Unseen Seer SA Monster: Should I go TWF or Ranged?

[Tonal Architect]

I'm considering building an USS (unseen seer) for my current campaign, going the usual route of Spellthief/Wizard/USS/AT, picking up Hunter's Eye, persisting it, and wreaking havoc.

Thing is, I'm heavily inclined towards creating characters which do well on hand-to-hand combat, dip into shadowdancer, and poke holes of several magnitudes into unsuspecting foes who are still puzzled by the fact that my character just went *poof* in front of them, and the USS route, if powered by Hunter's Eye, while surely able to fulfill the "holes of several magnitudes" part, doesn't seem to blend well with a more hand-to-hand oriented character.

So.. Your thoughts on this? Should I settle for poking holes from a distance, or should I consider giving up on a caster level and a feat (since mobility and combat reflexes can be acquired from items) and take a level in Shadowdancer?

[gorfnab]

Shadowdancer is meh. I would recommend buying a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) instead. Also Spellthief/ Wizard/ Spellwarp Sniper/ Unseen Seer is a nice option for ranged.

[Keld Denar]

I foresee issues with BAB. Not just in hitting (cause you can get your +hit high enough with enough resources), but in gaining iteratives and qualifying for higher level TWFing feats. ESPECIALLY if you aren't using fractional BAB. A standard Rogue1/Wizard5/USS10 will have 2+7=+9 BAB at level 16, and won't get to 6 BAB until level 12. You could streamline this a little by going Rogue1/Wizard4/USS10 and having the same +9 BAB at level 15, but you lose out on the Wiz5 bonus feat (which can be traded for good stuff like Spontaneous Divination).

Regardless, you're not gonna be a wild attacking powerhouse badass. In most cases you'll do better with a 15d6 Orb + 5d6 SA damage than 4 attacks for 6d6 SA damage at lower to-hit against non-touch AC.

Not to mention that its a huge feat sink. You'll probably want TWF, ITWF, and Weapon Finesse, which really cuts hard into your ability to take spellcasting feats like Extend Spell + Persist Spell (to persist Hunter's Eye) or survivability spells like Minor Shapeshift or Quick Recovery.

[kestrel404]

So.. Your thoughts on this? Should I settle for poking holes from a distance, or should I consider giving up on a caster level and a feat (since mobility and combat reflexes can be acquired from items) and take a level in Shadowdancer?

I'm going to second Spellwarp Sniper - it pairs well with both Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster, and you're already losing a level of casting to Spellthief. While Hide in plain sight is a nice ability, unless you're in an AMF, there are far more efficienty ways of doing the same thing with spells - if nothing else, granting yourself concealment is ridiculously simple.

Instead, I strongly recommend you pick up the Invisible Spell metamagic. Create an Invisible fog cloud (solid fog is great for this, as is cloudkill or even just a fog cloud spell), followed by greater invisibility, and no matter what your enemy does they cannot see you, while you should be able to see them just fine.

[Tonal Architect]

Shadowdancer is meh. I would recommend buying a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) instead. Also Spellthief/ Wizard/ Spellwarp Sniper/ Unseen Seer is a nice option for ranged.

I tend to agree, but you know how the debate on the supernatural vs extraordinary goes.

Maybe the spellwarp sniper route really wouldn't hurt, and I'd still be getting what I wanted... Well, somewhat, anyways.


I foresee issues with BAB. Not just in hitting (cause you can get your +hit high enough with enough resources), but in gaining iteratives and qualifying for higher level TWFing feats. ESPECIALLY if you aren't using fractional BAB. A standard Rogue1/Wizard5/USS10 will have 2+7=+9 BAB at level 16, and won't get to 6 BAB until level 12. You could streamline this a little by going Rogue1/Wizard4/USS10 and having the same +9 BAB at level 15, but you lose out on the Wiz5 bonus feat (which can be traded for good stuff like Spontaneous Divination).

Regardless, you're not gonna be a wild attacking powerhouse badass. In most cases you'll do better with a 15d6 Orb + 5d6 SA damage than 4 attacks for 6d6 SA damage at lower to-hit against non-touch AC.

Not to mention that its a huge feat sink. You'll probably want TWF, ITWF, and Weapon Finesse, which really cuts hard into your ability to take spellcasting feats like Extend Spell + Persist Spell (to persist Hunter's Eye) or survivability spells like Minor Shapeshift or Quick Recovery.

I'm considering going the Wraithstrike route. Still, maybe this character isn't really cut out for that sort of playing, and would be better off dumping Acid Splatter orbs on enemies from a distance, along with a quite literal bucketload of SA d6s to match.


I'm going to second Spellwarp Sniper - it pairs well with both Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster, and you're already losing a level of casting to Spellthief. While Hide in plain sight is a nice ability, unless you're in an AMF, there are far more efficienty ways of doing the same thing with spells - if nothing else, granting yourself concealment is ridiculously simple.

Instead, I strongly recommend you pick up the Invisible Spell metamagic. Create an Invisible fog cloud (solid fog is great for this, as is cloudkill or even just a fog cloud spell), followed by greater invisibility, and no matter what your enemy does they cannot see you, while you should be able to see them just fine.

Now that's a very dirty trick. I like it.

Still, regarding AMFs, they're sure to show up. I saw how a couple of players from that same table, including the DM, handle spell-wielder encounters, and AMFs are sure to abound. I'd like to hold on to an extra edge.

[kestrel404]

Still, regarding AMFs, they're sure to show up. I saw how a couple of players from that same table, including the DM, handle spell-wielder encounters, and AMFs are sure to abound. I'd like to hold on to an extra edge.

Unfortunately, the Shadowdancer's Hide in plain sight ability as a SU ability, and thus fails in an AMF. The Dark Creature template (Tome of Magic 161), however grants it as an EX ability for only +1 LA (except in direct sunlight), along with racial hide bonuses.