Pathfinder Gish

[Zarake]

So, I got invited to play in a Pathfinder game and decided to try my first gish. The original plan was to go fighter/wizard/eldrich knight until I stumbled across the magus class on the SRD.
Would it be worth replacing the fighter/sorc levels with Magus then prestige or just got for straight Magus? I've never really played a caster before, let alone a Gish and I would just like to know the playgrounds opinion on this.
Also, game starts at level six, 22K gold, only pathfinder material, and I get a free set of +2 armor and a +2 weapon.
Thanks in advance guys :)

[subject42]

Paizo hates multiclassing with a deep, abiding passion that will never die.

Go straight Magus. Take a look at the Hex Magus variant while you're at it. You can do some fun things with the slumber hex and coup de grace.

[Zarake]

Cool thanks, also, what book IS magus in? :P

[Rising Phoenix]

Cool thanks, also, what book IS magus in? :P

Ultimate Magic

Though you can see near everything Paizo publishes here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home)

[stack]

Ultimate magic, or on the srd.

Since I got ninja'd, I'll elaborate.

Take magus straight (unless you use the myrmidarch archetype from ultimate combat to make an arcane archer, though the diminished casting hurts)

Hexcrafter is nice for the hexes, but you give-up spell recall, which hurts. Blade-bound is interesting. Staff magus I actually really like, you will never miss the heavier armors with the bonuses you get to AC from having an enchanted staff.

At level six, elven chain is nice for a decent AC as it counts as light armor. Spell storing is your best weapon enhancement.

If you get traits, take magic lineage for shocking grasp. That way you can intensify shocking grasp up to 10D6 as you level, as a level 1 slot. (Which you can get back as a swift action with spell recall)

[Zarake]

Thanks for the help guys but I'm still at a loss for stuff like spells and feats, seriously, no idea what to take XD

[subject42]

Thanks for the help guys but I'm still at a loss for stuff like spells and feats, seriously, no idea what to take XD

Let's start simple. What's your character concept? What do you want him to be able to do?

[Zarake]

He's the first mate on a pirate/resistance group run air ship. He's mainly going to be there to give the party some arcane back uo (which they lack) and the air ship lets him come and go as he pleases (I'm in 3 campaigns atm so it's how we explain me not being there)
In combat I was just planning on crit fishing with a scimitar or something similar.

[BlueInc]

::cough cough (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/-walter-s-lab/embedded-magus)::

[Paul H]

Hi

Feats like Dodge or Toughness are good at 1st lvl. Pwr Attack at 3rd. Cleave or Arcane Strike at 5th. (I know he can make weapons magical anyway, but it does take up an Arcane Pool point, and Arcane Strike does add extra damage based on CL).

Another good feat is Exotic Wpn Bastard Sword. So I can use B/Sword one handed for spell/wandstrike, or 2H if the spell still has charges. Eg. Frostbite.

I took the wandstrike thing for my Magus Arcana at 3rd, so wands of Truestrike become very useful. (PFS campaign they're easy to come by). At 6th lvl take either the Wand Wielder (use your Int mod for spells from wands) or the Familiar. (So Psudodragon familiar as 7th lvl feat).

There is another Gish type - Synthesist. (Summoner archetype in Ult Magic)

You basically become a creature of nightmare proportions, and can cast spells (mostly conjuration). Either to self-buff or battlefield control.

It's like wearing a battlesuit that changes your physical stats and adds various other bonuses. (Nat AC bonus, stat increases. Plus Darkvision at 1st lvl, Evasion at 2nd, etc). You can also use Evolution points to increase stats, gain extra limbs, flying, DR, breath weapon etc too).

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Took too long posting :(
Walter's guide is an excellent start. If you want to use Scimtar, go NG follower of Sarenrae then go high dex with Wpn Finesse. At 3rd lvl take Dervish Dance. Now using dex mod to attack/damage with scimitars.
[SRD seems to have (incorrectly) dropped the Sarenrae & alignment prereqs. The actual books say different. (Dervish Dance is in Qadira book only]

[Zarake]

Thanks for the help guys, but for some reason the guide isn't loading...

[stack]

Or ask your DM to allow the SRD version of the Dervish Dance feat. I suppose a pirate using a quarterstaff just doesn't sound right, even though it's a good archetype.

First decide if you want to go for strength or dexterity. Dex magus go for dervish dance and light armor. If you go sxtrength-based, you get medium armor at lvl 7. Scimitar is a good choice either way for the crit range, though rapier also works.

The importance of crit range is that channeled spells crit for x2, so you want to crit as often as you can.

Combat casting and uncanny concentration will get you concentration checks up. If you take the focused mind trait (instead of magic lineage, they are both magic traits so you can usually only take one) that gets you to +8, which should be auto-pass for defensive casting with a decent INT and a level 1 spell. This matters less as you level, but you have to live to level first.

Extra spell pool and extra arcana never hurt if you are at a loss for feats. If you use the familiar arcana you can take improved familiar and evolve familiar, makes it easy to get a flying wand activation every turn.

[herrhauptmann]

Hi

Another good feat is Exotic Wpn Bastard Sword. So I can use B/Sword one handed for spell/wandstrike, or 2H if the spell still has charges. Eg. Frostbite.

Why waste a feat on EWP:Bastard?
Just take a longsword that can also be wielded 1H or 2H as you prefer. Damage of 1d8 vs 1d10, same crit ranges and reach; you're not really getting anything worth a feat out of the bastard sword.

[Paul H]

Hi

I took bastard Sword for flavour. I'm using a mini of the 'original' Dwarven Gandalf from mythology, but the sword in Tolkein's LOTR is too big for a Longsword.

Think about EWP Katana. It can be used both 1H or 2H with the feat. Also has a good threat (18-20 x 2 crit).

Extra Spell Pool mentioned is an excellent choice of feat for spell recall.

With the Familiar arcana I mentioned you can get a Pseudodragon.

As I mentioned I have a Human Synthesist in PFS. (20 pt buy)
Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18.
AC 17 (21 w/Mage Armour), 35 HP, BAB +2 (uses Gt Sword), Darkvision & Evasion
All at 2nd Lvl!

Both Magus & Synthesists are Gish's, but it's down to play style.

Thanks
Paul H

[stack]

Make sure to talk to your DM about the synthesist though, as the rules discussion is on-going for many points (the 'official' FAQ actually making less sense then the text when first posted).

[Paul H]

Hi

As previous post - best to play safe with Synthesist.

1) Whilst Synthesist can wear armour, gains NO benefit whilst Eidolon is up. (Just use their Nat AC plus Shield bonus at 4th lvl).
2) Avoid multiple arms until Eidolon gains Multi Attack ability. (And then for nat attacks only).
3) Augment Summoning only works when 'summoning' eidolon with the 2nd lvl spell. (Normally Eidolons are summoned with a 1 min ritual, not spell).
4) Eidolon's HP can only be healed with Rejuv Eidolon or by transfering HP from yourself to it. (When it's at 0HP)

That covers most of the 'debates' on the various sites/forums.

Thanks
Paul H

[Grendus]

Paizo hates multiclassing with a deep, abiding passion that will never die.

Go straight Magus. Take a look at the Hex Magus variant while you're at it. You can do some fun things with the slumber hex and coup de grace.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far (unless they've actually come out and said that). They removed multiclassing penalties, replacing them with an incentive to single class and the general removal of dead levels. Not as much fun from an optimizers standpoint, but much easier on newer players, and you can grandfather in a lot of 3.5 material if you want to build a more traditional gish (Magus 20 has nothing on Sorcadin).

[Zarake]

I think I'll try Sorcadin once I get the feel for gishing with the magus... also is the sorcadin just pally 2-sorc x?

[Paul H]

Hi

If you're going 'Sorcadin', what about Pal 2/Sorc 3/Dragon Disciple xxx

More HP, better BAB plus other special stuff

Thanks
Paul H

[subject42]

I wouldn't necessarily go that far (unless they've actually come out and said that). They removed multiclassing penalties, replacing them with an incentive to single class and the general removal of dead levels. Not as much fun from an optimizers standpoint, but much easier on newer players, and you can grandfather in a lot of 3.5 material if you want to build a more traditional gish (Magus 20 has nothing on Sorcadin).

You're right. It was a bit of hyperbole on my part, mostly spawned by trying to help someone create a viable Rage Prophet.

I would argue that some of the favored class benefits are such a large carrot that they veer into the territory of opportunity-cost-spawned stick, though.

[Curious]

Hi

If you're going 'Sorcadin', what about Pal 2/Sorc 3/Dragon Disciple xxx

More HP, better BAB plus other special stuff

Thanks
Paul H

The classic sorcadin uses EK and Abjurant champion, because DD sucks.

[Grendus]

I think I'll try Sorcadin once I get the feel for gishing with the magus... also is the sorcadin just pally 2-sorc x?

In 3.5 it was Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. Since those PrC's don't exist, it's not quite as good. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 9 nets you 8th level spells, good HD, some stat bonuses, some AC bonuses, and a breath weapon. You can swap out the last sorc level for EK 10, I took sorc 5 for the bonus bloodline spell.

You could stick DD, but arguably you lose out in the gish department. Your BAB suffers a lot, and the bonuses, while nice, are easily replicated by spells. For that, I'd go straight Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5. Paladin is nice, but taking the two pally levels denies you even 8th level spells... even the half casters would be outclassing you, since some of their 6th level spells would be your 9th level spells.

[subject42]

The classic sorcadin uses EK and Abjurant champion, because DD sucks.

Pathfinder DD doesn't suck as badly as it used to, but it's more tuned toward cranking up the capabilities of a mundane character than it is advancing a spellcaster.