At what tier would you place a spontaneous Druid?

[Talya]

Okay...we all know that Spontaneous Spellcasting is inferior to prepared, although spontaneous casters can still break a game, even with only half as many different ways. Tier 1 vs. Tier 2, yada yada yada.

With the druid, would it really drop them to Tier 2? Would their Animal Companion and more importantly Wildshape class features provide enough versatility to keep them at the low end of Tier 1?

[Tvtyrant]

I would argue that they drop to low tier 1, since they don't lose their other two class features.

[Sucrose]

The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2, to my understanding, is a qualitative one.

Tier 2 can break the game, sometimes in many ways.

Tier 1 can break the game in all the ways that the class is capable (and there needs to be a variety of ways that the class can break said game), using the same build. Often in the same day.

Thus, until you get to the point of giving a Sorcerer or Druid enough spells known to pick up every single gamebreaker spell, it would remain in Tier 2. A flexible Tier 2, perhaps, but still a Tier 2.

[mootoall]

They can still do everyone else's job better than they can, so ... yeah, they're still low T1.

[Alleran]

I'd say low T1. Even borderline T1/T2, but still edging over into T1.

[DeAnno]

Very High T2, probably beyond the Sorcerer even, but T2 none the less. T1s have the hallmark of versatility: they can largely remodel themselves in a day. A T2 can be powerful in such a variety of situations that they can easily play alongside T1s, but if faced with a challenge they can't deal with, they can't easily change their bag of tricks.

The only T1-like quality a Spontaneous Druid has is Wild Shape, and that still isn't quite versatile enough. This isn't to say a Spontaneous Druid can't ever be more suited for a particular build than a normal one, but by the tier definition system it's T2.

[Ernir]

My first instinct was "limited spells known, so Tier 2", but then I thought...

How many ways are there to break a Druid's spellcasting, really? It obviously has its crazy points (Shapechange, I am looking at you!), but wouldn't it be possible to get all or most of them on a single character even with the limit on the number of spells known?

[Zaq]

My first instinct was "limited spells known, so Tier 2", but then I thought...

How many ways are there to break a Druid's spellcasting, really? It obviously has its crazy points (Shapechange, I am looking at you!), but wouldn't it be possible to get all or most of them on a single character even with the limit on the number of spells known?

Having played a high-level Spirit Shaman, I can tell you that the Druid list is far more vast than a lot of people realize. Without DMM on the table, I'd honestly place it above the Cleric list. There's a lot of niche spells, a lot of overlooked-but-awesome spells, and a lot of spells that you already know and love. It's the same story as the Sorcerer . . . yeah, you can fill an entire spells known list with awesome stuff, and I guess you'd eventually reach a point where you have enough spells known if you just kept increasing the number, but there's enough good stuff out there that it would take you a LONG time.

[Elboxo]

Tier two, but it really depends on the player, optimization and/or powergaming will make him a tier one, but if he's not the power-gamer type, expect T2

[2xMachina]

Heh. If spontaneous Druid is Tier 2, what is spontaneous Wizard?

Tier 0

[deuxhero]

Spirit Shaman, a spontaneous Druid, is a low tier 1 due to the funky way his spontaneous works (he can change his spells every day).

[Silva Stormrage]

Heh. If spontaneous Druid is Tier 2, what is spontaneous Wizard?

Tier 0

A sorcerer?

[TheJake]

Tier 2 - no question. Although wild shape bumps it to the top of tier 2.

- J.

[grarrrg]

Planar Shepard is still an option.
Tier 1.
[/thread]

[Sucrose]

Planar Shepard is still an option.
Tier 1.
[/thread]

Planar Shepherd allows absurd things, but is still not able to allow it access to every way that Druids have to solve problems. Tier 2.

[Talya]

Planar Shepherd allows absurd things, but is still not able to allow it access to every way that Druids have to solve problems. Tier 2.

That's not really the requirement of a tier 1 on JaronK's list.


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

The more I think about this, the more I've decided it's still tier 1.

A spontaneous druid is still capable of doing absolutely everything, often better (always better?) than classes that specialize in that thing. Wildshape is a single mechanical ability that can solve most encounters on its own with little thought from the player, and their spellcasting is STILL more powerful than that.

Compare:


Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job.

A spontaneous druid gains enough from Wildshape and their animal companion that they are no longer predictable. Do they still always have the right tool for the job? I mean, Summon Nature's Ally IV alone gives them access to a level 8, level 6, and several lower level druid spells all by one creature (the Oread). I don't think a spontaneous druid would lack for tricks. They can still do every job and usually better than any other class. They do not need to specialize.

[Thespianus]

With "Spontaneous Druid", you mean a homebrewed Druid that has the Sorcerers spell progression?

Or is there an actual "Spontaneous Druid" ACF out there?

EDIT: Duh, check SRD first...*sigh*

You mean this Spontaneous Druid? :)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

[2xMachina]

If it were me... Versatile Spellcaster on Druid. Tada! Tier 0 Spontaneous Druid.

[Talya]

If it were me... Versatile Spellcaster on Druid. Tada! Tier 0 Spontaneous Druid.

Okay, perhaps my point was entirely missed. :smalltongue:

I'm not interested in further breaking the druid. I'm just thinking about the spontaneous divine caster variant in UA and where it puts the existing druid on the tier list.

[Devmaar]

I'd say it's still T1, but obviously lower within the tier

[Greenish]

Spirit Shaman, a spontaneous Druid, is a low tier 1 due to the funky way his spontaneous works (he can change his spells every day).I've seen arguments for Spirit Shamans being tier 1, tier 2 and even tier 3. :smalltongue:

[flumphy]

Unless your DM has banned all of tier 1 specifically, does its exact placement really matter? We know it's less powerful than a standard druid but still more powerful than the tier 2s that get few decent class features to speak of. A more precise placement doesn't serve much of a practical purpose.

If your DM has banned tier 1, just slap on the shapeshift variant to be safe and call it a day.

[Jude_H]

I don't see how a Druid with Wild Shape has a meaningful advantage over a Sorcerer with Polymorph - the duration may save the Druid an action, but the Sorcerer has more support for action economy abuse (Celerity, Contingency, Fusions, Spellsurge, etc.).

Regarding the Animal Companion, same deal, but with the Planar Binding line.

I'm not saying the Sorcerer has a clear trump on the spont. druid, but I think it's hazy enough to call them equivalent in terms of versatility and potential.

edit:
It may depend on Sorcerer build; it's certainly easier to blunder into a limited Sorcerer spell list than it is to blunder into a limited Druid spell list and lose the AC/Wild Shape along the way; I don't think players who would make those mistakes would be worrying about things like tiers, though.

[Greenish]

If your DM has banned tier 1, just slap on the shapeshift variant to be safe and call it a day.Shapeshift druid is still tier 1.

[flumphy]

Shapeshift druid is still tier 1.

I completely agree. What I meant was that a spontaneous shapeshift druid was safely in tier 2.

[Tvtyrant]

Shapeshift druid is still tier 1.

Now with the spontaneous casting it isn't, which I believe was the posters point. Together they make it tier 2, which means it would no longer be banned but would be very similar to the original Druid.

Edit: I apparently could have waited two seconds for flumphy to answer.

[Greenish]

I completely agree. What I meant was that a spontaneous shapeshift druid was safely in tier 2.Oh, yeah. I somehow completely missed the context, probably so I could point out someone being wrong. :smallredface: