[3.5/PF] Tier 4 Fighter Fix?

[BlueInc]

One of the primary problems with the Fighter is that they have no unique class features: They get feats, but everyone gets feats; Fighters just get more of them. One of the problems with people trying to "fix" the Fighter is that people still want the "flexibility" of feats in character creation, even though those feats tend to define and restrict a character.

So how about this:


At level 1, and at levels indicated in Table: The Fighter, a Fighter gains a Martial bonus feat. This differs from regular feats in two ways: One, the feat must be a Combat feat; Two, whenever the Fighter rests for 8 hours, he may change any and all of his Martial bonus feats to any other feat he qualifies for.


At level 4, a Fighter adds his Fighter level to his Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma when determining what feats he can take, regular or Martial. He must still meet the other prerequisites for those feats.


At level 8, whenever a Fighter is preparing his Martial bonus feats, he is considered to be to have all Combat feats when meeting prerequisites for one of his Martial bonus feats; he does not gain the benefit of a feat unless he actually prepares it. He must qualify for his normal feats as usual.

An eighth-level Fighter adds his Fighter level to all his skill ranks when determining what prestige classes and feats he qualifies for.

In addition, an eighth-level Fighter can change his Martial bonus feats whenever he rests for one hour.


At level 10, a Fighter is considered to have all Combat feats when taking levels in a Prestige class. He does not gain the benefits of these feats unless he actually has them or prepares them.


At level 12, a Fighter can change his Martial feats after resting for 5 minutes.


At level 15, a Fighter can change out one Martial feat for another Martial feat as a swift action. He can do this a number of times a day equal to half his Fighter level.


At level 20, all of a Fighters feats gained from leveling can be changed after resting for five minutes.

Edit: Fixing things. Made a lot of changes!

[deuxhero]

How about this


*insert link to Warblade excerpt here*

[mootoall]

How about this


*insert link to Warblade excerpt here* (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

FTFY. :smallsmile:

[Lans]

How about this


*insert link to Warblade excerpt here*

Seems very overpowered Tier 4 Fighter Fix

[herrhauptmann]

One of the primary problems with the Fighter is that they have no unique class features: They get feats, but everyone gets feats; Fighters just get more of them. One of the problems with people trying to "fix" the Fighter is that people still want the "flexibility" of feats in character creation, even though those feats tend to define and restrict a character.

So how about this:

Rest for 24 hours? That's a full day off of adventuring.
How about an overnight rest? Or a 15minute exercise period?

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say with the level 8 and 10 rules.

[Seerow]

How about this


*insert link to Warblade excerpt here*


That's a tier 3, he asked for a tier 4 fix.


Anyway, on the actual fix, I'd move the "add level to attribute" lower, so the Fighter can actually qualify for things like GTWFing on time. I wouldn't make that come any later than level 4. 12 is way too late.

The level 20 ability actually makes the Fighter worse, by making it so his level based feats are now martial feats... sure he can change them now, but he is also completely unable to take non-combat feats. Some sort of clause should be added to allow those feats to be non-combat feats.

Consider making a couple of the high level bonus feats floating feats, that can be changed with a swift action. Doesn't need to be many, just one or two. But being able to adapt after combat started is a nice advantage.






Also, since you seem to want a fix that revolves around more flexible feats, I'd suggest a style system, like I used in my fighter fix (see sig). While I gave other features as well, to try to bring up to a tier 3, the fighter weapon styles are something that may interest you.

Basically, past a point (say level 8) every level that you would get a fighter bonus feat, you instead get 2 fighter bonus feats. These are each grouped together, so you effectively have two sets of bonus feats you can use. For example the Fighter might have one set of bonus feats that has the power attack/charging line of feats, and the second set of feats with stuff like elusive target, robilar's gambit, combat reflexes, etc. Or something as simple as one style for melee and one for range. Then the two styles may be switched between as a swift action. Basically the Fighter can branch out into two separate areas, without having access to everything at once. Not a huge power boost, but a nice flexibility boost and an interesting tactical decision for fighters to be able to make mid combat.

[Jopustopin]

Here is something I've been working on that is unfinished. The Brilliant Forums claim that this is Tier 4 so here it is:


I'm going to try to match the "fluff" of fighter from the PHB into a class that actually does what the fluff says.

Fluff:

Emphases mine. But please, read the PHB Fighter fluff to garner your own opinion.

Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. Better than the warblade, barbarian, psychic warrior, shapechanged druid, etc. When it comes to fighting, this class should be the best. Furthermore: In addition to general fighting prowess, each fighter develops particular specialties of his own.

Lastly: The fighter excels in a straight fight, but he relies on others for magical support, healing, and scouting. On a team, it is HIS JOB TO MAN THE FRONT LINES, PROTECT OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, AND BRING THE TOUGH OPPONENTS DOWN.

[hr]
Skills:

4 + Int mod. per level (x4 at 1st).
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str)
Knowledge History (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Balance (Dex), Tumble (Dex)

Fighters should have the skills to help them be good at fighting. Battlefield mobility, resistance to being feinted in combat, never caught in a battle with his pants down, a well honed ability to know the most about combat maneuvers. Stuff that we would expect the ultimate fighting class to be good at.

[hr]

Class Features

Level 1: Weapon Aptitude, Basic Training
Level 2: Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat
Level 3: Heroic Reflexes
Level 4: Weapon Specialization, Bonus Feat
Level 5: Whatever it Takes

Level 6: Combat Training
Level 7: Improved Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 8: Heroic Fortitude
Level 9: Improved Critical, Bonus Feat
Level 10: Know the Battlefield

Level 11: Advanced Training
Level 12: Supreme Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 13: Heroic Willpower
Level 14: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
Level 15: Own the Battlefield

Level 16: Fighting Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 17: Weapon Aptitude Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 18: Legendary Heroics, Bonus Feat
Level 19: Weapon Supremecy, Bonus Feat
Level 20: Supreme Fighter , Bonus feat


What do those cool words mean?

Weapon and Armor Aptitude At 1st level a fighter can spend 1 hour in weapon, armor, or shield practice to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon, armor, or shield. You must have the newly designated weapon, armor, or shield available during your practice session to make this change.
At 7th level a fighter need only spend a full round action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 12th level a fighter need only spend a move action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 17th level any feat that applies only to a single weapon now applies to any weapon the fighter is currently making an attack with. In effect the feat's weapon designation switches automatically whenever the fighter makes an attack. Furthermore any feat that applies only to a single type of armor or shield now applies to any armor or shield the fighter is currently gaining an armor bonus from.

Heroic Reflexes: As an immediate action after failing a reflex save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a reflex save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Fortitude: As an immediate action after failing a fortitude save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a fortitude save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Willpower: As an immediate action after failing a will save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a will save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Basic Training: A fighter spends years training in all forms of combat. One never knows what weapons will end up in your hands. Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. By the time a fighter has finished his training he knows the basics of several different fighting styles. At 1st level a fighter gains the following feats: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Combat Training: A fighter spends most of his free time in between adventurers practicing more advanced maneuvers. By the time a fighter has reached 6th level he has improved his all-around fighting capabilities in addition to his area of expertise. A fighter gains the following feats:
Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Defense, Shield Ward, Precise Shot, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Blind-Fight. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Advanced Training: A fighter that advances to 11th level finds that he is still the best all around at fighting. A fighter gains the following feats: Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Snap Kick. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Fighting Mastery: A fighter of 16th level would be considered a master at any style of fighting that he picks up. He is never without weapon, and in a straight battle, is without equal. A fighter gains the following feats: Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Flying Kick, Manyshot, Improved Overrun, Heavy Armor Optimization, and Toughness. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Whatever it takes
Sometimes a fighter is being swallowed whole, other times he's being grappled by a Roper, whatever the case may be don't count the fighter out just yet. The battle is not over until the waste of space stops screaming. A fighter of 5th level gains the feat Improved Grapple if he did not already have this feat. He gains the use of three tactical maneuvers.
I'm still fighting here: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently exist inside of a creature that has swallowed him whole. He is not restricted to using light piercing or slashing weapons in order to escape but still cannot use bludgeoning weapons. Furthermore the damage done to the creature's gizzard counts against the creature's total hit points. Most creatures do not try to swallow a fighter whole twice.
Stunning Escape!: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently be grappling or pinned by an opponent. By winning an opposed grapple check a fighter may deliver a stunning unarmed strike at a -4 penalty to the grappling creatures head (-8 if the Fighter is pinned). This attack is made with a head-butt, elbow, or any other available body part. A creature who takes damage from this attack must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter Class Level + Str Modifier) or be stunned until the beginning of its next turn. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Charging Spree In order to use this maneuver a fighter must have charged an opponent and missed. If he wishes he can attempt to start a grapple as a free action.

Know the Battlefield (Ex):
A fighter is the best at fighting. He knows everything that is going on and can anticipate his opponent with uncanny prediction. It's not that the fighter is smarter or wiser than his opponents. It's that fighting is all he cares about. A fighter eats, sleeps, and dreams about kicking the snot out of hill giants. About fighting his way out of ambushes. Once initiative has been rolled the random hillside or the city street turns into the battlefield. A fighter knows the battlefield like a wizard knows her spellbook. At 10th level a fighter gains several advantages when fighting on his home turf (which is wherever he's fighting).
The fighter gains the following abilities:
No Place Like Home: A fighter cannot be an unaware combatant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm). He rolls initiative whenever anyone else does (but only once per battle obviously).
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Furthermore his knowledge of the battlefield borders on the supernatural. He has seen so much fighting that he knows exactly what his opponents are up to and can react appropriately. A fighter gains Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Too Predictable:Also, any time a creature makes an attack that the fighter can see or feel the fighter can make a sense motive check opposed by the creatures bluff check. If the fighter wins he gains blindsight 120 ft. against ONLY that creature until the end of the fighters next turn.
Know the Pieces: He can tell just by the way his allies move how many hit points they are at. Against any creature that he successfully identified with the appropriate knowledge check, the fighter may take a move action to determine how many hit points the creature has. It is not metagaming to keep track of damage that the players have done to know how close to victory you are.

Own the Battlefield
It's not enough to know the battlefield. Any true fighter struts around the place like he's been living there for the last 15 levels. Oh yeah, that's right. He has. When initiative has been rolled, the fighter welcomes everyone to his home. And as long as your living here, under his roof, you play by his rules.
First and Foremost: After all other effects have been calculated the Fighter goes first in combat. If there are two or more fighters with this ability they will roll separate initiative to see which of them goes first.
Supreme Blade Parry: The fighter was the first to develop this stance later stolen by the Iron Heart discipline. While you are in this stance you gain damage reduction 5/- .
Bring the Fight Home: A fighter can start a grapple any time that he successfully makes a melee attack. If his weapon has reach, then the fighter uses the weapon itself to begin the grapple, and moves with arms reach of his opponent on a successful grapple check.
Disrupting Flow: A fighter can make an attack of opportunity against opponents who let there guard down, even for a split second. Swift Actions and Immediate Actions provoke attacks of opportunity if they are spells or spell-like abilities and may be disrupted as normal. Five foot steps provoke attacks of opportunity.



This is the direction I would go when rebuilding a fighter class. I personally do not know enough about high levels to give the fighter abilities that address the weaknesses at these levels.

[Seerow]

Rest for 24 hours? That's a full day off of adventuring.
How about an overnight rest? Or a 15minute exercise period?

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say with the level 8 and 10 rules.

They seem to basically be saying "Since the Fighter can change his feats on a whim, when determining what he has for qualifying for feats or prestige classes, treat him as having everything."

So basically if a prestige class requires a combat feat, the Fighter isn't actually required to have that feat eating up a feat slot to qualify for the class. If he wants a prerequisite heavy feat like whirlwind attack, he can take it without all the BS prerequisites, because he's treated as having all the other prerequisites even if he can't use them.

He only has to have the feats prepared that he actually wants. Which is actually a pretty nice advantage. Given full access to all splat books, I'd say that this would land at a solid tier 4 without a whole lot of further tweaking.

[herrhauptmann]

He only has to have the feats prepared that he actually wants. Which is actually a pretty nice advantage. Given full access to all splat books, I'd say that this would land at a solid tier 4 without a whole lot of further tweaking.
Hmmm, be great if that worked for skill prereqs too.
Anyway, getting Pierce Magic Concealment without having to take blindfight is great (BF is still useful, but don't want to delay PMC). Mageslayer is still nice enough that you'll want it, even though it is a prereq.

[Blisstake]

He only has to have the feats prepared that he actually wants. Which is actually a pretty nice advantage. Given full access to all splat books, I'd say that this would land at a solid tier 4 without a whole lot of further tweaking.

Hmm, what would you say it is if there's no access to splatbooks?

[Seerow]

Hmm, what would you say it is if there's no access to splatbooks?

No splat books? Back to tier 5. And bottom of the barrel for it. There's simply not enough feats to support a even a normal fighter in core. All this extra flexibility? Basically a waste of time.

[AerykVyrion]

A fighter spends most of his free time in between adventurers practicing more advanced maneuvers.

I'm assuming this is a typo. Either way, it's hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm assuming this is a typo. Either way, it's hilarious. :smallbiggrin:
"Aw, come on! Why do the warblade, totemist, and even the barbarian get better moves than me?"

Seems very overpowered Tier 4 Fighter Fix

I was going to respond until I saw the white text.

[Piggy Knowles]

When I was putting together notes for a campaign that never ended up happening, I was planning on using this house-ruled fighter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6373.msg210338#msg210338) that PhaedrusXY proposed. (Some minor changes here and there, but the big one is that basically, at level 12+, it can also start taking epic feats.)

I was also planning on adding a level-based check that basically functioned as UMD, but only for weapons and armor, which would also allow fighters to craft their own items. (Think Imbue Item, but with a fighter-specific check instead, and only applying to weapons and armor.) The idea was that a fighter should be a master of weapons, able to figure them out, activate them, and eventually even craft them. It always bothered me that a wizard who had never touched a sword before was consistently a better weaponsmith than any martial class, even if they tried to specialize in it...

[Lans]

The Fighter is already close to being Tier 4, why not give free thug variant, dungeon crasher, and the PHB2 and Complete Champion ACFs? Should push it over.

[BlueInc]

I'll try to explain the concept of the fix a little more: I was reading the Magic of Incarnum classes (who can reshape their melds on a daily basis), the Chameleon (who can change his fighting style on a daily basis), the Switch-Hitter build for the Pathfinder ranger (who can mix it up at range or in melee), and the Warblade ability Weapon Aptitude (which allows him to "respec" his Weapon Focus-esque feats), and thought, "Why can't a Fighter do that?"

The Fighter is supposed to be the definitive martial character - someone who can pick up any set of weapons or armor and use them with ease. The actual system at first glance seams to do this ("You've got so many feats! You can do anything!") but falls flat on its face when applied ("You need so many feats to do ONE thing correctly.") Feats are a limited resource, even to the Fighter. You can never have all the feats, like a Wizard can get all his spells or a Cleric/Druid can choose from all his spells on a daily basis.

Before I go any further, let me be clear: I love Tome of Battle, but not everyone uses or wants to use it. I wanted to make a character who could be the Fighter without just slapping on a martial maneuver progression. Because, despite refluffing, a Fighter is still (in many people's minds) a full BAB class with lots of "flexibility" from his feats; I wanted to take that concept and make it a playable reality.

This Fighter can be an archer one day, sword and board the next, a THW charger after that, a cavalry leader for a while, a spiked whip tripper for a day, and when he gets thrown in prison and all his gear stripped? Tomorrow he wakes up with IUS and becomes a mini-Monk for a day. Heck, in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/exotic-weapon-proficiency-combat---final) he essentially has proficiency with any exotic weapon he chooses. Any one of these options is suboptimal for a 1-20 character, but someone who can do any of these any given day is more useful.

I feel like this Fighter could even have a (subtle) reason why he might be used over a Warblade when the ToB is available: The Warblade is kind of like an arcane caster. He chooses what maneuvers he knows and prepares some of them. This Fighter, if allowed ToB, could choose any mix of maneuvers and stances every day, more like a divine caster. Maybe he could get full or 3/4 initiator level for his Fighter level at some point?

A lot of people had good input (and caught a lot of my mistakes... why would a Fighter have to rest for 24 hours?). Thanks for the feedback!