New DM, taking crap from players

[Mclane]

I have a question. The previous DM in my group told me, and my group, that we were not allowed to spend more than 1/3 of our new character's level based wealth on a single item. Is this an official rule, something he house ruled, or is it just an accepted rule? One of my players is giving me hell because "it doesn't make sense":smallannoyed: This is his main argument every time he complains about me or the previous DM's rules, even if it's in the actual books. Also, he told me about a rule where you can just pay 100 gp and get a masterwork item that give you a plus two to any skill you choose at the moment of item creation. He swears in a very annoying and angry way that it came from an actual book. So, does anyone know what book it came from?

[Elitarismo]

There is a single item price limit. There is not a 100 gold MW item that gives +2 to any stat. There are cheap MW items that give +2 to any skill.

[noparlpf]

Oh, geez.

Well, it's generally accepted (and I believe it says this in a book somewhere) that you can't spend your entire WBL on one thing because generally you don't get it and have it all at once. I don't remember what the number is in the books, but 1/3 sounds fair to me.

As for the +2 to a stat, he's completely misunderstanding something. I'd bet he's thinking of masterwork tools (Player's Handbook page 129/130), which cost 50 gp, and provide a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check. For example, masterwork artisan's tools provide a +2 on a specific type of crafting check. People often abuse the open-ended quality of the description for the masterwork tool to have masterwork tools for anything, even if thematically it doesn't make sense. I could probably imagine a masterwork tool that works for most skills, but people often just say, "It's a masterwork tool!" and don't actually describe it.

[Mclane]

Oh my bad. I meant skill, not stats. Sorry :smallredface: Where is the MW item rule?

[Firechanter]

#1, item value limit: that sounds familiar. I just can't quite put my finger on it where that's written. I'm flipping through the DMG as I write. If it is a houserule, it's a fairly common one.

#2, masterwork bonuses: there are "masterwork tools" that cost iirc 50GP and give +2 to a particular _skill_. Strictly by RAW, this can be _any_ skill, even one you can't think of what kind of tool could even exist for it, such as Concentration.
However, that applies strictly and solely to skills, not to abilities or any other stats. It's in the Player's Handbook, Goods and Services section.

[SamBurke]

I have a question. The previous DM in my group told me, and my group, that we were not allowed to spend more than 1/3 of our new character's level based wealth on a single item. Is this an official rule, something he house ruled, or is it just an accepted rule? One of my players is giving me hell because "it doesn't make sense":smallannoyed: This is his main argument every time he complains about me or the previous DM's rules, even if it's in the actual books. Also, he told me about a rule where you can just pay 100 gp and get a masterwork item that give you a plus two to any stat you choose at the moment of item creation. He swears in a very annoying and angry way that it came from an actual book. So, does anyone know what book it came from?

It's 1/2, actually.

The player is completely bluffing you. It should be about 4k, maybe 2k.

[Mclane]

As for the +2 to a stat, he's completely misunderstanding something. I'd bet he's thinking of masterwork tools (Player's Handbook page 129/130), which cost 50 gp, and provide a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check. For example, masterwork artisan's tools provide a +2 on a specific type of crafting check. People often abuse the open-ended quality of the description for the masterwork tool to have masterwork tools for anything, even if thematically it doesn't make sense. I could probably imagine a masterwork tool that works for most skills, but people often just say, "It's a masterwork tool!" and don't actually describe it.

Well, he said that someone in the playground told him about the masterwork item rule, and told him it was in a book. But he apparently doesn't know what book it's in.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I remember reading in the DMG, not sure where, that when making a non-1st level character, it is genearlly expected for DM's to not allow a player to purchase an item equal to or greater than half WBL. I don't think it was a hard and fast rule, just a strong suggestion.

[noparlpf]

Oh my bad. I meant skill, not stats. Sorry :smallredface: Where is the MW item rule?


I'd bet he's thinking of masterwork tools (Player's Handbook page 129/130)

There ya go.

[Ursus the Grim]

It's 1/2, actually.

Wrong. Technically everyone is. The guideline as outlined in DMG 199 is as follows.

You can exercise an item-by-item veto, but an easier method is to use maximum cost for a single item as a limit. For example, while an 8th-level character has 27000 gp to spend, you can limit him to owning no single item worth more than one-quarter of that [...]

Its a very reasonable house-rule to make, but technically its a suggestion, not a rule. The DMG sums up the logic of it in the following text, but essentially it boils down to encouraging balanced characters rather than splurging on one incredibly powerful item.

In after swordsage.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tell him that you don't have the time to go through every book and look up the rule for him to use. He needs to look up any items and varrients he uses and to tell you where they are so you can confirm them.

"I found it on the internet" is not a book, nor is "it's is defiantly in a real book somewhere". If you can't find the rule or item, them what you are doing is making things up from half remembered mumblings. Remind him that only the DM is allowed to do that.

[noparlpf]

Tell him that you don't have the time to go through every book and look up the rule for him to use. He needs to look up any items and varrients he uses and to tell you where they are so you can confirm them.

"I found it on the internet" is not a book, nor is "it's is defiantly in a real book somewhere". If you can't find the rule or item, them what you are doing is making things up from half remembered mumblings. Remind him that only the DM is allowed to do that.

Don't actually tell him that the DM is allowed to do that or he'll start saying that you're cheating.

Edit: Just so you know, I for one make things up from half-remembered rules all the time when I DM rather than looking them up when someone contradicts me. But I maintain that my word is law and don't let them know I don't remember exactly what the book says.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"it's is defiantly in a real book somewhere"

It's "definitely". And either "it is" or "it's", not "it's is".

[herrhauptmann]

#2, masterwork bonuses: there are "masterwork tools" that cost iirc 50GP and give +2 to a particular _skill_. Strictly by RAW, this can be _any_ skill, even one you can't think of what kind of tool could even exist for it, such as Concentration.
However, that applies strictly and solely to skills, not to abilities or any other stats. It's in the Player's Handbook, Goods and Services section.

Personally, I require a player to actually describe the item, and how he'd use it while performing the skill. Otherwise, he doesn't get to purchase it. It saves the whole "I've got a +2 tool I can use for my spellcraft check, even when I'm holding things in each hand."
Of course, if he keeps claiming things are in a book, have him show it to you.

OP:
Why do you game with this guy? Good friend? Or just someone to fill a spot in the table? It sounds like he gives you guys a lot of grief, and if he's not taking his turn DMing...

[Mclane]

Well, yes, I play with him because he, like everyone else I play with, is one of my best friends. He gave the last DM crap in spite of the fact that we're all good friends, and now I guess he's just repeating the cycle.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, yes, I play with him because he, like everyone else I play with, is one of my best friends. He gave the last DM crap in spite of the fact that we're all good friends, and now I guess he's just repeating the cycle.

Why do people think that being a good friend and a good D&D player are mutual? If he's a good DM, then maybe just have him DM games.

[Mclane]

I'm the DM. He's one of the players.

[noparlpf]

Why do people think that being a good friend and a good D&D player are mutual? If he's a good DM, then maybe just have him DM games.

The guy in question doesn't strike me as the "good DM" type.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm the DM. He's one of the players.

I know. But if he's a good DM, maybe just have him DM. It doesn't sound like he's that good a player.

[Firechanter]

Wrong. Technically everyone is. The guideline as outlined in DMG 199 is as follows.

Cool, thanks for the heads-up!

[Jude_H]

It's "definitely". And either "it is" or "it's", not "it's is".
I'll admit it: I preferred absentminded repetition to pedantic punctuation misuse.

[Acanous]

Masterwork Tools for each skill (I can think of):
Appraise: A Magnifying glass.
Bluff: A Shiny badge.
Balance: Balancing pole
Climb: Some equiptment already helps with this; Pytons, Rope, Hammer, pick... Perhaps a pair of climbing gloves, boot spikes, or a rope break.
Concentration: three glass or steel balls.
Craft: Actual tools related to the job.
Diplomacy: an olive branch
Decypher Script: Book on Cryptography.
Disable Device: Again, actual tools.
Forgery: Magnifying glass, stylus, ruler
Gather Information: Small notebook
Hide: Camo poncho
Intimidate: a string of humanoid ears
Jump: a pole.
Knowledge: Book related to knowledge skill chosen.
Speak Language: (If anyone is savvy enough to apply a tool to THIS, and the GM lets them, it would let them understand and speak two additional languages while carrying the item, so it practically has to be) A Rosetta Stone.
Tumble: a harness.
Use Magic Device: Copy of "Wizarding for Dummies".

[Firechanter]

Nice going!

Some more along those lines:

Move Silently: Sneakers
Swim: a floating device
Survival: a Rambo knife

[Vladislav]

#2, masterwork bonuses: there are "masterwork tools" that cost iirc 50GP and give +2 to a particular _skill_. Strictly by RAW, this can be _any_ skill, even one you can't think of what kind of tool could even exist for it, such as Concentration.Uhm, a tinfoil hat, of course.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nah, stress ball. Squeeze it to block out distractions.

[Malimar]

It's "definitely". And either "it is" or "it's", not "it's is".

I'll admit it: I preferred absentminded repetition to pedantic punctuation misuse.

This placement of full stops outside quotation marks is standard British usage; putting them inside the quotation marks is just a bizarre American quirk.

As for the comma: it's standard everywhere, so I don't know what your objection is.

[Ursus the Grim]

This placement of full stops outside quotation marks is standard British usage; putting them inside the quotation marks is just a bizarre American quirk.

Considering some two thirds of the world's English speakers speak American English, I don't think there's any need to be purist here.:smallconfused:

[Safety Sword]

Considering some two thirds of the world's English speakers speak American English, I don't think there's any need to be purist here.:smallconfused:

And we all have Microsoft to thank for that ridiculous scenario (if that's even in fact a true statement). :smallyuk:

By the way, there was a topic back there somewhere if anyone would care to scroll up.

[Ursus the Grim]

And we all have Microsoft to thank for that ridiculous scenario (if that's even in fact a true statement). :smallyuk:

By the way, there was a topic back there somewhere if anyone would care to scroll up.

I should clarify. As of '03 IIRC, 2/3 of the world's English speakers lived in the US. As reported by an English fellow by the name of David Crystal, with the Campridge University Press. And I think there are three statistics that are more important than Microsoft in that.

Australian Population: 22 million
UK Population: 62 million
US Population: 312 million

There is no "standard" English, no "bizarre quirks", and if there were, I daresay the standard is defined by the majority of its speakers and writers.

Back on topic, I suspect we won't hear much more until their next session when it gets sorted out, but it certainly sounds more like a case of "Friend who is actually always kind of a jerk, but its just more noticeable when we play a teamwork-based game."

[mootoall]

Going through the skill list:

Appraise: Abacus
Autohypnosis: Piece of crystal
Balance: Tightrope walker's pole
Bluff: Minor magical item that functions like the Doctor's Psychic Paper.
Climb: Those spikey things that climbers use.
Concentration: Again, a focusing crystal
Craft: Depends on which craft skill.
Diplomacy: Snappy outfit
Disable Device: Thieves' tools
Disguise: Disguise kit
Escape Artist: Miniature hidden wrist blade/picks.
Forgery: High quality inks/pens
Gather Information: City guidebook (tells you about popular inns, the "bad side of town," who to talk to for info, etc.)
Handle Animal: Treats!
Heal: Herb like Kingsfoil, alternatively the Healer's Kit found in the DMG
Hide: Pitch black/camoflauge cloak
Iajutsu Focus: Well greased scabbard
Intimidate: Scary mask
Jump: Spring-loaded boots?
Knowledge: Book
Listen: Ear horn
Move Silently: Padded shoes
Open Lock: Thieves' tools
Perform: Related to perform skill
Profession: Related to profession skill
Ride: Masterwork saddle
Search: Magnifying glass
Sense Motive: Lie detector? It'd be cumbersome, but it could work. Perhaps an instructional manual on common tells.
Sleight Of Hand: Adhesive for your hand? Literal sticky fingers
Speak Language: N/A
Spellcraft: Catalogue of known spells
Spot: Binoculars/telescope/eye glasses
Survival: Handbook on common plants, animals, etc.
Swim: Water wings!
Tumble: Okay, you got me
Use Magic Device: Same crystal you used for concentration and autohypnosis?
Use Rope: High strength/flexibility rope.

So it's *possible* to come up with one for all of them, though some are a stretch.

Edit: And all of them, of course, can be replaced by a book. The power of reading!

[Everest]

Gonna stop lurking for just a post or two and point out that I'm the former DM Mclane is referring to. As for the player, as Mclane said, he's here, but given the circumstances, I'm not gonna name names.


I know. But if he's a good DM, maybe just have him DM. It doesn't sound like he's that good a player.

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh no. He's way too biased to be a tolerable DM. One of the people who'll continually insist that melee characters are better, but has a grudge against ToB at the same time for attempting to fix melee. Also doesn't display a sufficient understanding of the concept of "compromise". Just yesterday I gave Mclane an in-depth answer to "Why does everyone hate monks?" and said friend's rebuttal was to use all of the reasons I listed for them sucking as qualities that actually made them good. I have yet to see the exact words, so I can't begin to find sense in it.

He's actually pretty cool outside of the game, aside from morals that are either played-up trolling or, for lack of a better word, wonky. But DMing for him was taxing enough; no way I'd play under him.

As for WBL distribution, I was never quite sure if 1/3 was a rule or just a commonly accepted rule, but I figured 1/2 or 1/4 was also pretty close.

[NNescio]

Sleight Of Hand: Adhesive for your hand? Literal sticky fingers

That would nuke the other uses for Sleight of Hand. I suggest nimble gloves or talcum powder.



Tumble: Okay, you got me
Tumbling vest.



Use Rope: High strength/flexibility rope.
Already present as Silk Rope.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you can use a single set of worry beads as a tool of LOTS of mental focus skills.

Concentration, Autohypnosis, Spellcraft, Psicraft, Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Search, etc.

And some really high quality shoes can be shoes of move silently / tumble.

[Ernir]

Wrong. Technically everyone is. The guideline as outlined in DMG 199 is as follows.


Its a very reasonable house-rule to make, but technically its a suggestion, not a rule. The DMG sums up the logic of it in the following text, but essentially it boils down to encouraging balanced characters rather than splurging on one incredibly powerful item.

In after swordsage.

The DMG contradicts itself on this point.


As a general rule, a new character can spend no more than half her total wealth on a single item, and no more than one quarter the total wealth on consumables such as ammunition, scrolls, potions, wands, or alchemical items.

Or that is, the "suggestion" you outlined says something different from this text, which claims to be a "general rule".

[mootoall]

That would nuke the other uses for Sleight of Hand. I suggest nimble gloves or talcum powder.


Good point. Your suggestions are good.



Tumbling vest.


Sounds good.



Already present as Silk Rope.

Really, *really* strong, flexible rope :smalltongue:

[Ursus the Grim]

The DMG contradicts itself on this point.



Or that is, the "suggestion" you outlined says something different from this text, which claims to be a "general rule".

Well, its not a contradiction if one is only a guideline.:smallbiggrin:

[Infernalbargain]

Speak Language: Dictionary.

[AMFV]

Speak Language: Dictionary.

But...but... you don't make speak language checks... one point is a language. So a +2 circumstance modifier does nothing as the ranks translate directly to languages known.

[Zaq]

But...but... you don't make speak language checks... one point is a language. So a +2 circumstance modifier does nothing as the ranks translate directly to languages known.

Exactly. And just having a dictionary doesn't actually mean that you can speak a language. See? It all works out.

[Laucorn]

Just do what my DM does when someone whines about how she's doing something. Look them square in the eye, and very seriously hey I am dm which means if I say so then 2+2=fish.

[Zaq]

Just do what my DM does when someone whines about how she's doing something. Look them square in the eye, and very seriously hey I am dm which means if I say so then 2+2=fish.

2 + 2 = fish
50 gp = +2
2 + (50 gp) = fish
50 gp = fish – 2
sickened = – 2
50 gp = fish + sickened
Sick fish are 50 gp

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

[Drelua]

2 + 2 = fish
50 gp = +2
2 + (50 gp) = fish
50 gp = fish – 2
sickened = – 2
50 gp = fish + sickened
Sick fish are 50 gp

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

SO THAT'S HOW ALGEBRA WORKS! :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'd say for survival a compass could work at least as well as a relevant book.

[Laucorn]

2 + 2 = fish
50 gp = +2
2 + (50 gp) = fish
50 gp = fish – 2
sickened = – 2
50 gp = fish + sickened
Sick fish are 50 gp

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

lol basically what she means is as dm she is god and if you don't like it tough those are the rules she set for the game.

[NNescio]

lol basically what she means is as dm she is god and if you don't like it tough those are the rules she set for the game.

Bear in mind:


Rule 00 - The GM is Always Right: No matter how eloquently the Rules Lawyer states his case for the loophole he's trying to abuse, the GM always has the last word.

Rule 000 - ...But No Players Means No Game: Having the last word doesn't mean the GM can lord it over the players like a tin-pot dictator. Like any other governing body, abuse of power will eventually lead to a coup d'état.

[AMFV]

My favorite was the one for UMD in a thread over at BG, ''Compilation of Lies to Tell Items". "Yeah, I'm totally a wizard, and my int is really 27..."

[Ernir]

Well, its not a contradiction if one is only a guideline.:smallbiggrin:
Which is what I was trying to say with that second sentence.

[Ormur]

As a DM I might call for masterwork skill tools making sense and point to the costs of existing such tools in splatbooks. I'm a bit skeptical of tools for skills like concentration and UMD. Tools might not always be practical in combat situations either. As an example the SBG has stats for books as kind of masterwork tools for the knowledge skills and they're pretty expensive and take time to use. Other skills tools taking the form of reference books might be subject to similar restrictions if it were up to me. Others might just accept it as a flat +2 to any skill once the players get enough money and forget about realism (which is admitedly very understandable when it comes to D&D).

[Fouredged Sword]

I like masterwork tools, but I have a standing rule that they must be defined, and the player must describe the use during the action they seek to get the bonus.

You want masterwork book that has knowledge of the planes in it, well you better tell me you pull it out and read it for references when you ask for that +2. Doggy treats grant +2 to handle animal, well you need to say you feed the dog.

It isn't enough to simply have a tool, but you need to actualy use it.

[Vladislav]

As a DM I might call for masterwork skill tools making sense and point to the costs of existing such tools in splatbooks. I'm a bit skeptical of tools for skills like concentration and UMD. Tools might not always be practical in combat situations either.
Once again melee gets the shaft. The fighter has great difficulties justifying his use of a masterwork climbing kit just to get the measly +2 bonus, while a Wizard just casts Spider Climb, Levitate, Fly, Dimension Door or whatnot, and he's up the cliff before the fighter and the DM are done arguing.


Others might just accept it as a flat +2 to any skill once the players get enough money and forget about realism (which is admitedly very understandable when it comes to D&D).Yes. Oh my god, yes. This. It's just a +2. To one skill. How much can one fret over a +2??

[Hanuman]

I'm the DM. He's one of the players.
"Rocks fall, you die." -Tomb of Horrors

If your players are rules lawyering OTHER PLAYERS with CHARACTER CREATION rules, whether they be variants or legit, then you need to srsly teach your players some respect.

Pre-roll characters for them to settle the dispute with violence, then write a list of obscure homebrew you "forgot" to mention which applies, and don't let them look until after. You're the DM, you wear the pants, they wear the dress of suggestion.

[Tyndmyr]

I have a question. The previous DM in my group told me, and my group, that we were not allowed to spend more than 1/3 of our new character's level based wealth on a single item. Is this an official rule, something he house ruled, or is it just an accepted rule? One of my players is giving me hell because "it doesn't make sense":smallannoyed: This is his main argument every time he complains about me or the previous DM's rules, even if it's in the actual books.

It's not in the actual books. There are optional guidelines for not spending more than HALF your money on an item if creating characters higher than first level. These are best ignored. It is not uncommon for players to have >half their wealth in a magic sword or the like.

It most certainly does not apply to wealth after character creation at any rate.


Also, he told me about a rule where you can just pay 100 gp and get a masterwork item that give you a plus two to any skill you choose at the moment of item creation. He swears in a very annoying and angry way that it came from an actual book. So, does anyone know what book it came from?

Go to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm), scroll down to masterwork tool. This is core.

What the real problem seems to be is the conflict between ya'll. Simply require, in a non confrontational way, some sort of justification for his demands. If he says something is a rule, have him bring you the rule, or at least, a book and page reference. If he says something doesn't make sense, have him explain WHY it doesn't make sense. If he cannot do so, clearly he hasn't thought it through.

You really don't want to resort to "I'm the GM, and it's that way because I SAY so". That'll just inflate the conflict. Having reasonable rules like "show me the rule, and we'll talk about it" for everyone is MUCH easier to justify, and other players are much more likely to back you on that.

[Vladislav]

I would say the "no more than x% of your wealth in one item" rule/guideline does make sense, because a character usually does not receive his WBL in one lump sum, but acquires it over years of adventuring. It is very unlikely he's been adventuring over 10 levels naked, or just with basic gear, saving up money for that one 36,000 gp item.

It's really up to the DM to decide whether he's using this guideline or not, and what the value of x should be. The players need to respect his judgment call.

[Tyndmyr]

I would say the "no more than x% of your wealth in one item" rule/guideline does make sense, because a character usually does not receive his WBL in one lump sum, but acquires it over years of adventuring. It is very unlikely he's been adventuring over 10 levels naked, or just with basic gear, saving up money for that one 36,000 gp item.

It's really up to the DM to decide whether he's using this guideline or not, and what the value of x should be. The players need to respect his judgment call.

Upgrading items is a legal thing. So, there's no particular reason why he didn't start out with a meh magical item that he kept pumping money into. It is a fairly common tactic for characters that are played from level one. Even without this, it's common for adventurers to go for a while without being able to buy loot, and so it's remarkably easy to end up with >half WBL in a single item in that way. Due to the exponential nature of wealth, you never need to spend 10 levels naked. It's more like "gee, I didn't buy anything for two or three levels and have a pile of gold now".

[Vladislav]

I'm sure some DMs subscribe to this logic, and it's not wrong per se, but bottom line, it falls withing the realm of an individual DM judgment call.

[Nagukuk]

I'm the DM. He's one of the players.

There is your answer to all of your problems. YOU are the DM, there does not have to be a rule in a book or on the internet or created magically out of the players what ever.

Tell him you are the DM and it IS "X" because you said so.

Then tell him to stop being an A$$. If you cant tell your friend he is, when he is, perhaps hes not such a good friend.

If he still has a problem show him the section in the Dungeon Master's Guide ... where it states the rules are guidelines and the DM is in charge blah blah.

If he still has a problem invite him to not play at the next session.

[Tyndmyr]

Tell him you are the DM and it IS "X" because you said so.

Then tell him to stop being an A$$.

This will almost certainly result in him saying that you're just as much of a whatever as you just called him. And it's not unreasonable.

No, no...just point out that there are a lot of books, and if he can't be bothered to look up the rule for something or know where it is, it's rather unfair for him to expect you to do it for him.



If he still has a problem show him the section in the Dungeon Master's Guide ... where it states the rules are guidelines and the DM is in charge blah blah.

Nobody quoting this rule ever mentions the long list of caveats against using this power to bully your players around, it seems. Those are right there in that section too, if you read all of it.

[BlueInc]

2 + 2 = fish
50 gp = +2
2 + (50 gp) = fish
50 gp = fish – 2
sickened = – 2
50 gp = fish + sickened
Sick fish are 50 gp

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

Zaq, I love you so much.

[Ursus the Grim]

This will almost certainly result in him saying that you're just as much of a whatever as you just called him. And it's not unreasonable.

No, no...just point out that there are a lot of books, and if he can't be bothered to look up the rule for something or know where it is, it's rather unfair for him to expect you to do it for him.



Nobody quoting this rule ever mentions the long list of caveats against using this power to bully your players around, it seems. Those are right there in that section too, if you read all of it.

Tyndmyr, there's so much I wanted to say to the mindset that you're arguing against, but you've already said the vast majority. It raelly annoys me that people are looking to "teach the players a lesson". DMs on a power trip, in my opinion, are the number one cause of group Drama. "Because I'm the DM and I said so" . . . if my DM broke the social contract and actual said those exact words, I would break the social contract too and punch him in the face.

There's ways to work with your players without being an arrogant prick, guys.