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View Full Version : Super villains: less super, more villain.



Xiander
2011-09-21, 04:11 AM
Hello playgrounders. :smallsmile:

I am running a superhero game on Sunday. For setting reasons, super-powered villains should be rare, which leads me to the problem: How to challenge a group of four very super-powered heroes without swarming them with mooks or pitting them against equally super-powered villains.
I know all the odd tricks, like putting Mary Jane in danger while the heroes are battling the Green Goblin, or setting up other moral dilemmas. But I do want to have a fair hero to villain beat-down at some point.
My solution: Give some villains super powers, but fluff it as exceptional but non supernatural skills or abilities. Where i am coming up short is in finding powers fit for this sort of re-fluff.
Which is where you come in, please offer me any and all suggestions you have.

Ideas i already have myself:

A villain who is extremely lucky.

A guy with extreme pain tolerance, which i wil represent by giving him some dammage resistence

Fireblasts, represented as a highteck flamethrower.


Tl;dr: Give me ideas for people with super human powers, fluffed as exceptional but non supernatural ability. (don't worry about systems, i can figure that ut myself, I just need ideas.)

Totally Guy
2011-09-21, 05:20 AM
What about people who exploit institutional problems such as breaking the economy, exploiting racism or disease.

What's superman going to do to solve racism?

To prevent the optimal solution from being "I kill the bad guy" have a gambit where things are made worse by the guy's death.

I had a character once who had a bomb hidden somewhere in the city on a timer. Every week he'd reset the timer. If he were to be killed he'd fail to reset the bomb and there'd be a big problem. Have him talk about his death gambit. It does him no good if it's a secret.

Xiander
2011-09-21, 05:32 AM
What about people who exploit institutional problems such as breaking the economy, exploiting racism or disease.

What's superman going to do to solve racism?

To prevent the optimal solution from being "I kill the bad guy" have a gambit where things are made worse by the guy's death.

I had a character once who had a bomb hidden somewhere in the city on a timer. Every week he'd reset the timer. If he were to be killed he'd fail to reset the bomb and there'd be a big problem. Have him talk about his death gambit. It does him no good if it's a secret.

I plan to use those tricks as well, because they are good staple tricks in the genre. However I want scenes where killing the bad guy is the solution as well, and for those i need villains powerful enough to challenge the players, but i don't want all of them to be from crypton or having been struck by lightning.

To clarify, your point is valid, and you did give me some great ideas. The thing is, that i had already considered stuff along those lines.

Gabe the Bard
2011-09-21, 06:22 AM
What kind of powers do your super heroes have? Maybe the villains could possess skills or abilities to counteract those powers.

If one of your heroes has ultrakeen sight, your villain could be blind but have extraordinary hearing (i.e. blindsight), allowing him to navigate in the dark or while the hero is blinded.

If he has super strength, you could have a judo master who uses the hero's own strength against him. I'm sure there's something in Tome of Battle to help you with that.

You could also have a villain with a lesser super power, like a psychic with limited ESP or precognitive abilities, which he uses to maximum advantage, keeping him one step ahead of the heroes.

Xiander
2011-09-21, 06:32 AM
What kind of powers do your super heroes have? Maybe the villains could possess skills or abilities to counteract those powers.

If one of your heroes has ultrakeen sight, your villain could be blind but have extraordinary hearing (i.e. blindsight), allowing him to navigate in the dark or while the hero is blinded.

If he has super strength, you could have a judo master who uses the hero's own strength against him. I'm sure there's something in Tome of Battle to help you with that.

You could also have a villain with a lesser super power, like a psychic with limited ESP or precognitive abilities, which he uses to maximum advantage, keeping him one step ahead of the heroes.

Good solid ideas, thank you :)

The team consists of:

A wooden boy who can grow to a size of 30 feet (making him very strong and tough) and shoot rays which transforms people into animals.

A magician with the power of telekinesis, Illusion and limited dammage resistance.

A girl who can turn intangible, controll plants and who possesses toxic claws.

Another girl who cans hoot lightning, control electricity, detect energies and view remote places.

Thrawn183
2011-09-21, 10:05 AM
You could have a villain who does "evil" things that are entirely legal. The heroes could still take them down, it just wouldn't be legal for them to do so.

Warlawk
2011-09-21, 11:59 AM
Less Super, more Villain.

Well, the way I would approach this would be with technology. Let's start with a weapons development company, let's call it NeuTech (NT for short from here on out). NT has military contracts and was recently under investigation for selling some of their tech in development out to mercs. Nothing concrete was able to be made stick, and they were cleared of charges. It's not that they are innocent, it's that evidence and witnesses kept disappearing so NT ended up in the clear, but are still being watched.

NT is now using mercs as field testers for tech that isn't supposed to exist. Dangerous prototype tech that could fail in spectacular and catastrophic ways that would make several city blocks cease to exist. Now, NT has contacts in the military and black ops world so the guys they are using to test this stuff are very, very good. They are funneling tech to wetworks teams that officially don't exist, that sort of thing. If the PCs start looking around, they become a threat and a liability that should be eliminated.

This would give you a solid background company that can be the larger 'villain' while providing a number of disposable bad guys that have access to super tech. In fact the PCs would be ideal targets as perhaps this tech is being developed as an equalizer between flatscans and supers. Over time maybe they can even start working with bionic/cybernetic enhancements or battlesuits.

It's pretty easy to tailor the motivations of the company (or perhaps the company is just a puppet for a super who's powers are based in tech or super intelligence) to suit your needs and your world.

Mando Knight
2011-09-21, 05:52 PM
There's one important difference between Supervillains and the regular kind, and it's not power level.

It's PRESENTATION! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJJjcrwXQE)

Tengu_temp
2011-09-21, 05:55 PM
Two words: power armor.

Cespenar
2011-09-21, 06:03 PM
Have the villain do his homework and come up with tricks that renders the heroes' powers useless, or exploit their weaknesses. Easier if the villain makes heavy use of technology.


Two words: power armor.

Also, this.

Metahuman1
2011-09-21, 06:15 PM
Make him fight smart. He keeps putting civilians in the line of fire so the PC's have to hold back. He makes locations that are extremely valuable the locations of battles so that the PC's end up having the public turn against them because of collateral damage. Also, make him keep the PC's REacting in stead of acting. There so busy dealing with X that they don't have time to do Y so they can't actually achieve Z.

Look at the Joker. What made him so dangerous was that he didn't let other people dictate the terms of ANYTHING, at ANYTIME!

Friv
2011-09-21, 06:26 PM
Have a supervillain whose powers let him build robots, golems, or something similar. This way, the players can reasonably foil his plots and destroy his minions without him ever being in serious trouble, and you can reuse him several times as they try to gradually track him down.

What game system are you using? Using 'normal' supervillains in Mutants & Masterminds is going to run a lot differently from doing the same thing in Aberrant.

NichG
2011-09-21, 10:23 PM
Seconding technology, you could have the beatdown be superheroes versus things that individuals normally don't go up against in combat situations: tanks, planes, other vehicles, culminating in a fight against big power armor things. They could even be automated. Superheroes versus super-intelligent AI that can take over machines could also be interesting for similar reasons.

You could also introduce pseudo-super technology. Z-rays, coveted super energy-dense materials that are only found in exotic places, etc. Maybe someone who has been capturing supers, analyzing their abilities, and has been trying to mimic them with technology/bioengineering, creating unstable artificial supers for your PCs to go up against.

Some powers you could fluff as technology: gravity manipulation, force fields, turning matter insubstantial or invisible, inertial dampers (take any fall or hard collision as if it were nothing, effectively turns a normal person into a super for the purpose of taking punches and other bludgeoning impacts), the ability to hide and attack from extra dimensions, teleporting bullets, holographic fakes, solid holograms that can transmit blows, sonic fields that do weird things with physiology like knocking people out, making them afraid, or making them nauseated, highly focused sound/light/etc to make things appear or be audible only to a single person (maybe the villain uses it to convince people they're having religious experiences?), drug-induced pain resistance, etc.

Paseo H
2011-09-21, 11:20 PM
A couple random ideas for superpowers:

1. 'Iron Body' type skills. Some martial artists harden their bodies to where body parts are tougher and can hit harder or withstand more damage. It's not supernatural, though some might portray it as 'chi' type powers. Some research might be good to work this out.

2. Magic, but not. Imagine a phlebotinum of some sort that has as its byproduct a form of energy that is malleable to the mind of the person it is in contact with, thus giving the appearance of magic. For example, one I came up with is called 'Blue Energy,' which is absorbed into the person's body, and gives off a vapor like byproduct that can be given water or mist like properties, and with the right mental focus, can be used as an attack.

Jerthanis
2011-09-21, 11:20 PM
None of your heroes sound invulnerable enough that something between a handgun and a rocket launcher wouldn't still hurt them, so it's still viable to have the bad guy essentially be a guy with a gun and a degree of unusual tenacity, ingenuity and human resources management.

Poison gas, firebombs, grounded poles to absorb electricity, decoy henchmen, decoy hostages dressed as henchmen, splitting their focus so they can't support each other as easily by drawing some away from others.

If there's nothing that affects the intangible girl while she's intangible, make up something that can so that she doesn't always have perfect immunity to anything at any time to fall back on.

I might also suggest that instead of trying to make fights with Norms the knock-down-drag-outs, that you should concentrate on making the rare few Superpowered villains really impressive. Team superheroes tend to fight singular enemies that can match them in every respect (Fantastic Four vs Dr. Doom) and this dichotomy, of having Norms struggle mostly to get away or cheat to win, while their equals are capable of standing and fighting in a way the party might not be used to might serve to give them a better sense of the difference between Norms and Supers and consequently make them feel much more powerful for it.

GunbladeKnight
2011-09-22, 01:24 AM
I'd say take a cue from Lex Luthor. He hides behind the law most of the time, and relies on technology in order to face Superman. Heck, he even became president once (maybe more).

Others to look at: most of Batman's villains (Joker took out Green Arrow, Thor, Plastic Man, and another super at once in the Brave and the Bold). Or Kingpin from Marvel. Also throw in some anti-heroes that the heroes have to work with, but betray them just as they subdue the villain for the valuable.

Killer Angel
2011-09-22, 02:50 AM
Or magic. Give your villain a relic, an artifact ala Loki's Mask.
Then, you choose if the Villain is the guy, or the object...

Xiander
2011-09-22, 02:55 AM
Okay, there are a lot of good suggestions on the table already. Thank you, but I think I need to give some description of the plot i am planning.

The setting is London 2030.
The city is dominated by organized crime, run by an hidden organization called the syndicate. Five years ago a group called the protectorate formed to battle the syndicate, which they have done with varying success. The protectorate is a group of vigilantes, membership is illegal, and the police force has, for the most part been bribed to pay more attention to the protectorate than to the syndicate. The players are protectorate members.

The plot starts with the players being asked to investigate a large jailbreak, where several of the most dangerous prisoners have been busted out of a high security holding facility. The syndicate is expected to be behind it.
The syndicate is not behind it. Instead, a top secret research facility, which i have yet to name, has hatched a plan to take over the city.
The plan is to bust out these dangerous prisoners, infect them with a deadly virus, which the facility holds the only remedy for, then use this to force them to aid the plan for conquest. The prisoners are to make a lot of havoc in town
to distract the few non crooked cops and the protectorate while the real coup is set in motion.
While those who would oppose it are occupied, the facility plans to take out the leadership of both the protectorate and the syndicate, as well as the head of the police, who is the most honest cop in town.

What I am really looking for are ideas for the most dangerous criminals, complete with gear made by the facility.

B!shop
2011-09-22, 04:08 AM
Good solid ideas, thank you :)

The team consists of:

A wooden boy who can grow to a size of 30 feet (making him very strong and tough) and shoot rays which transforms people into animals.

A magician with the power of telekinesis, Illusion and limited dammage resistance.

A girl who can turn intangible, controll plants and who possesses toxic claws.

Another girl who cans hoot lightning, control electricity, detect energies and view remote places.


Make the villain (or a group of them) immune to most your player's powers.
They could have a DNA anomaly, be the result of a (failed?) experiment or something similar.
They still are affected by "normal" powers (extra strenght from the wooden boy, lightinings and claw attack) but everything else just doesn't affect them (so no illusion, no toxic attacks, etc...).

They could be independent in London, of members of one of the factions, or the leaders of a third power in the city.

paddyfool
2011-09-22, 05:12 AM
Lots of combat potential, not much in the way of investigation skills obvious in your party. So vicious characters could shake them up with preparation.

You could have one of these cons be a mild mannered, harmless appearing knife murderer. He gets up close to his target then slashes and stabs with a concealed blade. A nasty surprise for your party, and you could ramp up the scare factor with good narration, while he could definitely leave them hurting (not wood boy, but any of the rest if he let them). Well, technically he could kill any of the other three, but you wouldn't want that; just have him mark them up if you and he manage to fool them. Good for an opening gambit to get them on their toes.

Another one could have syndicate, crooked cop, or other criminal connections, and end up with a whole posse of gun-toting allies if the party don't track him down fast enough.

Another could maybe have a real hate-on for supers, and love to bring them down; he might be in for the murder of previous heros of some kind. He might well be anticipating a hunt by supers, and be preparing for such, through investing in surveillance kit to have a look at them early, plus maybe setting up traps and breaking out heavy ordinance. Intangible girl might be the hardest for him to threaten, unless he gets the drop on her. And if you really want to hurt them, give him some means of power-suppression. (e.g. a power-suppressive location). Your players might not find it fun to suddenly have their characters lose all their awesome abilities, however, even temporarily.

All of these would be glass cannons, of course, whom the heroes could take down in a fair fight before they could even blink. The thing is, that none of them are interested in anything like a fair fight.

Xiander
2011-09-22, 06:01 AM
All of these would be glass cannons, of course, whom the heroes could take down in a fair fight before they could even blink. The thing is, that none of them are interested in anything like a fair fight.

I like the ideas, and i planned on doing stuff like that from the beginning. i am going to use the knife murderer, because i like the idea a lot. Likewise I intend to have a pyromaniac light everything on fire and try to escape while the heroes are saving civilians. Good stuff all around.

But at some point I would like a fair fight, and that is where I draw blank.
What i am thinking right now is this:

A huge brute of a man, who was an enforcer for the syndicate before he was arrested for several counts of, murder, manslaughter and grievous bodily harm. My idea is to let him boost his strength to ridiculous level for a short time, explaining it as adrenaline. On top I might give him some damage resistance because he is just that tough.

I could of course have mooks with high-tech weapons, represented by blasting powers.

The professional conman, who is so lucky that he gets a pool of points he can use to influence dicepools seems like a fun idea.

I lack more interesting non-super supers for such a fight.

Note: The players have skills above and beyond their powers, so detective work should not completely put them out of business.

paddyfool
2011-09-22, 06:09 AM
The brute is a good idea for something tougher. Another one is to have the villain be inside something tough; say they catch up with an armed robber type just as he's driving off in an armoured security van, and he tries to ride them down with it. They've then got to figure out how to take him down fast without civilian casualties. And then if they don't take him down fast, this could segue to a fun little chase scene.

Xiander
2011-09-22, 07:43 AM
The brute is a good idea for something tougher. Another one is to have the villain be inside something tough; say they catch up with an armed robber type just as he's driving off in an armoured security van, and he tries to ride them down with it. They've then got to figure out how to take him down fast without civilian casualties. And then if they don't take him down fast, this could segue to a fun little chase scene.

That one i like, very dynamic :smallsmile:

Yora
2011-09-22, 08:44 AM
A villain who is extremely lucky.
Reminds me of a webcomic in which the protagonists decide to kill Murphy.

But Murphy's Law strikes at every opportunity. :smallbiggrin:

Xiander
2011-09-22, 01:38 PM
Reminds me of a webcomic in which the protagonists decide to kill Murphy.

But Murphy's Law strikes at every opportunity. :smallbiggrin:

That sounds worth a read, do you have the name by chance? :smallbiggrin:

smashbro
2011-09-24, 08:23 PM
Specifically for the villain, you should give him henchmen, or something that lets him duplicate himself, and use these clones/henchmen to study the PC's and become friends with them in other adventures. let them get to know someone, and be friends with them, only for that person to betray them. When the PC's find out a few examples, they won't know who could be working for the villian.




Then, just put them (or have the villian) in situations that they are incredibly vulnerable in. Simple ideas are very good at making your party squirm.

The villain should give the players a sadistic choice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SadisticChoice). If the party is good aligned, you should watch The Dark Knight for ideas from the Joker, like someone else mentioned. But if that won't work on you party (if they are neutral to evil) make it something they care about.

I had my characters stumble on a huge treasure hoard of an evil, crazy old man. They defeat him with some scratches, but easily enough. As he dies, he announces that the place is set to explode in 60 minutes. (at this point, I pull out a kitchen timer and start it.) Sure, they can grab all the treasure that is there... but it will weigh them down more. Also, at this point, remind them that talking is no longer a free action :smalltongue:.

At the end of this was a room, where you needed to put tons of weight on sensors for the door to open, meaning they might have to leave some treasure behind here. It worked out really well, except I misjudged how long it would take them to get out, so the didn't need to leave behind as much as I had wanted, but they did have pressure on them to escape.



Also, the scariest fight for them was six level 13 PC's against four CR 9 monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yrthak.htm).

First, the rogue who is basically hidden all the time was found because of blindsense, like someone else mentioned, a very good counter to a rogue.

Second, the creatures didn't try to fight them, that would be stupid. Instead, the creature's attack strategy was to grapple, and then fly as high as they can, to drop the PC's. Stupidly, the PC's had split up, making it easier for the enemies, but you should have seen the look on their faces when they realized what was happening. Sure, they could easily kill the creatures if they could actually make a grapple check, but even if they did, by that point they would be 120 feet up in the air, which is a good amount of fall damage.

If only the person who plays a bard with the spell feather fall was playing the adventure instead of running it. :smalltongue:






tl;dr make the enemy clever. use unique tactics, and if he can let him know the character's weaknesses, with an in game explanation if possible.

QuidEst
2011-09-25, 09:50 PM
Well, chemical weapons are an excellent way to put a non-powered villain on par with tough heroes. They still have to breathe, tear gas is a problem even if if that isn't, neurotoxins work through the skin, a chemical sprayer can be repurposed into a flamethrower, smoke screens provide cover, and both hydrofluoric acid and chlorine trifluoride are seven kinds of nasty. Toss in some explosives, flash grenades, and what have you, and that's a fairly impressive arsenal of real-world stuff. Since it's a superhero setting, you can also throw in such fiction staples as knock-out gas.

Beleriphon
2011-09-25, 10:15 PM
WSince it's a superhero setting, you can also throw in such fiction staples as crazy purple knock-out gas.

The bolded part is added, and most important.

http://www.oocities.org/familyguymoments/211/211_11.jpg