An RPG Where Every Class is the Fighter

[Doccit]

Does such a thing exist? Where there are no classes or class features, and only tonnes and tonnes feats? It's an interesting concept, has it been done before? I've just had the idea, and it doesn't seem familiar. Of course, so the game wouldn't be confusing as hell the core books would probably have to include a list of suggested builds, but it would be a cool thing for an optimizer to play with, and by removing archetypes would give people a hell of a lot of creative freedom with their characters.

[jindra34]

Sounds kind of like your looking for a point-buy based systems such as GURPS, Shadowrun, and Champions.

[Knaight]

Does such a thing exist? Where there are no classes or class features, and only tonnes and tonnes feats? It's an interesting concept, has it been done before? I've just had the idea, and it doesn't seem familiar. Of course, so the game wouldn't be confusing as hell the core books would probably have to include a list of suggested builds, but it would be a cool thing for an optimizer to play with, and by removing archetypes would give people a hell of a lot of creative freedom with their characters.

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with anything other than D&D? Because that seriously alters the tenor of this conversation. As such, splitting the questions and assuming minimal familiarity with non D&D RPGs:

Are there RPGs which don't have classes? Yes. I suspect they are in the majority, and if you ignore D&D they have the most players.

Are there RPGs with classes that lack class features? Yes. Usually, classes alter the costs of skills and such, and "skills" include things D&D wraps into classes. For instance, BAB and similar are likely gone and replaced by several combat skills.

Are there RPGs with lots of feats and no classes? It depends on how you look at feats. If you are asking about feats in particular, there is Mutants and Masterminds, if you are asking about something akin to the D&D feat - that is to say a discrete power you either have or you don't - there are a lot of these, usually classified as Gifts, Traits, Advantages, so on and so forth. There is also the matter of Aspects, but that introduces rather a lot of complication.

Does removing forced archetypes give freedom to characters? Yes. There are game systems which can encompass everything from realistic stone age hunters to star wars characters, freedom to characters is easy.

Are suggested builds necessary? Examples are always good, but whether you need full on suggested builds depends on the system. Its nice to have in GURPS, which is a multi book monstrosity that rivals D&D 3.5 in mechanics, in Risus it is pretty pointless, but Risus is under 30 pages, and has fewer rules in the entire game than D&D 3.5 does in Grappling.

[Human Paragon 3]

By the way, have you seen this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)? The warrior and expert are sort of what you're talking about, if you did want to stick to a d20 chassis.

[Knaight]

By the way, have you seen this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)? The warrior and expert are sort of what you're talking about, if you did want to stick to a d20 chassis.

Mutants and Masterminds is closer, and it sounds like Far West will be closer still.

[Arbane]

Iron Gauntlets is a d20-variant where pretty much all the PCs are fighty-types. Pretty sure it has class features, though.

The Conan RPG is similar, but it does have a spellcasting class.

If we leave the realm of the mundane, Weapons of the Gods is all about kung-fu fighting, but with the sort of physics-breaking moves you'd see in Storm Riders or Kung Fu Cult Master.

[Knaight]

If we leave the realm of the mundane, Weapons of the Gods is all about kung-fu fighting, but with the sort of physics-breaking moves you'd see in Storm Riders or Kung Fu Cult Master.

Qin: The Warring States is similar in that regard, though heavily toned down. Still, it handles Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon levels of wuxia just fine. Its classless, but the Taos somewhat resemble feats, and the way the magic system works also resembles feats in some way. Skills persist, but it basically fits the requirements of the OP, assuming that feats don't actually have to be "feats".

[Thrawn183]

The closest I can think of is Iron Heroes.

[Pilum]

Pendragon, by definition, surely? IF it's still around of course. And ok, technically there are rules for casters but when i played regularly (4th, if it has moved on) I don't think I saw anyone actually try them.

[Knaight]

I think there are two interpretations here.
1) Everyone is some sort of martial character. Pendragon fits this perfectly, as basically everyone is a knight.
2) The system is classless and semi "feat" based.

If the OP could clarify, that would be nice.

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought of Pendragon, but then I said 'tons and tons of feats' ... why are you assuming a D20 style game, though?

[gooddragon1]

Does such a thing exist? Where there are no classes or class features, and only tonnes and tonnes feats? It's an interesting concept, has it been done before? I've just had the idea, and it doesn't seem familiar. Of course, so the game wouldn't be confusing as hell the core books would probably have to include a list of suggested builds, but it would be a cool thing for an optimizer to play with, and by removing archetypes would give people a hell of a lot of creative freedom with their characters.

4e D&D. There aren't no class features, but every class is almost the same.

[Cieyrin]

The closest I can think of is Iron Heroes.

Pretty much my answer as well. Every class is a basically a specialized Fighter type, with a bit of Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue thrown in with some of the classes. If you want a truly feat based Fighter, look no further than the Man at Arms: flexibility to choose the class skill groups you want, bonus feats out the ass, floating feats that you can reassign on a daily basis. Versatility is the word. The wizard stand-in should probably be ignored, though their second attempt is actually pretty decent for fitting with the rest of the class systems. It makes a difference when you don't just throw it in at the last moment. :smallwink:

[TheEmerged]

Sounds kind of like your looking for a point-buy based systems such as GURPS, Shadowrun, and Champions.

*Technically*, the system is named HERO. Champions is the superheroic setting for the HERO System. It's also the only one most people know about for HERO, so the confusion is understandable.

I've run numerous campaigns using the Ninja HERO rules. In HERO there aren't the pre-built feats the original poster might be looking for, there's a power-creation structure that allows you to build the feats. Under the most recent edition(s), they've been putting sample power constructions in supplements.

===================

Here's an example. You want to give a character with 8" (8 hexes) of Running the ability to do so without leaving a trail or across substances that normally couldn't be moved safely across (insert water-walking joke here). You want the same character to be able to fall safely by running down the side of a building/cliff or somesuch.

Instead of looking up a feat to do so, you give the character a power (Gliding is appropriate in this case). You then give the power advantages or disadvantages appropriate to what you want to do (+1/4 for not having to deal with turn mode, -1/2 if the character has to begin & end on a "safe" surface, and so forth). You then do some Junior High math* and that's what the power will cost you. In this case, probably 6.5 points. To put that in perspective, your character probably has 150-200 points for the type of campaign I'd assume you to be describing.

*Reports that HERO requires a Master's degree are greatly exagerated.

I'll be the first to acknowledge it's more work intensive than some players are comfortable with. The old wag is that the good thing about HERO is that you can build nearly anything, the bad news is that you *have* to build nearly everything.

[YouLostMe]

The tools for this exist in D&D all ready. If someone ever wanted to, they could have a fighter, and search out a bunch of good fighter feats from homebrewers (COUGH Ziegander COUGH) and put them in a big pile.

[Mando Knight]

4e D&D. There aren't no class features, but every class is almost the same.
There are class features (though they're rather front-loaded), and the powers distinguish one kind of character from another quite easily once you look into the system a little. You could probably houserule it into a classless-like system, but out of the box it's very class-based.

[flumphy]

I have this really old, out-of-print Fading Suns d20 system that manages to be class-based without having much in the way of actual class features.

Basically, there are class skills and different categories of feats. Fighting classes get athletic skills and combat feats. Aristocrats get a bunch of social skills and feats. Skill monkeys get all kinds of skills and a limited selection of both social and combat feats. Magic users get spells as skils and magic-related feats.

Yep, spells as skills. Kind of like the truenamer, only worse, which makes spellcasters utterly worthless. I wouldn't say it's a good system, despite the Fading Suns setting being ridiculously awesome. I'm just saying that such a thing exists.

[Weimann]

Exalted is an example of a class-less system where you get to buy your abilities as you wish. Nothing but priorities and xp prevents you from being a melee combat monster, a tactical general, an ingenious engineer and a demon-summoning sorcerer all at once.

[Rixx]

True20 may be what you're looking for. It has a somewhat flimsy class system that's easily disposed of, but 90% of your character is feats.

One thing I really like about it is that the magic/powers system is also feat based.

[jindra34]

Exalted is an example of a class-less system where you get to buy your abilities as you wish. Nothing but priorities and xp prevents you from being a melee combat monster, a tactical general, an ingenious engineer and a demon-summoning sorcerer all at once.

Exalted has classes (the various types of Exalts and castes) its just they don't impact the game as much as DnD classes do.

[WitchSlayer]

Ooh ooh! A Song of Ice and Fire RPG!

[BayardSPSR]

You can run Destiny of Heroes this way really easily just by agreeing to leave out the spells, songs, prayers, and magic stats (which is actually a LOT easier than it sounds). It even preserves tactical balance.

[Arbane]

Yep, spells as skills. Kind of like the truenamer, only worse, which makes spellcasters utterly worthless.

One of GURPS's several magic systems does skills as spells, and it seems to work out OK. (It's also a way of enforcing balance - if you want to throw fireballs, you won't have the time or character points to also be a master swordsman.)

[flumphy]

One of GURPS's several magic systems does skills as spells, and it seems to work out OK. (It's also a way of enforcing balance - if you want to throw fireballs, you won't have the time or character points to also be a master swordsman.)

Except GURPs gives you enough points to actually be able to cast more than 3-4 mediocre spells on a character whose only effective ability is to cast spells. And the DCs scale with each casting, so you can't even spam them. I'm not saying the concept of skills as spells is inherently broken. I'm just saying that in this particular system, it was.

[Tengu_temp]

Wouldn't it be faster to name all the modern RPGs that still have classes?

[Weimann]

Exalted has classes (the various types of Exalts and castes) its just they don't impact the game as much as DnD classes do.I admit that picking your Exaltation or similar does create a limit for you, in that the different Exaltations and similar does have different sets of charms. I'd argue, however, that the impact of that choice is so minor as to be moot. Every Exaltation can excel within every aspect of the game (at least, that's the intention), so what you chose is essentially method, not ability.

[Knaight]

Wouldn't it be faster to name all the modern RPGs that still have classes?

Yes. However, of the classless RPGs, there are a bunch that don't have anything that even vaguely resembles a feat system. There are pure skill systems, skill and description systems, description systems, so on and so forth. For instance, all of these classless systems don't have an analog:
Very Rules Light: Most of them. Over the Edge, Risus, Wushu, Some Fudge, Minimus.
Rules Light: QAGS, YAGS, All FATE systems (Spirit of the Century, Dresden Files, Diaspora, Starblazer Aventures, Kingdoms of Anglerre, etc.), Most Fudge (Terra Incognita, Over the Fudge, Five Point Fudge, The Orb, Goblyns, Deyrini Adventure Game), Warrior Rogue and Mage, 3:16 Carnage Amongst the Stars.
Rules Medium: Sorcerer, Paladin, Dogs in the Vineyard, Mouse Guard, Fiasco, Nobilis.
Rules Heavy: Burning Wheel, Pendragon.

This is just off the top of my head, and ignores games I'm aware of that are very small. Everything on the list is common enough that someone on the thread other than me is likely to know about it. There are far more, even within this category, and I'd argue that the feat system style shows up mostly in rules heavy simulationist games, as well as D&D. Where it intersects with a classless system is pretty small. GURPS and HERO are the obvious cases, but there aren't all that many.

[Tengu_temp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP phrased his request the way he did mostly because he's unfamiliar with RPGs other than DND. Any open, non-class-based system will fit the bill.

However, it's true that there are also systems that lack classes yet can't be considered open, such as Bliss Stage. Even though these games have no classes, you still have to play a specific concept.

[Knaight]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP phrased his request the way he did mostly because he's unfamiliar with RPGs other than DND.

That would be my guess as well, but I don't really know. It might have been a request for a classless system in which the most important character building element were discrete, largely Boolean states which conferred mechanical change and options on a character. Certainly, the appreciation of feats suggests this.

That said, if the OP would weigh in on this already, it would be very convenient.