Pathfinder Spy Rogue Dilemma

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Hello all, its been awhile...

My Call of Cthulhu game has fallen through, in the meantime, we're playing pathfinder, possibly the Kingmaker campaign, or something akin to it.

Ive been looking at the Spy archetype, and Im liking the idea of the +1/2 level to bluff skill, as well as being a Half-Elf and getting the same bonus to feinting as well. (alternate favored class bonus for half elf rogues) Was thinking of picking up Imp. Feint for those rare moments when flanking cant happen. probably going to use a rapier or dagger, as well as a buckler and various wands in a wand bracer. (from 3.5 Dungeonscape.)

Ive also been looking at the Spy Master prestige class to serve the same purpose thematically. Im just wondering if Spy Master is worth the feat tax: Deceitful and Iron Will, and lack of rogue talents... or if I should just stick with pure rogue? Or maybe i should roll with both the Spy archetype AND the Spy Master PrC?

Thanks in advance!

[Krazzman]

Inb4: You should consider Taking a scimitar along with Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance (Meaning Scimitar with 1d6+dex-mod damage and Piercing/Slashing instead of only slashing, has to be a worshipper of Sarenrae(?) and perform (dancing) 2 ranks).

B2T: The "pure" rogue will probably suffice your needs. But consider, you can also take advantage of other maneuvers (like trip or disarm).
And even an ACF to trade 1 sneak attack dice for +1 SA dice of your favoured weapon (think it was the specialised rogue). For example: Scimitar. At third level you would deal: 1d6+3d6(sneak)+5(dex)= 9-29 damage without considering anything else. And once you hit level 9 you can extend your crit range to 15-20. You should look if you can take both ACF or just stay away from the specialised rogue.
But for the Spy part, search through some of your rogue talents, maybe the 0-level spells/1st-level spell rogue trick helps with your idea.

The main thing would be roleplaying, since you are a SPY with a huge bluffing mod.

Have a nice Day,
Krazzman

[kestrel404]

Well, without going into an in-depth analysis, let's make a quick comparison between Rogue and the Master Spy prestige class:
Skills: rogue gets 8, MS gets 6, but they also add their class level to 3 skills (bluff, disguise, sense motive). Since you were probably already going to be advancing bluff and disguise, you basically get an extra skill point per level (plus the ability to 'double up' advancement of some of those skills). Considdering that by advancing Rogue you're getting +1/2 class level to bluff checks (including feints, via half-elf favored class), this really amounts to +1/2 skill points per level.
Sneak Attack: 10 levels of rogue gets +5d6 sneak attack, while 10 levels of MS gets +4d6. Not a big disadvantage
Abilities:
Master of Disguise - This is basically a variable/miscellanious bonus to disguise checks. I'd give it the equivalent of a +2 bonus. - Roughly equivalent to a non-advanced rogue talent.
Glib Lie - Avoiding magical truth detection is very useful for someone with as much investment in Bluff as you. While having the actual Glibness spell would be better, you're not a bard so you'd be shelling out over 1k gold per scroll (or a ridiculous sum for a wand). I'd rank this as equivalent to an advanced rogue talent.
Mask Alignment - This is is very nice ability - I'd put it close to being the capstone ability of a 3 rogue talent chain (one standard, two advanced), making it worth at least 1.5 advanced rogue talents.
Non-magical Aura - While this may be a very nice ability to make all your magical items appear mundane (I'm going to assume caster level = class level, so you'll be able to conceal 2x class level items at a time this way), you could probably manage the same thing with a wand. This is exactly equivalent to the Major Magic rogue talent, but with a specific spell. I'd call it 1 non-advanced talent.
Superficial Knowledge - Yet more free skill points! With the correct cover (court librarian, wise woman herbalist, etc.), you can get access to pretty much any knowledge skill. Not with a very high bonus, but enough to be worthwhile. I'd put this as equivalent to Esoteric Scholar, since you can only manage a subset of knowledge/profession skills at any time - 1 non-advanced talent.
Conceal Thoughts - This is a protection against a specific spell (there are creatures with detect thoughts as an SLA, but there are no 'similar spells' in pathfinder so it's literally only protecting against a specific use of detect thoughts). Despite that, it's quite handy for fooling magical detection. Because of the specialization of the defense, I'd rate it as equal to a single non-advanced talent.
Quick Change - Very nice for making up fast disguises. Worthy of an advanced talent.
Elude Detection - Now we're getting into the good stuff. Nondetection at will? Yes please! This is better than any advanced talent.
Slippery Mind - Is an advanced talent.
Shift Alignment - You can change your alignment at will. This is a bit situational but roughly equivalent in power to a 7th level spell. An order of magnitude better than any rogue talent. I'll rate it as 2 advanced talents.
Death Attack - Not the greatest ability, but easily worthy of an Advanced Talent. Stacks with assassin, which would be an excellent next-choice for PrC.
Fool Casting - Again, this is situational, but better than anything you can do with normal magic. I'd put it as 2 advanced talents.
Hidden Mind - A permanent Mind Blank. While this may overlap a bit with earlier abilities, I'd have to say that it's still an absolutely marvelous ability. Call it the equivalent of 4 advanced talents.
Assumption - This might only apply to magical abilities, but at this level (minimum 17) most of what you'd considder a serious challenge is going to have at least 8th level spells. A truly worthy capstone ability, and when used it's easily better than the rogue capstone.

So in the time that a rogue would be getting 5 talents (no more than 4 of them advanced), a Master Spy is getting 13, 10 of which would be considdered advanced talents or better. At the same time, the Master Spy is getting more skill points (or bonuses equivalent to skill points), 2 good saves instead of 1, and the same HP/BAB.

The cost? One die of sneak attack damage and 2 feats (which are explicitly the same value as advanced talents) - so for 7 advanced talents + 1 non-advanced, you can get a class that gives you 10 advanced talents and 3 non-advanced + more skill points. If you're in the kind of game where the Master Spy's abilities come into play (any intrigue/politics/social game) then the Master Spy is totally worth it. If you're in a hack-and-slash style game, then master spy is going to be mostly worthless until later levels (because Mind Blank is always worthwhile), because their abilities are very focused and non-chooseable.

If it were my build, I'd go with:
Rogue 5/Assassin 2/Master Spy 10/Assassin +3, giving you 10d6 sneak attack (just what a rogue would get, slightly delayed progression) and improved uncanny dodge/greater death attack ability. Because of the wording of the Master Spy's death attack, your assassin & master spy level stack for the attacks save DC as soon as you get into the Master Spy PrC.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

thanks for the advice!

I have used Dervish dance with a rogue before, but it doesnt fit the character concept this time. im going with light, concealable weapons. Dervish Dance is a great feat though.

Kestrel, I appreciated the breakdown of the Master Spy PrC, that was exactly what i needed. I just need to think about poison choices now, and some wands...

Anyone have any great ideas for pumping up bluff and UMD? currently by level 10, I have a +35 bluff: 10+3 skill points, 6 from Skill Focus as a half elf, 4 from the deceitful feat, +5 item (I was thinking a shiny mask!) and +5 from class bonuses: +3 from 7 levels of Spy rogue, and +2 from 2 levels of Master Spy, and +2 CHA.

UMD by level 10, +20: 10+3 points, +2 CHA, and a +5 item. (ring or glove or something).

probably rolling with a handful of daggers and a hand crossbow for "long" distance work, maybe a shortsword. Again, going to be using Imp. Feint when I can't flank, so high bluff and guaranteed sneak attack would be nice.

Thanks again, all!

[Krazzman]

I don't know how much wealth you have, but to pimp Bluff: Potion of "Glibness"? "Gilbness"? A wand (if enough) would do either. You could ask for the concealed Rapier to have the stats of a normal Rapier (Actually I don't see a difference besides the conceal thing...)

Sword Cane:
This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place.

Benefit: You can draw the blade from the cane as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must make a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon.

Additional wands/rings of Invisibility (Greater Invis), Wands of [Spell rendering target blinded etc...] would be very effective.

Again, it might be a great boost if you ask your DM to refluff the Dancing Dervish. For feat selection, IF you a) can not flank, b) can not sneak and c) can not feint, there might be a feat (don't know the name) that would grant you your sneak attack bonus dice on a critical hit, even if it was not a "sneak-attack". Another call from the GM would be needed if you ask for: Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundrel).

Hope that helps.

Have a nice Day,
Krazzman