PF- Enlarge Person and eidolons from the PF RAW Thread.

[The Awesome]

A27 Disagreement
Check the following text, specifically the bolded part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pathfinder SRD
"Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."


As far as I know, there is no spell with a range of "you" or "personal" that also specify that you need to be of a specific race or type, as such, the text can be read as giving you two abilities when casting from the Summoner spell list: 1. You can cast spells with a range of "personal" on your Eidolon, such as Shield or Alter Self; AND 2. You can cast spells that target any type of creature on your Eidolon as if it qualified for it despite being an outsider, such as Enlarge/Reduce Person.

The way I read the bolded text in Share Spells is (paraphrased) that spells that do not affect outsiders, can affect the eidolon. The target of Enlarge Person is specifically one humanoid creature.

From the PRD

Enlarge Person

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 round

Components V, S, M (powdered iron)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one humanoid creature

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes

Therefore, an eidolon, not being a humanoid, would not qualify as a target of his summoner's Enlarge Person.

I would like to know the rest of the Playground's opinion of this.

[Steward]

I've never thought about this before!

I thought that the wording of that feature suggested that you could target the eidolon with a spell, even one that doesn't work on Outsiders. I think the spell Enlarge Person could work since, even though it doesn't work on Outsiders, the specific wording of the class feature waives that requirement for spells from the Summoner's spell list. I can totally understand your interpretation though.

[BRC]

I fail to see the confusion. The Share Spells ability says you can cast spells on your Eidolon even if the spell in question wouldn't work on Outsiders, so the target of Enlarge Person is irrelevant, no matter how specific it is.

Are you saying that the Share Spells only allows spells that specifically say they do not affect outsiders, and that Spells that simply target a creature type other than outsider won't work?

[Infernalbargain]

This is very cut and dry.


A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider).

The only vagueness is what it means to cast a spell on something.

[The Awesome]

Are you saying that the Share Spells only allows spells that specifically say they do not affect outsiders, and that Spells that simply target a creature type other than outsider won't work?

That's not quite what I'm saying. I am saying that the ability states that if a spell prohibited it to be cast on outsiders, a summoner may cast it on his eidolon.

[Drothmal]

This is the last ruling from the UM FAQ

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obd


Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) use spells on himself that don't affect outsiders, even though he is treated as his own type or the outsider type, "whichever is worse"?
Yes, because the normal eidolon's share spells ability says "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)," and the synthesist archetype doesn't change that.

Note: This is a revision of an earlier question that used enlarge person as an example. FAQ pending about size-changing magic and a synthesist (because of the limitation of "the eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist" rule).

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11

There. For now Enlarge Person is in. But they might revise this (as they should with everything related to the synthesist. It is a fantastic idea, but it has too many holes and raises too many questions)

[CTrees]

Do note that the previous revision of the faq from paizo very simply used enlarge person as an example of a spell a summoner could share with his eidolon. The new revision apparently realized that was a tricky one w/ synthesists, as it can raise a lot of it's own questions.

This isn't really a debatable topic, anymore.

[Reverent-One]

That's not quite what I'm saying. I am saying that the ability states that if a spell prohibited it to be cast on outsiders, a summoner may cast it on his eidolon.

Incorrect. The ability states that if the spell cannot normally be cast on an Outsider, you may cast it on the Eidolon. Since Enlarge Person normally cannot be cast on an Outsider, you may cast it on your Eidolon.

[BRC]

That's not quite what I'm saying. I am saying that the ability states that if a spell prohibited it to be cast on outsiders, a summoner may cast it on his eidolon.
Hold on, I'm confused now, there you say you are arguing that a summoner CAN cast a spell on his eidoldon, even if the spell in question does not affect outsiders (basically, the ability's description), but HERE



Therefore, an eidolon, not being a humanoid, would not qualify as a target of his summoner's Enlarge Person.

you say that an eidolon would NOT qualify as a target because it's not a humanoid.

Which point are you arguing? The only way your argument makes any sense is if you assuming Targeting is different from Affecting, and therefore enlarge person could affect an Eidolon, but you can't target it because it's an outsider.

[The Awesome]

Thanks Drothmal. That's what I was looking for! :smallsmile:

[Larpus]

Oh well, got in too late for the party.

Anyway, that bit of FAQ was interesting, the last one I saw specifically stated that it did not work with Enlarge/Reduce, which back then caused a ruckus since, if memory serves me right, there is no other spell on the Summoner list (short of Range:Personal ones) that couldn' be cast on outsiders, which would render that whole bit about Share Spells useless, not to mention greatly jeopardize the value of even having Enlarge/Reduce in the list to begin with, as the whole list is geared towards supporting the Eidolon and suddenly there are those two odd spells that, by the old FAQ, couldn' be cast on Eidolons...huh?!?

Anyway, still on the topic, did they ever mention anything about the rules for enlarging Eidolons? Do we use the spell description or the specific description for large Eidolons (from the evolution)?

After looking at both, I've settled my opinion as "use the spell description", since the listed bonuses for Large evolution are way too high for a 1st level spell and it can be argued that the Large evolution, despite its name, not only makes the Eidolon large, but also has other bonuses attached to it, similar to how the Limbs (arms) evolution can be assumed to not only add arms, but also increase the size of the Eidolon's torso so it can support the new pair.

[The Awesome]

I also am working under the assumption of "use the spell description"

[panaikhan]

I get everything in this argument, apart from the bit in Share Spells that says Target of "you".
Do they mean "Target:Self" (some spells do say this), or do they mean "Target: Anything you can cast that would effect you"

Reading it the first way, a Synthesist could enlarge himself, but not his Eidolon (bad idea). Reading it the second way, he could now (because of the new FAQ) enlarge both.

[Barstro]

I get everything in this argument, apart from the bit in Share Spells that says Target of "you".
Do they mean "Target:Self" (some spells do say this), or do they mean "Target: Anything you can cast that would effect you"

Reading it the first way, a Synthesist could enlarge himself, but not his Eidolon (bad idea). Reading it the second way, he could now (because of the new FAQ) enlarge both.


The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

Those are three separate but related statements;

1) The Summoner can cast spells with a target of him/herself on his/her eidolon. Yes, they should have used "Target:Self", but that's what it means.

2) The Summoner can cast spells on his Eidolon that otherwise would not affect that creature type. Enlarge person can only be cast on a person, a Summoner can cast it on the Eidolon, even though it is not a person.

3) The only way the Summoner can use the above abilities is if the spell specifically comes from the Summoner's spell list. Summoner/Wizard does NOT get to use Wizard spells to do this, even if he also has the Summoner version. I personally would rule out wands and other magic items because I think that a Summoner should only be able to use the ability on his/her own eidolon.

Using the above for enlarge person;
1) does not apply because enlarge person is not Target:Self
2) does apply, the target is the eidolon, who otherwise is not a valid target
3) does apply, as long as the Summoner is using the spell from the Summoner list.

One question that has not been answered in the FAQ is; how is a Synthesist affected?

The Synthesist and Eidolon Merged Form (hereinafter MF) are treated as one person. A Synthesist casting Enlarge Person on himself while MF has one of two possible results. Based strictly on the above three rules, the MF is enlarged and the Synthesist inside stays the same, or the MF is enlarged and so is the Synthesist inside. I'm not sure it really matters which one, but I would probably rule that they both get enlarged.

A problem arises when someone else casts enlarge person. That's a whole different debate about what happens due to the fact that the MF is treated as a person or an outsider, whichever is worse. I leave that argument for another time.

[Larpus]

One question that has not been answered in the FAQ is; how is a Synthesist affected?

The Synthesist and Eidolon Merged Form (hereinafter MF) are treated as one person. A Synthesist casting Enlarge Person on himself while MF has one of two possible results. Based strictly on the above three rules, the MF is enlarged and the Synthesist inside stays the same, or the MF is enlarged and so is the Synthesist inside. I'm not sure it really matters which one, but I would probably rule that they both get enlarged.

A problem arises when someone else casts enlarge person. That's a whole different debate about what happens due to the fact that the MF is treated as a person or an outsider, whichever is worse. I leave that argument for another time.
It's specifically stated that the Fused Eidolon cannot be targeted separately, so the Enlarge would target both the Synthesist and the Eidolon, but then it is also stated that whenever the effect can only affect humanoid (or whatever the Synthesist is) or outsider, then only the valid target is affected by it. The given example is Banishment, which can target the Fused Eidolon despite the fact that it's not an actual outsider is a humanoid/outsider hybrid, but only actually affects the outsider part, leaving the Synthesist stripped naked, but not banished. Enlarge Person (coming from the Sythesist) can affect both, so the effect takes place as normal.

As to Enlarge cast by someone else, the rule is "whichever is worse", well, I'll go ahead and say that depending on the situation, being humanoid is worse for the Fused Eidolon.

Supposing both a medium Synthesist and Eidolon, if he counts as outsider, then the spell just wouldn't work, the end. But counting as humanoid, means that the spell takes place but only affects his humanoid half, making the Synthesist large while his Eidolon remains medium, forcing the Eidolon to leave and stripping the Synthesist.

Other combinations however have outsider as the worse option, such as when the Synthesist is naturally smaller than the Eidolon or when the spell being cast is Reduce instead.

[Barstro]

As to Enlarge cast by someone else, the rule is "whichever is worse", well, I'll go ahead and say that depending on the situation, being humanoid is worse for the Fused Eidolon.

Supposing both a medium Synthesist and Eidolon, if he counts as outsider, then the spell just wouldn't work, the end. But counting as humanoid, means that the spell takes place but only affects his humanoid half, making the Synthesist large while his Eidolon remains medium, forcing the Eidolon to leave and stripping the Synthesist.

Other combinations however have outsider as the worse option, such as when the Synthesist is naturally smaller than the Eidolon or when the spell being cast is Reduce instead.

The enlarged Synthesist is the main example that I and others have given for how "whichever is worse" can be played, and the dismissing of the Eidolon being the "worse" end result.

But the worse result for Reduce would usually be the opposite. Are we to make DMs play Fate to decide which is worse for each specific situation, or should there be an actual decision that Enlarge/Reduce from other sources only affects the Synthesist, and not his outsider-suit?

DM: "The evil wizard casts Enlarge Person on you. You become large and your medium Eidolon vanishes"
Player: "Dammit!"

DM: "The evil wizard casts Enlarge Person on you. You become large and your already large Eidolon becomes huge"
Player: "What? Why this time? Ok, cool."
DM: "Your Eidolon Suit is now Huge, which triggers a specific "when a huge outsider is in the room, the wizard is teleported to safety while everything else explodes" trap. The mountain falls on you and you die. What? It's the worse result. It's totally fair. Get back here, cry-baby, it's just a game."

[Larpus]

The enlarged Synthesist is the main example that I and others have given for how "whichever is worse" can be played, and the dismissing of the Eidolon being the "worse" end result.

But the worse result for Reduce would usually be the opposite. Are we to make DMs play Fate to decide which is worse for each specific situation, or should there be an actual decision that Enlarge/Reduce from other sources only affects the Synthesist, and not his outsider-suit?

DM: "The evil wizard casts Enlarge Person on you. You become large and your medium Eidolon vanishes"
Player: "Dammit!"

DM: "The evil wizard casts Enlarge Person on you. You become large and your already large Eidolon becomes huge"
Player: "What? Why this time? Ok, cool."
DM: "Your Eidolon Suit is now Huge, which triggers a specific "when a huge outsider is in the room, the wizard is teleported to safety while everything else explodes" trap. The mountain falls on you and you die. What? It's the worse result. It's totally fair. Get back here, cry-baby, it's just a game."
True, it does open up a bit of free interpretation, though I'd stick to "mechanically worse", so other than problems that rise from that one specific action immediately, nothing can or should be considered, also, it's impossible for the Eidolon to be enlarged, even if that is the worse effect, because it can only be enlarged through Enlarge being cast by its Summoner.

Anyway I think that Reduce Person poses a greater paradox than Enlarge. Enlarging as a form of control/debuff is very rare if ever truly used, due to casting time, it's hard to precise if the enlarged creature will actually be constrained and, if calculations are incorrect, then now you have a bigger problem than 6 seconds ago.

Reduce, however, is more doable as a debuff, since if the desired effect does take place, your problem is now smaller and weaker, so generally speaking, the worse situation is being reduced, however, that would only reduce the Synthesist, not the Eidolon, so it creates a scenario where it "doesn't matter", at least not immediately.