Economics in Fictional Societies

[Oracle_Hunter]

As the topic of fantasy economics oft appears in this forum, I thought this article (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/09/david-graeber-on-the-invention-of-money-%E2%80%93-notes-on-sex-adventure-monomaniacal-sociopathy-and-the-true-function-of-economics.html) might be of interest.

Now, while it is not specifically about the economics of elves or how merfolk markets work it does have a lot to say about the origins of currency, per-currency societies, and "barter economies" in general.

For example, long-distance trade:
One could even make up an imaginary scenario whereby once you start using one divisible/portable/etc commodity as a means of establishing fixed equivalents between other ones, you could start using it for minor occasional transactions, to measure negotiated prices for spot trade swaps on the side, in a more market-driven way. All that is possible and likely as it did happen now and again—after all, we’re dealing with thousands of years here. Likely all sorts of things happened over this long period. However, there is no reason to assume that such a system would produce a concrete medium of exchange regularly used in making these transactions—in fact, given the dangers of ancient trade, insisting that some medium like silver actually be used in all transactions, rather than a credit system, would be completely irrational, since the need to carry around such a money-stuff would make one a far, far, more attractive target to potential thieves. A desert nomad band might not attack a caravan carrying lapis lazuli, especially if the only potential buyers were temples which would probably know all the active merchants and know that you had stolen the stuff (and even if you could trade for them, what are you going to do with a big pile of woolens anyway, you live in a desert?) but they’d definitely go after someone carrying around a universal equivalent. (This is presumably the reason why the great long-distance traders of the Classical World, the Phoenicians, were among the last to adopt coinage—if money was invented as a circulating medium for long-distance trade, they should have been the first.)
Feel free to read the article for more, and either discuss it here or mention your own experiences/difficulties with fictional economies!

[Infernalbargain]

In D&D and PF, the economy is very foreign even if we exclude the dozens of infinite money tricks.

Teleportation is a huge factor to consider in. Effectively eliminates the need for caravans. A permanent teleportation circle between two cities means constant, safe, instant travel between the two cities. Combine this horses being packed to max load with full portable holes gives massive cargo transportation capabilities.

Create food and water completely obsoletes agriculture. Perpetual motion machines are a dime a dozen (putting a flywheel on the edge of a permanent zone of reverse gravity is just a simple example) so things like electricity should be free.

Illusions will have the same effect on the whole of the entertainment industry that synthesizers have had on music. It will shrink the entrance barrier of years of practice down to a basic familiarity with major image.

Resurrection will have an indirect effect, in that you can't just assassinate your competition. Though assassinations will likely turn into a more direct form of economic warfare.

Self-help books will become immensely popular due to the power of diplomancy; as will anything to protect against enchantment spells.

That essentially all the major things I can think of aside from the all cheating to be down with instantaneous conjuration.

[Totally Guy]

I think that a lot of games forget things like social capital and treat money as the modern understanding of money. Someone with land and a title can more easily acquire goods and services. For those outside a set of nobility there isn't much opportunity for changing your place in society as social mobility was not the same as our modern understanding.


I was linked to an Economist article (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/09/labour-markets-contd) the other day that I was surprised by. It hints at a future where money has been augmented by a social capital score which is very similar to the fictional economy presented in FreeMarket, a small press RPG.

[GungHo]

That really depends on how "cheap" or mundane magic is in your world. If arcane or divine casters are not common or if spells require real resources, then, no you may not necessarily be able to create food and water for everyone or have teleporting caravans.

[Chilingsworth]

I'm not certain that article helps with typical fantasy economics much, but it was definately an interesting read. Thanks for linking it!

[Aux-Ash]

It's an interesting theory for sure. Very interesting. And I could imagine it becoming very useful if one creates a "human" (or elven or any other subhuman) setting at the dawn of civilisation.

But most settings will take place long after the establishment of money, so I'm unsure of it's application. It could stimulate some interesting thoughts about the value of money and wealth in society, and it'll probably put tribal societies far from "the civilised lands" in a new light. But I don't think it has much more application really.

Like others have mentioned one of the bigger problems a a whole tend to be how to approach ubiquitous magic. But I disagree with how many imagine such societies would look, humanity is way too complex to set up such utopias (or dystotopias) I think.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's an interesting theory for sure. Very interesting. And I could imagine it becoming very useful if one creates a "human" (or elven or any other subhuman) setting at the dawn of civilisation.

But most settings will take place long after the establishment of money, so I'm unsure of it's application. It could stimulate some interesting thoughts about the value of money and wealth in society, and it'll probably put tribal societies far from "the civilised lands" in a new light. But I don't think it has much more application really.
You'd be surprised how often you hear a novice world-builder step up and say "I want my elves to be different! Instead of money, they barter on the aesthetic value of goods!" :smalltongue:

Reading this article not only helps to remove the concept of barter as "primitive economy," but it gives examples of actual pre-money economies (e.g. the Gunwinngu of West Arnhem land in Australia) which should spur the imagination if nothing else.

Re: Magic
AFAIK, only D&D3 permitted Tippy Societies to exist. Every other system made some effort to prevent magic from replacing mules (http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/05/12/writing-excuses-episode-14-magic-systems-and-their-rules/) which means you can still have a "common" economy which looks something like an actual medieval economy.

[Noedig]

An interesting facet in this discussion that always emerges is the use of certain magics that obviate mundane means i.e. transportation. Yes teleportation circles obviate the need for long distance caravans. But how many people can actually afford to make a teleportation circle. Very rich and powerful city-states certainly, but many other less rich and powerful cities, villages and hamlets cannot and must conduct trade mundanely. Also one has to consider how many wizards are capable of producing said circle, not to mention their availability. Powerful wizards are not made through simple study of tomes. They go out into the world and gain, for lack of a better word, experience. Quite a few of them probably die, thereby eliminating a potential circle maker.

Now, let's consider two cities: Waterdeep, arguably one of the richest and most powerful city in the Forgotten Realms, and Susail (sp?) in Cormyr, another rich and powerful city though less so than Waterdeep. Let us say for the sake of argument these two cities trade regularly, and why not? They're not too far from each other. Waterdeep is practically run by a cabal of powerful wizards. The nation of Cormyr makes a point to produce a large number of powerful wizards for warfare purposes. Susail(sp) is the capital of Cormyr, ergo it likely has powerful wizards in it.

Both cities have the wealth and the means to create a number of teleportation circles to quicken trade and thereby increase the wealth of both nations. Why then, do they not? My belief is that they are using their wizards and gold for more pressing concerns, like survival. Certainly a teleportation grid would be a wonderful boon to trade, but if an Orcish horde comes out of the hills and lays waste to your surrounding country side, there will likely not be anyone left to do the trading, especially if all your wizards are in the city setting up the grid. Waterdeep also has to consider the fact that Undermountain and therefore the Underdark is located directly beneath the city. Bad things live there, and I imagine a good portion of their resources are directed to keeping the bad things out of the city.

This argument, and I use the term lightly, has some holes but for the most part I feel it to be a plausible explanation as to why the Forgotten Realms don't use magic to power their economies.

[JohnnyCancer]

There's also the part where having a teleportation circle in your city is a massive liability if someone you don't like takes over the one on the other end. Also horse fully loaded with extra-dimensional saddle bags could just as easily be carrying a whole bunch of lightweight, compact undead as trade goods.

[Infernalbargain]

There's also the part where having a teleportation circle in your city is a massive liability if someone you don't like takes over the one on the other end. Also horse fully loaded with extra-dimensional saddle bags could just as easily be carrying a whole bunch of lightweight, compact undead as trade goods.

That's why there's dispel.

[Eakin]

I'm not certain that article helps with typical fantasy economics much, but it was definately an interesting read. Thanks for linking it!

This.

Also, the idea that money was brought into existence by lawyers strongly corroborates the idea of it being the root of all evil.

[dsmiles]

Also, the idea that money was brought into existence by lawyers strongly corroborates the idea of it being the root of all evil.But wouldn't that then make lawyers the root of all evil? I mean, since they're the root of the root, right?

[Eakin]

But wouldn't that then make lawyers the root of all evil? I mean, since they're the root of the root, right?

Lawyers -> Money -> Lawyers.

There's no root! Evil is an ontological paradox!

[dsmiles]

Lawyers -> Money -> Lawyers.

There's no root! Evil is an ontological paradox!
Wouldn't that make it like dividing by ----
[/implode]

[Coidzor]

Lawyers -> Money -> Lawyers.

There's no root! Evil is an ontological paradox!

Now the question is. Do lawyers produce more lawyers?

[Cieyrin]

The closest published setting to magically enhanced economies is probably Eberron, given artificers and the various Dragonmarked houses having access to magics more easily without great amounts of research, not to mention Siberys Marks, Lightning Rails and Sky Ships. At the same time, there are a great many threats in the world that keep advancements of a non-military nature stalled where keeping the forces of Xoriat in check, not to mention the machinations of other nations, the Blood of Vol, Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, etc. This doesn't even go into that the setting is still rebuilding from the Last War or that characters above 13th are few and far between.

For Faerun, the instabilities of wars and forces of chaos are just as present, though I could see it being prevalent in previous ages, before the fall of Myth Dranor, when Netheril was still in its hayday, you could see things like that going on. The same could be said of the Suel and Baklunish of Greyhawk prior to the Twin Cataclysms.

Basically, there's just too much conflict in the published settings to really get away with a Tippyverse. Any Teleportation Circle networks going on, given there's a mere dozen such wizards capable of pulling it off, are likely not for goods but for troop movement and supplies. If there was a significant peace time, I could see such efforts turned to commerce but, well, that's just not how the settings are designed.

[hydroplatypus]

The primary reason that I see sconomies not being run by magic is because there are only a few high level wizards. At a given time (excluding PCs) there should be mabye 1 or 2 epic wizards. anymoe and they're not epic. Now the level 18-20 wizards would be more plentiful, but still probably 1 or 2 dozen at most. Now consider that making it permanent would cost XP. I think that the high level wizards wouldn't give away XP lightly. Suppose that each of the 2 dozen wizards capable of doing so cast 1 teleportation circle. That still only links 2 dozen cities. Suppose they make 3 each, that is only 60 cities. A large number to be sure, but everyone still needs to get to the cities to give reasources/food, and to buy manufactured goods. I would be more worried about teleport breaking this than teleportation circle. More wizards capable of casting it.

[Gralamin]

I think that the high level wizards wouldn't give away XP lightly.
Memory Bottles.