Best (earliest) swiftblade entries?

[Hirax]

Are there any besides UA's battle sorcerer? Or how you could cast haste as a 5th level sorcerer? Basically I'm looking to go battle sorcerer5/swiftbladeX

Classes with a 9th level spell list are strongly preferred.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Kobold sorcerers make it easier. Outside of that, your best bet is to multiclass like mad.

[Flickerdart]

Swiftblade was designed specifically to be entered at level 7, and no earlier. There are some tricks to get around this, but mostly they get into some crazy cheese.

[Hirax]

Drat. I was hoping for sorc5/swiftblade10/ab champ5.

note: since this is theorycraft, swiftblade 10 is so that I can go immediately to swiftblade 11 at level 21 in the event I ever use a swiftblade in an epic game. The way I can get started on the bonus feats for epic class progression ASAP.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Swiftblade was designed specifically to be entered at level 7, and no earlier. There are some tricks to get around this, but mostly they get into some crazy cheese.

Like Sanctum spell Precious Apprentice Warchanter'd wizards? Who somehow got access to haste as a first level spell.

[ericgrau]

Abjurant champion and eldritch knight only put you behind 1 spell level so you hit 9th at level 19. I think you end up with 17/20 BAB.

[darksolitaire]

Death Master from Dragon Compedium, actually.

Edit: oh, but doesn't get haste without extra spell or something...

[Flickerdart]

Death Master from Dragon Compedium, actually.
They don't have Haste, nor a method of adding it to their repertoire - while Arcane Disciple (Time Domain) would do this, Death Masters serve Orcus, who does not have access to that domain. Furthermore, since you can only prepare one Haste in this manner per day, a Death Master with any bonus 3rd level spell slots (and thus, an Intelligence above 15) cannot use all his slots to cast Haste and meet that requirement.

Edit: Extra Spell only gives you a spell 1 level lower than your maximum, meaning that a Death Master couldn't take it for 3rd level spells before his 9th level feat slot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake can go Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade, but you'll need at least one flaw.

With all of the Kobold cheese and two flaws, you can go... Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1. That gets +19 BAB and 20th level Wizard spellcasting via Spellhoarding, at 20th level. You write your spells onto your scales instead of in a spellbook, so there's no risk of losing it. It is a lot of cheese, but there you have it.

[TheGeckoKing]

Edit: Extra Spell only gives you a spell 1 level lower than your maximum, meaning that a Death Master couldn't take it for 3rd level spells before his 9th level feat slot.

"Is it a Domain Feat? Is it an Aberrant feat? NO, IT'S SANCTUM SPELL!"

[Flickerdart]

"Is it a Domain Feat? Is it an Aberrant feat? NO, IT'S SANCTUM SPELL!"
If you're going to use Sanctum Spell, then you don't need to get saddled with Death Master in the first place.

[Hirax]

I'm hazy on how sanctum spell abuse works. Doesn't it involve extra spell?

[Retech]

Well, you can add White Dragonspawn Abomination to your backstory, saying you're one of the very unique ones, and get +2 or +3 additional casting levels for only LA 1 (and other goodies, like flight).

[Flickerdart]

I'm hazy on how sanctum spell abuse works. Doesn't it involve extra spell?
Sanctum Spell would let you pretend to have 4th level spells when you only have 3rd level spells, so that you could take Extra Spell for a 3rd level one. However, you don't have anywhere to put the feat (since at 3rd you only have 2nds, which means Extra Spell can't pick up Haste) and at 6th you could already qualify with any other class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ardent with a psionic adaptation for swiftblade? :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

Battle Sorcerer 4 with Mother Cyst, Apprentice Spellcaster, and Versatile Spellcaster can get into Swiftblade. It is going to require Human and 2 flaws, in order to get the feat requirements for Swiftblade, though.

Mother Cyst gives you 10 spells known, including a 3rd level one. Apprentice Spellcaster lets you swap a spell known for another every time you level, without any of that pesky "up to a maximimum..." business that regular swapping does, so you can pick up Haste by 4th level. Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a third level spell by expending two 2nd level slots. You have no third level slots, so that requirement is satisfied. All that leaves is 6 ranks in each of two class skills. You can get that with an Int of 8, if you are human, and there are few enough other races with a bonus feat, that it is probably worth it to be standard human.

[Little Brother]

Dread Necromancer?

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6(?)/Swiftblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X? Comes out to about 15.

Or you can Ardent 20 with the Magic Mantle.

[Tr011]

Sublime Chord can work.

[dextercorvia]

Dread Necromancer?

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6(?)/Swiftblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X? Comes out to about 15.

Or you can Ardent 20 with the Magic Mantle.

He wants to get into Swiftblade ASAP. Swiftblade1, isn't worth much.


Sublime Chord can work.

Not the best for getting into Swiftblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

He wants to get into Swiftblade ASAP. Swiftblade1, isn't worth much.



Not the best for getting into Swiftblade.

Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade +7 (advancing Sublime Chord)/Abjurant champion 2.

I think this maxes sublime chord casting but I am not sure...

[Flickerdart]

Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade +7 (advancing Sublime Chord)/Abjurant champion 2.

I think this maxes sublime chord casting but I am not sure...
Nope - you barely get 8th level spells.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Nope - you barely get 8th level spells.

Damnations!:vaarsuvius:

[TroubleBrewing]

Standard Sorcadin has already been mentioned, so I'm out of ideas.

Early entry shenanigans and Swiftblade generally don't go together, apart from the ones already mentioned.

[Hirax]

Battle Sorcerer 4 with Mother Cyst, Apprentice Spellcaster, and Versatile Spellcaster can get into Swiftblade. It is going to require Human and 2 flaws, in order to get the feat requirements for Swiftblade, though.

Mother Cyst gives you 10 spells known, including a 3rd level one. Apprentice Spellcaster lets you swap a spell known for another every time you level, without any of that pesky "up to a maximimum..." business that regular swapping does, so you can pick up Haste by 4th level. Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a third level spell by expending two 2nd level slots. You have no third level slots, so that requirement is satisfied. All that leaves is 6 ranks in each of two class skills. You can get that with an Int of 8, if you are human, and there are few enough other races with a bonus feat, that it is probably worth it to be standard human.

Whoa, as sketchy as that is, it actually isn't such a bad route if you can get a DM to swallow it and allow you to retrain those feats at later levels. 5th level entry is awesome and lets you grab more prcs out of a 20 level build. This is only theorycraft at this point, but I'm keeping that one in mind for the future.

[dextercorvia]

Whoa, as sketchy as that is, it actually isn't such a bad route if you can get a DM to swallow it and allow you to retrain those feats at later levels. 5th level entry is awesome and lets you grab more prcs out of a 20 level build. This is only theorycraft at this point, but I'm keeping that one in mind for the future.

You don't want to retrain those feats. The 11 extra spells are so worth it.

[Hirax]

You know, looking at it again, you're right. In particular I thought apprentice spellcaster wouldn't be worth it, but it means another level 9 spell eventually, which isn't so bad.

[dextercorvia]

You know, looking at it again, you're right. In particular I thought apprentice spellcaster wouldn't be worth it, but it means another level 9 spell eventually, which isn't so bad.

And you can combine it with a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium for another 9 spells known.

[Draz74]

Drat. I was hoping for sorc5/swiftblade10/ab champ5.

The Abjurant Champion capstone just sets your caster level equal to your BAB, right? And your character is already losing 3 points of BAB (two if you go Battle Sorcerer, which isn't really worth it). So you'd end up with a caster level of 17 or 18 ... which isn't that much better than the caster level 16 that you have anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure how valuable the last AbChamp level is for this build. Maybe you should just go for Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4.

Also, the title of this thread is misleading. The build you were hoping for still doesn't get Level 9 Spells. Just Level 8 spells (barely), thanks to the spellcasting levels that Swiftblade loses.


Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade +7 (advancing Sublime Chord)/Abjurant champion 2.

I think this maxes sublime chord casting but I am not sure...


Nope - you barely get 8th level spells.

That's OK, that's all the OP was hoping for with his Sorcerer/Swiftblade/AbjChamp build anyway! So this Bard build is perfectly feasible -- and a lot better than the Sorcerer idea in terms of skill points and flexibility, too. (Not so good for Spells Known, though. BAB is comparable either way.)

[Hirax]

Since it's theorycraft, I put level 9 spells in the title, because generally anything that doesn't have a level 9 spell list caps out at 5 or 6. Really I wanted 7th-8th level spells. Though since it's been established that battle sorcerer is the only one, I've gone ahead and changed the title.

Also, for anyone that's been wondering why I've been going out to swiftblade10, it's in the event this is ever used for an epic build, so you can go straight to swiftblade11 at level 21 to get started on your class epic feat progression ASAP.

[hex0]

(anything with Search and Disable Device as class skills) 5/Trapsmith 1 is the fastest way I know. Spellthief would be a decent choice. But spellthieves don't have the greatest spell list.

Kobold with Write of Greater Draconic Passage that took Kobold Paragon 3/Spellthief 2 might be decent.

Kobold Paragon 3/Spellthief 2/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion (or whatever) 5 with Master Spellthief would cast as a 14th level Sorcerer with full caster level. 18 BAB...

If you are allowed to 'hold' a feat off till second level for Draconic Heritage, a Human could have Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Sorcerer 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5 would cast as 15th level sorcerer.

[Elric VIII]

(anything with Search and Disable Device as class skills) 5/Trapsmith 1 is the fastest way I know. Spellthief would be a decent choice. But spellthieves don't have the greatest spell list.

Kobold with Write of Greater Draconic Passage that took Kobold Paragon 3/Spellthief 2 might be decent.

Kobold Paragon 3/Spellthief 2/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion (or whatever) 5 with Master Spellthief would cast as a 14th level Sorcerer with full caster level. 18 BAB...

If you are allowed to 'hold' a feat off till second level for Draconic Heritage, a Human could have Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Sorcerer 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5 would cast as 15th level sorcerer.

Stupid as it is, the Swiftblade requirements say that you must use your 3rd level spell slots to cast Haste. So no trapsmith entry.

[hex0]

Actually you could take Spellthief 1 with the Skill Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge) feat for Search and Disable Device, then take Sorcerer 4/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10. Scout is a decent choice for your first level as well, as Skimish is nice for Swiftblade. Or Duskblade or Hexblade 4 would be a nice run as well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Stupid as it is, the Swiftblade requirements say that you must use your 3rd level spell slots to cast Haste. So no trapsmith entry.

Here is a quote from the designer concerning that




Speaking from an intent perspective (which I know counts for very little in the optimized forums) the idea is for the swiftblade candidate to use all spell slots (of the level in which haste is gained) to cast haste. The Dungeonscape book did not exist when Brian and I originally created the swiftblade, leaving us completely unaware of the trapsmith prestige class when it was finally released. If we had been aware, the special prerequisite would have read...

Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all spell slots of the level in which haste is gained to exclusively cast haste.



:smallbiggrin:

[hex0]

Stupid as it is, the Swiftblade requirements say that you must use your 3rd level spell slots to cast Haste. So no trapsmith entry.

I'd argue that Swiftblade doesn't require you to have 3rd level spell slots. So you can "use" 3rd level slots even though you don't have them.

Edit: I was looking for that designer quote, but you posted it at the same time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

if you have zero 3rd level spell slots, and you use all of them to cast haste, then technically you've met that requirement.

[hex0]

if you have zero 3rd level spell slots, and you use all of them to cast haste, then technically you've met that requirement.

I think that everyone posted the same thing at the same time.

I'd count the Designer's quote as errata for Swiftblade. Trapsmith is the best and fastest entry.

[Darth_Versity]

While it requires a bit of DM help you can get meet the requirements at level 4 with no racial restriction. If you and your DM can come up with a blooline feat that grants haste as a spell you could take that bloodline feat plus versatile spellcaster. Then when you reach lvl 4 you can cast haste by using two 2nd lvl spells.

Probably need a bloodline based on a really speedy creature, but cant think of any off the top of my head.

[dextercorvia]

While it requires a bit of DM help you can get meet the requirements at level 4 with no racial restriction. If you and your DM can come up with a blooline feat that grants haste as a spell you could take that bloodline feat plus versatile spellcaster. Then when you reach lvl 4 you can cast haste by using two 2nd lvl spells.

Probably need a bloodline based on a really speedy creature, but cant think of any off the top of my head.

You would need either a flaw or a bonus feat race in order to get in that early.

[hex0]

You would need either a flaw or a bonus feat race in order to get in that early.

Yes, that is four feats and you wouldn't have a slot to 'know' haste onto.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, that is four feats and you wouldn't have a slot to 'know' haste onto.

You don't need a slot to know it. The bloodline feat would make it a spell known, whether or not you can cast it.

[kestrel404]

Beguiler 4/Fighter 1 - Fighter can be replaced with any full BAB class, but it gets you a free feat. Requires the Versatile Spellcaster feat.

[deuxhero]

One of the more bizarre entry is Warlock 6. This requires some very questionable sources (Neverwinter Nights 2 has a haste lesser evocation), and it requires DM ignoring some of the bad wording of EG to have one of the class features (and haste) function. Skip the capstone though, as you can't use it.

[Hirax]

I had mentioned it before, but it's buried now, so I'll put it in the first post where I mention swiftblade10, and here. Swiftblade 10 is so that I can go immediately to swiftblade 11 at level 21 in the event I ever use a swiftblade in an epic game. The way I can get started on the bonus feats for epic class progression ASAP.

Otherwise of course, in a strictly pre-epic setting, swiftblade9 would be as high as you could go and still get level 9 spells. Barring spellhoarding loredrake hijinx.

[dextercorvia]

I had mentioned it before, but it's buried now, so I'll put it in the first post where I mention swiftblade10, and here. Swiftblade 10 is so that I can go immediately to swiftblade 11 at level 21 in the event I ever use a swiftblade in an epic game. The way I can get started on the bonus feats for epic class progression ASAP.

Otherwise of course, in a strictly pre-epic setting, swiftblade9 would be as high as you could go and still get level 9 spells. Barring spellhoarding loredrake hijinx.

Note that in this regard, it is probably better to get nines first, since your most common first Epic Feat choices like Improved Spell Capacity (or Epic Spellcasting) won't be available at 21 otherwise.

[Hirax]

Not a problem thanks to mother cyst. Those are actually some pretty damn cool spells.

[pilvento]

My build : Monk1/Sorc3/Enlightned fist 6/Swiftblade 10

And if you want to caspstone quicker u can enter at lvl 7 too but hold ray is an exelent feature, enervation in ur face! :smallwink:

Been playing this charaters for 3 years already in a campaing, i never get bored!

[Hirax]

So I've just discovered the dragonsblood pool on page 149 of Complete Mage. Ala Otuygh Hole, drink up from the pool and you can get an additional spell slot of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level, but it can't be higher than what you can already cast. I'm curious if this could somehow be integrated into an early entry strategy.

edit: also worth pointing out metamagic storm, which grants you any metamagic feat, albeit for one year.

[Kansaschaser]

If you are playing Pathfinder, the Summoner class has Haste as a 2nd level spell. They get access to Haste at 4th level. Then you could take 1 level of fighter to qualify for the Base Attack.

If you can convince your DM to allow you to use a Pathfinder class, then it would be pretty easy to get the early requirements.

[dextercorvia]

So I've just discovered the dragonsblood pool on page 149 of Complete Mage. Ala Otuygh Hole, drink up from the pool and you can get an additional spell slot of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level, but it can't be higher than what you can already cast. I'm curious if this could somehow be integrated into an early entry strategy.

edit: also worth pointing out metamagic storm, which grants you any metamagic feat, albeit for one year.

Google "guide to the jakeverse Jacob's Ladder"

[Darth_Versity]

If you are playing Pathfinder, the Summoner class has Haste as a 2nd level spell. They get access to Haste at 4th level. Then you could take 1 level of fighter to qualify for the Base Attack.

If you can convince your DM to allow you to use a Pathfinder class, then it would be pretty easy to get the early requirements.

Summoner is a medium BAB so you already meet the requirements by lvl 4.

[hex0]

Summoner is a medium BAB so you already meet the requirements by lvl 4.

Holy snap!

[Hirax]

Only a 6th level spellcasting class though, which means you'd probably end up with 5th level spells only.

[hex0]

Only a 6th level spellcasting cast though, which means you'd probably end up with 5th level spells only.

If you can keep your spellcasting up you could have 6th level at 20. Not sure it would be worth it to go out of summoner though as I am not familiar with it.