Samurai weapons [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 12:32 PM

Spiryt

2011-09-20, 12:45 PM

Well, is this Complete Warrior Samurai class, or some other one in the first place?

Because CW one is obviously and very poor one, pretty much unplayable as written.

Jopustopin

2011-09-20, 12:46 PM

The samaraui is regarded as the worst "PC" base class. It's worse than at least two NPC classes (Magewright and the Adept).

My suggestion: Play a lawful something warblade with all the fluff of the samaraui.

Abaddon87

2011-09-20, 12:48 PM

Well the Naginata is a pretty nice weapon (IRL and in D&D). I used one for a Warblade and lots of whirlwind maneuvers to decimate foes in large numbers. Perhaps a Naginata with the Whirling property (its like a 3/day whirlwind feat effect without needing the feat or its silly prereqs).

I would just carry both a naginata and a katana. If you can keep em at distance the naginata will work great, if not drop it and pull out the sword. Thats pretty acurate historically and works well game-wise too!

P.S. check out OA for some great samurai stuff...

Edit: P.S.S. I also recommend a warblade instead of the CW samurai... much more fun AND martially powerful that that CW mess!

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 12:50 PM

whats OA?

And how comes its the worst PC class?

ZombiePunch

2011-09-20, 12:51 PM

Try the samurai in Oriental Adventures if able,
or just a kensai variant fighter.
Oriental Adventures should also have a bunch of samurai weapons for you to look at.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 12:53 PM

Do not play the CW samurai unless you're pumping your intimidate check. OA samurai is better, but still not that good. Just play a fighter, or warblade if it's allowed.

Spiryt

2011-09-20, 12:54 PM

And how comes its the worst PC class?

It basically gives nothing but terribly late TWF feats, without any sources of damage to support it, and some fear inducing abilities, AFAIR.

So building Samurai even with some fluffed Fighter with proper feats choice tends to be much easier.

Dienekes

2011-09-20, 12:55 PM

So my friend is planning on running a brand new campaign, and sinceI'ive been hooked on playing Total War:Shogun 2, I've decided to play as a Samurai. Now in the CoW book, it states that the samurai dual wield a Katana (bastard sword) and a...Wazakashi or something (basically a short sword). And yes they do have the exotic expertise to use the Katana (duh lol) but due to what my friend and I already know of Samurai historicaly, and just from the options in Shogun 2, he's given me the option of removing the feats i gain at certain levels for dual wielding and replace them with feats reltted to using 2h weapons (such as using a Katana 2handed, or a Yari or Naginata), or a Longbow.

I've already decided I don't want to use a bow, so I'm stuck between either a Naginata/2h Katana, or duel wield the Katana with the "short sword".

Any suggestions?

Really the Samurai class sucks, [just look at the number of feats it gets in comparison to the fighter for instance, and notice you don't get the corresponding 2WF feats until way past when you could get them as a Fighter.]and it'd probably just be easier for everyone involved to just refluff a different martial class. Warblades have been said already, but if your party can't recognize how bad a Samurai is on sight (this isn't a knock at you, different players play at different power levels) I'd suggest just playing a Fighter. You aren't forced into two weapon fighting and you can pretty much pick what you want your samurai to focus in and do it.

Now if you're set on being the Samuria class, I'd suggest Naginata/2h Katana. It's flavorful and more fun than Katana and wakizashi.

Than

2011-09-20, 01:00 PM

A warblade following Diamond Mind discipline has most of the fluff set for you. Including a discipline weapon specifically labelled "bastard sword (katana)".

Abaddon87

2011-09-20, 01:01 PM

A warblade following Diamond Mind discipline has most of the fluff set for you. Including a discipline weapon specifically labelled "bastard sword (katana)".

I would also throw in some Iron Heart discipline too for the punch those moves have!

ZombiePunch

2011-09-20, 01:05 PM

Also if you use the katana 2 handed it doesn't even cost you a feat since tis considered martial (unless you're going halfling, which I haven't gathered).
Playing a samurai type character you could look at the kanabo which stat-wise I believe is just a great club but it's the only way I could let one of my characters use a club.

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 01:06 PM

ok so not a CW samurai, ok got it xD
so what book are some of these classes in (warblade, etc)

Dr.Epic

2011-09-20, 01:07 PM

I think I saw somewhere the historical samurai also wielded a large club-like weapon. Or maybe it was a hammer. Some big, two-handed smashing weapon.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 01:08 PM

ok so not a CW samurai, ok got it xD
so what book are some of these classes in (warblade, etc)

Well, warblade might be too powerful. What's the rest of the group?

Dr. Epic: Yeah, I think you have to use the stats for greatclub.

ZombiePunch

2011-09-20, 01:09 PM

Kensai fighter is in Dragon Magazine Issue 310 page 36

nyarlathotep

2011-09-20, 01:14 PM

OA samurai is obviously in oriental adventures. It's basically fighter with a slightly different feat pool and the ancestral relic feat for free (normally requires exalted).

Dienekes

2011-09-20, 01:18 PM

ok so not a CW samurai, ok got it xD
so what book are some of these classes in (warblade, etc)

Warblade is in Tome of Battle. Which you should get checked with your GM first. It's balanced around the idea that your spellcasters are using their spells to control the battlefield and your Barbarians are all getting Pounce. So it may seem a bit powerful if your wizards are casting Fireball and trying to deal direct damage.

I think I saw somewhere the historical samurai also wielded a large club-like weapon. Or maybe it was a hammer. Some big, two-handed smashing weapon.

Musashi won a duel with an oar. But that was likely not because it was a favored weapon and more of an opportunity to keep his opponent off balance, which Musashi did a lot of.

gorfnab

2011-09-20, 01:18 PM

ok so not a CW samurai, ok got it xD
so what book are some of these classes in (warblade, etc)
Warblade in Tome of Battle.

Edit: Ninja'd

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 01:28 PM

OA samurai is obviously in oriental adventures. It's basically fighter with a slightly different feat pool and the ancestral relic feat for free (normally requires exalted).
The feat list is worse, and they get less feats. The do however get more skill points, an expanded skill list including Iaijitsu Focus, and a good will save.

Musashi won a duel with an oar. But that was likely not because it was a favored weapon and more of an opportunity to keep his opponent off balance, which Musashi did a lot of.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4430012585_a269415cdb.jpg

noparlpf

2011-09-20, 01:30 PM

If I were you I would use the Kensai variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine #310. My "samurai" character was one of those and he worked well.
Chosen weapon: Katana (proficient, and +1 to attack and damage at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level)
Flaws: Code of Arms, Honorable Challenge
Feats: He was primarily a dual-wielder, but with two katana because it worked better mechanically (so obviously he had Oversized TWF). I don't remember what else offhand and don't know where the character sheet is right now.

But yeah, the CW Samurai didn't feel right to me.

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 01:31 PM

yeah i think the giant club thing is a Kanobo, or something with similar spelling. so far i think no matter what actual class I will choose I will be sticking with the Katana/Naginata combo. Quickdraw ftw? lol

Since we are just setting up for the campaign and such, we all have chosen a class yet. so far we have the "Samurai" (me) and then a tank fighter, and then a specialist wizard in enchanting.

Brother Oni

2011-09-20, 01:34 PM

Musashi won a duel with an oar. But that was likely not because it was a favored weapon and more of an opportunity to keep his opponent off balance, which Musashi did a lot of.

Musashi Miyamoto was unique. :smalltongue:

The weapon Swiftmongoose linked to in that picture was commonly referred to as tetsubo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanab%C5%8D).

I would just carry both a naginata and a katana. If you can keep em at distance the naginata will work great, if not drop it and pull out the sword. Thats pretty acurate historically and works well game-wise too!!

Well fluff wise, a samurai was marked out for carrying both swords, the katana and wakizashi. Some samurai, mostly those following the Miyamoto school of thought, fought with twin swords (either katana/katana or katana/wakizashi), and a large number were well known for their skill in other weapons, but they nearly all carried the katana and wakizashi.

ZombiePunch

2011-09-20, 01:37 PM

Playing a samurai type character you could look at the kanabo which stat-wise I believe is just a great club but it's the only way I could let one of my characters use a club.

Kensai fighter is in Dragon Magazine Issue 310 page 36

sometimes I feel invisible lol

Spiryt

2011-09-20, 01:38 PM

As far as katanas and kanabos go, I don't think there's a point to screw yourself (Even if just a little:smallwink:) with wonky 3.5 weapon system - instead of using a katana stats, take a greatsword ones, and fluff it accordingly.

With kanabo, scythe (without the tripping, probably) or just greataxe with changed damage type would work nicely. 1d10 with flat x2 critical is not too tempting.

sometimes I feel invisible lol

You need custom av, I guess. :smallwink:

Some samurai, mostly those following the Miyamoto school of thought, fought with twin swords (either katana/katana or katana/wakizashi), and a large number were well known for their skill in other weapons, but they nearly all carried the katana and wakizashi.

Is this really confirmed? I'm pretty sure Musashi's "two heavens" or whatever parts were written in retirement part of his life, and he had never actually fought that way - this was just theoretical work.

Anyway, wakizashi and katana stuff was mostly civilian/status thing, especially in the era when samurai had lsot their military significance.

In actual warfare horse, spear and bow were always prime of the samurai.

EDIT: And later on, the musket obviously, as well.

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 01:50 PM

So, what would be the best option, OA Samurai, Fighter with the reccomended skill sets/feats, or Warblade?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 01:55 PM

So, what would be the best option, OA Samurai, Fighter with the reccomended skill sets/feats, or Warblade?

Warblade, hands down. To the point where it could be overpowered. What's the rest of the group?

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 02:03 PM

Brother Oni

2011-09-20, 02:05 PM

Is this really confirmed? I'm pretty sure Musashi's "two heavens" or whatever parts were written in retirement part of his life, and he had never actually fought that way - this was just theoretical work.

Possibly, but I never actually said Miyamoto fought like that, just that people who follow his school do.

Anyway, wakizashi and katana stuff was mostly civilian/status thing, especially in the era when samurai had lsot their military significance.

In actual warfare horse, spear and bow were always prime of the samurai.

I agree on the actual warfare, but the status symbol of the daisho was important all the way up to the Meiji period, especially with the samurai right of killing any of lower rank who impugns their honour.

Just caught your edit: matchlocks were mostly used by ashigaru or peasant levies. No real samurai would be caught using such a low class weapon (didn't stop some of them from getting special metal armour though - they weren't that stupid). :smalltongue:

noparlpf

2011-09-20, 02:06 PM

If Fighter is on the table, I still think the Kensai variant is better. Free EWP with any one weapon AND bonuses on attack and damage, all in exchange for one feat.

huttj509

2011-09-20, 02:10 PM

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 02:16 PM

where can i find this kensai fighter varient? all i can find through my serches in peoples homebrew versions

Spiryt

2011-09-20, 02:26 PM

Just caught your edit: matchlocks were mostly used by ashigaru or peasant levies. No real samurai would be caught using such a low class weapon (didn't stop some of them from getting special metal armour though - they weren't that stupid). :smalltongue:

I was pretty sure that many samurai were actually using it pretty frequently, and art of using it, often from horse (now, fighting the lowly unmounted is unhonorable...) was pretty seriosuly treated, similar to other stuff.

I can be very well wrong, but...
http://sworddueling.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/samurai7s.jpg

Possibly, but I never actually said Miyamoto fought like that, just that people who follow his school do.

Are there some records of more or less serious duels fought using TWF stuff?

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 02:27 PM

where can i find this kensai fighter varient? all i can find through my serches in peoples homebrew versions

Kensai fighter is in Dragon Magazine Issue 310 page 36

If I were you I would use the Kensai variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine #310. My "samurai" character was one of those and he worked well.

Tencharacters

Knaight

2011-09-20, 02:32 PM

noparlpf

2011-09-20, 02:33 PM

Dragon Magazine #310. It's also in the Crystal Keep index of base classes if you've ever seen that.

Lateral

2011-09-20, 02:38 PM

there is 5 of us, possibly a 6th. 3 of us know what we are playing a Tank fighter , a "Samurai" (me), and a specialist wizard in enchanting and the 4th is deciding between either a ninja or monk. the rest of the group is still thinking.

In a group at that op-level, I'd steer clear of Warblade- it's too hard to make it at the level of one of those classes (except the Wizard), you'd overshadow everyone and get ToB banned in your group. You'd probably be better off with a Warblade 1/Kensai Fighter 19 and spending some of your feats on Martial Study and Martial Stance. That would keep the ToB element from being too powerful while representing a Samurai fairly well.

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 02:42 PM

well im just gonna have to see if my DM will allow either of them to be used and then go from there. and also I do believe at first it was primarily peasants using matchlock weapons due to them basically being able to spend an entire afternoon practicing and learning to use it to the best it could possibly be used. That and it was a point of honor to master the more difficult weapons such as the bow, katana and naginata. It was also a great honor for the samurai to fire the first arrow of the beginning of a conflict, but once the matchlock weapons were more widespread it would soon become peasants firing first more and more due tot he destructive ability if a wall of lead flying at and enemy formation, and the ability to cause a flank to route.

Krazzman

2011-09-20, 02:50 PM

I don't know what is in that books, but PF has some really nice fluff-armor or weapons from the east in Ultimate Combat. My favourite is the Nodashi (1d10, 18-20x2 S/P with Breach).

For the Class I also would strongly recommend to choose the Warblade.

For my upcoming PF game, one player plays a Gestalt Fighter/Monk. He will wields a Nodashi.

Have a nice Day,
Krazzman

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-20, 03:02 PM

I don't know what is in that books, but PF has some really nice fluff-armor or weapons from the east in Ultimate Combat. My favourite is the Nodashi (1d10, 18-20x2 S/P with Breach).
And you can get it FOR FREE (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)!

For the Class I also would strongly recommend to choose the Warblade.

Did you read past the first few posts?

Olfgar

2011-09-20, 03:23 PM

whats the opinion of the PF samurai? to me it seems very similar to a knight

Knaight

2011-09-20, 03:42 PM

whats the opinion of the PF samurai? to me it seems very similar to a knight

Considering the amount of similarities, it probably should. It is by no means an impressive class, but it looks like it will fit in the group you described pretty well, and it does at least consistently get class features, some of which are half decent.

Jude_H

2011-09-20, 03:49 PM

whats the opinion of the PF samurai? to me it seems very similar to a knightIt probably wouldn't be out of place in your group.

It plays pretty rigidly - its per-day abilities are decent, but the class doesn't get a lot of them. Most of the time, it's just a guy with a horse. That's not a bad thing - the horse is a decent fighter at low levels - but it can be constraining until it gets 3 or so challenges a day.

edit:
If you use it, you might want to ask for an Extra Challenge feat for 2-3 extra uses/day, similar to Extra Rage, Extra Turning or Extra Smiting.

Yanagi

2011-09-20, 06:13 PM

Possibly, but I never actually said Miyamoto fought like that, just that people who follow his school do.

I agree on the actual warfare, but the status symbol of the daisho was important all the way up to the Meiji period, especially with the samurai right of killing any of lower rank who impugns their honour.

Just caught your edit: matchlocks were mostly used by ashigaru or peasant levies. No real samurai would be caught using such a low class weapon (didn't stop some of them from getting special metal armour though - they weren't that stupid). :smalltongue:

The daisho only got popular at the end of the Muromachi (circa 1580). In the Tokugawa is was law that a member of the samurai class had to carry a daisho, and less about honor and status than being compelled to be visually identifiable as a member of the society's martial class...the central government for the whole Edo period was preoccupied with how to keep local governance and local militaries from opposing Edo. Half of this was stripping weapons from normal folk--Hideyoshi's famous "Sword Hunt"--the other half was locking down and continuously monitoring the samurai so that there at once was a professional fighting class if needed, but also that those individuals had a hard time getting organized, getting money, or hiding away to conspire against the shogunate.

Kirisute gomen wasn't nearly as nutty and arbitrary as it's romantically presented--you had to justify yourself after-the-fact--and from the Tokugawa onwards that "right" was dangerous to exercise, as the central government was a lot more stringent about the wherefores and quick to chop heads.

As for teppo--guns were given to levies because they took less training and could be used effectively massed and applied against cavalry (ie the targets were generally samurai of high enough standing to have access to a horse and armor), which is basically how they were used them during the wars for unification and the invasion of Korea. But this didn't mean that samurai didn't own or carry personal firearms. Furthermore, firearm production throughout the Tokugawa was heavily regulated with consumption availability set entirely by Edo. Private individuals could own hunting pieces and personal arms as a novelty--and there was essentially a subset "gun appreciation culture" that developed amongst those with the income to indulge it--but during the Sakoku the samurai were essentially given a sop as the martial-culture caste even as actually control of arms and strategic resources were being leveraged into the hands of the central government. Nonetheless there were artillery and marksmanship schools run and attended by samurai through the Tokugawa, and bujutsu that instructed proper use of firearms. Saigo, the fellow around whom the Satsuma Rebellion...the last hurrah of the traditional samurai versus the modern army...ran an artillery schools, and he and his fellows rebels made full use of available firearms.

The stigma of "honorable weaponry" and such and forth is basically a retroactive interpretation heavily skewed by the rigid societal roles set up in the Edo period, reinforced by the Meiji government abandonning the samurai in favor of a modern army *and* banning carrying personal weapons (making the sword a kind of metonym for the diminishment of samurai), then romanticized by the armchair samurai of the last century.

I've already decided I don't want to use a bow, so I'm stuck between either a Naginata/2h Katana, or duel wield the Katana with the "short sword".

Why are you stuck?

Samurai used tons of weapons--sure, during the periods of massed warfare choices were set by the uniformity of strategic role, but bujutsu included a lot of different training options. And during the Tokugawa--where's there's little or no massed warfare and samurai are basically creating martial arts as a social construct of individual combat to demonstrate their personal worth--you get this explosion of schools teaching uncommon weapons, modding existing weapons, et cetera.

Everybody remembers the swordsmen, but that weird age in which Musashi roamed there were many individuals who mastered, or even pioneered, of techniques with other weapons:

- Everybody remembers Musashi for his advice about dual-wielding katana and wakazashi, but forgets that he was a big promoters of the jutte (truncheon and swordcatcher), with and without a sword, and there are jutte forms in Niten Ichi Ryu. Muso Gonnosuke is someone who beat Musashi once (they had several duels)--he fought with and developed forms for jutte and the jo staff. The Yagyu Shinkage Ryu school--home of a handful of famous fighters--teaches the sword, the jobo, and shuriken throwing. Lots of the older bujstu including one or more forms of staff fighting--short long, etc.

- Shishdo Baiken and Yamada Shinryukan were famous users of the kusarigama in personal combat. The former fought and lost to Musashi, the latter was tricked into a fight in a dense bamboo grove and killed by Araki Mataemon.

-Spear techniques...and even customized spears with glaive-like additions (such as a kamayari, jumojiyari, and hokoyari)...are persistent through Japanese martial arts. Sticking with the Musashi theme...look at Hozoin In'ei.

-More apocryphally, you've got stories and tall tales in which the choice of weapon makes the samurai stand out--particularly in period art woodblock print--where an unusual weapon is a quick signifier of "bad*ss." Sasake Kojiro apparently fought several duels using an iron fan. Horibe Yasubei is famously portrayed with a otsuchi...a giant hammer used for breaching gates. Battle scenes depict with masakari--battle axes--in the infantry's front line (probably because they're big and dramatic looking).

And that's before you stretch culturally and start looking Okinawa, China, and Korea, whose own warrior traditions have cross-pollinated with the samurai ethos for centuries.

Dr.Epic

2011-09-20, 08:11 PM

Musashi won a duel with an oar. But that was likely not because it was a favored weapon and more of an opportunity to keep his opponent off balance, which Musashi did a lot of.

Yeah, I meant real weapons and not something improvise you grabbed at the last second. I'm pretty certain no one in Feudal Japan ever picked up a boat oar and thought "This'd be a far better weapon than rowing instrument. We should carry these into combat from now on."

Yanagi

2011-09-20, 09:02 PM

Yeah, I meant real weapons and not something improvise you grabbed at the last second. I'm pretty certain no one in Feudal Japan ever picked up a boat oar and thought "This'd be a far better weapon than rowing instrument. We should carry these into combat from now on."

Ahem. Except in Ryukyu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eku)

Zonugal

2011-09-20, 09:12 PM

Hmm.... You want something better than the CWar Samurai and already have a Fighter in your party (and thus probably don't want to step on their toes)...

What about the knight? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2)

Strong BaB, Good Will save (which adds to the flavor of the 'samurai'), excellent hit die, okay skills for a martial warrior class, solid proficiencies and the Knight's Code serves well as a mechanical representation of Bushido (eh... Go with me here...).

The only thing that I would try to get homebrewed is all the shield-related abilities. Ask you DM if you can swap them out for something else (the kai shout from the CWar samurai might be one or simply afford you some armor bonuses).

But the bonus with the Knight is you can really be a defensive force on the battlefield, have a truly commanding presence and it is free (with it being online)... Thoughts?

Dusk Eclipse

2011-09-20, 09:19 PM

Ok you all have mentioned the warblade and I can't believe no one has thought of linking it? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

Zonugal

2011-09-20, 09:26 PM

Ok you all have mentioned the warblade and I can't believe no one has thought of linking it? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

May be a tad over-powered for what his party is working with right now.

You don't jump from basic math to calculus.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-09-20, 09:30 PM

May be a tad over-powered for what his party is working with right now.

You don't jump from basic math to calculus.

Didn't quite catch the op level of the party, my bad :smallredface:

still it would be a good opportunity to introduce some of the best classes in the game...

Edit: Besides calculus is fun:smalltongue:

Zonugal

2011-09-20, 09:47 PM

I think Knight might serve well as a transitional class.

Although honestly you can make a 'Samurai' with a Fighter or Ranger with enough planning and re-flavoring.

Starbuck_II

2011-09-20, 10:39 PM

I think I saw somewhere the historical samurai also wielded a large club-like weapon. Or maybe it was a hammer. Some big, two-handed smashing weapon.

Deadlist Warrior had them wield a Tetsubo. It is basically a better version of the greatvlub (because the greatclub stinks).

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-09-20, 11:38 PM

Has anyone recommended Pathfinder's Samurai class from Ultimate Combat?

drakir_nosslin

2011-09-21, 02:59 AM

If Fighter is on the table, I still think the Kensai variant is better. Free EWP with any one weapon AND bonuses on attack and damage, all in exchange for one feat.

Or just go all out ToB. The tank plays a crusader, the samurai goes warblade, the monk/ninja swordsage and the mage stays a mage.
You get a much more balanced party that way.

Ravens_cry

2011-09-21, 03:37 AM

Or just go all out ToB. The tank plays a crusader, the samurai goes warblade, the monk/ninja swordsage and the mage stays a mage.
You get a much more balanced party that way.
How is that "more balanced"? Low optimization all around is still balanced.
Also, unless one asks for help specifically, telling another player words to the effect of "that sucks, play this instead." is rather insulting in my opinion.

Pancritic

2011-09-22, 07:14 AM

Abaddon87

2011-09-22, 01:40 PM

So, what would be the best option, OA Samurai, Fighter with the reccomended skill sets/feats, or Warblade?

I again would say Warblade from Tome of Battle. It is an excellent class with lots of power and cool abilities. It also rewards you for playing a smart fighter type with its bonuses based on your INT. A Warblade who focuses on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart abilities and carries a dashio (Katana and Wakazashi), a Naginata and a Greatbow (or longbow if you dont want to pay a feat) would make a fine samurai indeed!

Edit: I understand the party is a bit underwhelming (enchantment mage... are they trying to be less casterawesome?) however you dont HAVE to be the "omg that guy killed all the monsters wtfbbq!" Warblade. RP it out. Perhaps your the quiet swordmaster who only draws his blade when there is a foe worth fighting. Then you go to work, and insist on calling out the strongest opponents to fight you single combat style.

drakir_nosslin

2011-09-22, 02:24 PM

How is that "more balanced"? Low optimization all around is still balanced.
Also, unless one asks for help specifically, telling another player words to the effect of "that sucks, play this instead." is rather insulting in my opinion.

Well, since they do have a wizard in an otherwise pretty low-tier party I thought that it might lessen the gap between the classes.

And nowhere did I say that the group's choices sucked, so don't put any words in my mouth, I really dislike that.

JaronK

2011-09-22, 02:52 PM

Abaddon87

2011-09-22, 03:51 PM

I do think Warblade is going to be a lot more fun than most other choices, but I'd recommend making sure to have enough White Raven to get the other people going well. That should deal with any balance issues.

JaronK

+1 to this! Look at the charge maneuvers primarily. Very samurai-like!

Edit: Ya know... now that I think about it, a Knight (PHII) would make a great samurai if ToB is a no and you dont want to search for Dragon Mags. I dont see one class ability that doesnt fit a samurai!

NNescio

2011-09-22, 04:03 PM

Is this really confirmed? I'm pretty sure Musashi's "two heavens" or whatever parts were written in retirement part of his life, and he had never actually fought that way - this was just theoretical work.

Anyway, wakizashi and katana stuff was mostly civilian/status thing, especially in the era when samurai had lsot their military significance.

In actual warfare horse, spear and bow were always prime of the samurai.

EDIT: And later on, the musket obviously, as well.

Niten Ichi-ryū? Had its beginnings when Musashi fought a group of swordsmen, archers, and musketeers (with most of them being samurai) from the Yoshioka school in a supposed 'duel'. Not that Musashi fought on their terms (he arrived early and ambushed them).

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-22, 04:12 PM

I again would say Warblade from Tome of Battle. It is an excellent class with lots of power and cool abilities. It also rewards you for playing a smart fighter type with its bonuses based on your INT. A Warblade who focuses on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart abilities and carries a dashio (Katana and Wakazashi), a Naginata and a Greatbow (or longbow if you dont want to pay a feat) would make a fine samurai indeed!

Edit: I understand the party is a bit underwhelming (enchantment mage... are they trying to be less casterawesome?) however you dont HAVE to be the "omg that guy killed all the monsters wtfbbq!" Warblade. RP it out. Perhaps your the quiet swordmaster who only draws his blade when there is a foe worth fighting. Then you go to work, and insist on calling out the strongest opponents to fight you single combat style.

Yay, now you're an overpowered arrogant guy who doesn't help the party!

BlueInc

2011-09-22, 04:16 PM

I do think Warblade is going to be a lot more fun than most other choices, but I'd recommend making sure to have enough White Raven to get the other people going well. That should deal with any balance issues.

JaronK

^This. Be the tactical leader of the group, making them work to their fullest potential. A monk's flurry of blows looks a lot better when he gets a +4 to every attack, which is something you could be giving him at first level.

I also agree that the monk of the group should play a swordsage (or psychic warrior, for that matter). Just write "Monk" on your character sheet and you're gtg.

Also, here's some fancy cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) with all the ToB maneuvers on them.

Zonugal

2011-09-22, 06:36 PM

+1 to this! Look at the charge maneuvers primarily. Very samurai-like!

Edit: Ya know... now that I think about it, a Knight (PHII) would make a great samurai if ToB is a no and you dont want to search for Dragon Mags. I dont see one class ability that doesnt fit a samurai!

The shield abilities aren't exactly the most Samurai-themed...

Starbuck_II

2011-09-22, 07:30 PM

The shield abilities aren't exactly the most Samurai-themed...

Depends on the era, there were Samurai that had Shields.

Stone Heart

2011-09-22, 08:00 PM

I know its already been brought up, but I just want to put another vote for the Pathfinder Samurai. Besides the obviousness of it being by fluff a samurai class, its a pretty decent class when looking for a fighter type character.

Warblade is a really good class I will admit, but again, can be really overpowered.

Abaddon87

2011-09-22, 08:01 PM

Yay, now you're an overpowered arrogant guy who doesn't help the party!

And what part of fighting the monsters your team needs help with isnt helping the party? Besides, why should someone hobble themselves just because their friend wants to play a monk?

Daftendirekt

2011-09-22, 08:02 PM

And what part of fighting the monsters your team needs help with isnt helping the party? Besides, why should someone hobble themselves just because their friend wants to play a monk?

He was referring to this with that comment:

Edit: I understand the party is a bit underwhelming (enchantment mage... are they trying to be less casterawesome?) however you dont HAVE to be the "omg that guy killed all the monsters wtfbbq!" Warblade. RP it out. Perhaps your the quiet swordmaster who only draws his blade when there is a foe worth fighting. Then you go to work, and insist on calling out the strongest opponents to fight you single combat style.

And the average schmoe monster wouldn't be worth fighting, thus he'd just stand there and not help out.

hex0

2011-09-22, 08:23 PM

Depends on the era, there were Samurai that had Shields.

I'd suggest a slight tweak here and there to the Knight to make a Samurai class. Switch the Shield stuff to Cleave stuff. (Maybe Supreme Cleave like the Sword and Fist Samurai iirc). Change the focus on Mounted Combat to charging attacks. Initiative boosts would be nice too. (Iajutsu)

Also, the Daikatana is a Greatsword ;0

NNescio

2011-09-22, 08:37 PM

I'd suggest a slight tweak here and there to the Knight to make a Samurai class. Switch the Shield stuff to Cleave stuff. (Maybe Supreme Cleave like the Sword and Fist Samurai iirc). Change the focus on Mounted Combat to charging attacks. Initiative boosts would be nice too. (Iajutsu)

Also, the Daikatana is a Greatsword ;0

Samurai are also mounted cavalrymen (and horse archers), and there is no such thing as the Daikatana.

Abaddon87

2011-09-22, 08:43 PM

and there is no such thing as the Daikatana.

Ninja'ed... but thank you!

Lateral

2011-09-22, 08:52 PM

Samurai are also mounted cavalrymen (and horse archers), and there is no such thing as the Daikatana.

True, but there's no reason there can't be in D&D; true longswords are nothing like D&D longswords (they're really more like bastard swords) and D&D ninjas have magical powers. It doesn't necessarily conform to the actual samurai, just pop culture perceptions of samurai; same thing with monks, ninjas, and knights. Therefore, there's no reason that there can't be a daikatana, and samurai generally fight with katanas and/or wakizashi, plus occasionally kanabo or naginata.

NNescio

2011-09-22, 09:00 PM

True, but there's no reason there can't be in D&D; true longswords are nothing like D&D longswords (they're really more like bastard swords) and D&D ninjas have magical powers. It doesn't necessarily conform to the actual samurai, just pop culture perceptions of samurai; same thing with monks, ninjas, and knights. Therefore, there's no reason that there can't be a daikatana, and samurai generally fight with katanas and/or wakizashi, plus occasionally kanabo or naginata.

Half of the problem is phonological. As in "That's not how Japanese (The Language) Works".

Lateral

2011-09-22, 09:05 PM

Half of the problem is phonological. As in "That's not how Japanese (The Language) Works".

Yeah, but in pop culture a daikatana is perceived as its own thing, so why not in D&D? Again, real longswords and bastard swords are the same; there's no reason that D&D can't call a masterwork bastard sword a 'katana' and a masterwork greatsword a 'daikatana.'

Dusk Eclipse

2011-09-22, 09:11 PM

Yeah, but in pop culture a daikatana is perceived as its own thing, so why not in D&D? Again, real longswords and bastard swords are the same; there's no reason that D&D can't call a masterwork bastard sword a 'katana' and a masterwork greatsword a 'daikatana.'

Wait, maybe not Daikatana; but Nodachi? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodachi)

flumphy

2011-09-22, 09:28 PM

In the game that gave us the gnome hooked hammer and the dire flail, are you seriously so against the possibility of a daikatana?

Anyway, OP, if you're going with warblade (I wouldn't have, in your party, to be honest, even though it's my favorite class in the game) I second the use of White Raven maneuvers. I'd also look at things like the counters in Diamond Mind and Iron Heart that are more defensive. If you focus on damage, well...the guy who said you could get the book banned wasn't exaggerating.

Knaight

2011-09-22, 09:48 PM

Therefore, there's no reason that there can't be a daikatana, and samurai generally fight with katanas and/or wakizashi, plus occasionally kanabo or naginata.

Sure, but that assumes you prefer the default weaponry aesthetic. Considering some of the stupidity that has come out of it (the gyrspike for example), that's not a safe assumption.

Abaddon87

2011-09-22, 11:01 PM

Wait, maybe not Daikatana; but Nodachi? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodachi)

Yes. I was not saying "you cant have a 7 foot long katana!"... Just that its not called a daikatana.

And the more I think about it, knight is starting to grow on me for a replacement of samurai-like character ideas. Sure refluff the shield thing for some bonus to ac when using a samurai weapon. w/e