Explain bloodline cheese

[Human Paragon 3]

I am aware that bloodlines can be used for caster level shananigans, but I'm not sure how that works. How is taking three bloodline levels any better than taking three wizard levels, for example?

[Qwertystop]

A Bloodline level counts as a class level for anything that scales by class level. This means that if a Sorcerer 1/Bard 1/Paladin 1 took a bloodline level, he would get 1 extra Bardic Music use, 1 extra damage on Smite Evil, and his Sorcerer and Bard caster levels would each increase by 1.

EDIT: In other words, it's good for caster level shenanigans for the purpose of multiclassing while keeping caster levels closer to par. Also, by some interpretations of the bloodline rules, bloodline levels are overwritten by character levels for the purpose of Character Level. For example, with the above character, after taking a level of Bloodline their Character Level would be 4. If they then took a second level of Bard, they would remain Character Level 4 but they would keep the caster level and Smite Evil bonuses from the bloodline level. This interpretation also makes it useful for single-class, as it gives up to 3 extra caster levels above your HD.

[kestrel404]

Bloodline levels are so poorly written that you can interpret them to have a very wide variety of effects on character level. If you're going to use them, you should consult with your GM and work with him to get a ruling that is both reasonable and useable. The abilities you get from major bloodlines are significant, but not really worth an LA+3, which is sort of what the text would imply you get.

Personally, if I were to play with the bloodline rules, I would rule that instead of these mythical 'bloodline levels', you instead get 1, 2 or 3 racial HD for the appropriate creature, with everything else staying the same. This means appropriate increases in BAB, saves and skill points, new feats gained at the appropriate times, and your 'class features' for these levels would be spread out over your entire character advancement as shown on the appropriate charts.

Hmm, I think I'll write that up for the Homebrew section...

[Qwertystop]

Bloodline levels are so poorly written that you can interpret them to have a very wide variety of effects on character level. If you're going to use them, you should consult with your GM and work with him to get a ruling that is both reasonable and useable. The abilities you get from major bloodlines are significant, but not really worth an LA+3, which is sort of what the text would imply you get.

The main problem with Bloodlines is actually that the official bloodlines themselves are not very good. The system works fine. Also, by one interpretation, as soon as you take another class level it replaces the bloodline one.

[Salanmander]

The main problem with Bloodlines is actually that the official bloodlines themselves are not very good. The system works fine. Also, by one interpretation, as soon as you take another class level it replaces the bloodline one.

In no case should "the system works fine" be followed immediately by "also, by one interpretation..."

If the system works fine, there should not be multiple interpretations!

[kestrel404]

Bloodline levels are so poorly written that you can interpret them to have a very wide variety of effects on character level.

The system works fine. Also, by one interpretation,

I agree with Salanmander.

[Essence_of_War]

Personally, if I were to play with the bloodline rules, I would rule that instead of these mythical 'bloodline levels', you instead get 1, 2 or 3 racial HD for the appropriate creature, with everything else staying the same. This means appropriate increases in BAB, saves and skill points, new feats gained at the appropriate times, and your 'class features' for these levels would be spread out over your entire character advancement as shown on the appropriate charts.

Hmm, I think I'll write that up for the Homebrew section...

Please do, and please link back here!

One of the other players in a game I'm about to start thought they were cool and we'd like better written system to use them in game!

[Prime32]

The main cheese from bloodlines is that they can be used to increase your effective level in multiple things at once, though this is rarely useful.

The most famous examples are increasing your effective level of Hellfire Warlock or Fiend of Possession beyond the cap (getting you more blast damage or weapon enchantments respectively), but bloodlines are overshadowed for that by Legacy Champion unless you're trying to do both at once.

[Fouredged Sword]

Actualy you can in theory use a bloodline to advance both hellfire warlock (extra damage based on level) and legacy champion (advance another class based on level) AND other stuff, all advanceing hellfire warlock damage.

It gets silly really really fast.

[Douglas]

Actualy you can in theory use a bloodline to advance both hellfire warlock (extra damage based on level) and legacy champion (advance another class based on level) AND other stuff, all advanceing hellfire warlock damage.

It gets silly really really fast.
Bloodlines only advance numbers and formulas. Legacy Champion advancement of another class is neither, so doubling up in that way doesn't work.

[Fouredged Sword]

It advances the "advance the features of another class on all levels except x,y,z" formula.

I agree that it shouldn't though. I think the rules should be you advance ONE class formulas and numbers not ALL

[Douglas]

It advances the "advance the features of another class on all levels except x,y,z" formula.
That's not a formula.

"Save DC = 10 + ability mod + class level" is a formula.
"Heal 5 hit points per level" is a formula.
"To a maximum spell level equal to your class level" is a formula.
"Refer to chart" in any form is not a formula.

[Piggy Knowles]

It also has odd interactions with classes that base caster level on your level in other classes. For instance, Sublime Chord - your caster level is generated by adding your Sublime Chord levels plus levels in another arcane spellcasting class.

Since you "include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels," that means that each bloodline level can effectively advance CL twice.

That's a fairly tame way to abuse them. When you start getting a lot of classes together that advance CL, though, it can get silly. Master Spellthief/Ur-Priest/Hierophant comes to mind...

[Urpriest]

They arguably don't actually increase your level, they just cost XP (like LA buyoff, or becoming a Necropolitan). I believe this is PlzBreakMyCampAn's interpretation. He may show up, if he hasn't been dragged off by the mo

[kestrel404]

Please do, and please link back here!

One of the other players in a game I'm about to start thought they were cool and we'd like better written system to use them in game!

Here you go. Was simpler than I thought.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11882295#post11882295

[Jude_H]

They play strangely with ToB, as well.

Crusader 5/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Master of the Nine 5/Bloodline 3
(depending on reading, ECL 12 with slightly delayed advancement, or ECL 15)
has an initiator level of 18-20 in all 3 classes.

Crusader IL = 8(Crusader)+2(Warblade)+2(Swordsage)+8(Mot9)=20
Warblade IL = 4(Crusader)+4(Warblade)+2(Swordsage)+8(Mot9)=18
Swordsage IL = 4(Crusader)+2(Warblade)+4(Swordsage)+8(Mot9)=18

edit:
Actually, I don't see the most common CL-boosting use of the class anywhere. Typically, they just give multiclassed casters a bunch of iterations of the +3 level bonus. Something relatively basic, like
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 5/Archmage 4/Bloodline 3
would have a base CL of 32 (Wizard 6, MS 7, FS 7, LM 8, A4).
The more dips, the more CL.

[kestrel404]

One of the most broken uses of bloodline level caster shenanigans is what I like to call the Chameleonificer. The build is: Rogue 1/Bloodline 3/Rogue +1/Chameleon X

Chameleon's effective spellcaster level is Class level x2. You get to add your Bloodline levels to this. So even without over-writing your bloodline levels with normal class levels (treating bloodline levels as pseudo LA), a 10th level Chameleonificer would have a caster level of 16, and would be able to take any item crafting feat on any given day, with access to every cleric and wizard spell.

A second method by which to break this is via Caster Dips + Sublime Chord + Ur-priest. Sublime Chord says that your arcane caster level for all of your arcane spellcasting classes is equal to chosen class's spellcaster level (add bloodline levels) + sublime chord level (add bloodline again!) - so if you've got Duskblade 1 + Bard 1 + Bloodline 3 + Spellthief 1 + Beguiler 4 + Sublime Chord 1 (Feats: Practiced Spellcaster Beguiler, Master Spellthief, Versatile Spellcaster), then your caster level at that point is 11 + 4 = 15. Which sets your Spellthief caster level to 15. Which then adds to the caster level of all your other classes. You then take Ur-priest 2. Your Ur-priest caster level is equal to 1/2 (round down) each arcane spellcaster level you have + ur-priest level. So that's 15 (Duskblade) + 15 (Bard) + 15(Beguiler) + 15(Sublime Chord) + 7(Spelltheif) + 5 (Ur-priest + bloodline) = 72. That's for a 13th level character. You may then take 7 more levels of Mystic Theurge (Ur-priest/Sublime Chord, for 8th-level arcane/9th level divine casting). At 20th level your Ur-priest caster level is over 200.

Of course, ur-priest/Sublime chord is a broken combo even without bloodlines.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

According to some, "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)," means that you can start out as a 1st level character with one or more major bloodlines... Once you've gained 1,000 xp you take a bloodline level, which doesn't increase your character level, so it only takes another 1,000 xp to level up again, at which point you take another bloodline level... Hence every bloodline level costs you only 1,000 xp.

If you started out with two major bloodlines and spent your first 6,000 xp on six bloodline levels, you'll be gaining your second class level when everyone else is already 4th, and thus you'll gain more xp per encounter and eventually catch up. When everyone is hitting 7th level, you'll be 6th level with six bloodline levels, max skill ranks of a 12th level character, a caster level of 12, etc.

You could go [class] 1/ bloodline 3/ [class] 1/ [prestige class] 1, so long as that prestige class only has a skill rank requirement that prohibits how early it can be taken, and you'll count as a 3rd level character for purposes of leveling up. If that was Druid 1/ Bloodline 3/ Druid 1/ Beastmaster 1, you would count as 12th level for your animal companion's benefits, when the rest of your party has just hit 4th level. That would be a 10 HD Fleshraker dinosaur companion, in a 4th level party. You could go Druid 1/ Bloodline 7/ Druid 1/ Beastmaster 1, and count as 20th level for your animal companion's benefits, when the rest of the party is just hitting 5th level. That same character can then gain three more Druid levels and one Master of Many Forms level, and count as 20th level for his Wild Shape duration and HD, and be able to use Wild Shape nine times per day (since MoMF grants +1 use/level). At MoMF 2, before the rest of the party is even 9th level yet, you can be Wild Shaping into a Legendary Bear.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

They arguably don't actually increase your level, they just cost XP (like LA buyoff, or becoming a Necropolitan). I believe this is PlzBreakMyCampAn's interpretation. He may show up, if he hasn't been dragged off by the moI approve of this and everything that it stands for.

I halfway considered boycotting this thread because of the word 'cheese'. After all "balanced interpretation and implementation" is in the handbook's title.

Its all spelled out there. Stacking rules prevent the 'adding to bunches at once' misled those above.

@essense of war BL are written about as well as any other thing of WotC's which explains why the text is dense and the table being off. Honestly though I understood it upon first reading without any diffi

[Kobold-Bard]

A question to you all, since you seem to know what you're on about (ignoring the fact that you all seem to disagree with one another).

In Welknair's homebrew Bloodlines thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208703), Bagel came up with this explanation for how they're supposed to work:



...

now they didn't give much insight so i will use some grey matter and see if i can come up with something simple yet effective

The character is still required to take a level of bloodline within the designated time as per the original rules. After they take this level this level is included in their ECL as described in the guide. However, instead of gaining the next level after the bloodline, they will "re-level" the bloodline level they obtained. This level then replaces the bloodline level. Effectively the character must obtain enough experience to gain the level twice.


Example: Crimson the Warlock has a Red Dragon bloodline, when he gains enough experience he acquires a level of Bloodline for his 12th level. He is effectively ECL 12. He then must gain enough experience equal to the difference between level 11 and 12 to effectively gain a 12th level in Warlock that then replaces the bloodline level. When the warlock level replaces the bloodline level he is still a ECL 12 character until he gains enough experience to become level 13. He retains his bloodline abilities as is able to continue to gain new ones as per the original rules.

if this is too clunky or just worded in a manner that hard to understand let me know., the difference between this an LA buyoff is with LA buyoff you actually would drop the gained level, in this version you retain the gained level until you can replace it with the class level.

Is this right? If not, would anyone be willing to make a similar "character" example explaining how they do work; because I understood & like this, so would appreciate a similar reference point to use if this is incorrect.

[Hazzardevil]

Heres another one.
Take a level in binder and a level in as many other prestige classes that say soulbinding +1, if you have 10 of these, a level of binder and 3 bloodline levels you now bind as a level 44 binder.

11 levels from classes, 33 from bloodlines.
Savvy?

[Douglas]

Heres another one.
Take a level in binder and a level in as many other prestige classes that say soulbinding +1, if you have 10 of these, a level of binder and 3 bloodline levels you now bind as a level 44 binder.

11 levels from classes, 33 from bloodlines.
Savvy?
I'd be very surprised if that actually works due to the formula requirement.

"Add class level as a bonus to your binder level" - works
"At each class level, increase the binding ability of a previous class" - doesn't work.

I'm pretty sure that all or nearly all binding PrCs use an equivalent of the latter wording, just like all the spellcasting PrCs out there.

[kestrel404]

All of the binder prestige classes have the language:
Your binder levels and X class

levels stack for purposes of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestiges granted abilities (EBL), your ability to bind higher level vestiges and the number of vestiges you can bind.

I think that may actually work...

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Except it doesn't as I mentioned before due to source stacking rules.

Doesn't anyone read the handbo