Rifleman: what goes well with Gunslinger?

[Firechanter]

As it says on the tin. I'm thinking about introducing Early Firearms to a 3.5 game, using the Pathfinder firearm rules and offering the Gunslinger class.

However, Gunslinger seems to be very frontloaded -- it gets a lot of cool stuff in the first five levels - especially the Musket Master archetype - but sharply diminishing returns after that.

So, from an optimizer's standpoint, it seems to make sense to plan only 5 levels of Gunslinger and then move on to something else. What would synergize well with it?

[Krazzman]

I might just leave this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035) here.

Since you are Dex and Wisdom or Charisma based....why not Rogue? Ranger? Ninja?

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

[kestrel404]

I thought precisely the same thing when I first looked at the class, but there are some exceptions:
The Mysterious Stranger archetype is mostly worthless until Gunglinger level 11, and then you absolutely MUST take the Signature Deed ability with your Focused Aim deed. This means that a Gunslinger/Ninja does not work very well.
The Musketeer is not only the best archetype for ranged combatants, it is also the single best possible use for your level 1 Leadership mooks.
The Pistolero is just as good as the Musketeer, but they're best suited to up-close and personal dual-wielders.

After Musketeer 5, I think that Ranger is the best possible next step. For Pistolero it could be Rogue, but a Musketeer is a longer-ranged hitter than 30' and none of the range-extenders for sneak attack apply to firearms.

[Prime32]

Lv11 lets you reload a heavy bombard, by yourself, as a swift action. That's interesting if nothing else.

[Firechanter]

Ranger sounds okay, although the combat style feats come in rather slowly. Might be worth it if it means you can avoid PBS. Conversely, Fighter probably isnt worth it, since that wouldn't allow you to skip PBS, so 2 Fighter levels get you only a single actually useful feat.

Question: does the Touch-AC-within-first-range-increment rule also apply if you extend your Range increment? Say, if you have Far Shot and use Gloves of Extended Range, does that mean you get to roll against Touch AC up to 120' with a regular musket? Or does the bullet simply lose steam so it can't pierce armour after the first 40'.

[kestrel404]

Ranger sounds okay, although the combat style feats come in rather slowly. Might be worth it if it means you can avoid PBS. Conversely, Fighter probably isnt worth it, since that wouldn't allow you to skip PBS, so 2 Fighter levels get you only a single actually useful feat.

Question: does the Touch-AC-within-first-range-increment rule also apply if you extend your Range increment? Say, if you have Far Shot and use Gloves of Extended Range, does that mean you get to roll against Touch AC up to 120' with a regular musket? Or does the bullet simply lose steam so it can't pierce armour after the first 40'.

Yes, as long as you're still in your first range increment, no matter how far you've extended that, it's still touch AC. This is made explicit by the Musketeer's alternate 1st level deed.

[Frosty]

Firechanter: In PF at least, Far shot doesn't double the range increment of anything. It merely halves the range penalties. That said, any abilities that actually increases range will help you get that touch attack at farther range.

As for getting out after 5 levels, I think I wouldn't want to get out before 11 levels. Signature Deed is too good. For a Musketeer you'd use it on Dead Shot, and for a Pistolero you'd use it on Up Close and Deadly. Why wouldn't you want to be able to do an extra 3d6 precision (goes up to 5d6 by level 20) damage per shot that has no requirements other than being within 30 feet of the target...and do it ALL DAY LONG WITH NO GRIT EXPENDITURE?

[Firechanter]

I'm afraid I don't see the point of Dead Shot. It looks like a Trap to me. You still need a Full Attack, you still need to roll each attack separately with iterative penalties, but you only get to apply your damage bonuses from Dex and Deadly Aim once, instead of four times.

So you save ammo, w00t. If I'm informed correctly, there's a 2000GP item that supplies you with infinite ammo. So that's not exactly a compelling reason to invest six further levels.

Might make some sense against opponents with Damage Reduction. But you should be able to find other ways to bypass most DRs. So I'm not really sure if that is worth it.

[Cieyrin]

I'm afraid I don't see the point of Dead Shot. It looks like a Trap to me. You still need a Full Attack, you still need to roll each attack separately with iterative penalties, but you only get to apply your damage bonuses from Dex and Deadly Aim once, instead of four times.

So you save ammo, w00t. If I'm informed correctly, there's a 2000GP item that supplies you with infinite ammo. So that's not exactly a compelling reason to invest six further levels.

Might make some sense against opponents with Damage Reduction. But you should be able to find other ways to bypass most DRs. So I'm not really sure if that is worth it.

Dead Shot is an ammo conservation and DR piercing ability, primarily, yes. It also makes it far less likely you'll misfire, since you only misfire on a Dead Shot if all your attacks are misfires, which can be a boon for a Mysterious Stranger specifically, due to their replacement of Quick Clear. Speaking of, Focused Aim does get multiplied on a Dead Shot, so there's at least that.

As for the supposed item, the only one I can find is the Dry Load Powder Horn, which is an extradimensional horn that keeps your gun dry to let you shoot it underwater. I wouldn't call that infinite ammo. Also, it should be pointed out that every Gunslinger gets Gunsmithing, which lets you craft ammo, gun powder and cartridges for a fraction of the cost, so ammo and powder becomes trivial in higher levels, especially since Gunsmithing works on magic item creation time specs, as opposed to mundane, so you can get a lot of powder and bullets with just one day of work.

It should be pointed out that Snap Shot chain works lovely with firearms, though you probably want to dip Monk or Fighter to get the feats in fairly quickly. Given PF spiked chains don't have flexible reach anymore, 15' of it can give a Gunslinger a nice bit of battlefield control. Plus, I just like the image of Gun-Fu. :smallwink:

[Swok]

Dead Shot is for hilarious Hackbut alpha strikes. Its also much easier to get a crit on the huge shot even with the "penalty" to confirm.

[Frosty]

Dead Shot is for size increase shenanigans, since if you have a huge base weapon dice, piling on the multipliers gets hilarious, especially if you crit.

[Cieyrin]

Dead Shot is for hilarious Hackbut alpha strikes. Its also much easier to get a crit on the huge shot even with the "penalty" to confirm.

The penalty isn't that big a deal if you have Critical Focus, which I heartily recommend getting at 9th level.

[Grendus]

A Myrmadarch Magus might work well. Myrmadarch loses one spell slot per level, but you get ranged spellstrike, a decently sized Arcane Pool, and a nice number of spells that add some serious punch to your attacks.

I'm not so sure about it with muskets though, since reloading is a move action until level 11 and Spell Combat is a full attack. If you stick around to level 11 though it would be great, reload as a swift action, charge with a spell and fire. A pistol using gunslinger, though, could pull it off at level 5 with Rapid Reload, and with a devastating full attack if he stuck around to level 11.

[kestrel404]

Dead Shot is for size increase shenanigans, since if you have a huge base weapon dice, piling on the multipliers gets hilarious, especially if you crit.

If that's the case, then I see no reason that it would NEED to be a signature deed - your wis mod is probably higher than +1, so you can just spend Grit on it when you want it, and recover grit when you kill stuff/crit - that's the whole point of Grit after all, it's a renewable resource. Alpha-striking is a sometimes tactic in the same way the cookies are a sometimes food.

[Cieyrin]

I'm not so sure about it with muskets though, since reloading is a move action until level 11 and Spell Combat is a full attack. If you stick around to level 11 though it would be great, reload as a swift action, charge with a spell and fire. A pistol using gunslinger, though, could pull it off at level 5 with Rapid Reload, and with a devastating full attack if he stuck around to level 11.

If you want free action Musket reloads, Lightning Reload isn't the place to look for it, it's the Musket Master Archetype, which lets you reload 2-handed firearms as 1-handers, they get Rapid Reload(musket) for free and you just have to use alchemical cartridges. Free action reloads are thus available from 1st level for pistols and 3rd for muskets (when Musket Masters get their special).

Lightning Reload is for Large Gunslingers with Cannons. :smallwink:

[Firechanter]

I'll definitely slash the ammo cost; 10GP for a single powder dose is downright ridiculous. And a lead bullet would also cost more than its weight in gold! That would be more than a fifth of a pound of gold for a single shot. Pah.

What I've been wondering, did UC intentionally set these prices so that Gunslingers must always remain poor? I'm not familiar with PF loot tables, but in D&D it would basically mean that, firing just two bullets per encounter, between levels 1 and 5 you'd burn about a quarter of your standard treasure share.

Well, doesn't really matter for me. I'm gonna set a powder and shot cartridge at maybe 1gp apiece, tops. And that would still be pretty expensive.
("Cartridge" in the historical sense, not the weird concoction that UC has cooked up.)

[Curious]

Just a word of advice; I would personally allow players to use advanced firearms. It is simply a huge hassle to reload in a timely manner without revolvers or ammo clips, and the base weapons aren't very good in the first place.

[deuxhero]

Artificer?

[Firechanter]

I'm still working out the details of the firearms; an advanced single-shot Rifle might just be within reach. But basically, you get to deal big damage dice plus your Dex mod plus other damage enhancers versus _Touch_ AC, I think that's quite a good incentive to invest a few feats.

Mainly I'm just looking at Musketeers, no Pistoleros and no mystic bullcrap, and as we've seen a Musketeer gets free action reload before he gets an iterative attack, so that's fine.

By the way, a little question: do you think the Double-Musket has a 10ft range increment on purpose, or is that by any chance a typo? After all, the Double Pistol also has the same range as a regular pistol.

[kestrel404]

...cost...

Yes, it was intentional. Guns, as written in UC, are 'bleeding edge' weapons that are just at the forefront of the 'technology curve' for the default setting. That's why 'advanced firearms' are repeatedly stated to be 'at the GM's discretion', because advances like rifling and safety when jammed are more than a little 'ahead of the curve'.

Of course, this is all setting specific. If you want to change that, go right ahead.

As far as cost goes, as long as you're not manufacturing alchemical cartridges, firing your gun IS going to cost you about 1 gp per shot (because you're going to be rolling your own bullets/powder at 1/10th the list price). Once guns become 'common place', the list price really should drop to about 1/5th the book price. That's why gunslingers get Gunsmithing as a free feat at 1st level - they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford to use their own weapons!

[Grendus]

Also, WBL is supposed to represent the amount of wealth your character has at that level, not the combined wealth he's accumulated and used. Presumably, a 5th level character will have used some scrolls, wand charges, potions, etc. His WBL reflects his wealth after those uses, not before. So a 1st level gunslinger will have a decent portion of his WBL tied up in ammunition. A 10th level gunslinger will have an insignificant portion of his WBL as ammunition, and by level 20 you should strongly consider abstracting it away

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the info about crafting at 1/10 list price.


Also, WBL is supposed to represent the amount of wealth your character has at that level, not the combined wealth he's accumulated and used.

That's why I wrote "standard treasure share" and not "WBL". Comparing the accumulated average treasure for standard encounters and the WBL table, you will find that the difference comes down to an overhead of about 10%. If a Gunslinger had to buy ammo at list price, he'd spend way over 20% just for powder and shot, let alone any other consumables such as potions etc.

But anyway, since any Gunslinger can make his own ammo at ~1GP/shot, that's fortunately moot.

[Firechanter]

Current draft for implementing Firearms into my 3.5 custom setting game:

- class: Gunslinger with Musket Master archetype, relabeled as Musketeer
- loses Gunsmith feat
- Firearms cost reduced to half price
- ammunition: paper cartridges, 1/10 of list price
- Musketeer does not gain free weapon
- game begins at level 3-4, so firearm can be acquired per WBL as usual
- Iterative attacks handled differently:

Similar to Dead Shot, only a single bullet is fired. Attacks are rolled as usual, but the Musketeer can target only one enemy per round.

As _opposed_ to Dead Shot, this mode does not require Grit. Also, damage is added up as if multiple shots were fired. Dex modifier is added for each attack. A confirmed Critical multiplies only the damage of one "attack", not that of all attacks combined. Rapid Shot is also rolled into the same bullet.

The whole point of the exercise is to maintain at least a bit of verisimilitude. Historically, a muzzle-loader could fire 2-4 rounds a minute. 10 rounds a minute (one per turn) is already a stretch, but tolerable by fantasy standards. 20-50 rounds a minute are just plain out.