Eberron 3.5 - Help defeating Levistus [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-21, 03:54 AM

I'm a player in a 3.5 game of Eberron. The DM recently decided the party would be facing off against a free Levistus next session - in a couple of weeks or so.

Sadly, we'll be a man down as our Barbarian is going on holiday for quite some time, leaving the rest of the party to face off against him - possibly with another Mary Sue DMPC like a warforged Liberty Prime, Optimus Prime, or perhaps a Goku rip off. (Or even, god forbid the Blaziken Monk - who is so "awesome and funny!")

So, the three characters, my unoptimized duskblade, an unoptimized healbot cleric and a useless druid with a dinosaur from the Talenta planes. (She mucks around in combat, even going so far as to drop her weapon and just leave once)

Having once seen Levistus, (I remember he has SR out the rear, ac of ~40 and a few abilities) I'm worried our three man band of level 20 characters might be in for a rough time.

To the point now, any hints or tips would be greatly appreciated. My goal is simply to survive, but the DM tries to force us to act like superheroes from saturday morning cartoons - infact, the whoe story seems to be one cartoon after another, all merged together.
Anyways, are there any hints, tricks, tips etc. anyone would be willing to share regarding trying to murder Levistus before he either causes a TPK or a Mary Sue steps in and rubs our collective faces in it? The goal is obviously to come out alive and as unscathed as possible.

Thanks a lot to anyone who replies.
:smallsmile:

-Oh, and my guess is, trying to get anyone other than a Mary Sue involved will result in the stock response. "We'll hang back while you guys do it."

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-21, 04:44 AM

Offer your services to the newly-freed Devil Prince? Perhaps slap your DM with a herring while you're at it. This sounds like a horrendous game.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-21, 05:01 AM

Offer your services to the newly-freed Devil Prince? Perhaps slap your DM with a herring while you're at it. This sounds like a horrendous game.

Sadly, that won't fly with him.
We are the good guys in his story, therefore we MUST save the day.

Also, he'd just kill us. After monologuing and acting like an arrogant sod....in fact, ALL his npcs are like that. He actively stopped a well thought out ambush once to have some...erm...lets say, jerkwad, continue a speech. Even though the Barbarian stated he didn't care what the blighter was saying and was going to tear him in two. And it was completely irrelivant.

"Blah blah blah, right into my trap, blah blah, ULTIMATE POWER! Blah blah, NONE SHALL STOP THE BLOOD OF VOL blah blah blaaaaah."

Everything in his games always comes down do "just as planned!"

Worst part is, he thinks his game is serious. All warforged talk like robots, druids are all spacey...oh, the stories I could tell.

Looked up Levistus to peek at his CR.
25. Crap.
:eek:

Actually, no. The worst part is, he is convinced it's pure gold.
Le sigh.

I'm currently pouring through lists of magic items. There must be SOMETHING that can stop Levistus in his tracks.

Runestar

2011-09-21, 05:24 AM

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-21, 05:35 AM

AzraeltheFalle

2011-09-21, 07:15 AM

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-21, 07:37 AM

Okay. Psychic Reformation.
Spell Penetration+Greater that gives a lvl 20 Duskblade +29 on the spell resistance roll.
Now hit him with a couple of Enervate's and a couple of or other touch spells.

You could try and Debuff him so much that he could be taken out by the Cleric.

The Cleric should use Assay spell resistance(SC) to get +30 to his spell resistance roll.

Have him prepare Soul Bind to prevent Levistus from being resurrectet. Though he should probably prepare action to cast it the moment Levistus dies.

Another option could be to be reformed into a lockdown build. His touch is rather low and he is only medium...

I do like the Eneverate idea. I know I can break his AC at level 20, I can get the Cleric to ensure he can't parry it right back at me. Channel it and go to town..

My biggest worry right now is that I'm going to be the only one slugging it out with him. The Cleric will be healing - and I know I'll need that. The druid....won't do much, lazy bugger.

Thanks to everyone for suggestions so far, please do keep them coming.
Also, any suggestions as to how to avoid his Amnesia Touch and Spell-like abilities would be appreciated - preferably without messing up my channeling and spellcasting.

I wonder what the odds are, given that there are three party members - one of which probably won't assist in the fight...

AzraeltheFalle

2011-09-21, 07:47 AM

My suggestion would be to ensure that he can't hit you. So get an item giving you enlarge person. A slot-less one should cost 3750. Get one for both of you. Then convince the Druid to cast Entangle so that he can't 5'foot step towards you. And get him stunned or other action loosing abilities. And a reach weapon might be useful. Oh and prepare plenty of Heal and Greater restoration to counter that annoying touch...

Edit:
The Barbarian Enlarged with a spiked chain and Mage Slayer(CA) could have been gold though...

Mr.Smashy

2011-09-21, 08:09 AM

I do like the Eneverate idea. I know I can break his AC at level 20, I can get the Cleric to ensure he can't parry it right back at me. Channel it and go to town..

My biggest worry right now is that I'm going to be the only one slugging it out with him. The Cleric will be healing - and I know I'll need that. The druid....won't do much, lazy bugger.

Thanks to everyone for suggestions so far, please do keep them coming.
Also, any suggestions as to how to avoid his Amnesia Touch and Spell-like abilities would be appreciated - preferably without messing up my channeling and spellcasting.

I wonder what the odds are, given that there are three party members - one of which probably won't assist in the fight...

WTH? Who does this? Warforged talking like robots? Burntout Hippie Druids? This "Campaign".... I think I would rather gouge my eyes out with a dull rock. And it really sounds like a 2 person party going against an Arch-Devil. Talk to your druid buddy offline. You might need his help.

Telonius

2011-09-21, 09:03 AM

Lots of immunities, but I'm not seeing "Sonic" or "Electricity" on there anywhere. Spell Parry is going to be annoying, too. Teleport Without Error at will, so something as easy as Forcecage isn't going to hold him.

I'm seeing that "Touch 25" as an opportunity. I would say Orbs should be able to get him, but it's unfortunately not likely you have any capability of getting those. As a Duskblade, you have access to Ray of Enfeeblement, which will help a bit. So will Seeking Ray. If there's any chance at all that you can get some item of Assay Spell Resistance (from Spell Compendium; Rules Compendium says a scroll should take a swift action to cast it) this could really help you to overcome his SR 37.

The Druid is going to have to pull his weight in this fight. Levistus has no special protection against electricity, and Druids get a lot of love in that regard from the Spell Compendium. As a Duskblade, your options are pretty limited. Arc of Lightning is a decent one. (EDIT: for the Druid that is). His reflex is only +26, though he does have Evasion.

A simple Tanglefoot Bag might be helpful in this situation.

2xMachina

2011-09-21, 09:13 AM

Bad precedence... but... Dust of Sneezing and Choking

No save, just stun 5d4 rounds.

Hazzardevil

2011-09-21, 12:17 PM

Personally? I think you should show the druid what he's up against.
From the sounds of the DM you are going to be unable to fight him while he is in the ice.

Get the angels involved, they will be happy to help fight an archdevil of hell.
Dragons should be happy to help as well, they are very anti-fiend in this setting and will make a huge difference.

Also get yourself at least a +4 holy or blessed weapon, otherwise he heals any damage you deal instantly.

So you will need an epic weapon just to injure him.

As in +4 on attack and damage rolls.

Normally I would never suggest this, but use the players handbook 2 retraining rules to get the Druid to have Planar Shepherd, that way he can wildshape into a Solar and start Chain-gating them in.

The Glyphstone

2011-09-21, 12:54 PM

Dig up the rails and use them as weapons. It sounds like nothing you can do will matter except wait for the DMPC to save you, so don't try to win, just goof off. Pledge your loyalty and eternal servitude to Levistus, have a bag of babies that you start sacrificing in front of him in the middle of his speech to prove your devotion, use Disguise Self to put on a cheerleader outfit with pom-poms and start cheering Levistus in the middle of his speech, whatever. If you're killed, insist that your 'unfinished business' of serving Levistus loyally lets you come back as a ghost.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-21, 02:31 PM

Have your characters go home and let the Mary Sue deal with it. That way, when the time comes, you can all state your action, leave, and let the DM play all by himself. It doesn't matter if he says your characters are all booed and jeered for leaving, or decide to come back and die in the fight, and the victorious DMPC is loved and respected by everyone, he's the only one playing the game now.

Just remember the words said by the wisest of trope pages.

Rule 000 - ...But No Players Means No Game: Having the last word doesn't mean the GM can lord it over the players like a tin-pot dictator. Like any other governing body, abuse of power will eventually lead to a coup d'état.

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-21, 03:00 PM

*Pure, unfiltered genius*

Let us join together, Playground, and expand on this genius idea.

- Hirelings costs are listed in the AEG, page 61. According to that table, you can buy an entertainers services for 4sp/day. Hire a thousand. No, two thousand entertainers to do a choreographed dance number pledging your undying loyalty.

- Have plenty of towels on hand, and a huge vat of hot cocoa. Your new ruler is bound to be a bit chilly after spending so long in the ice.

- Summon an Angel, and kill it in front of him. Then, do the same thing with a Demon. Summon a Devil, and offer it a fresh, innocent child. (From out of the child-bag mentioned earlier.)

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-21, 04:39 PM

Once again, thanks to everyone for their input.
I must say, I do love everything posted so far.

Dig up the rails and use them as weapons. It sounds like nothing you can do will matter except wait for the DMPC to save you, so don't try to win, just goof off. Pledge your loyalty and eternal servitude to Levistus, have a bag of babies that you start sacrificing in front of him in the middle of his speech to prove your devotion, use Disguise Self to put on a cheerleader outfit with pom-poms and start cheering Levistus in the middle of his speech, whatever. If you're killed, insist that your 'unfinished business' of serving Levistus loyally lets you come back as a ghost.

I think my DM would have a fit....I honestly have no idea how he'd react....at all...which is saying something as I've known him for years and he is extremely predicatble.
(Ie. If there was a "cool" show/game/book/comic, you know that he'll use the "cool" part in his next game. Or the game after)

Bad precedence... but... Dust of Sneezing and Choking

No save, just stun 5d4 rounds.

I've decided I'm gonna ask around Sharn about cursed items, offering to buy certain ones. The DM will probably let me if I makes up some BS about it.
He'd probably be rendered speechless if I used that dust. Worth a shot.

Personally? I think you should show the druid what he's up against.
From the sounds of the DM you are going to be unable to fight him while he is in the ice.

Get the angels involved, they will be happy to help fight an archdevil of hell.
Dragons should be happy to help as well, they are very anti-fiend in this setting and will make a huge difference.

Also get yourself at least a +4 holy or blessed weapon, otherwise he heals any damage you deal instantly.

So you will need an epic weapon just to injure him.

As in +4 on attack and damage rolls.

Normally I would never suggest this, but use the players handbook 2 retraining rules to get the Druid to have Planar Shepherd, that way he can wildshape into a Solar and start Chain-gating them in.

I've talked to the druid, who still shows no desire to do anything remotely useful.
Got him to look at Levistus.
The reply: "Oh...I'm sure you can take him. You're a swordsman after all."
Probably just gonna coo over the dinosaur.

Retraining is a no no sadly. To top it off, I once showed him the Planar Shepherd when we were player in another Eberron game together. I wanted to play one. So, he knows and won't allow it.

I've got a good weapon on hand. I'm the only one in the party. So, no problems in that department.

Angels won't care. Nor will the dragons.....or the Undying Court...or anyone with the power to assist. Or, they will, but they'll say: "We'll leave it to you, you guys are heroes after all!" or some variation thereof.
I suppose, I could be wrong and he will let them assist....but then, I know what will happen. He'll have a cutscene battle taking place - not actually doing anything.

Oh - this guy LOVES cutcenes. Allowing bad guys to escape, while avoiding all AoOs, (The guy bends the rules with the retreat action) or to steal something we need, even killing someone with the information we need. We basically sit around and wait for the next convulted cluster eff of a plot hook....so, giving the guy a war would probably have him go on, explaining (badly, might I add) the battle.

I'm tempted to explain how he tried to force his own spin on our character's backrounds....but that's not related.

Lots of immunities, but I'm not seeing "Sonic" or "Electricity" on there anywhere. Spell Parry is going to be annoying, too. Teleport Without Error at will, so something as easy as Forcecage isn't going to hold him.

I'm seeing that "Touch 25" as an opportunity. I would say Orbs should be able to get him, but it's unfortunately not likely you have any capability of getting those. As a Duskblade, you have access to Ray of Enfeeblement, which will help a bit. So will Seeking Ray. If there's any chance at all that you can get some item of Assay Spell Resistance (from Spell Compendium; Rules Compendium says a scroll should take a swift action to cast it) this could really help you to overcome his SR 37.

The Druid is going to have to pull his weight in this fight. Levistus has no special protection against electricity, and Druids get a lot of love in that regard from the Spell Compendium. As a Duskblade, your options are pretty limited. Arc of Lightning is a decent one. (EDIT: for the Druid that is). His reflex is only +26, though he does have Evasion.

A simple Tanglefoot Bag might be helpful in this situation.

I'll try again with the Druid. I'll keep the tanglefoot idea in mind. Hit him with one after the dust perhaps...should the druid refuse to help. I suppose I could hit them both....and then when it wears off Levistus decides the druid ends up first on his to kill list.
Should he refuse, I've also got shocking grasp. Suppose it counts for something.

Have your characters go home and let the Mary Sue deal with it. That way, when the time comes, you can all state your action, leave, and let the DM play all by himself. It doesn't matter if he says your characters are all booed and jeered for leaving, or decide to come back and die in the fight, and the victorious DMPC is loved and respected by everyone, he's the only one playing the game now.

Just remember the words said by the wisest of trope pages.

The Barbarian has wanted out for a while, due to the insanity of this campaign. He's looking forward to his trip to Aussie and in his own words, "Getting out of this pathetic excuse for a campaign." I wonder if his beloved DMPC would fall in combat just to spite us.....naaah, probably not......though still an extremely remote possibility....

My suggestion would be to ensure that he can't hit you. So get an item giving you enlarge person. A slot-less one should cost 3750. Get one for both of you. Then convince the Druid to cast Entangle so that he can't 5'foot step towards you. And get him stunned or other action loosing abilities. And a reach weapon might be useful. Oh and prepare plenty of Heal and Greater restoration to counter that annoying touch...

Edit:
The Barbarian Enlarged with a spiked chain and Mage Slayer(CA) could have been gold though...

Yeah, the Barbarian as it turns out, did have the mage slayer feat. It's a shame he won't be around...I'll have the Cleric stock up on Heal and Greater restoration. I'll also get an enchanted reach weapon.

WTH? Who does this? Warforged talking like robots? Burntout Hippie Druids? This "Campaign".... I think I would rather gouge my eyes out with a dull rock. And it really sounds like a 2 person party going against an Arch-Devil. Talk to your druid buddy offline. You might need his help.

You're not alone good sir, you are not alone.
Probably WILL be a two man party, cursed Druid....

Let us join together, Playground, and expand on this genius idea.

- Hirelings costs are listed in the AEG, page 61. According to that table, you can buy an entertainers services for 4sp/day. Hire a thousand. No, two thousand entertainers to do a choreographed dance number pledging your undying loyalty.

- Have plenty of towels on hand, and a huge vat of hot cocoa. Your new ruler is bound to be a bit chilly after spending so long in the ice.

- Summon an Angel, and kill it in front of him. Then, do the same thing with a Demon. Summon a Devil, and offer it a fresh, innocent child. (From out of the child-bag mentioned earlier.)

This.
This is gold.
He might actually throw the ECS at me if I do it. Or he'd sing (like a banshee wailing) for he thinks he's a talented singer. (See the afformentioned "it's gold" comment in a post) Either that or he doesn't care and subjects us to his singing...

I love you all. Seriously, these suggestions are great. Please, keep them coming.
No matter how outrageous, throw em at me. If you can come up with a way to convince him to not throw us up against the other Lords of Dust after, it's an added bonus.

You guys are awesome. All of you.
Sorry for the long post, wanted to try to reply to all of you - in no partcular order. :smallbiggrin:

Everest

2011-09-21, 07:43 PM

The Glyphstone

2011-09-21, 07:52 PM

Make sure the barbarian is on board with this plan, it sounds like he'll go for it when you tell him.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-21, 07:54 PM

Make sure the barbarian is on board with this plan, it sounds like he'll go for it when you tell him.

The barbarian player is taking a trip.

Lord Loss

2011-09-21, 08:15 PM

I've played with DMs liked this before, and the bottom line is, if the DM wants you to win, you'll win. If he doesn't, tough luck.

I say this because of him stopping your ''stopping an ambush for a monologue'' thing. When a DM does that, it's generally a big warning light that the game is in the hands of the DM and not, in fact, in those of the players.

JaronK

2011-09-21, 08:17 PM

Try to recruit a few more DMPCs for the battle, and let them do the work for you.

Sounds to me like your Druid player is sick of this game anyhow though. I would be too.

JaronK

The Glyphstone

2011-09-21, 08:26 PM

The barbarian player is taking a trip.

Oh, missed that. Well, take copious notes to entertain him with after.

And if you do try this plan, make sure you stick with it, whatever your DM tries to make you do otherwise. Buy your supplies without telling him what they're for, so he can't shoot it down early.

Waker

2011-09-21, 08:57 PM

Ok, here's the plan.
1. Buy three scrolls of Flesh to Stone.
2. Use said scrolls on the party members.
3. Voluntarily fail your saves.
4. Either the game ends or the party is awakened in the distant future.

Or do something silly like combine a bag of holding and a portable hole.

Psyren

2011-09-21, 09:31 PM

Which levistus are you using? The fiendish codex version is only cr21. And he is basically just a duelist knockoff with minimal spell support, so I don't really see him as too big a threat. However, considering that you are lacking arcane support...the fight may be tougher than it appears.

Just chiming in that the reason the CRs are so different between the books; the FC2 versions are just their aspects, whereas the BoVD versions are the Lords themselves. Also, the BoVD version is most likely under-CR'ed on top of it.

Anyway, I second Glyphstone's suggestion.

EDIT: According to both BoVD and FC2, all of the other Lords - including Asmodeus - have a vested interest in keeping Levi on ice. Should you choose to play along with this madness, that may be a way of dealing with him.

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 12:19 AM

Going along with Psyren's suggestion: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu.

I'm aware he's not a Devil, but he's got enough power to sling around to definitely tip the balance in favor of the party.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 01:22 AM

Dude, how have you played with this guy so long? :smalleek:

My recommendation is this: rather than attempt to fight Levistus, pull some ridiculous plan-averting shenanigans (like all the suggestions to suck up to Levistus, or, if he has a Mary Sue DMPC, flee from the fight and be all "well, why don't you do it then, tough guy?") and get his goat, then announce your leave.

Living in the middle of no-where. Only a few gamers out here and we live by the "Better an awful game than no game."
So, yeah, we are to blame as well. But we do share DMing duties and we have talked to the guy on a few issues....which resulted in more irritating issues, for example, the backstory fiasco, but I digress....

I've played with DMs liked this before, and the bottom line is, if the DM wants you to win, you'll win. If he doesn't, tough luck.

I say this because of him stopping your ''stopping an ambush for a monologue'' thing. When a DM does that, it's generally a big warning light that the game is in the hands of the DM and not, in fact, in those of the players.

Yeah, but anything to help us survive/hold out/avoid combat and come out with our dignity, memories and lives intact without a smug DMPC rubbing our noses in it is always appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

You are right, the above backstory Fiasco was him hijacking our backstories and modifying them to his liking. The Cleric was worst hit, having a good long story. The DM tried to hand the player one and them proceeded to play the wise old cleric who trained the PC as a bumbling idiot. Cleric player is still peeved.

He also tries to show players up, but you probably got that from the smug NPC characters and smug DMPC's.

Try to recruit a few more DMPCs for the battle, and let them do the work for you.

Sounds to me like your Druid player is sick of this game anyhow though. I would be too.

JaronK

The druid has been useless since day one. Not managing spells, taking forever to do anything, leaving combat to pester wenches. I've been tempted to beat the little bugger senseless and throw the blighter into a sack. And the sack into the silver flame. Or a hungry dragon's maw. Whatever is convenient.

Barbarian is sick of it - to be fair, he's not alone. He's pleased he's outta here before this goes down. He'll be living it up in Aussie.

Ok, here's the plan.
1. Buy three scrolls of Flesh to Stone.
2. Use said scrolls on the party members.
3. Voluntarily fail your saves.
4. Either the game ends or the party is awakened in the distant future.

Or do something silly like combine a bag of holding and a portable hole.

Suggestions for a delivery system? ...I suppose a hireling could work?

Just chiming in that the reason the CRs are so different between the books; the FC2 versions are just their aspects, whereas the BoVD versions are the Lords themselves. Also, the BoVD version is most likely under-CR'ed on top of it.

Anyway, I second Glyphstone's suggestion.

EDIT: According to both BoVD and FC2, all of the other Lords - including Asmodeus - have a vested interest in keeping Levi on ice. Should you choose to play along with this madness, that may be a way of dealing with him.

Got the Barbarian to pester the DM a bit, without letting on to the fact we are plotting. He says the other Rajah's don't care about Levistus getting free.

I'm loving the suggestions so far, I'll be sure to take as many of them as I can. I'm gonna try to pull as much of this stuff as I can in the hopes it helps.

Please feel free to add more!
:smallbiggrin:

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 01:34 AM

Break a Staff of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#power). In front of him.

Relevant bit: A staff of power can be used for a retributive strike, requiring it to be broken by its wielder. (If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check.) All charges currently in the staff are instantly released in a 30-foot radius. All within 2 squares of the broken staff take points of damage equal to 8 × the number of charges in the staff, those 3 or 4 squares away take 6 × the number of charges in damage, and those 5 or 6 squares distant take 4 × the number of charges in damage. All those affected can make DC 17 Reflex saves to reduce the damage by half.

Staffs start with 50 charges, and he'll make his save. 200 damage is great and all, but OH NOES he has 478 HP.

So have your other party member break one next round. :smallamused:

EDIT: I forgot to mention that this has the added benefit of having a 50% chance to kill the character who breaks it. I say this is a benefit because if you both eat it, BOOM campaign over = happy players.

Worira

2011-09-22, 01:38 AM

Levistus+Eberron what

But anyway, OOC problems+IC solutions is no worky.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 01:41 AM

Break a Staff of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#power). In front of him.

Relevant bit: A staff of power can be used for a retributive strike, requiring it to be broken by its wielder. (If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check.) All charges currently in the staff are instantly released in a 30-foot radius. All within 2 squares of the broken staff take points of damage equal to 8 × the number of charges in the staff, those 3 or 4 squares away take 6 × the number of charges in damage, and those 5 or 6 squares distant take 4 × the number of charges in damage. All those affected can make DC 17 Reflex saves to reduce the damage by half.

Staffs start with 50 charges, and he'll make his save. 200 damage is great and all, but OH NOES he has 478 HP.

So have your other party member break one next round. :smallamused:

I lol'd. Hard. If he gives us enough cash to kit ourselves out with two before the battle, I'm doing this.

I must say, since I've posted, my feelings have changed from dread to...well, hope and amusement. Thank you all, keep up the good work.

Edit: "The character breaking the staff has a 50% chance of traveling to another plane of existence, but if he does not, the explosive release of spell energy destroys him. Only certain items, including the staff of the magi and the staff of power, are capable of being used for a retributive strike. "
This is a bit of a buzz kill....

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 01:49 AM

Levistus+Eberron what

But anyway, OOC problems+IC solutions is no worky.

We've tried talking to him. Only caused more issues. His games are...railroad heavy. You are bolted to the tracks. His 'improv' session - in which he had "No idea what would happen" was actually scripted. Blood of Vol cultists after a doomsday device and a pre-planned speech. And only one path to take to get there. I wish I were joking. We HAD to follow the tracks.

I'm not really looking for a fix to his DMing style - we've been nice and tried. We'll probably try again. Right now, beating Levistus is the goal.

And yeah, an imprisoned Rakshasa Rajah thingermabob, imprisoned in ice up north.

-Oh, maturity isn't the DM's strongest area. He will go passive aggressive and whinge if you irritate him. Several games, I've been tempted to let him be mauled to death cause he was trying to convince me to heal his lost 10 hp- as opposed to the PC who was keeping us alive and almost at 0 hp.

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 01:56 AM

Right now, beating Levistus is the goal.

Why? His only goal is revenge, and you certainly aren't the people who put him there. He's certainly aware of the fellow who put him there, and of the guy who didn't free him- Asmodeus. Why go after him at all?

Tell your quest-giver to stick it, and then head to the pub for a few drinks and some wenching.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 02:04 AM

Why? His only goal is revenge, and you certainly aren't the people who put him there. He's certainly aware of the fellow who put him there, and of the guy who didn't free him- Asmodeus. Why go after him at all?

Tell your quest-giver to stick it, and then head to the pub for a few drinks and some wenching.

Because he says to, it's his story, etc.
Also, I'm willing to bet his revenge will come secondary to attacking us. Or taking over the world or something. Either way, our heads will be forced onto the chopping block before Asmodeus' will.

I half expect them to all be smug jerks that form some "League of Eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil" that join forces just to kill heroes.

Or he'll pull out the prophecy or some crud like that....blasted prophecy.
We'll head down to the tavern and he'll be there. Go camping, there he is again! Bathing in the river, HELLO.

"The prophecy says you MUST defeat him guys!"

Though, admittedly, the headlines would be amusing.

"Archfiend spotted at seedy brothel in lower Sharn"
"Levistus freed! Seen at charity ball"

We've been soverign glued to the rails my friend.

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 02:18 AM

We've been soverign glued to the rails my friend.

So use the Universal Solvent of refusal.

He starts his monologue, refuse to listen.

He starts a fight, refuse to fight.

The rails are only as real as you choose to make them; if your DM doesn't agree with that, then he's playing alone and might as well be writing a book.

A cruddy book, by the sounds of it.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 02:28 AM

So use the Universal Solvent of refusal.

He starts his monologue, refuse to listen.

He starts a fight, refuse to fight.

The rails are only as real as you choose to make them; if your DM doesn't agree with that, then he's playing alone and might as well be writing a book.

A cruddy book, by the sounds of it.

Funny you should mention that, he likes to write.
Qualitywise, you're spot on.

That would trigger his passive agressive oh so mature response.
He's always been like this. I'm not too keen on pissing him off, we're a small group. Well.....

The Cleric was suggesting we ignore the rails. Talking to him won't work, as his campaign, like all his characters (who are as original as Sonichu) and all his writing is gold and anyone who dares to disagree is uncultured or an idiot or something.

We are pretty much along for the ride.

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 02:34 AM

We are pretty much along for the ride.

Only if you want to be. "Fine, kill us" is an acceptable response in some situations.

Actually, this IS your solution. Write the following down on a piece of paper: "We hire a high-level Cleric to cast True Resurrection on us in one year's time. We each give him a piece of hair, fingernail, etc., and pay him in advance."

Then, mock the Devil lord to his face, and when he inevitably kills you (or doesn't, at which point you win anyway), you hand your DM the paper.

BOOM reverse Xanatos gambit!

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 02:41 AM

Only if you want to be. "Fine, kill us" is an acceptable response in some situations.

Actually, this IS your solution. Write the following down on a piece of paper: "We hire a high-level Cleric to cast True Resurrection on us in one year's time. We each give him a piece of hair, fingernail, etc., and pay him in advance."

Then, mock the Devil lord to his face, and when he inevitably kills you (or doesn't, at which point you win anyway), you hand your DM the paper.

BOOM reverse Xanatos gambit!

He'd never let that fly. All high level Clerics would be killed or something.
I do like it though....

I guess I don't want to cause trouble for the group. We've few members and I don't want to drive another one -even if he is a bit of an annoying manchild - away.
(Espeically while one player is on holiday)

The Glyphstone

2011-09-22, 06:21 AM

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 07:31 AM

Face it, you're not going to get what you want (a legitimate victory). He's going to railroad you into fighting, you're not going to win unless the DMPC steps in, the DMPC will step in, and you refuse to even just say 'no, I won't play' OOC (because it'll upset the Awful DM of Awfulness), let alone torpedo the session in-game (same). What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish anyways?:smallconfused:

At this point? Thanks to some of the ideas, I've hope that maybe we can kill him - even if it is through unconventional means. Before he throws a DMPC at us with that smug look.

Preferably with everyone surviving intact. I know from experience, the DMPC won't arrive until it's dramatic enough. The DM has an obsession with being awesome.
...okay, scratch that, I don't care if EVERYONE comes out in one piece. The druid, the dino and the DMPC can all snuff it as far as I care.
Not very nice, I know....

I don't want to upset him - as then we'd be down to three. And the druid player has been consistently useless....
We're currently a small group and I would rather not put the final nail in the coffin. Even if this guy's games aren't the best.

By 'not willing to torpedo' I assume you mean not doing things like "Sticking it to the quest giver" or paying off a Cleric in advance to be raised later, or just deciding to go awol?

If so, the DM, lovely guy that he is won't allow it.
Grey pointed out that it's a cruddy story. About sums it up. We've freedom as long as we don't go left or right. Only straight.

Stopping the Barbarian's ambush was a prime example.
If you want to do X, but he doesn't like it because it's not something he wants in his story, he'll not allow it.

We have raised this point before, to no avail obviously.

Anyways,
With only two people, I'm not expecting to be able to fight him in a what would be by our standards a 'normal' encounter. I'll be stocking up on pretty much every item mentioned in this thread - that I can afford at least.

If we can drop Levistus before an oppertunity for a 'badass' entrance arrives, I think we can take Levistus on our own.

I found out that the Cleric has the Apprentice and Mentor feats - currently has one apprentice and one cohort. So, our retributive strike fodder.

So, goals would be as follows:

1) Kill Levistus before the DMPC turns up - preferably without the death of a PC (Preferable)
2) Suvive the encounter - the hard part being I'll have to close to melee with him at some point. Even with the DMPC's arrival, Levistus will probably be content to slaughter me before the DMPC can use the power of being a Mary Sue.

If anyone is interested, I'll post a quick summary of the battle afterwards?

Ok, I hope I covered everything there, I'm quite tired and grouchy. If not, I'll answer tomorrow at some point.

JaronK

2011-09-22, 12:58 PM

Here's another option to consider. Sit down one on one with this DM and let him know your concerns in a mature way. Point out that you feel the entire adventure is on rails, such that you don't feel like you get any real input to the story. Mention why you feel you can't be the star of the story (you and the other players), including the DMPC thing. Don't do this as a blame thing... frame it as a "let's make the game better" thing. Point out that the other players are also showing signs of having this trouble (the Druid up and leaving mid fight, for example). Ask him if he has any solutions that might allow the game to NOT go just according to his plan.

Work from there.

JaronK

Hazzardevil

2011-09-22, 03:04 PM

I think that you need to give the DM a chance to talk to us.
Right now (this is likely his view)
He has 2/3 whiny players who refuse to follow his perfectly written story which he wants a few actors to make work.

To get back at these players, let's throw at them one of the most powerful monsters in all of 3.5, watch them squirm and then rub their noses in a single NPC dealing with it.

Everest

2011-09-22, 03:40 PM

@Alex: If you weren't posting on the Internet, I might get the "I'm in the middle of nowhere and can't find others to play with" bit, but you're a member of a forum with a pretty large play-by-post community--a.k.a. Giant in the Playground. I can't guarantee the games you might join will work out, but they ought to be a sight better than what your manchild DM is giving you. If that doesn't sound like it's what you want, and you'd rather play in real life: tell him (after okaying it with the rest of the group) that he's not allowed to DM anymore. Since the group apparently splits DMing duties anyway, it's not too huge a step.

137beth

2011-09-22, 03:47 PM

Talya

2011-09-22, 03:52 PM

So, the three characters, my unoptimized duskblade, an unoptimized healbot cleric and a useless druid with a dinosaur from the Talenta planes. (She mucks around in combat, even going so far as to drop her weapon and just leave once)

That's it? Impossible. Maybe if I had a month to plan I could come up with something, but this... No, it's hopeless. I mean, if you only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

Tvtyrant

2011-09-22, 03:53 PM

My suggestion is bag of holding plus portable hole, which no save throws everyone within ten feet are thrown onto the Astral Plane. Have a summon put the one into the other and hurl him through the cosmos. It won't kill him, but it will let you "win" the battle for cheap.

That's it? Impossible. Maybe if I had a month to plan I could come up with something, but this... No, it's hopeless. I mean, if you only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

+1000 internets!

TroubleBrewing

2011-09-22, 03:54 PM

That's it? Impossible. Maybe if I had a month to plan I could come up with something, but this... No, it's hopeless. I mean, if you only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

You win the thread, Talya.

As a matter of fact, you win all of the threads.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-22, 03:58 PM

The druid probably is just bored with the railroad plots

He hasn't been helping since day one. It's not the railroad plot.

Talya

2011-09-22, 04:03 PM

He hasn't been helping since day one. It's not the railroad plot.

It takes a special kind of incompetence to be useless as a druid.

Hoboshank

2011-09-22, 04:29 PM

another thread just game me an idea...bloodline cheese....

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 04:47 PM

@Alex: If you weren't posting on the Internet, I might buy the "I'm in the middle of nowhere and can't find others to play with" bit, but you're a member of a forum with a pretty large play-by-post community--a.k.a. Giant in the Playground. I can't guarantee the games you might join will work out, but they ought to be a sight better than what your manchild DM is giving you. If that doesn't sound like it's what you want, and you'd rather play in real life: tell him (after okaying it with the rest of the group) that he's not allowed to DM anymore. Since the group apparently splits DMing duties anyway, it's not too huge a step.

I don't do play by post. I much prefer the whole group thing. We are recruiting, but it is a slow process. In the past year, we've had maybe two new people show interest.
I'm not complaining that the group is small, I just don't want to be the guy who, as stated before, puts the final nail in the coffin.

I think that you need to give the DM a chance to talk to us.
Right now (this is likely his view)
He has 2/3 whiny players who refuse to follow his perfectly written story which he wants a few actors to make work.

To get back at these players, let's throw at them one of the most powerful monsters in all of 3.5, watch them squirm and then rub their noses in a single NPC dealing with it.

I'll talk to him about it. I don't think he's getting back at us. I hope he doesn't think we're whiny - we've followed his story. When he's denied us a course of action, many times we've rolled our eyes and gone with it.

When we have got extremely annoyed, we've made a point of calmly explaining our posistion - and we're sure not to go in and rant and rave and blame him.

As for the powerful monsters....well....that stems from his love of Dragonball, Dragonball Z and all those other superhero cartoons.

His last game featured enemies putting aside their hate fueled vendetta's against each other to deal with a group of level 5 pcs who had no interaction, even indirectly with the group.

To his credit, he does make an attempt at fixing things. He tends to go about this in the wrong way, generating several new issues.

Having known this guy for around eight years now, I can tell you that all characters, be they PCs, NPCs or DMPCs have been smug and arrogant.

Here's another option to consider. Sit down one on one with this DM and let him know your concerns in a mature way. Point out that you feel the entire adventure is on rails, such that you don't feel like you get any real input to the story. Mention why you feel you can't be the star of the story (you and the other players), including the DMPC thing. Don't do this as a blame thing... frame it as a "let's make the game better" thing. Point out that the other players are also showing signs of having this trouble (the Druid up and leaving mid fight, for example). Ask him if he has any solutions that might allow the game to NOT go just according to his plan.

Work from there.

JaronK

We've done this a couple of times. I know he's putting time and effort in and we don't want to ruin that. His outlook is always the same. It's pure gold and behind the back of the player who raised the concerns he's snark about them not getting it. And then he'll try to fix it - even if it's as simple as saying "I had my own backstory I wanted to use for my chatacter if that's ok."

I think there's some more relivant stuff in the reply to Hazzardevil as well, just above.

Oooh, it's updated since I started this post.

Thread seems to have derailed slightly, from two men against an archfiend to "Help defeating my DM"
I'll take the blame for that, I probably pushed the thread that way. Sorry guys.

My suggestion is bag of holding plus portable hole, which no save throws everyone within ten feet are thrown onto the Astral Plane. Have a summon put the one into the other and hurl him through the cosmos. It won't kill him, but it will let you "win" the battle for cheap.

+1000 internets!

We're gonna open with this. See what the DM says. Failing that, breaking those staffs of power. That fails, we throw the dust and move down the list I've got from everyone.

That's it? Impossible. Maybe if I had a month to plan I could come up with something, but this... No, it's hopeless. I mean, if you only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

We can buy one? I've also got a black cloak if it helps? I can't remember what else they used though...

another thread just game me an idea...bloodline cheese....

Bloodline cheese? What's that?

It takes a special kind of incompetence to be useless as a druid.

Yes. Yes it does.

Hoboshank

2011-09-22, 05:08 PM

Bloodline cheese? What's that?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215991

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-22, 05:13 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215991

Except you need to level up to get that. This guy doesn't have leftover levels, or skill ranks, or feats.

Hoboshank

2011-09-22, 05:18 PM

Except you need to level up to get that. This guy doesn't have leftover levels, or skill ranks, or feats.

well that ruins that idea...well if all else fails you can just get the cleric to chain gate solars

Donox

2011-09-22, 06:36 PM

Well, I've had DMs that sound kind of like yours....my solution is to smash their campaign to pieces. Either they'll flip out at you (perhaps allowing you to talk some sense into them), or they won't care (which would allow you to win the encounter with ease)

The easiest thing for you to do would be chain gating solars, or using cohort shenanigans. You could replace your clerics cohort with an optimized wizard, or an optimized anything really. And ubercharger/hulking hurler (I'd love to see the look on your DMs face when you casually roll for damage, and say some absurd result in the 1000s.) Alternately, you could go for metamagic abuse, and make a twinned quickened, empower, maximized enervation (or orb of electricity) for substantial damage/negative level.

Oh, or you could have your characters commit suicide, and come back as a ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

I'd love to hear how this turns out by the way.

The Glyphstone

2011-09-22, 07:00 PM

Won't your DM just arbitrate that all these sneaky tricks (staves of power, portable holes, cursed dust) just fail to work because of their lack of awesomeness?

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-22, 10:00 PM

Won't your DM just arbitrate that all these sneaky tricks (staves of power, portable holes, cursed dust) just fail to work because of their lack of awesomeness?

Possibly. Then again, it's a legit way of beating him. Outside of the box, but within the rules.
His DMPC's aren't exactly awesome...then again, from his point of view.

I hope he doesn't, but if he does, what can we do?

At least we'll have tried, you know?

EagleWiz

2011-09-23, 12:13 AM

I don't think the portable hole trick would work. He is an archfiend. Sending him to another plane gets rid of him for 6 seconds.

MammonAzrael

2011-09-23, 01:03 AM

There are a lot of tricks and options that have been posted - mechanical, roleplay, and OoC. Since you have implied that simply telling the DM that you are not have fun and walking away from the game is not an option...

...do you believe that anything your character does, regardless of it's technical legality in the game system, will affect Levistus if your DM doesn't want it too? If doing something "disruptive" to his story like pledging yourself to the Arch-Devil's service is something he will not allow, what make you think that a mechanical option will work any better?

Frankly, from what I've read, as I see it you only have three real options:

Spend your time trying to find a loophole or strategy that will allow you to emerge victorious, and then have your DM simply handwave it as ineffective and continue with his "gold" story. Little will change and it sounds like you will continue to spend your time in a game you aren't actually enjoying.
Sit back and do nothing, allowing the DM to speechify to his hearts content. Let the DMPC save the day. And then let him do it again when confronted by the next enemy. This will likely be boring.
Let your DM know you will not be attending the game, as you feel that no matter what you do, you will be confronted with a creature well above your CR and will not be able to stand on your own merits. Then stay at home and read or play a video game. I recognize that you have few people to game with, and you are unwilling to explore PbP gaming (have you considered IRC games or using something like MeetUp.com to find other players within ~1 hours distance?), but if you aren't enjoying the game, then what is the point? DM yourself, or expand your search.

phlidwsn

2011-09-23, 08:21 AM

My suggestion is bag of holding plus portable hole, which no save throws everyone within ten feet are thrown onto the Astral Plane. Have a summon put the one into the other and hurl him through the cosmos. It won't kill him, but it will let you "win" the battle for cheap.

Go for building one of these puppies (http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/superweapon_arrowhead.gif). If possible, aim so that only part of his body, ie head, is within the 10' sphere of destruction. Probably worth it just for the look on his face when you produce the schematic.

The Glyphstone

2011-09-23, 08:29 AM

You've said that awful gaming is better than no gaming, and you don't want to be the one who destroys the group once and for all because you haven't found anyone new to recruit. At some point, you may have to consider that your lack of new players is because of this person's presence in your gaming group - it sounds like he's such a poisonous player on both sides of the screen that I can't imagine anyone wanting to be in a group with him as a player or DM.

Use this fight against Levistus as the silent final test, so to speak - pull out all the crazy, unorthodox tricks we've suggested that you can manage, see if he'll let any of them actually work without invoking DMPC Mary Sue awesomeness. If he fails the litmus test, wait till the barbarian comes back, and fold the group. Try to recruit the people who showed interest just the two of you, and see if their reactions change without the DM here involved...your group is sick, but being sick sometimes involves getting worse before you get better.

*Dr. DM will return after this commerical break*

El Dorado

2011-09-23, 09:08 AM

This (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/09/05) came to mind, especially after the wheelbarrow reference.

Waker

2011-09-23, 09:48 AM

Ok, new plan. Get yourself some Soveriegn Glue, a bag of feathers and then summon two flying creatures. Have one of them dump the glue on Levistus while having the second creature dump a bag of feathers on him. Victory.

Joking aside, you could try choosing a battleground that showcases his weaknesses. Levistus lacks the means to fly (he doesn't even have any ranks in climb). He also can only teleport once per day, find a way to get him to burn it. So if you manages to either bury him underground or make use of walls during combat, it might give you an edge. He can summon devils who do not share his shortcomings though, so be prepared to use dismissal. Levistus does not have any ranks in swim or possesses a swim speed, so this could be another vulnerability to exploit. Make sure your cleric friend and yourself have freedom of movement and water breathing on. Utilize underwater summons and battlefield manipulation (like Evard's Tentacles at the bottom of the water) to keep him underwater and drown him. Remember that Outsiders still need to breathe.

Also note his lack of True Seeing, meaning you can fool him with illusions. I'll post an elaborate plan to chain him up at the bottom of a lake later.

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-26, 06:33 AM

Hey, been away for a bit. Sorry about the delay.
So, our Barbarian player has left the country. Off to Aussie, lucky sod.
Before he left, we all got together (well, except for the druid player who was busy on WoW or something) and had another sit down with the DM. We once again, calmly voiced our concerns.

We explained that we weren't blaming him for anything and that we appreciated the fact that he's put time and effort into his game. We made sure to thank him for that. We then talked about how it is rather...linear and focuses heavily on his 'badasses' - the DMPCs.

We were as gentle as possible, but still managed to get our point across. He went all passive agressive at us, so that means he's taking it poorly and we just don't understand how awesome the story is.

Also happened to catch a peek at the npcs he made when he was in the john.
A group of warforged called the autobot led by one called Otimus Prime , Dread Pirate Roberts, Liberty Prime, (Yup, flamestrike nukes and all) a Batman expy and a monk that flies and shoots balls of energy.

The Barbarian made him promise to keep the DMPC 'Quirky miniboss squad' as he calls them out of action unless we are in mortal peril.

Oh - I've also got the druid to agree to take one action in combat. I offered to let him play my DS for the rest of the session if he breaks a staff of power right by Levi. He has no idea what it will do....but hey...

In my defense, I started to explain - and then persisted when he told me he didn't care. :smallbiggrin:

Righto, time to reply to posts.

Go for building one of these puppies (http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/superweapon_arrowhead.gif). If possible, aim so that only part of his body, ie head, is within the 10' sphere of destruction. Probably worth it just for the look on his face when you produce the schematic.

AHA! Thank you! I've been looking for these bad boys for a while now. I'll keep the schematics on hand.

You've said that awful gaming is better than no gaming, and you don't want to be the one who destroys the group once and for all because you haven't found anyone new to recruit. At some point, you may have to consider that your lack of new players is because of this person's presence in your gaming group - it sounds like he's such a poisonous player on both sides of the screen that I can't imagine anyone wanting to be in a group with him as a player or DM.

Use this fight against Levistus as the silent final test, so to speak - pull out all the crazy, unorthodox tricks we've suggested that you can manage, see if he'll let any of them actually work without invoking DMPC Mary Sue awesomeness. If he fails the litmus test, wait till the barbarian comes back, and fold the group. Try to recruit the people who showed interest just the two of you, and see if their reactions change without the DM here involved...your group is sick, but being sick sometimes involves getting worse before you get better.

*Dr. DM will return after this commerical break*

Cleric and I have decided to try the litmus test. If he fails, he's banhammered from DM duty.
For a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon g time.

Well, I've had DMs that sound kind of like yours....my solution is to smash their campaign to pieces. Either they'll flip out at you (perhaps allowing you to talk some sense into them), or they won't care (which would allow you to win the encounter with ease)

The easiest thing for you to do would be chain gating solars, or using cohort shenanigans. You could replace your clerics cohort with an optimized wizard, or an optimized anything really. And ubercharger/hulking hurler (I'd love to see the look on your DMs face when you casually roll for damage, and say some absurd result in the 1000s.) Alternately, you could go for metamagic abuse, and make a twinned quickened, empower, maximized enervation (or orb of electricity) for substantial damage/negative level.

Oh, or you could have your characters commit suicide, and come back as a ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

I'd love to hear how this turns out by the way.

I'll post a summary as soon as I get home from the game. It's set for Friday 7th - a bit earlier than I had expected.

Ok, new plan. Get yourself some Soveriegn Glue, a bag of feathers and then summon two flying creatures. Have one of them dump the glue on Levistus while having the second creature dump a bag of feathers on him. Victory.

Joking aside, you could try choosing a battleground that showcases his weaknesses. Levistus lacks the means to fly (he doesn't even have any ranks in climb). He also can only teleport once per day, find a way to get him to burn it. So if you manages to either bury him underground or make use of walls during combat, it might give you an edge. He can summon devils who do not share his shortcomings though, so be prepared to use dismissal. Levistus does not have any ranks in swim or possesses a swim speed, so this could be another vulnerability to exploit. Make sure your cleric friend and yourself have freedom of movement and water breathing on. Utilize underwater summons and battlefield manipulation (like Evard's Tentacles at the bottom of the water) to keep him underwater and drown him. Remember that Outsiders still need to breathe.

Also note his lack of True Seeing, meaning you can fool him with illusions. I'll post an elaborate plan to chain him up at the bottom of a lake later.

You have until Friday the 7th. I look forward to seeing this plan.

I think that you need to give the DM a chance to talk to us.
Right now (this is likely his view)
He has 2/3 whiny players who refuse to follow his perfectly written story which he wants a few actors to make work.

To get back at these players, let's throw at them one of the most powerful monsters in all of 3.5, watch them squirm and then rub their noses in a single NPC dealing with it.

I've told him about this site - even told him he can use my account if he'd like.
Suggested telling his side of the story, maybe get some unbiased opinions. Fingers crossed.

Killer Angel

2011-09-26, 06:47 AM

Also happened to catch a peek at the npcs he made when he was in the john.
A group of warforged called the autobot led by one called Otimus Prime ,

:smallsigh:

You have until Friday the 7th. I look forward to seeing this plan.

I'm really curious about it. :smallsmile:

I've told him about this site - even told him he can use my account if he'd like.

Don't. shared accounts are against the forum rules (I suggest you to check 'em)

Alex Ashgrave

2011-09-26, 07:03 AM

Don't. shared accounts are against the forum rules (I suggest you to check 'em)

Noted. Haven't read them since I made this. Obviously I need a refresher.
I doubt he'll come on though. We can hope.

Edit: And by come on, I mean onto this site, not my account. Just thought I'd clarify. Don't want to get in trouble now.

Retech

2011-09-26, 07:20 AM

+1 to chain gating Solars