[PF] Alchemist Questions (Feral Mutagen and Alchemical Items)

[Flob]

Sorry about the long title there.

Okay, I have two questions. One is about the Discovery "Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen)". It says that I gain two claw attacks and a bite attack as primary attacks.

Question part
A) Do I do two attacks with me claws and a bite attack every time I do an "attack" action (standard), or do I have to do a full round action?

B) Do I get these all at my max base attack bonus?

C) Finally, when I get to BaB +6 and would normally gain another attck, do I get an extra claw attack during a full attack action?

Answered in PF FAQ. New question: How can I increase my number of natural attacks per round?____________________________________________ _________________

Different question. Does anybody know where I can find a list of all Alchemical Items that I can create?

Thank you everyone!

[panaikhan]

I think most Alchemical items have a 'craft DC' in their description in whatever book they appear in.

The 'Ultimate Magic' book has Alchemist Discoveries to give you extra limbs, though I'm not sure how far you have to go to get extra attacks with them.

Other than that, I have no idea how to increase natural attacks.

[Zagaroth]

THere are more mutagen discoveries in Ultimate Magic, not sure if they will help or not though

There is Rapid Strike from Dracnomicon, but it is very type limited, not sure if even monstrous humanoid qualifies

[stack]

Vestigial arms grant NO extra attacks (disappointing, I know). The extra arms can reload guns, hold a reach weapon for AOO's, hold a shield, keep potions drawn, and many other things, but no extra attacks.

[BlueInc]

Barbarian dip could get you quite a few natural attacks.

[Larpus]

As others said, Vestigial Arms and Tentacle sadly grant no extra attacks, so without stepping outside the Alchemist class there is no way to do it so far.

Even if you go multiclass there are only a few options (in fact, I can only think of a Fiend Totem Barbarian for an extra Gore), Synthesist does give you more potentially, but you need some levels in the class or your physical stats will suck.

And there is also the option of grabbing some race that grants you natural weapons, such as Gore, Slam, Tail, Wings, etc, but if you're using only the standard races you're really out of luck.

[stack]

Not that three attacks at full BAB is bad, especial for a medium BAB class who will never get more than three normal attacks in a round with a manufactured weapon using iteratives (except dual-wielding, with even more penalties).

[Eshi]

I think most Alchemical items have a 'craft DC' in their description in whatever book they appear in.
I don't think they do, other than in the few detailed in the Player's Handbook for craft skills here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft). There are a bunch of other things that should be craftable like Alchemist's Grease/Solvent/Kindness, but the DC has to be made up with DM approval.

[Flob]

Thanks for all of the responses guys! I guess the next question is; if I go into the prestige class Master Chymist, what discoveries should I take (I currently have Feral Mutagen, Precise bombs, and with the extra discovery feat, infusion at level four). Actually, here's the sheet.

Alfred Brewer Gold: 774.9
Male Human Alchemist 4
Chaotic Neutral
Strength 14 (+2)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 20 (+5)
Wisdom 10 (+0)
Charisma 7 (-2)
Size: Medium
Height: 5' 7"
Weight: 136 lb
Skin: Lightly Tanned
Eyes: Left: blue Right: green
Hair: Long grey hair/beard

Total Hit Points: 31

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 18= 10 +5 [+1 Chain Shirt] +2 [MW Heavy Wooden Shield] +1 [dexterity]

Touch AC: 11 Flat-footed: 17
Initiative modifier: +1 = +1 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +6 = 4 [base] +2 [constitution]
Reflex save: +5 = 4 [base] +1 [dexterity]
Will save: +1 = 1 [base] +0 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +5 = 3 [base] +2 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +5 = 3 [base] +2 [strength]
Attack (missile): +4 = 3 [base] +1 [dexterity]
Bombs (Fire/
splash/TOUCH) +5 = 3 [base] +1 [dexterity]
+1 [throw anything]
CMB +5 = 3 [base] +2 [strength]
CMD 16 = 3 [base] +2 [strength] +1 [dexterity]

Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Sylvan

Dagger [1d4+2, crit 19-20/x2, 1 lb, one-handed, slashing]

11x Bombs (per day) [2d6+5 (fire), 7 splash (fire), TOUCH, 20 ft.]

+1 Chain Shirt [light, +5 AC, max dex +4, check penalty -1, 25 lb]

Feats:
Extra Discovery Infusion
Extra Bombs Two more bombs per day
Shield Proficiency Can use shields at no penalty (not tower)
Discoveries:

Infusion Others can use my extracts
Precise bombs Exclude intelligence modifier worth of squares from splash dmg.
Feral Mutagen Gain 2 claw attacks (1d6 dmg)
And a bite attack (1d8 dmg)

Acrobatics Dex* 1 = +1
Appraise Int 12 = +5 +4 +3
Bluff Cha -2 = -2
Climb Str* 6 = +2
Craft_Alchemy Int 18 = +5 +4 +4 (class)
+2 (Goggles) +3
Craft_2 Int 5 = +5
Craft_3 Int 5 = +5
Diplomacy Cha -2 = -2
Disable Device >< Dex 6 = +1 +2 +3
Disguise Cha -2 = -2
Escape Artist Dex* 4 = +1
Fly Dex 4 = +1
Handle Animal Cha -2 = -2
Heal Wis 7 = +0 +4 +3
Intimidate Cha -2 = -2
Knowledge (arcane) Int 12 = +5 +4 +3
Knowledge (dungeoneering) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (engineering) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (geography) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (history) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (local) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (nature) Int 11 = +5 +3 +3
Knowledge (nobility) Int 6= +5 +1
Knowledge (religion) Int 6 = +5 +1
Knowledge (planes) Int 6 = +5 +1
Liguitics Int 5 = +5
Perception Wis 7 = +0 +4 +3
Perform_1 Cha -2 = -2
Perform_2 Cha -2 = -2
Proffession (fencing instructor) Wis 4 = +0 +3
Proffession_2 Wis 0 = +0
Ride Dex 1 = +1
Sense Motive Wis 0 = +0
Sleight of Hand Dex 6 = +1 +2 +3
Spellcraft Int 12= +5 +4 +3
Stealth Dex 1= +1
Survival Wis 4= +0 +1 +3
Swim Str** 2 = +2
Use Magic Device Cha 5 = -2 +3 +3
-1 Armor Check Penalty

Class HP rolled
Level 1: Alchemist 8
Level 2: Alchemist 6
Level 3: Alchemist 4
Level 4: Alchemist 5

Alfred’s Equipment
26 lb Weapons and Armor (above) experience:6000
2 lb Backpack (>containing)
- lb >28 vials
3 lb >3 trial rations
4 lb >waterskin
5 lb >bedroll
5 lb >Alchemist’s Kit
1 lb >MW Goggles (+2 Alchemy)
8 lb Explorer’s Outfit

54 lb Total


Okay, feats and discovery ideas?

[Larpus]

Personally I'd focus your build a bit more, focusing on bombs or melee, if you go melee I seriously suggest you take a look at the Vivisectionist archetype: you trade bombs for sneak attack and in PF there're very few creatures immune to it and it's pretty easy to set yourself up for it.

If you go bomb, then it's better if you further focus in either damage or control, as awesome as Alchemists and Discoveries are, there are so many Discoveries and you get so little that unless you focus your build you'll feel as if you're doing too many things but neither of them well enough.

That's my opinion, that is, I'm sure a switch hitter can be made without much trouble. The only thing I truly think is a waste in your build is Shield Proficiency, a single dip into Fighter or Barbarian will give you more bang for your buck.

[panaikhan]

I put together an Alchemist build, concentrating on fire bombs.
I chose just enough Master Chymist levels to let me top out the Vital Strike (I think) chain of feats.
Explosive Bomb is a great discovery, as is the one that gives Wis damage. I kinda like the one that turns the splash radius into a line, but didn't choose it for myself.

As for Chymist - there is a discovery in that PC that doubles your Mutagen duration, so that by CL9 (I think) each transformation lasts 3 hours - and by that time you can get 3 a day.

[Flob]

The only thing I truly think is a waste in your build is Shield Proficiency...

I know it isn't exactly the best feat, but I also couldn't decide on anything else to take. My goal was to build a switch hitter, mostly because I don't quite know what roll I'll be taking up in the party. We have a summoner who uses a longspear and a serpent, a sorcerer who is horribly unfocussed, a two handed weapon specialist fighter/barbarian who uses an Earthbreaker, and on occasion either a DPS Oracle focussing on fire spells or an unfocussed Druid.

My character needs to be able to heal in a pinch, deal damage and, when feces hits the rapidly rotating object, run into the fray. Any suggestions on what feat I should take to replace "Shield Proficiency"?

[Larpus]

Well, with that party setup, I think that the Barbarian and Summoner should have the damage dealing covered as long as they're even moderately optimized. The Sorcerer sounds troublesome, but as long as he gets minimally decent spells I don't think there'll be troubles with him and the Oracle is more damage, kinda boring.

Soooo, with that, the best job for you seems to be ranged control through bombs and Discoveries like Smoke Bomb, Stink Bomb and other Discoveries that modify your bombs into debuffing as opposed to damaging, your party will need someone to do that and you can very well fit those shoes.

As for healing, the best way is with a CLW Wand (you don't need the spell in your book) and not much else...the Cure X Wounds line is kinda lame for battle use (more often than not you'll only heal as much damage as you just received, achieving a catch-22, except that you run out of Cure X Spells but your attacker won't run out of attacks) and potions are overpriced, though having couple of them might pay off as a last minute action.

Bottom line, healing is a bad job that even if you build yourself to it, chances are you'll suck at it anyway, it's better to control the situation before any damage is dealed. So far the only more decent and useful way to heal in combat is with the Cleric's Channel Energy, due to how many targets it affects, but one standard action to cure one person is a very bad deal.

Anyway, if all goes well with your controlling, you won't need to go into the fray, but if you absolutely must do it, I guess that focusing on tripping targets is the way to go, unless you have the attributes for going medieval, then Feral Mutagen is a good source of damage (also, it would be good to have at least a level of Master Chymist so you can change your Mutagen bonus on the fly).

EDIT: Oh yeah, and if you get to a point where you simply don't have any feat to grab, then take a look at discoveries, there are many of those which are way better than any feat.

[Flob]

I guess a couple of other details on the party are in order. First off, nobobdy is even slightly optimized except for me (and I'm using the word "optimized" lightly for me).


The Oracle and Druid never show up.
The fighter/barbarian has a to-hit of about +5. Also, his AC is around 16.
The summoner uses acid splash to deal damage at range.
The summoner's snake has the highest AC, at 22 at level 4.
The sorcerer just plain sucks. Our DM is working with him a little.


I was playing a 2-handed weapon specialist fighter with a +10 to hit, 20 AC, a good chunk o' health, etc., but I'm switching to stop stepping on the fighter/barbarians toes. Plus, I wanted to try out an Alchemist.

Now, there is no option for "finding another group". These guys are good friends of mine, and I wouldn't try to find another group even if my life depended on it. I think you may see my conundrum here. I will take a look at more discoveries instead of feats though.

Thanks for being so patient with me so far.

[Larpus]

Ok, I feel your pain. In my group there's a defensive Fighter who has 18 Cha and no idea how to use his Intimidate or be the party's face (our DM uses Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate rolls as bonuses to what you actually said) and a support Paladin.

Anyway, one thing that's a good idea is to try and educate your friends, helping them if needed and just giving them options to be better at what they're attempting (for example the Summoner, tell him to go with bows instead of using magic), help optimize the fighter/Barbarian (he'll need it as much if not more than the Sorc).

Also, as you'll be the party's braon, step up and become the leader/strategist and work some effective party dynamics, by using the Eidolon as the meatshield and the such.

Still, the idea stands, if it were me I'd indeed focus on control and now I see your reasoning on wanting to do a swith hitter. Anyway, do that, Feral Mutagen and possibly Master Chymist should suffice overall.

EDIT: Ok, I have some extra time now, just to expose my suggestion a bit better:

Whether you want it or not, your team mates can deal damage, maybe not good damage, but damage nonetheless. However, none of them can provide support or, more specifically, battlefield control and there are many, many, many times where that is better to have control than damage.

Even better, that gives your DM a bit more margin of error of what he can throw at you, since he doesn't have to always lie on the to-hit rolls to keep you alive (if he don't want you dead yet), if you throw a Stink Bomb somewhere and some enemies stand there and the DM just noticed that's more than you can chew, then he can simply say they all failed their saves and are busy puking their guts out while your party has the time to focus on the remaining few, that are completely within your CR.

But since they're not optimized at all, chances are they'll also be needing some help in the damage department, so simply throw your bombs, make people puke/blind/etc, pop a Mutagen and go to town with your claws and bite. This way, you won't be too optimized for this, so you won't step on anyone's toes while still contributing.

I have already faced a similar problem, I did want to play either a Mr.Hyde Vivisectionist or a Summoner, however, when I saw the Fighter's build I thought to myself "he is a new player and he is actually expecting the Fighter class to be good at combat, which sadly is not true, do I really want to give him the cold harsh true now by playing a character who is both a competent/very good melee combatant, a spellcaster and has much more skills than the Fighter?" which is why I decided to play a controller Wizard instead, back then I hadn't read quite that much about Alchemists, so I didn't really give much thought about a control-based Alchemist, but I was pressed for time so I decided to roll a controller Wizard, which I already had some knowledge about and was something that I was also eager to give another go (my previous Wizard was too blasty and I consider it an overall failure as to what I wanted to do with him).

[Flob]

Thank you so much for you recommendations and experiences. I've decided on my build now, and I think it will go pretty well. On the subject of talking to the others: the summoner has been playing longer than I have and is just used to playing melee characters, the fighter/barbarian has been playing as long as I have and I think just rolled poor stats (highest is a 14), and the sorcerer... well, he's new. But, my DM has said that unless I am asked for help, I am not to give it since I am the optimizer is our group. Again, thanks so much.

[Sohawn warforge]

Hi This is to FLOB, saw where you were trying to make a dire and magebred bear as one creature. I do not if you ever got it done. First where do you go to get the warbeast template? Here is the dire bear template; http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dire_(3.5e_Template) Here is the Magebred bear template; http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/magebred-animal I hope this help you. Have a Great day an a Better Tomorrow!

If you start with a normal bear like below;

BEAR

Size/Type: Large Animal

Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)

Initiative: +1

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16

Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)

Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+8) and bite +6 melee (2d6+4)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Improved grab

Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent

Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3

Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +12

Feats: Endurance, Run, Track

Environment: Cold forests

Organization: Solitary or pair

Challenge Rating: 4

Treasure: None

Alignment: Always neutral

Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large)

Level Adjustment: —

These massive carnivores weigh more than 1,800 pounds and stand nearly 9 feet tall when they rear up on their hind legs. They are bad-tempered and territorial. The brown bear’s statistics can be used for almost any big bear, including the grizzly.

COMBAT

A bear attacks mainly by tearing at opponents with its claws.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a brown bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Skills: A bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

[Sohawn warforge]

Now add the Dire Bear Template to the normal bear which should get this:

DIRE BEAR

Size/Type: HUGE Animal

Hit Dice: 12d8+51 (105 hp)

Initiative: +1

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 19 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16

Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+23

Attack: Claw +19 melee (2d4+10)

Full Attack: 2 claws +19 melee (2d4+10) and bite +13 melee (2d8+5)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Improved grab

Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent

Saves: Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9

Abilities: Str 35, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10

Skills: Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13

Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)

Environment: Cold forests

Organization: Solitary or pair

Challenge Rating: 8

Treasure: None

Alignment: Always neutral

Advancement: 13- 36 HD (Huge)

Level Adjustment: —