:
1: Disguise Self, Magic Aura
2: Make Whole, Obscure Object
3: Arcane Sight, Glyph of Warding
Capstone SLA: Lesser Globe of Invulnerability or Scrying


Vampire
(Noble Archetype)

Racial Traits: A vampire is a medium-sized undead (of the living dead subtype, see below) with a base land speed of 30'. A vampire possesses a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Charisma, and the Bluff and Sense Motive skills, but suffers from a -2 racial penalty to Constitution. A vampire possesses a single natural slam attack at 1d8 damage.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A vampire gains the ability to take the form of a bat or a wolf as a standard action. This functions as the Alternate Form ability. In these forms, the vampire loses his slam attack and the dominate ability he gains at 6th level. At 5th level, the vampire may take the form of a dire bat or dire wolf as well.
Archetype Power (Moderate): Whenever a vampire successfully does damage with its slam attack, it gains 5 hit points. In addition, a vampire gains damage reduction 5/silver and fast healing 2 as long as they are not in direct sunlight.
Archetype Power (Greater): As a standard action, a vampire may attempt to dominate a target within 30 feet. The target must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the vampire's level + the vampire's Charisma modifier) or fall under the vampire's influence as if affected by a Dominate Person spell (caster level 7th) for 1d4 rounds. In addition, if a vampire scores a critical hit with its slam attack, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the vampire's level + the vampire's Charisma modifier) or suffer 1d4 Constitution drain.


Werewolf
(Brawler Archetype)

Racial Traits: A werewolf is a medium-sized humanoid (of the shapechanger subtype) with a 30' land speed and low-light vision. A werewolf gains a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, Wisdom, and the Listen and Spot skills, but suffers from a -2 racial penalty to Intelligence. A werewolf also possesses the Scent ability.
Archetype Power (Lesser): As a standard action, the werewolf can take the form of a wolf, as the Alternate Form ability. At 5th level, he can also take the form of a dire wolf. In addition, a werewolf may use his Constitution modifier to determine the bonuses he gains from his Fight Smarter and Harder ability, instead of Intelligence or Wisdom, and his natural attacks deal piercing and slashing damage.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A werewolf may assume a hybrid form once per encounter as a swift action. In the hybrid form, he gains a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, damage reduction 5/silver, and his unarmed attacks deal damage as if he was one size larger. The werewolf can maintain the hybrid form for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his modified Constitution modifier.
Archetype Power (Greater): A werewolf may howl balefully as a standard action, causing all opponents within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the werewolf's level + the werewolf's Constitution modifier) or be frightened for 1d4 rounds. In addition, when in hybrid form, a werewolf gains fast healing equal to his Constitution modifier.

Living Dead Subtype:

Creatures with the living dead subtype are closer to life than their other undead counterparts. They differ from undead in the following ways:
- Living dead possess a Constitution score. Subsequently, they are no longer immune to effects that require Fortitude saves and use their Constitution score for Concentration checks.
- Living dead are not immune to mind-affecting effects.
- Living dead are subject to death from massive damage, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, and stunning.
- Living dead are not destroyed at 0 hit points, but become disabled instead. From -1 to -9 hit points, they are considered "dying". At -10 hit points, they are destroyed.
- Living dead possess +4 turn resistance.

Living dead retain the following qualities of the undead type:
- 60' Darkvision
- Living dead are immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, and death effects.
- Living dead are not subject to energy drain, fatigue, or exhaustion.
- Living dead are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.
- Living dead are not affected by raise dead or reincarnate.
- Living dead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

[stack]

Racial archetypes? That was both unexpected and welcome. Streamlines the idea of monster classes nicely.

Too bad my playtest seems to have died, would have liked to use them.

[SecondRevan]

I love the racial archetypes. They are an awesome idea and looking forward to seeing more. I really want to play as a gorgon.

When I have a chance, I'll make another post in the play test. Having issues getting onto this site at the moment

[Gnorman]

Racial archetypes? That was both unexpected and welcome. Streamlines the idea of monster classes nicely.

Too bad my playtest seems to have died, would have liked to use them.


I love the racial archetypes. They are an awesome idea and looking forward to seeing more. I really want to play as a gorgon.

When I have a chance, I'll make another post in the play test. Having issues getting onto this site at the moment

Glad to hear you like them! They're easy to churn out and I can usually make around three a day in my spare time, so expect more very soon.

I'm also taking requests for other monsters, if anyone's interested.

Here's three psychic creatures:


Illithid
(Empath Archetype)

Racial Traits: An illithid is a medium-sized aberration with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. An illithid has a +2 racial bonus to Intelligence, Charisma, and the Concentration and Sense Motive skills, but suffers a -2 racial penalty to Constitution. An illithid speaks Common and Undercommon.
Archetype Power (Lesser): An illithid gains four tentacle attacks at 1d4 damage. It also gains Improved Grab, which it may use on creatures up to Large size. If it wins the grapple check, it may attach one of its tentacles. If an illithid begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can attempt to attach the rest of them with a successful grapple check. It gains a +2 circumstance bonus to grapple checks for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of its turn.
Archetype Power (Moderate): An illithid gains a +1 bonus to the DC of all powers manifested against a target for every tentacle currently attached to the target (i.e., if the illithid has has four tentacles attached, it would gain a +4 bonus to the DC).
Archetype Power (Greater): If an illithid begins its turn with all four tentacles attached to an opponent and succeeds on a grapple check, the illithid extracts the opponent's brain, instantly killing it. Creatures immune to critical hits or with indiscernible anatomies are immune to this effect, and it is not instantly fatal to creatures with multiple heads. Upon extraction, the illithid regains a number of power points equal to the hit dice of the creature killed.

Bonus Powers:
1: Mind Thrust
2: Ego Whip
3: Psionic Blast
Capstone PLA: Psionic Dominate


Thri-Kreen
(Aspirant Archetype)

Racial Traits: A thri-kreen is a medium-sized monstrous humanoid with a 40' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A thri-kreen has a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, Wisdom, and the Hide and Spot skills, but suffers a -2 racial penalty to Charisma. A thri-kreen is immune to sleep effects and has a racial bonus to Jump checks equal to five times its level. A thri-kreen's automatically speaks Common.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A thri-kreen possesses four arms, which allow it to wield weapons in ways that most creatures cannot. It could wield a one-handed weapon in each hand, allowing it to wield four weapons at once, or it could wield two two-handed weapons. In addition, a thri-kreen does not take penalties for fighting with two or more weapons, and gains his full Strength modifier as a bonus to secondary attacks. A thri-kreen also has four claw attacks at 1d4 damage.
Archetype Power (Moderate): Once per encounter, a thri-kreen can spit a paralyzing poison at an opponent within 30 feet as a standard action. The thri-kreen must make a ranged touch attack - if successful, the opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the thri-kreen's level + the thri-kreen's Constitution modifier) or be afflicted. The initial damage of the poison is 1d6 Dexterity. The secondary damage is paralysis for 2d6 minutes.
Archetype Power (Greater): As a full-round action, a thri-kreen can move up to its speed, slicing and dicing along the way. It may make a single attack at its full base attack bonus against any opponent that comes within reach during its movement. It may not attack any opponent more than once.

Bonus Powers:
1: Chameleon
2: Wall Walker
Capstone PLA: Greater Concealing Amorpha


Yuan-Ti Abomination
(Subliminal Archetype)

Racial Traits: A yuan-ti abomination is a medium-sized monstrous humanoid with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A yuan-ti abomination has a +2 racial bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and the Listen and Spot skills, but suffers a -2 racial penalty to Dexterity. A yuan-ti abomination speaks Common and Abyssal.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A yuan-ti abomination gains a natural bite attack at 1d6 damage and the Improved Grab ability, which functions on opponents of up to Large size. A yuan-ti abomination's bite attack also applies an injury poison unless a successful Fortitude save is made (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the yuan-ti's level + the yuan-ti abomination's Constitution modifier). The initial and secondary damage of this poison is 1d3 Constitution. The damage increases to 1d4 at 3rd level and 1d6 at 5th.
Archetype Power (Moderate): As a swift action, a yuan-ti abomination can extract a dose of his own venom and apply it to a weapon. The venom remains potent for up to ten rounds before dissolving harmlessly. A yuan-ti abomination also gains the Improved Grab ability, which functions on opponents of up to Large size. He also gains the Constrict ability, allowing him to damage his foes for 1d6 + his Strength modifier on a successful grapple check.
Archetype Power (Greater): A yuan-ti abomination is considered to be flanking any opponent that it is grappling.

Bonus Powers:
1: Entangling Ectoplasm
2: Dissolving Touch
Capstone PLA: Exhalation of the Black Dragon

[Edge]

Really liking these racial archetypes. :smallcool:

However, the werewolf's hybrid form states that it increases their natural weapon damage by one die step. However, they never gain any natural attacks as part of the class, unless you intended to simply base it off their wolf form (in which case, they simply gain a bite). Might just be easier to say they gain a 1d8 bite and two 1d6 claws, or just the bite attack and let them deal slashing damage with their unarmed strikes to represent the claws.

[Gnorman]

Really liking these racial archetypes. :smallcool:

However, the werewolf's hybrid form states that it increases their natural weapon damage by one die step. However, they never gain any natural attacks as part of the class, unless you intended to simply base it off their wolf form (in which case, they simply gain a bite). Might just be easier to say they gain a 1d8 bite and two 1d6 claws, or just the bite attack and let them deal slashing damage with their unarmed strikes to represent the claws.

Sorry, that should have read "unarmed attacks," as he does receive unarmed attacks from his base brawler abilities.

[Gnorman]

Bearded Devil
(Gladiator Archetype)

Racial Traits: A bearded devil is a medium-sized outsider (with the lawful and evil subtypes) with a 30' base land speed. A bearded devil has a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Constitution, and the Climb and Hide skills, but suffers a -2 racial penalty to Intelligence. A bearded devil can see perfectly in any darkness, even magical darkness.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A bearded devil may enter a rage as a barbarian of his level three times per day. Unlike a barbarian, however, a bearded devil suffers no ill effects afterward. In addition, a bearded devil gains fire resistance 10 and a +4 bonus to saves against poison.
Archetype Power (Moderate): When using his Weapon of Choice, a bearded devil inflicts grievous, persistent wounds. An injured creature loses additional hit points each round equal to half the bearded devil's level. The wound does not heal naturally and resists healing spells. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a DC 16 Heal check, a cure spell, or a heal spell.
Archetype Power (Greater): While raging, a bearded devil gains damage reduction 5/silver and spell resistance 17. Any spellcaster who tries and fails to overcome his spell resistance takes vile damage equal to the bearded devil's level - in addition, during a rage, he deals extra vile damage equal to his Charisma modifier on any successful attack against any creature capable of casting spells or spell-like abilities. A bearded devil also becomes immune to fire and poison.


Bralani Eladrin
(Poet Archetype)

Racial Traits: A bralani eladrin is a medium-sized outsider (with the chaotic and good subtypes) with a 30' base land speed, low-light vision, and darkvision out to 60'. A bralani eladrin has a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and the Escape Artist and Tumble skills, but suffers from a -2 racial penalty to Intelligence.
Archetype Power (Lesser): As a standard action once per encounter, a bralani can take the form of a whirlwind. It gains a fly speed equal to its base land speed (perfect maneuverability), two slam attacks at 1d6 damage each, and the ability to attack with a blast of wind in a 20-foot line. The wind blast does 1d6 damage for every two levels the bralani has (minimum of 1d6), which is halved on a successful Reflex save (DC equals 10 + 1/2 the bralani's level + the bralani's Constitution modifier). While in whirlwind form, a bralani's equipment is melded into the new form and becomes non-functional, and the bralani may not use magic items. A bralani may stay in whirlwind form for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. A bralani also gains electricity resistance 10 and a +4 bonus to saves against petrification in either form.
Archetype Power (Moderate): By spending one use of his Inspiration ability, a bralani may cast either Blur, Mirror Image, or Gust of Wind as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the bralani's level, effective spell level of two). In addition, whenever a bralani is in whirlwind form, he gains damage reduction 5/cold iron.
Archetype Power (Greater): By spending two uses of his Inspiration ability, a bralani may cast either Cure Serious Wounds, Lightning Bolt or Wind Wall as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the bralani's level, effective spell level of three). In addition, the bralani gains immunity to electricity and petrification.


Hound Archon
(Zealot Archetype)

Racial Traits: A hound archon is a medium-sized outsider (with the good and lawful subtypes) with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A hound archon has a +2 racial bonus to Strength, Wisdom, and the Jump and Survival skills, but suffers from a -2 racial penalty to Dexterity. A hound archon possesses the Scent special quality. A hound archon possesses a natural bite attack at 1d8 damage and a slam attack at 1d4 damage.
Archetype Power (Lesser): As a full-round action, a hound archon may briefly summon one lantern archon for every two levels he has, just long enough for them to fire off a ray of light that does 1d6 damage. Treat this as a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet that uses the hound archon's Charisma modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier (even if multiple attacks are being made, use one attack roll for all of them). The lantern archon's damage overcomes any and all forms of damage reduction, and the hound archon may direct them at as many targets as there are rays, or focus all or some of the rays against a smaller number of targets. In addition, a hound archon gains electricity resistance 10 and a +4 bonus on saves against petrification.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A hound archon exudes an aura of menace out to ten feet. Any hostile creature who enters the range of this aura must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the hound archon's level + the hound archon's Charisma modifier) or take a -2 penalty to attacks, saves, and armor class for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the hound archon. Any creature who resists or breaks this effect cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours. In addition, a hound archon may assume the form of any Small or Medium canines of the animal type as a standard action (the hit dice of the shape he assumes cannot exceed his own). In such a form, he loses his own natural attacks and his equipment melds with him, becoming non-functional, but he gains the natural attacks of the form he chooses.
Archetype Power (Greater): Once per encounter, a hound archon can focus the power of his subservient lantern archons into a burst of holy power. This burst deals 3d6 damage to all evil creatures within 20 feet of the hound archon, with a Reflex save for half (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the hound archon's level + the hound archon's Charisma modifier). Evil outsiders and undead take double damage and are not allowed a save. In addition, a hound archon's aura of menace extends to twenty feet and functions as the Magic Circle Against Evil spell (caster level equal to the hound archon's level). The hound archon also gains immunity to electricity and petrification.


Succubus
(Scoundrel Archetype)

Racial Traits: A succubus is a medium-sized outsider (with the chaotic and evil subtypes) with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A succubus has a +2 racial bonus to Intelligence, Charisma, and the Bluff and Disguise skills, but suffers from a -2 racial penalty to Strength.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A succubus may assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid as a full-round action (which gives her a +10 bonus on Disguise checks) and may cast Charm Person as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to her own level with an effective spell level of one) a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier. In addition, a succubus gains electricity resistance 10 and a +4 bonus to saves against poison.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A succubus gains a pair of bat-like wings that allow her to fly at her base land speed in her natural form, with average maneuverability. In addition, she may cast Suggestion as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (caster level equal to her own level, with an effective spell level of two).
Archetype Power (Greater): If a succubus successfully lands a sneak attack on an opponent, she may sacrifice all sneak attack damage done to instead attempt to drain the lifeforce of her opponent. The creature must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the succubus' level + the succubus' Charisma modifier) or suffer one negative level. In addition, her Charm Person spell-like ability now functions as Charm Monster (caster level 7th, effective spell level of four). A succubus also becomes immune to electricity and poison.

[stack]

Regarding the Thri-Keen, should you clarify multi-weapon fighting penalties? You say they can use two two-handed weapons, but what penalties do they take, if any?

[wadledo]

And for the Yuan-Ti Abomination, I think the moderate power is supposed to be constrict.

[theDuskling]

@stack those are writting inside the 3.5 monster manual/player handbook considering multi/two weapon fighting. as far as i can remember those are the same. the main hand does always full damage and all offhands get only half str mod.

if there are no specific rules for using combinations of 3 hands for 1 weapon and the fourth for another one and alike. i'd go with adding the str mods for the 3 hands and checking for light weapon in the offhand(s). giving with multiweapon fighting feat and a light weapon in the offhand an attack with 2 times str mod and one with a one half time. both attacks with -2 penalty on attackrolls.

[Gnorman]

@stack those are writting inside the 3.5 monster manual/player handbook considering multi/two weapon fighting. as far as i can remember those are the same. the main hand does always full damage and all offhands get only half str mod.

if there are no specific rules for using combinations of 3 hands for 1 weapon and the fourth for another one and alike. i'd go with adding the str mods for the 3 hands and checking for light weapon in the offhand(s). giving with multiweapon fighting feat and a light weapon in the offhand an attack with 2 times str mod and one with a one half time. both attacks with -2 penalty on attackrolls.

If I am interpreting the rules correctly, you are correct - the primary attack may add the full Strength modifier, and all the secondaries only half. I think, though, if you're using a two-handed weapon, you get to add 1.5x the Strength modifier, even if it's not the only weapon you use. But you also run into the problem of no two-handed weapons being light.

The planar round is complete, by the way! I had to take a few liberties with the hound archon and bearded devil, as they didn't quite have enough abilities to round out the archetype powers, but I've tried to hew closely to their representation in 2E Planescape literature when adding things. The only ability that is pure fabrication on my part is the bearded devil's ability to do extra damage to spellcasters.

Hmmm, what now? A few other outsiders, I think.


Deva
(White Mage Archetype)


Racial Traits:
Archetype Power (Lesser):
Archetype Power (Moderate):
Archetype Power (Greater):

Bonus Spells:
1: Burning Hands, Produce Flame
2: Flaming Sphere, Shatter
3: Call Lightning, Fireball
Capstone SLA: Flame Strike or Wall of Fire


Djinni
(Blue Mage Archetype)

Racial Traits: A djinni is a medium-sized outsider (of the air subtype) with
Archetype Power (Lesser):
Archetype Power (Moderate): A djinni gains a fly speed equal to his base land speed, with perfect maneuverability, while in whirlwind form.
Archetype Power (Greater): A djinni's fly speed is now usable at all times, even when not in whirlwind form.

Bonus Spells:
1: Magic Missile, Shield
2: Glitterdust, Resist Energy
3: Create Food and Water, Lightning Bolt
Capstone SLA: Greater Invisibility or Minor Creation


Rakshasa
(Red Mage Archetype)

Racial Traits: A rakshasa is a medium-sized outsider (with the native subtype) with a 30' base land speed and darkvision out to 60'. A rakshasa has a +2 racial bonus to Constitution, Charisma, and the Bluff and Disguise skills, but suffers a -2 racial penalty to Wisdom. A rakshasa has two natural claw attacks at 1d4 damage and one bite attack at 1d6.
Archetype Power (Lesser): A rakshasa may change shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape) into any Small or Medium humanoid form as a standard action. When in an alternate form, it loses its natural attacks.
Archetype Power (Moderate): A rakshasa can continuously use the Detect Thoughts spell (caster level equal to his level, effective spell level of two, save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the rakshasa's level + the rakshasa's Charisma modifier), turning it on or off as a free action. If he successfully reads a creature's thoughts, he gains a bonus on Bluff checks, Disguise checks, and attack rolls against that creature equal to half his Intelligence modifer for the rest of the encounter. In addition, a rakshasa becomes immune to 1st-level spells.
Archetype Power (Greater): When in its natural form, a rakshasa gains damage reduction 5/piercing. In addition, a rakshasa becomes immune to 2nd-level spells.

Bonus Spells:
1: Charm Person, Silent Image
2: Hideous Laughter, Invisibility
3: Suggestion, Tongues
Capstone SLA: Charm Monster or Confusion