OOTS #807 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[MoonCat]

This is so awesome Giant!

Tha tone person weeks ago was right!

[awibs]

Awesome as always, thank you.

[Kareasint]

Very nice work, Giant. That Kobold may want to stay in that other dimension.

[ORione]

Yukyuk is lucky he's on a different plane.

[MoonCat]

Ah. I was wondering when and how Belkar would react.

[SamBurke]

YAY! New comics! Coming out faaaast, too.

YukYuk better run... Faaaast.

[Aristeidis]

Nice to see Belkar back in the game, though I didn't get the last 2 panels...
Is it some kind of joke?

[Nerdsquared]

Hilarious head swap.

I love the inherent humor in that Belkar is "pretend[ing] to have character growth", but he does anyway.

[MichaelJCaboose]

Nice one, looks like Mr. Scruffy is becoming more of an animal companion by the minute

[Gift Jeraff]

Funny yet heartwarming. A pleasant and fitting surprise on the day I find out one of my kitties may not have much time left. Thank you, Giant.

[tcrudisi]

Belkar has quickly turned into my favorite character. I love the development he has undergone. He was great before; now he is amazing. I find it humorous that he even called out the influence the cat is having on him.

While this strip was not nearly as funny as its predecessor, it was a touching moment by Belkar and really showed the depth that even Belkar now possesses. It also shows why the OotS should not have split up.

[ss49]

That is sooo cute!

if sad for Gannji and Enor. SO far.

[Steward]

Nice to see Belkar back in the game, though I didn't get the last 2 panels...
Is it some kind of joke?

In an earlier comic, Belkar is moved to rescue two bounty hunters and friends who had been forced by Tarquin to fight each other in the arena. I think he's flashing back to that and now we get to see why Belkar was being so uncharacteristically generous; he displayed empathy towards the two bounty hunters by imagining himself and his cat in their place.


If I'm right, the relevant comics are from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html) to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html).

[Gaius]

D'aww... :smallamused: That's sweet.
*is allowed by Belkar to choose one of his two organs the halfling will remove*
*draws a blank, and so does not say 'appendix'*
D'oww...

[Mutant Sheep]

Mr. Scruffy's face on Enor's body is creepy to me. :smallredface: Mr. Scruffy lapping up the potion is cute though. :smallsmile:

[dogfish44]

Woo character development!

Also, is this like a slight flashback with Gannji and Enor? Perhaps we see Belkar's section next comic?

[Laws of Chaos]

Thanks Giant! Always a good day to see that the comics been updated.

I'm not sure if this shows Belkar as having character development or not lol. Loved it, and good to see him doing something!

[HalfTangible]

Nice to see Belkar back in the game, though I didn't get the last 2 panels...
Is it some kind of joke?

He felt empathy, realizing that the two bounty hunters dueling would've been like him dueling his cat.

Then he got annoyed because he thought it was Mr.Scruffy's fault.

[maximus25]

I love it. Glad for the two comics in one week too. At this rate, we can kill Xykon in 6 updates!

[Half-orc Bard]

That was an adorable strip I love when Belkar shows any form of not being an evil jerk(I also love it when he's an evil jerk)!!!

[ThePhantom]

Nice, and a clear example that Mr. Scruffy is the only living thing in the world, other than himself, that Belkar cares for.

[Blisstake]

Huh, that was fast.

Belkar seems so irritated from doing something helpful.

[The Succubus]

Wait, wait - BELKAR felt EMPATHY?

Who the hell wrote this and what have you done with Rich?!

j/k =p

[Holy_Knight]

Wow, I can't believe we got an "awwww" moment with Belkar!

Also, it's just as well that Belkar took the potion, seeing as Haley has owed him one for almost 800 strips. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) :smallbiggrin:

[faustin]

He felt empathy, realizing that the two bounty hunters dueling would've been like him dueling his cat.

Maybe Mr. Scruffy learned the "Summon Conscience" feat.

[fruityjanitor]

D'awww!

The end of this comic is gold! I remember being somewhat surprised and upset when the lizardfolk were saved (not that I hated them, just that I thought it would have been a touching death scene). But this comic put it all in perspective :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe Mr. Scruffy learned the "Summon Conscience" feat.Shojo did dress him up as a paladin in one bonus strip. "Mr. Scruffy can Smite Weevils twice per day!"

[Aristeidis]

In an earlier comic, Belkar is moved to rescue two bounty hunters and friends who had been forced by Tarquin to fight each other in the arena. I think he's flashing back to that and now we get to see why Belkar was being so uncharacteristically generous; he displayed empathy towards the two bounty hunters by imagining himself and his cat in their place.


If I'm right, the relevant comics are from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html) to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html).

Thank you and HalfTangible, I see it now!

[Mrs Flibble]

Belkar and a cute moment - my head just asplode.

So it appears that Mr Scruffy does indeed have a good influence on Belkar.
Curious, though: where's Blackwing got to? Last we saw, he was hanging around the sparkly pile.

And I want Vaarsuvius back.

[Crisis21]

Ooh! Belkar succeeded on a spot check for his own character growth! :smalltongue:

[Orzel]

D'aaaawwww

Wait?
Head (and therefore brain) of a cat
Body of a half-dragon orge

Belkar dreamed one of the DEADLIEST creatures ever.

[Weimann]

rangerin

ur doin it wrong

[Giggling Ghast]

Yer goin' soft, Belkar.

[bluewind95]

That was so cute! One of my favourite pages so far.

[Vemynal]

I keep remembering the saying "I'm still pretty sure it falls somewhere south of neutral"

[Zolem]

Wow that was fast...and now I'm starting to wonder if Belkar is getting a shift to GOOD...or at least Neutral.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, once he starts connecting his relationship with his cat to everyone else's relationships its going to get hard to justify allowing people to get killed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Damn it Giant why are you making hating Belkar so difficult >_< (I never really liked Belkar and I still dont; but it is difficult to keep those sentiments when he is given actual character growth)

It was a great comic in any case.

[Lord Loss]

That was one of my favorite strips ever. Good work, Giant, as usual. :smallbiggrin:

[Raddish]

Belkar has finally learnt that hurting things isn't the only way to make himself feel better.

I wonder how different Belkar would have been if he got close to a little kitty and bonded when he was really young...

[WickedWizard17]

YES! THE BELKSTER IS BACK AND HE'S REUNITED WITH THE SCRUFFINATOR! Now I just need to know what's going on with Roy . . .

Nice job on the quick updates, Giant!

Did it take anyone else a second to get what was going on in the second-to-last panel, or am I just stupid?

[Snails]

That is charming surprise. I surmise that up to this point Belkar's life was a perfect void of empathy. When he attempts to employ "Animal Empathy" and create an emotional connection with another creature, it leaks around and causes character growth.

[bluewind95]

I don't think that Belkar will turn good. But he might switch from "LULZ-EVIL" to a more 3D evil in which, while still being evil, he does care about some things.

[CrazyBlue]

It's about time he got his healing potion back.

[Anarion]

I totally said Mrrow out loud when I was reading panel 7:smallredface:

Seriously great comic though. I like that we have classic Belkar on the one hand because he thinks of hurting people before it occurs to him to remove the crossbow bolt. But at the same time, by understanding other people via his relationship to Mr. Scruffy Belkar gets real character growth. It's certainly been coming for a while, but I was definitely in the crew who thought Belkar would die before he had a chance to seriously change.

[otakufan]

D'awww!

Never would have thought I'd see the halfling showing empathy, even several strips after the fact. :smallbiggrin:

Mr. Scruffy is a good influence on Belkar after all!

[WickedWizard17]

Wow that was fast...and now I'm starting to wonder if Belkar is getting a shift to GOOD...or at least Neutral.

No way. In case you hadn't noticed he was looking around for someone to kill in cold blood so he could vent his rage? :smallwink: Let's not get carried away - just because Belkar has been shown to care for his own ranger animal companion doesn't mean he isn't Evil. Like, Belkar and Xykon are both Chaotic Evil, but that doesn't mean Belkar is as incapable of emotions and growth as a lich. As Haley said, I'm pretty sure it all averages out to somewhere that's still south of Neutral. :smallamused:

[Pigkappa]

Why do I feel like Belkar is going to die really soon?

[Hbgplayer]

Did it take anyone else a second to get what was going on in the second-to-last panel, or am I just stupid?

It took me several minutes to get the reference, I thought initially that it was Roy v. Thog. :smalleek:

And thank you Giant for faster than normal updates!

[Meta]

Fast update AND adorable Belkar moments when many we're predicting his imminent demise? Nicely done.

[Mutant Sheep]

No way. In case you hadn't noticed he was looking around for someone to kill in cold blood so he could vent his rage? :smallwink: Let's not get carried away - just because Belkar has been shown to care for his own ranger animal companion doesn't mean he isn't Evil. Like, Belkar and Xykon are both Chaotic Evil, but that doesn't mean Belkar is as incapable of emotions and growth as a lich. As Haley said, I'm pretty sure it all averages out to somewhere that's still south of Neutral. :smallamused:

You just say Belkar is going to be a lich?:smallbiggrin:
He's gonna die soon and nothing can change it besides the Oracle being wrong or just messing with Roy!:smallfrown: He is seeming more halfing-ish now too.

[One Skunk Todd]

...on the day I find out one of my kitties may not have much time left...

:( ~random stranger but fellow cat owner hug~

[Istari]

This was the first really sweet comic in a while. Always nice to have that relationship building.

[Beowulf DW]

I think the number 1 word in this thread is now "D'aaaaw."

Nice to see that even Belkar gets some character growth. Reminds me of the really old strip where Belkar gets a temporary boost to Wisdom, heals Elan, then almost makes an alignment shift before the buff ends.

[Mastikator]

Naaaaaawww belkie luvs his kitteh :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

Aw. Pets change even the worst psychopaths. :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

:( ~random stranger but fellow cat owner hug~~return hug~

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well, that confirmed it. Awesome comic, Giant! I was thinking about Belkar and that scene today, and what do you know? :smallbiggrin:

[Debatra]

It also shows why the OotS should not have split up.

But if they didn't, Scruffy would still be in Gobbotopia.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html

[NYCharlie212]

Can someone explain the last 2 panels? It seems that I completely missed the joke.

Edit: Never mind, went back to see Roy's quote and I got it now.

[J's]

Belkar has finally learnt that hurting things isn't the only way to make himself feel better.

I wonder how different Belkar would have been if he got close to a little kitty and bonded when he was really young...

After the kitty died (even if of old age) he would have become a more extreme version of what we know now. Swearing to never get that close to anything ever again.

[Whiffet]

Awww...

My heart just melted. So that's why Belkar saved the bounty hunters.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Orran]

No love for Belkar's take on the evil opposites? Ugly boot-shod diplomat amused me somewhat.

[Zorgophlats]

Just wanted to say that the second to last panel would have been a little less jarring if it was in a thought bubble form. I thought someone was talking to Belkar there.

[Karoug]

Masterpiece!

I SO sympathize with Belkar's initial reaction. One has to wonder what would happen if he had arrived too late to save Mr. Scruffy. To say that things would have gotten messy is a dire understatement.

[CrimsonAngel]

I hearted this comic. :I mmhmm

[turkishproverb]

Awesome. Fun to see Belkar softening.

[Gusion]

Soooo, is that the belt of strength in panel 2 and 3 laying next to kitty (the green thing)?

If so, I think our friend ranger is about to put it on and kick some very serious ass.

But that aside, I really enjoyed this strip. And I appreciate it coming out so quickly so we can get past the drama of the last one...

[snikrept]

And now we find out why he released the allosaur

[Luzahn]

Soooo, is that the belt of strength in panel 2 and 3 laying next to kitty (the green thing)?

If so, I think our friend ranger is about to put it on and kick some very serious ass.


You say it like that does not normally happen.

[Woodsman]

Aw... :smallsmile:

That... pretty much sums up my feelings on this strip.

[luagha]

As LOST teaches us, character growth always precedes death!

[Cjh601]

ARGH!!! why'd he choose now to start making Belkar likeable. I wasn't going to miss him before.

Other than that, truly was a great strip.

[Raistlin82]

Wow, that was so cute!
I mean, Belkar was already my favourite character in the strip since the events started by the legendary line: "There you are, you little scamp!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html)
But this comic puts him far, far ahead of anybody else in my personal favourite list.
However...


As LOST teaches us, character growth always precedes death!

This strip feels a lot like Belkar's eulogy.
I read "You're doing it backwards!" but what my brain is actually getting is "I'm a leaf on the wind... watch how I soar!" :smallfrown:

[Whiffet]

As LOST teaches us, character growth always precedes death!

Well, of course. Most stories don't wait until after a character's death to show character growth! :smallbiggrin: Most stories, not all. And because there are always people who can't tell... yes, I know what luagha meant.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wow, that was so cute!
I mean, Belkar was already my favourite character in the strip since the events started by the legendary line: "There you are, you little scamp!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html)
But this comic puts him far, far ahead of anybody else in my personal favourite list.
However...



This strip feels a lot like Belkar's eulogy.
I read "You're doing it backwards!" but what my brain is actually getting is "I'm a leaf on the wind... watch how I soar!" :smallfrown:

And the worst part is that the rest of the Order may never know it... :smallfrown:

[KoboldRevenge]

Dang it, the Giant IS building up our like of Belkar so we really feel loss when he dies. And It's working! (Wipes future tear away):smallfrown::smallmad:

[Geech]

I love these quick updates, and it's a great comic as well.

Why is Belkar still wearing the sandals, though? I would have expected him to take them off by now.

[Luzahn]

Eh, he was much more relateable before he started gaining complex emotions. He's losing the lack of characterization that defined him and made him interesting.

[legomaster00156]

Mr. Scruffy is the only creature Belkar can ever get a heartwarming moment with. And does he ever capitalize on it.:smallbiggrin:

[t209]

I wonder if Belkar could have enough time to spend with his cat before he dies. I think I am worried on what will happen to the car if Belkar dies.

[Mutant Sheep]

I wonder if Belkar could have enough time to spend with his cat before he dies. I think I am worried on what will happen to the car if Belkar dies.

Yeah, I'm worried about the Lawyers' car too. I hope the Empire doesn't confiscate it...:smalleek:

We are really all crying for Belkar now aren't we? His death strip will be painful to read. :smallfrown: Gonna miss him.

[OverdrivePrime]

Awww... heartwarming comic is awesomely heartwarming. ^_____________^
Only once before have I liked Belkar so much (SSGoW FTW).

[tcrudisi]

And the worst part is that the rest of the Order may never know it... :smallfrown:

I disagree -- the worst part is that he may not get a resurrection because the Order doesn't know it.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I disagree -- the worst part is that he may not get a resurrection because the Order doesn't know it.

Exactly what I'm saying.

But you know what would be even worse? What would be the greatest punch in the gut for us?

If Belkar dies protecting Mr. Scruffy from the Snarl. I can already see how something like that would happen.

:belkar: Hey, you, theological blooper reel! I don't care if you're a quasi-divine thing of pure hatred; if you lay one appendage on Mr. Scruffy I swear I'm going to--

--guh.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Exactly what I'm saying.

But you know what would be even worse? What would be the greatest punch in the gut for us?

If Belkar dies protecting Mr. Scruffy from the Snarl. I can already see how something like that would happen.

:belkar: Hey, you, theological blooper reel! I don't care if you're a quasi-divine thing of pure hatred; if you lay one appendage on Mr. Scruffy I swear I'm going to--

--guh.

:eek::belkar::eek::belkar::frown:

[TheMac04]

May I just say, regardless of what a complete bastard Belkar is...

D'AAAAAAAAAAWWWWW :smallbiggrin:

[Sethala]

Just wanted to say that the second to last panel would have been a little less jarring if it was in a thought bubble form. I thought someone was talking to Belkar there.

It is someone talking to him - check out panel 6 of strip 783 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html)

[Nimrod's Son]

Just wanted to say that the second to last panel would have been a little less jarring if it was in a thought bubble form. I thought someone was talking to Belkar there.
It's Roy speaking; Belkar's remembering panel six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html).

[Shatteredtower]

An interesting example of Belkarma. Gets you in an instant, it does.

[raymundo]

Well.. seeing Belkar all caring and nice, we can safely assume the Prophecy came true and the evilish murdering Belkar did die. So.. may the cat-caring murdering Belkar live, please?

[tmacdevitt]

... but I was definitely in the crew who thought Belkar would die before he had a chance to seriously change.

What if Belkar's death is not of the body but of his murderous spirit? Prophecy can mean so many things.

[Absol197]

What if Belkar's death is not of the body but of his murderous spirit? Prophecy can mean so many things.

As much as I love kitty-loving Belkar, "breathe his last" and "savor his next birthday cake" kinda implies something a bit more serious than a change of heart.

Oh, and also:

D'AAAWW!!! :smallredface::smallsmile::smallredface:

[Nightblade]

D'AAAWW!!! :smallredface::smallsmile::smallredface:

Basically, I logged into post this. That was so damn cute it cannot be tolerated.

[squidbreath]

Aawwwwwwwwwwwww
=

As much as I love kitty-loving Belkar, "breathe his last" and "savor his next birthday cake" kinda implies something a bit more serious than a change of heart.

Oh, and also:

D'AAAWW!!! :smallredface::smallsmile::smallredface:

Simple. Make him a woman. Never be "his" birthday cake anymore.

[Melee]

Loved it!

I wonder what Belkar will do when he finds out that he was beaten to the punch (heh) by V.

[Absol197]

Simple. Make him a woman. Never be "his" birthday cake anymore.

Didn't we already do something similar to that once?

[Feytalist]

It always brightens my day to log in and find a new strip :smallbiggrin:

I can't be the only one thinking "the belt! the belt! grab the beeeeeelt!"


"I'm a leaf on the wind... watch how I soar!"

Man you had to bring that up... I'm going to be sad now for the rest of the day :/

[Killer Angel]

Belkar shows cuteness and empathy?
...luckily, there's no witness. :smalltongue:

Great comic.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Didn't we already do something similar to that once?

Gender-change? Yes. Gender-change as a way to get out of the Oracle's prophecy while it still being technically true? No.

Honestly it'd match up with all the other prophecies being useless until after the fact, but I'd find it really unsatisfying.

[dtilque]

Why is Belkar still wearing the sandals, though? I would have expected him to take them off by now.

Could it mean that he's no longer a SSGoW?

Note that he's also picked up some armor, at least I assume it's armor. Wonder where he got it. Must be hard to find an XXSmall. All the guards are medium sized.

[Nohar]

I'm beginning to wonder if by any chance our Chaotic Evil Belkar will somehow switch to Chaotic Neutral before his scheduled death. Oh well, he has done so many Evil acts before, it's still a little too soon for me to assume such a thing. Still, seeing him feeling empathy is kind of new (as far as I can remember of course).

Thank you Giant : now Belkar's departure is going to be really painful now that he's not only likable as a comedy gold halfling but also as a likable not-so-completly sociopath :(

(I'm betting Belkar gets killed at the next gate, saving (of all people) Vaarsuvius, allowing the Order to retreat, and get reanimated as a undead by Tsukiko).

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm beginning to wonder if by any chance our Chaotic Evil Belkar will somehow switch to Chaotic Neutral before his scheduled death.

I don't think so. If the Black Dragon or Tarquin taught us anything, it's that love and affection are not exclusive to any alignment. It's possible to have an emotional bond with someone and feel no qualms about killing everyone else.

Still, Belkar having empathy with anything is pretty touching.

[Cerlis]

Its nice that we get a daww moment. but its greater when you realize how angry he was "How am i suppose to feel better!" and then we get the answer.

Not just empathy, not just him learning to care about stuff. but learning he can sustain his happyness through being Kind to something else.

[Ashadar]

Huh. I actually remember someone calling this in a thread that was spawned immediately after the T rex stomped the guards and saved Enor and Ganji. People kept saying that Belkar didn't do it to save anyone, while others noted that Belkar might have been affected by the "It's like fighting your own puppy" comment.

I'm surprised there are so many people here who didn't get the reference. My first impression was, "Huh. That guy was right after all. " . Too bad I don't remember his name so I can give him some kudos. Does anyone remember how that old thread was named?

[Kish]

Gender-change? Yes. Gender-change as a way to get out of the Oracle's prophecy while it still being technically true? No.
The prophecy would not be technically true. Nothing the Oracle said indicated that dying was a euphemism for "stop being male." :smallsigh:

[Hokum]

I thank god for these discussion threads, I really didn't get the reference in the last two panels and felt rather dumb about it.


great comic.

[Timeless Error]

Omigosh.

Belkar is having CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!

[Ingus]

Congratulations to Mr Burlew, you really surprised me (and made fun of me too).
I was expecting the unleash of Belkar with a vulgar display of violence. It has been an hearthwelming moment instead. And it is also lampshaded by Belkar trying to kill... something.

[BlackZaitan]

Except with the total lack of Xykon, this story act have been one hell a story act! What a blast! And there is yet more to come! CAN'T WAIT! GO GIANT! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Why do i got this feeling that Belkar is gonna feeling that Belkar gonna die like next strip?

[Roderick_BR]

All together now: aaaawww...

Seems like Scruffy rolled well his wild empathy check.

[Zorgophlats]

It is someone talking to him - check out panel 6 of strip 783 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html)


It's Roy speaking; Belkar's remembering panel six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html).

OK. I got that. Let me just say what I experienced the first time I read this strip.

Belkar & Scruffy alone. Suddenly, Belkar looks out to the arena and sees a fight going on. But it isn't Roy & Thog.

Me: 'Wait. What? When did Roy and Thog finish? Or, are they showing multiple fights? No that's not right. Somebody is talking to Belkar. I wonder who is there now? Guard, Tarkin, Scruffy learned to talk? I'm so confused.'

Last panel: Belkar & Scruffy are still alone.

I look back at previous panel. 'Oh, I get it. It's a flashback with transposed heads. It's not all that dim. There isn't a colored dialog box. It's in Belkars' head. So, maybe it's Belkar talking to himself and the dialog transposed over? Something doesn't add up, I'm still not getting it.' I looked back to the lizard fight (quickly, I'm on lunch break, can't take the time to read dialog) and I don't find the corresponding panel. Checked the forum. "Roy's talking". Ah. Now it all makes sense.

All I'm saying is, that panel, with an included extraneous dialog bubble, would have been less jarring if it was contained in a thought bubble. I'd have understood at that moment that Belkar was having a flashback. I know that this hasn't been used in this comic before. But it's the first time that no one is narrating it, and thereby including a rectangle dialog box.

No arguments please. It was hard enough just trying to 'get it'.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Huh, I had absolutely no trouble figuring out what was going on. Then again, that scene was on my mind while I was walking home (and I was particularly pleased to see a new update concerning exactly that; thanks, Giant!), so eh.

[Chessrook44]

Silly Belkar. You don't influence cats... Cats CONTROL you.

[i6uuaq]

OK. I got that. Let me just say what I experienced the first time I read this strip.

Belkar & Scruffy alone. Suddenly, Belkar looks out to the arena and sees a fight going on. But it isn't Roy & Thog.

Me: 'Wait. What? When did Roy and Thog finish? Or, are they showing multiple fights? No that's not right. Somebody is talking to Belkar. I wonder who is there now? Guard, Tarkin, Scruffy learned to talk? I'm so confused.'

Last panel: Belkar & Scruffy are still alone.

I look back at previous panel. 'Oh, I get it. It's a flashback with transposed heads. It's not all that dim. There isn't a colored dialog box. It's in Belkars' head. So, maybe it's Belkar talking to himself and the dialog transposed over? Something doesn't add up, I'm still not getting it.' I looked back to the lizard fight (quickly, I'm on lunch break, can't take the time to read dialog) and I don't find the corresponding panel. Checked the forum. "Roy's talking". Ah. Now it all makes sense.

All I'm saying is, that panel, with an included extraneous dialog bubble, would have been less jarring if it was contained in a thought bubble. I'd have understood at that moment that Belkar was having a flashback. I know that this hasn't been used in this comic before. But it's the first time that no one is narrating it, and thereby including a rectangle dialog box.

No arguments please. It was hard enough just trying to 'get it'.

Just to second this, Zorgophlats has pretty much described my thought process on reading the comic the first time around. Except I possibly took longer to figure out what was going on (although I managed to get it before coming to the forums, at least).

I also agree that this mis-communication could be ameliorated by demarcating the panel differently somehow. I don't know if the Giant is prone to making post-publication revisions, but this might be a suitable cause.

Also,

D'AWWWWW. Good job making us feel for Belkar before killing him off. Good story-telling is can be pretty heart-wrenching at times.

[t209]

Yeah, I'm worried about the Lawyers' car too. I hope the Empire doesn't confiscate it...:smalleek:

We are really all crying for Belkar now aren't we? His death strip will be painful to read. :smallfrown: Gonna miss him.

I mean the cat (Lord Shojo's to be exact)! I mispelled it as car.

[pendell]

Watching Belkar reminds me of a story once heard -- I've heard that in some places, the really, really bad criminals, when they're put in life solitary imprisonment, are given a canary. Said criminals will kill hundreds of humans without blinking but the canary is utterly safe, because even they won't kill the canary. That would be evil.

I'm not sure it's a positive development that Belkar has succeeded in character growth to the extent that he is now on a level with the worst of the worst human psychopaths, rather than being death incarnate. Given Word of Rich that Belkar is not long for this world, and given he is almost certainly destined for the chaotic evil afterlife, this spark of goodness will only prove a weakness once there. It increases his chances of becoming a lemure or demon-food, rather than the utterly dark reincarnation of Cyric who could throw down an evil god and take his place, which is the true and proper destiny of Belkar Bitterleaf.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Watching Belkar reminds me of a story once heard -- I've heard that in some places, the really, really bad criminals, when they're put in life solitary imprisonment, are given a canary. Said criminals will kill hundreds of humans without blinking but the canary is utterly safe, because even they won't kill the canary. That would be evil.

Ah, I see you've read I Shall Wear Midnight.

[pendell]

Ah, I see you've read I Shall Wear Midnight.

Yup.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MoonCat]

It sort of amuses me to see the people who were all BELKAR IS UNCHANGED AND so on and so forth catch up to it. Man, I remember when the one just after Scruffy killed that gladiator and Belkar looked him in the eyes and said he would always be there. Firs time I cried to an OoTS strip.


Ah, I see you've read I Shall Wear Midnight.


Yup.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I like it you guys all the better. Although it would have been equally viable to mention Reaper Man, where the concept is first brought up.

[Bluepaw]

Awwww, the jowwy widdle hawfwing wuvs his widdle cat! How cute!

...

OH SHI--

[KillItWithFire]

D'awwwwww. That's cute. It reminds me of my kitty though. She died this past summer. :smallfrown: I miss you Magic.

[pendell]

I like it you guys all the better. Although it would have been equally viable to mention Reaper Man, where the concept is first brought up.

"What hope has the harvest, if not the care of the reaper man?"

Great book. I should read it again.

Yes, I guess I like you too :).



It sort of amuses me to see the people who were all BELKAR IS UNCHANGED AND so on and so forth catch up to it. Man, I remember when the one just after Scruffy killed that gladiator and Belkar looked him in the eyes and said he would always be there. Firs time I cried to an OoTS strip.


My stance is a bit more nuanced.

Has Belkar undergrown character growth and change since the comic began? Absolutely.

Has some of that change been for the better? Certainly.

But ... do these changes add up to an alignment shift?

*That* I am not convinced of. I remember Soon's lecture to Miko. To my mind, an alignment shift is about more than just being able to experience empathy. It's a complete re-thinking of one's approach to life.

So I won't say "Belkar is unchanged". I might even go so far as to say "Belkar is not as chaotic evil as he was". But that doesn't equate to "Belkar is now chaotic neutral or further up the scale". It may just mean that , instead of hitting 99999 kilonazis on the scale, he now only hits 99779 kilonazis on the scale. He may be less evil than he was , but he's still over 9000!!! evil.

I suppose it's possible that Belkar could be redeemed, and make the journey fully off the evil scale. But even though it's technically possible I don't think it's likely in the time he has left. Remember this is the guy who has a demon on both shoulders. That's not something you just shake off without some kind of divine intervention, and we haven't seen that yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MoonCat]

Oh no, he's still CE. But it makes me laugh to hear people who said Belkar had no character development and said we were incredibly gullible, because we KNEW he said he was going to fake character development suddenly go "Holy ****! Belkar's got character development!"

[The Succubus]

"What hope has the harvest, if not the care of the reaper man?"

Great book. I should read it again.

Yes, I guess I like you too :).



Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hmmm, Pratchett may have referenced the idea a couple of times but he didn't create it. I can't remember whether it's from an actual historical figure or whether its from a story that's much older. I'd be interested in finding out though.

[The Pilgrim]

Aaaaaaaaaaawwwwww...

I love how Belkar drops the potion in a plate for the cat to lick.

Mr Scruffy, you may still make a person out of Belkar... well, at least for the few days he has left.

[Garwain]

My first read of this comic page was... meh, ok Belkar grows, I wanted to see linear guild kicking. But then the utter brilliance of this one grows on me.

I must say that when the whole 'Arena' arch started, I had the same 'meh' feeling. As in: "some clichés thrown togheter, Rich is loosing it." But it gets better and better and even better. For me this one is the pinnacle so far. In one strip you get:

- 3 punchlines
- character growth
- aaawwww moment
- tied potion stealing back up
- explained forshadowing
- flashback

and a mix of emotions afterwards:
- wow that allosaurus stunt was more than some random deus ex machina. In fact, it was foreshadowed, but I couldn't see it.
- wow, Belkar is really getting his character development, he is no longer predending.
- damn, why do I see the omen of his approaching death? The eery feeling nags on me. Belkar poor lad, I love your brutallity, and you should probably rot in hell for your mishaps, but please hang in there, pull an impressive last stunt to save the universe, then die.

I really can't express my appreciation for this one enough. Thanks.

[Keeper of Starlight]

Wow, character growth for Belkar. Yeah, he's definitely about to die.


By jumping in front of Mr. Scruffy to save him. Or maybe failing a Spot check.

[Adeptus]

That's adorable!


Awwww, the jowwy widdle hawfwing wuvs his widdle cat! How cute!

...

OH SHI--

:tongue: Perfect!

[The Glyphstone]

My first read of this comic page was... meh, ok Belkar grows, I wanted to see linear guild kicking. But then the utter brilliance of this one grows on me.

I must say that when the whole 'Arena' arch started, I had the same 'meh' feeling. As in: "some clichés thrown togheter, Rich is loosing it." But it gets better and better and even better. For me this one is the pinnacle so far. In one strip you get:

- 3 punchlines
- character growth
- aaawwww moment
- tied potion stealing back up
- explained forshadowing
- flashback

and a mix of emotions afterwards:
- wow that allosaurus stunt was more than some random deus ex machina. In fact, it was foreshadowed, but I couldn't see it.
- wow, Belkar is really getting his character development, he is no longer predending.
- damn, why do I see the omen of his approaching death? The eery feeling nags on me. Belkar poor lad, I love your brutallity, and you should probably rot in hell for your mishaps, but please hang in there, pull an impressive last stunt to save the universe, then die.

I really can't express my appreciation for this one enough. Thanks.

You could also interpret it as an amazingly long-delayed brick joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html).

[Vectner]

I'm diggin' Belkar's arena armor. I think he should keep this look.

[Tundar]

May I just say, regardless of what a complete bastard Belkar is...

D'AAAAAAAAAAWWWWW :smallbiggrin:

Allow me to second that.

[goodyarn]

It's Roy speaking; Belkar's remembering panel six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html).

Yes, and if you go back and re-read that part of the story, this strip turns out to be a lot deeper than it seems.

This strip explains WHY BELKAR SET FREE THE DINOSAUR to break up the fight between Gannji and Enor.

Remember that? It was BELKAR'S IDEA. Did you know why he did that back then? I didn't. Not really.

Now I know.

Cool beans, Giant.

[Absol197]

Allow me to second that.

I think by this point your more 33rd-ing that, or somewhere around there.

[rewinn]

:belkar: "How the HELL am I supposed to make myself feel better if there's no-one to hurt?"

... is a question asked IRL more often than we may like to admit.

By answering the question plausibly and usefully, 807 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) becomes one of those strips that make OOTS literature, comparable perhaps to 651 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) and 669 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

Of course, OOTS is mostly a venture in entertainment, as is all literature that people still read when not compelled to. Working it out so there was a punchline in the final panel, which is obligatory in the art-form, must have taken a bit of craft!

Plus: D'AAAAAAAAWWH!

[leakingpen]

Wait, wait. Belkar is not allowed to have REAL character growth. just the fake kind. (yes, im kidding)

[the_tick_rules]

belkar's evil is fading, oh no

[Lemur Bear]

I love Belkar's moments of revelation. They are made of so much win.

[Almaseti]

Can I just say "awwww" here? That was adorable.

I wonder if this means Enor and Ganji are going to be back later. I kinda hope they are.

[Isis-sama]

As a cat lover, scenes like this make me wonder what's going to happen to Mr. Scruffy once Belkar dies (well, assuming the Giant isn't going to pull out some sort of "whatatwist!" plot point out and have Belkar survive despite the prophecy) or that Mr. Scruffy doesn't die along with Belkar. None of the other OOTS members seem to have showed much affection for the cat (they've either ignored it or seemed mildly irritated at having to care for it) so I hope the others take care of it or find a home for it or something after Belkar dies.

Also, this probably sounds kinda silly, but I wonder how old Mr. Scruffy is? He's got to be at least 2, since I don't think he was a kitten when he was introduced, and a year of in-world time has passed since we first met him . . . it doesn't relate much to anything, but I'm curious.

[ScrapperTBP]

Awww. I love Belkar even more now. Didn't think it was possible. Thanks Giant

[Adeptus]

As a cat lover, scenes like this make me wonder what's going to happen to Mr. Scruffy once Belkar dies (well, assuming the Giant isn't going to pull out some sort of "whatatwist!" plot point out and have Belkar survive despite the prophecy) or that Mr. Scruffy doesn't die along with Belkar. None of the other OOTS members seem to have showed much affection for the cat (they've either ignored it or seemed mildly irritated at having to care for it) so I hope the others take care of it or find a home for it or something after Belkar dies.

Durkon and Roy are both lawful good. I'm sure they'll find a new home for the kitty _if_ Belkar dies. I have a strong suspicion about him being "not long for this word"


I think Belkar and the rest of OotS will end up in the rift, on the planet Blackwing saw in there

[Kish]

Durkon and Roy are both lawful good. I'm sure they'll find a new home for the kitty _if_ Belkar dies. I have a strong suspicion about him being "not long for this word"


I think Belkar and the rest of OotS will end up in the rift, on the planet Blackwing saw in there

Now you explain the part about drawing his last breath ever.

Bear in mind that "you don't need to breathe in the world in the rift" will only fit the bill if he never returns to the primary OotS campaign world.

[dtilque]

Hmmm, Pratchett may have referenced the idea a couple of times but he didn't create it. I can't remember whether it's from an actual historical figure or whether its from a story that's much older. I'd be interested in finding out though.

Pratchett was referencing the Birdman of Alcatraz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stroud).

[J's]

Awwww, the jowwy widdle hawfwing wuvs his widdle cat! How cute!

...

OH SHI--





:tongue: Perfect!
How could you be so callous to rejoice at Bluepaw's death! Let us all take a moment of silence to show respect for the life that was cut short, preventing poor Bluepaw from achieving so many life goals.

[ricorum]

Very cute. It's going to make it even worse when Belkar dies and leaves Mr. Scruffy alone.

[One Skunk Todd]

As a cat lover, scenes like this make me wonder what's going to happen to Mr. Scruffy once Belkar dies

Daigo and Kazumi maybe?

[EmperorSarda]

Why do I feel like Belkar is going to die really soon?

Cause in order for Belkar's death to have any meaningful impact on the readers, Belkar has to experience some growth such as this to make his loss all the more appreciated.

[dtilque]

Note that he's also picked up some armor, at least I assume it's armor. Wonder where he got it. Must be hard to find an XXSmall. All the guards are medium sized.

Answering my own question: it's his gladiator armor. Now that he's found Haley's stuff, which presumably includes his own armor, I will assume he'll change to that.

But will he keep the sandals? He can't be a shoeless god of war with sandals. But then he's changing, so maybe he's no longer a SSGoW and he'll keep them. Evidence of character growth. Like Haley's hair cut...

[H Birchgrove]

Great strip. :)

[Isis-sama]

Now you explain the part about drawing his last breath ever.

Bear in mind that "you don't need to breathe in the world in the rift" will only fit the bill if he never returns to the primary OotS campaign world.

Well, that all came down to the prophecy from the Oracle . . . who erases the memory of everyone who comes to get predictions from him about their time spent with him except the prediction itself because he doesn't want anything else he says to influence the flow of time. Now, Roy interacted with the Oracle when he was dead, and after he left didn't have his memory wiped of the time spent with him because apparently the Oracle's spell doesn't work on spirits and the Oracle was confident that it would work and didn't bother to look ahead and find out so he could alter it.

Practically, this affects things in that when the Order of the Stick couldn't find the Gate in the middle of the desert, Elan suggested that they could go back and ask the Oracle to find the location, but Roy shoots down that idea due to the fact that Belkar stabbed him and he still might be upset about it - information he wouldn't have had if his memory hadn't been successfully wiped. Assuming that, if Roy didn't know about Belkar's attack on the Oracle, the Order of the Stick would have gone back to ask the Oracle about the location of the Gate instead of asking around the Western Continent and eventually finding Tarquin, then that means that events have indeed been altered due to information from (or about, anyway) the Oracle and the timeline has been changed, meaning Belkar's death *may* not happen as the Oracle prophesied it, depending on how it occurred.

It's a longshot, but it just seems to me like's it's too much setting up for something to have Roy remember his session with the Oracle and not do anything with it, especially since it's only good for that one time. And I don't think giving Roy some extra information on the Oracle is reason enough to do it. I don't know though.

[Grue Bait]

Great job Giant! Hilarious as always!

[jidasfire]

Now you explain the part about drawing his last breath ever.

Bear in mind that "you don't need to breathe in the world in the rift" will only fit the bill if he never returns to the primary OotS campaign world.

Ooh, ooh, I have an idea for this, because I kind of agree with the theory. My suspicion is that if the Order is pulled into the rift, all it will do is buy Belkar more time. Assuming time flows differently in there, Belkar could be around pretty much until the end of the series and live much longer than seven weeks. Then he can die as prophesied but not be gone for the last book or two of the series, where his humor will no doubt be needed.

[The Glyphstone]

Answering my own question: it's his gladiator armor. Now that he's found Haley's stuff, which presumably includes his own armor, I will assume he'll change to that.

But will he keep the sandals? He can't be a shoeless god of war with sandals. But then he's changing, so maybe he's no longer a SSGoW and he'll keep them. Evidence of character growth. Like Haley's hair cut...

He'll become a Sexy Sandaled God Of War instead, preserving the abbreviation.

[Acora]

I admit it. I dawwwwed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He'll become a Sexy Sandaled God Of War instead, preserving the abbreviation.

I was gonna say that!

Or maybe he'll become a Swords and Sandals God of War.

[rewinn]

Daigo and Kazumi maybe?My guess: V was already taking care of Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html). For a friend an acquaintance.

Imagine the hijicks if V ever reconciles with K; two kids and two animals that are constantly squabbling!

[WickedWizard17]

Honestly it'd match up with all the other prophecies being useless until after the fact, but I'd find it really unsatisfying.

All the Oracle's prophecies HAVE been totally obscure and he didn't really mean what he said, so there's hope for our cat-loving little murderer yet!

[Toxinthegreat]

Great comic Giant! Probably oversaid but it's great that we have had fast updates as of late! :smallsmile:

[Gusion]

Well, that all came down to the prophecy from the Oracle . . .

Who, of course, could have just been lying to Belkar et al. They weren't exactly best of friends.

[Canisius]

Rich, you do broad comedy and inside jokes really well, but that almost makes folks overlook your writing skills in the turn of a phrase:

"How the HELL am I supposed to make myself feel better if there's no one to hurt?"

Golden!

Still rooting for you to figure out some way to keep Belkar alive despite the oracle's prophesy. One of the things I love about this forum is folks trying to figure that out themselves.. but "last breath" is pretty final, unless he grows gills. =)

[Kareasint]

I am starting to wonder how angry Haley will be when she discovers that everyone has been shifting though her treasure.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I am starting to wonder how angry Haley will be when she discovers that everyone has been shifting though her treasure.

Actually, I don't think she'll be as upset about it now as she would have been before.

[Canisius]

- and Belkar's very sincere little smile in panel 9 is so satisfying.

[rewinn]

Actually, I don't think she'll be as upset about it now as she would have been before.

For one thing, she doesn't need the money to ransom her daddy anymore.

But she MAY have to take a Temper Check. She IS a redhead after all!

[Dr. Magic]

As a person who is more a 'comic fan' and less a 'D&D fan', it was very jarring to read the second-to-last panel - the way his head is in the bottom of the frame, and the tail of the bubble goes to the left, that is clear comic-speak for "person on the left is talking" - the tail should be pointing down toward his head. I love this comic dearly, but that's simply a lettering error.

[MoonCat]

As a person who is more a 'comic fan' and less a 'D&D fan', it was very jarring to read the second-to-last panel - the way his head is in the bottom of the frame, and the tail of the bubble goes to the left, that is clear comic-speak for "person on the left is talking" - the tail should be pointing down toward his head. I love this comic dearly, but that's simply a lettering error.

Remember, he was standing on a box at the time.

[Tsuzurao]

Silly Belkar. You don't influence cats... Cats CONTROL you.

Naturally. Why do you think felines get exclusive access to Handle Humanoid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)?

[ORione]

As a person who is more a 'comic fan' and less a 'D&D fan', it was very jarring to read the second-to-last panel - the way his head is in the bottom of the frame, and the tail of the bubble goes to the left, that is clear comic-speak for "person on the left is talking" - the tail should be pointing down toward his head. I love this comic dearly, but that's simply a lettering error.

Roy's talking. He's to the left of Belkar.

[jere7my]

As a person who is more a 'comic fan' and less a 'D&D fan', it was very jarring to read the second-to-last panel - the way his head is in the bottom of the frame, and the tail of the bubble goes to the left, that is clear comic-speak for "person on the left is talking" - the tail should be pointing down toward his head. I love this comic dearly, but that's simply a lettering error.

I believe you missed that it is a flashback to Roy talking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html), not Belkar.

[jmucchiello]

Panel 9! Belkar is smiling because his cat is healthy. Awesome.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well.. seeing Belkar all caring and nice, we can safely assume the Prophecy came true and the evilish murdering Belkar did die. So.. may the cat-caring murdering Belkar live, please?


What if Belkar's death is not of the body but of his murderous spirit? Prophecy can mean so many things.


The prophecy would not be technically true. Nothing the Oracle said indicated that dying was a euphemism for "stop being male." :smallsigh:


Durkon and Roy are both lawful good. I'm sure they'll find a new home for the kitty _if_ Belkar dies. I have a strong suspicion about him being "not long for this word"



All the Oracle's prophecies HAVE been totally obscure and he didn't really mean what he said, so there's hope for our cat-loving little murderer yet!


Who, of course, could have just been lying to Belkar et al. They weren't exactly best of friends.

Gender swapped Belkar to Sexy Shoeless (or Sandled) Goddess of War is completely viable, but not needed as Old Belkar died while bretahing his last breath ever, New Belkar was born, the death happened, he had no birthday cake, he took his last breath, he didn't finance his IRA, and being short he has never been long for this world.

In addition, the Oracle lied... he always lies. If he didn't lie then Tiamet, who gives the Oracle the prophecies, would never have been calling to complain about Familicide as the Oracle would have known about V's getting the power (which came from him making a deal with devils and was when he said 3, not 4, words to no one at the wrong time for all the right reasons, which is contradictory to the supposed prophecy) and would have known what happened when he told Mama Black how and where to find V. If he didn't lie his answer to Belkar would have been, "No, you won't kill any of them... even your attempt to kill me will end in you getting harmed instead and I'll just get to mock you." and he'd never have had to have backpedaled like he did when Belkar confronted him about his lie. Ginkgo Bilbao did nothing for Blackwing. Haley got her voice back from a Trojan Horse coming a calling not a Gift Horse. He'd have said "None of the Above, try Azure City instead Dimwit" to Roy's convoluted question of which gate was next. And he'd have said "In the Gate Room of the Dungeon of Dorukan" to Roy's previous question of where to find Xykon. The Oracle is a charlatan, a jerk, a Kobold, and a crook... and were it not for the mind wipe spell everyone would have known this for a long time. He tries to legitimatize his answers, but that is a classic way liars and crooks claim they can't be blamed for you not understanding the way their vagueness or turns of phrase are meant to be taken.

Stop dwelling on Old Belkar's death, it happened, it was awesome, it is over, enjoy the new Belkar.



Loved it!

I wonder what Belkar will do when he finds out that he was beaten to the punch (heh) by V.

Actually, Yukyuk is still alive, he and V could return, or even team up ala Elan and Thog, so they can return and Belkar could then kill Yukyuk.

[rbetieh]

I now have a new, un-serious, and completely untrue theory:

If you bring up Deus-Ex-Machina in a strip discussion thread when it is highly debatable that such a construct exists in the strip, the strip gods will provide a new strip so as to calm the Deus-Ex crowd.

Therefore, I submit my totally unreasonable argument that the Bowl found by Belkar used to dispense healing potion for Mr. Scruffy is clearly the color of clay which means it is worthless and absolutely should not have been in Haleys bag of holding, as she would not waste her time saving a worthless bowl. This bowl allows the cat to drink a potion which he would not otherwise have had access too, preventing the cats Tetanus death as was pre-ordained. I hereby call Deus-Ex-Machina and am really really mad about it! :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious::smallfurious:




Seriously, enjoyed the strip though.

[Sethala]

OK. I got that. Let me just say what I experienced the first time I read this strip.

Belkar & Scruffy alone. Suddenly, Belkar looks out to the arena and sees a fight going on. But it isn't Roy & Thog.

Me: 'Wait. What? When did Roy and Thog finish? Or, are they showing multiple fights? No that's not right. Somebody is talking to Belkar. I wonder who is there now? Guard, Tarkin, Scruffy learned to talk? I'm so confused.'

Last panel: Belkar & Scruffy are still alone.

I look back at previous panel. 'Oh, I get it. It's a flashback with transposed heads. It's not all that dim. There isn't a colored dialog box. It's in Belkars' head. So, maybe it's Belkar talking to himself and the dialog transposed over? Something doesn't add up, I'm still not getting it.' I looked back to the lizard fight (quickly, I'm on lunch break, can't take the time to read dialog) and I don't find the corresponding panel. Checked the forum. "Roy's talking". Ah. Now it all makes sense.

All I'm saying is, that panel, with an included extraneous dialog bubble, would have been less jarring if it was contained in a thought bubble. I'd have understood at that moment that Belkar was having a flashback. I know that this hasn't been used in this comic before. But it's the first time that no one is narrating it, and thereby including a rectangle dialog box.

No arguments please. It was hard enough just trying to 'get it'.

Ah, I understand now. I do think it might have been better if it was "zoomed out" a bit to at least show some of Roy when he was talking, instead of being off-panel.

However, it might be worth noting that the flashback is to something only 24 strips ago. To us, its' a long time, since the original strip came out in March, but I imagine that the flashback will be much easier to understand when readers can read through all the strips at once, either through archives on the site or in the next book, since it's likely that the reader will see both strips with only a short timespan between them.

[brionl]

Guys, Belkar is going to die.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I realy thought the big moment was when belkar realized he couldn't make himself feel better by hurting/killing someone else, but he could help someone else to feel better. The way he smiled when he saw mr. scruffy lapping up the healing potion was a good touch.

As to ripping off haley, didn't she steal one of belkar's healing potions way way back in the first dungeon they were in to heal elan? So they're finally even.

BTW, I'd LMAO if belkar came across the stone haley and copped a feel while no one was looking.:smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Strangelove]

Guys, Belkar is going to die.

Yeah, but maybe now he might go to a decent afterlife instead of some layer of hell.

I'm not a D&D player but I still like this series, so I don;t know a lot about afterlife in D&D but if someone makes a sincere last minute conversion or change of aliment does that affect their afterlife? I mean, we know some religions let you be a prick all your life, make a last minute conversion and go to a good afterlife. Does D&D work like that? I ask as someone not familiar with the D&D universe, not as anyone trying to insult anyone's religion.

[Absol197]

In addition, the Oracle lied... he always lies. ... *snip* ...

*Sigh*, do I have to get this back out again? I even think you were the same person I wrote this up for in the first place, okay, here we go:

Analysis of the Truth of the Oracle's Powers, by Absol197:
Shoelessgdowar, You obviously want to doubt the oracle's ability to see the future. Fair enough, a person should always be suspicious of someone claiming to have such a power. So, in the interest of looking at this fairly, let's look at everything we've seen him do that suggests he can see the future.

For this analysis, I'll be using the following categories:

Prophecy: The "on the record" predictions that have a green speech bubble. These will be put into the following categories:
True: The prophecy was unambiguously true, and happened as predicted, or the oracle gave precisely accurate current information.
Ambiguously True: If translated the proper way, the oracle was correct, but there could be alternate translations that contradict.
Not Yet Proven: The predicted event has not yet come to pass, and so we can't prove whether or not he was correct.
False: The oracle was obviously wrong.

Prediction: Things he says that predict future events without being a prophecy (as described above). Predictions follow the same categories as prophecies.

Uncanny Knowledge: Evidence that the oracle knows things he was not present for, or things that would otherwise be very difficult for him to know without his stated abilities.

Uncanny Foresight: Things the oracle has done or preparations we've seen him make that indicate foreknowledge of what's coming, or otherwise hard to explain without his supposed ability.

Okay, here we go, chronologically:

Start of Darkness
Prediction: The Oracle calls Eugene, "Ghost Dad!" and tells him that it will be, "funny later" when Eugene asks what he means. Later, Eugene does indeed appear as a ghost to one of his children (namely, Roy). A true prediction.
Prophecy: Eugene Greenhilt asks him for the name of the person who killed his master. the Oracle answers, "Xykon." We see in Start of Darkness that, yes, Xykon kills Fryon. This prophecy is true. Assuming the oracle just said the name of a random person (or made up a name to tell Eugene), it is an enormous coincidence that this is both the name of an actual person, and that that person was who really killed Fryon.
Uncanny Knowledge:The Oracle tells Eugene that they are in a, "scene [he doesn't] remember in a narrative framed by s flash-forward in a prequel book." All of this is true. However, this could be argued to simply be medium-awareness, which most OotS characters have to sime degree.
Prediction: The Oracle predicts that he is getting to second base with his date the night that Eugene visits. As we never see the date, so we can't be certain if he does get to second base (or even what second base means for reptiles), this prediction is not yet proven.

On the Origins of PCs
The Oracle doesn’t make an appearance.

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
The oracle doesn't make an appearance.

No Cure for the Paladin Blues
the oracle doesn't make an appearance.

War and XPs
Prophecy: Durkon says that one of the oracle's prophecies was how they knew where to find Xykon. Since they found Xykon, this prophecy is true.
Prediction: The oracle intimates that Belkar doesn't have long to live. Since Belkar is not dead yet, and the stated amount of time has not passed, this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: We learn that Roy asked, "Where is Xykon?" and was answered, "in his throne room." Since the room where Xykon was hanging out during the first book was a room, with a throne, and he took it over from Dorukan, this is a correct prediction (if an unhelpful one). True.
Uncanny Knowledge: the oracle can understand Haley. He says it's because he can see the future to when her cryptograms are translated. Either way, this is hard to explain without some supernatural ability that is not normally available to either kobolds (his race) or experts (his class).
Prediction: The oracle tells Roy and Elan that they are "running late for a pair of family reunions." The very next arc is them fighting Nale (a part of Elan's family), who has kidnapped Julia (a part of Roy's family). A true prediction.
Prophecy: Durkon asks how he will be returning to the Dwarven homelands. The answer: "Posthumously." As Durkon has not yet died nor returned home, this prophecy is not yet proven. (although, even if he get's disintegrated and his body can't be returned as Durkon himself expects, his soul can still return like when Roy wanders around as a spirit, which would be a posthumous return).
Prophecy: Elan asks if the story will have a happy ending. The answer is "Yes, for you at least." The story is not over, so this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: V asks how she will achieve ultimate arcane power. "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The Giant gives a good explanation of this in author commentary in Don't Split the Party: the four words are "I...I must succeed." V says them to herself, the right time is when the IFCC is offering, and the wrong reasons are to prove to herself that magic is all-powerful. The giant considers this a fulfilled prophecy, and I think he would know. Ambiguously True.
Prophecy: Haley asks how she can get her voice back. "Don't look the gift horse in the mouth." Essentially, when something too good to be true happens, don't analyse it. "Elan" asking her out seems to good to be true, she doesn't analyze it, and it leads to her getting her voice back. Prophecy is indirect but arguable. Ambiguously true.
Prophecy: Belkar asks if he will cause the death of any of a number of people. "Yes." While not a specific answer to the question, it is a legitimate answer, because Belkar doesn't ask about each person individually, he asks about someone from the group as a whole. He killed the oracle. Prophecy is true (and, I at least think several of the oracle's other explanations would work, too).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle seems to hint that he knows Xykon and crew are going to Azure City first, by suggesting Roy alter his question, along with the constant cuts to Xykon and henchmen stating they're going to Azure City. This is debatable.
Prophecy: Roy asks whether Xykon will be close to Girard's or Kraagor's gate first, chronologically. Since Xykon has gone to neither yet, this is not yet proven. However, since we know he and Redcloak currently plan to go to Girard's Gate next, it is looking as though it will be true.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can understand a raven. He's not a druid, so he doesn't have speak with animals, so something else must be going on.
Prophecy: Backwing asks a question. We can't know what he asks, as we don't get a translation, so we can't put the answer, "Ginko balboa," into any context. This prophecy can't be proven true or false.

Don't Split the Party
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows how Roy died in great detail, including that he fell off a zombie dragon, that Belkar gave Roy the ring of jumping +20, and that Belkar made a bet with the thief about whether or not Roy would jump on the dragon.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Celia is dating Roy, and intimates that he knows that Roy also died because he couldn't break her talisman, and that she doesn't know about what humans can do (he also implies that he knows what uh, activities they've been doing on the bed...).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Miko is dead (which no one else in the order knows), and that she is a paladin. He knows about her beliefs that the Order was working with Xykon; he knows that they rallied to protect Belkar in Shojo's throne room; he knows she was imprisoned; he knows that she died when the castle exploded (and that the castle exploded at all).
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to set up a village so that it would set off Belkar's mark of justice once Belkar came back (which, of course, implies he knew Belkar would come back), and he knew Belkar would at least damage him, because he named the Village "Lickmyorangeballshalfling" as f*** you to Belkar. This leads to:
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knew that Belkar had a mark of justice on him, and that it would trigger if he dealt lethal damage within the bounds of a village.
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to pay his lizardfolk friends to resurrect him just after Haley and company had left, knowing he would be dead. From the way they talk, he's done this quite a few times before.
Prediction: The oracle predicts that he will die again at a specific future date. As we will likely never see this happen, it is not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can perceive incorporeal creatures, as evinced by the fact he can see Roy.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle implies he knows about Roy's mother's spirit's sexual adventures in the afterlife.
Prediction: The oracle repeats the prediction that Belkar will die soon. Once again, not yet proven.
Prophecy: The oracle makes his prediction about Belkar into a prophecy. Belkar's still not dead, so it's still not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle goes beyond the standard medium-awareness of the Order of the Stick characters and shows awareness of the readers.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle tells Roy he knows about the ancient black dragon's approach.
Prediction: Not quite a prediction, but the oracle tells Roy he will forget everything but his prophecy once he leaves. Since Roy remembers, this is false.
Uncanny Foresight: the oracle knew to keep a wand of dismissal on himself to banish Roy when he wouldn't leave.
Prophecy: The oracle tells the ancient black dragon that it was Vaarsuvius that killed her son. Since we know this is the case, this is true.

Current Arc
The oracle has not made an appearance.

Okay, so here are the results:


True: Prophecies: 5; Predictions: 2
Ambiguously True: Prophecies: 2; Predictions: 0
Not Yet Proven: Prophecies: 4; Predictions: 4
False: Prophecies: 0; Predictions: 1
Can't Be Proven: Prophecies: 1; Predictions: 0
Uncanny Knowledge: 12 instances
Uncanny Foresight: 3 instances

Conclusion:
Because of the large body of evidence, outside of word-twisting prophecies, that suggests the oracle at least has some sort of extraordinary senses, I would conclude that he can indeed see the future. You may point to the instance of being wrong about Roy forgetting as evidence that he can't, but that would be an incorrect assumption. The oracle is mortal, and can make mistakes, just like any of us. Being wrong once doesn't negate all the times he's been right.

As far as this debate goes, you would need to provide reasonable explanations to the majority of these instances that indicate how the oracle could have known what he knows if you want to convincingly argue that he can't actually see the future.

[SatyreIkon]

I'm not one for strange cutesy noises, but ... AWWWWW! That was sweet :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

Yeah, but maybe now he might go to a decent afterlife instead of some layer of hell.

I'm not a D&D player but I still like this series, so I don;t know a lot about afterlife in D&D but if someone makes a sincere last minute conversion or change of aliment does that affect their afterlife? I mean, we know some religions let you be a prick all your life, make a last minute conversion and go to a good afterlife. Does D&D work like that? I ask as someone not familiar with the D&D universe, not as anyone trying to insult anyone's religion.

Based on what we saw of Roy: No, you are judged according to your entire (adult) life, not just the moment you die.

[Icedaemon]

Meh. This all seems too obvious a plot path. Compared to the rest of the Empire of Blood storylines, this immediate-pre-death-development of Belkar is severely lacking. Hopefully, there will be some interesting twist in it, but I am beginning to doubt that.

[sims796]

Not bad, not bad. I don't mind the reasoning behind his action. He's still a murderous, psychopathic jack-ass, but he has standards. Standards that doesn't stop him from being a murderous, psychopathic jack-ass.

[sims796]

Yeah, but maybe now he might go to a decent afterlife instead of some layer of hell.

I'm not a D&D player but I still like this series, so I don;t know a lot about afterlife in D&D but if someone makes a sincere last minute conversion or change of aliment does that affect their afterlife? I mean, we know some religions let you be a prick all your life, make a last minute conversion and go to a good afterlife. Does D&D work like that? I ask as someone not familiar with the D&D universe, not as anyone trying to insult anyone's religion.

I'm damn sure no D&D expert, but I'd have to say no. At trhe very least, that isn't how it seems to work in this comic. Speciffically, if you're a murderous prick for most of your life, then developing a concious last minute won't erase the lifetime of prickitude.

[pendell]

Meh. This all seems too obvious a plot path. Compared to the rest of the Empire of Blood storylines, this immediate-pre-death-development of Belkar is severely lacking. Hopefully, there will be some interesting twist in it, but I am beginning to doubt that.

Count me in the camp that thinks "What a cheap , sentimental manipulation of our emotions so some of us actually feel *SORROW* when the little psychopath finally gets what's coming to him."

I begrudge redemption to no character, but I don't think this is redemption. Realistically, ridding the world of Belkar Bitterleaf will on the whole make the world a less evil place. If we can also get rid of Tarquin or the Linear Guild at the same time, well, that's a bonus.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sims796]

Count me in the camp that thinks "What a cheap , sentimental manipulation of our emotions so some of us actually feel *SORROW* when the little psychopath finally gets what's coming to him."

I begrudge redemption to no character, but I don't think this is redemption. Realistically, ridding the world of Belkar Bitterleaf will on the whole make the world a less evil place. If we can also get rid of Tarquin or the Linear Guild at the same time, well, that's a bonus.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Agreed. Granted, that's why I like Belkar (and why I hate Tarquin), but I don't wanna start seeing Belkar go all mushy on me. I wanna see him kicking ass for no other reason than to screw with people, up unto the day he dies.

[Gusion]

Regarding the afterlife:

Just because the LG afterlife looked at Roy's entire life doesn't mean that the others (e.g. CN) are so picky. Regardless, remember Roy's defense when hanging with Belkar was that he was "saving him" - so Belkar is a lot less evil than he would have been without Roy's intervention (there was even a chart) long before kitty entered into the picture.

I don't think we should be worried about Belkar that much. So he dies. Big deal. It just means the party has to spend 5 or 10 thousand gold to bring him back depending on the spell required. Resurrection is a level 7 spell - but we already know those aren't a problem. Just so long as a tiny bit of his body remains.

So don't sweat his death.

[hamishspence]

The Oracle said "last breath, ever, before the end of the year".

So, he's not getting resurrected after that point.

[The Succubus]

The Oracle said "last breath, ever, before the end of the year".

So, he's not getting resurrected after that point.

I have a question.

Do you think that when Belkar does eventually snuff it, will the forum shed more tears for the loss of the character, or more for the loss of the debate about how he's going to croak?

[CoffeeIncluded]

The Oracle said "last breath, ever, before the end of the year".

So, he's not getting resurrected after that point.

Like I said, right now I'm thinking Belkar gets killed by the Snarl while protecting Mr. Scruffy from it.

[Scrynor]

I for one resent the comments that this is just a cheap ploy to make us feel remorse when Belkar kicks it. Many of us were going to feel much remorse when he kicks it regardless.

We can't all be the hero you know. Sometimes a self-serving bada$$ is the order of the hour. There's a reason why the original Star Wars rock and the prequels suck - only Jedi? Lame. You need Han Solo for contrast (and no, I'm not saying Han Solo is evil. Relax. It's just like, a metaphor or something).

[MoonCat]

Meh. This all seems too obvious a plot path. Compared to the rest of the Empire of Blood storylines, this immediate-pre-death-development of Belkar is severely lacking. Hopefully, there will be some interesting twist in it, but I am beginning to doubt that.

Just because some folks haven't caught it until now doesn't mean it didn't happen before. Belkar's been developing since the vision, and even before then you could see the bond he had with Mr. Scruffy. Go look back with your new knowledge of Belkar and you'll quickly see this is not new material.


Count me in the camp that thinks "What a cheap , sentimental manipulation of our emotions so some of us actually feel *SORROW* when the little psychopath finally gets what's coming to him."

I begrudge redemption to no character, but I don't think this is redemption. Realistically, ridding the world of Belkar Bitterleaf will on the whole make the world a less evil place. If we can also get rid of Tarquin or the Linear Guild at the same time, well, that's a bonus.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I get the feeling you're joking, but I'm not sure. Care to verify?

[ThePhantasm]

Note that Belkar asks how he is supposed to make himself feel better if there is no one to hurt. The then helps Scruffy and seems to feel better (smiling).

I also don't think this character development is forced. I think it has been happened every since Belkar's mark of justice dream, and people have been saying his development is fake, and now they are being confronted with the fact that no, it is real development. So they think this is an on-the-spot emotional manipulation. But this really has been building up for awhile.

[Grue Bait]

I never thought I'd say this, but this was actually a heartwarming moment. though I still would have liked to see Mr. Scruffy get another kobold head cat box

[pendell]

I get the feeling you're joking, but I'm not sure. Care to verify?


I wasn't, actually. This is the opposite of a kick the puppy moment, when the bad guy establishes how tremendously EEEVOL he is by doing something outrageously dastardly. By showing Belkar doing something nice for a small, cuddly creature the author is obviously sending the signal "See, Belkar isn't quite as bad as all that. Feel sympathy for him!"

I may just be crotchety but I smell a spot of emotional manipulation. And the only reason I can see for making Belkar somewhat sympathetic is to set us up to feel bad when Rich drops an anvil on him at some point in this arc.

Mind, I don't mind my emotions being manipulated in entertainment. That's one reason we're entertained, after all. But if it's so transparent even dumb ol' Brian P. recognizes it as a ploy, it's gotta be pretty cheap. :)

Of course, this isn't bad storytelling, as Rich has established Belkar's character change and his empathy for Scruffy over the course of about a hundered strips at this point. So it's well-established. But I haven't forgotten that Belkar is a cold-blooded murderer many times over. He killed a merchant gnome, he killed the oracle, he kills and humiliates his enemies for fun.

Given such a history, it takes more than momentary kindness to an animal companion to get me to revise my opinion of him.

ETA: I think the mods are getting set to issue an infraction to anyone who links TV tropes and add "Deus Ex Machina" to the banned words list, but this is simply to apropos to my point not to put in.

Pet The Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PetTheDog)



"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new. Every now and then, a little victim's spared... because she smiled, cos he's got freckles, cos they begged. And that's how you live with yourself, that's how you slaughter millions, because once in a while, on a whim, if the wind's in the right direction, you happen to be kind."
— The Doctor (giving us the straight dope), Doctor Who

This term was coined by cynical screenwriters, basically meaning: show the nasty old crank petting a dog, and you show the audience, aw shucks, he's all right after all. Often used to demonstrate that a [deleted for forum rules] is really a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, or, if more limited, that the character is goal oriented rather than sadistic. If used as an Establishing Character Moment then you skip right past the [deleted] phase. The term "Save the cat" is an alternative.

Note that the pet always survives thanks to this treatment.

A kitten is frequently substituted, especially in anime. No one who likes cats is totally evil, and no one who is mean to them is actually good.

In Western countries, owning an adult cat as a pet is a sign of utter evil. Petting the cat here is a sign of planning to take over the world.

Of course, this doesn't mean specifically petting a cute animal, but it is any sign of nobility within a morally ambiguous character.


Now, tell me this isn't exactly what's happening in this strip.

Belkar isn't a morally ambiguous character. On a kilonazi scale, he's probably one of the most evil characters in OOTSverse, differing from Xykon in degree of power rather than character.

So why would you introduce a note of sympathy to such a character ...?

What other reason could there be but to make his eventual death something to make the audience sad, rather than stand up and cheer?

Won't work on me. I've made my save vs. trope roll. :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palthera]

I wasn't, actually. This is the opposite of a kick the puppy moment, when the bad guy establishes how tremendously EEEVOL he is by doing something outrageously dastardly. By showing Belkar doing something nice for a small, cuddly creature the author is obviously sending the signal "See, Belkar isn't quite as bad as all that. Feel sympathy for him!"

I may just be crotchety but I smell a spot of emotional manipulation. And the only reason I can see for making Belkar somewhat sympathetic is to set us up to feel bad when Rich drops an anvil on him at some point in this arc.

Mind, I don't mind my emotions being manipulated in entertainment. That's one reason we're entertained, after all. But if it's so transparent even dumb ol' Brian P. recognizes it as a ploy, it's gotta be pretty cheap. :)

Of course, this isn't bad storytelling, as Rich has established Belkar's character change and his empathy for Scruffy over the course of about a hundered strips at this point. So it's well-established. But I haven't forgotten that Belkar is a cold-blooded murderer many times over. He killed a merchant gnome, he killed the oracle, he kills and humiliates his enemies for fun.

Given such a history, it takes more than momentary kindness to an animal companion to get me to revise my opinion of him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Or maybe... it's not going to be something to make us feel sympathy for Belkar when he dies, and it's really just a continuing development. It may seem like an obvious ploy to you, but we know how often everyone's "obvious ploys" suggestions are wrong.

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

D'awwwwww. That's cute. It reminds me of my kitty though. She died this past summer. :smallfrown: I miss you Magic.

you too? I lost my Mira on May 29

[Wanda V'Orcus]

I am starting to wonder how angry Haley will be when she discovers that everyone has been sifting though her treasure.

She doesn't seem to mind when :elan: does it...

:smallwink:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Gilphon]

Given such a history, it takes more than momentary kindness to an animal companion to get me to revise my opinion of him.


To be fair, what we're seeing here is more than that. It's not just establishing an emotional bond to another living being, it's using that bond as a reference point to understand the bonds between others, and then using this newfound understanding as motivation to help others.

[pendell]

To be fair, what we're seeing here is more than that. It's not just establishing an emotional bond to another living being, it's using that bond as a reference point to understand the bonds between others, and then using this newfound understanding as motivation to help others.

I concede the point; you are correct.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ORione]

*Sigh*, do I have to get this back out again? I even think you were the same person I wrote this up for in the first place, okay, here we go:

Analysis of the Truth of the Oracle's Powers, by Absol197:
Shoelessgdowar, You obviously want to doubt the oracle's ability to see the future. Fair enough, a person should always be suspicious of someone claiming to have such a power. So, in the interest of looking at this fairly, let's look at everything we've seen him do that suggests he can see the future.

For this analysis, I'll be using the following categories:

Prophecy: The "on the record" predictions that have a green speech bubble. These will be put into the following categories:
True: The prophecy was unambiguously true, and happened as predicted, or the oracle gave precisely accurate current information.
Ambiguously True: If translated the proper way, the oracle was correct, but there could be alternate translations that contradict.
Not Yet Proven: The predicted event has not yet come to pass, and so we can't prove whether or not he was correct.
False: The oracle was obviously wrong.

Prediction: Things he says that predict future events without being a prophecy (as described above). Predictions follow the same categories as prophecies.

Uncanny Knowledge: Evidence that the oracle knows things he was not present for, or things that would otherwise be very difficult for him to know without his stated abilities.

Uncanny Foresight: Things the oracle has done or preparations we've seen him make that indicate foreknowledge of what's coming, or otherwise hard to explain without his supposed ability.

Okay, here we go, chronologically:

Start of Darkness
Prediction: The Oracle calls Eugene, "Ghost Dad!" and tells him that it will be, "funny later" when Eugene asks what he means. Later, Eugene does indeed appear as a ghost to one of his children (namely, Roy). A true prediction.
Prophecy: Eugene Greenhilt asks him for the name of the person who killed his master. the Oracle answers, "Xykon." We see in Start of Darkness that, yes, Xykon kills Fryon. This prophecy is true. Assuming the oracle just said the name of a random person (or made up a name to tell Eugene), it is an enormous coincidence that this is both the name of an actual person, and that that person was who really killed Fryon.
Uncanny Knowledge:The Oracle tells Eugene that they are in a, "scene [he doesn't] remember in a narrative framed by s flash-forward in a prequel book." All of this is true. However, this could be argued to simply be medium-awareness, which most OotS characters have to sime degree.
Prediction: The Oracle predicts that he is getting to second base with his date the night that Eugene visits. As we never see the date, so we can't be certain if he does get to second base (or even what second base means for reptiles), this prediction is not yet proven.

On the Origins of PCs
The Oracle doesn’t make an appearance.

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
The oracle doesn't make an appearance.

No Cure for the Paladin Blues
the oracle doesn't make an appearance.

War and XPs
Prophecy: Durkon says that one of the oracle's prophecies was how they knew where to find Xykon. Since they found Xykon, this prophecy is true.
Prediction: The oracle intimates that Belkar doesn't have long to live. Since Belkar is not dead yet, and the stated amount of time has not passed, this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: We learn that Roy asked, "Where is Xykon?" and was answered, "in his throne room." Since the room where Xykon was hanging out during the first book was a room, with a throne, and he took it over from Dorukan, this is a correct prediction (if an unhelpful one). True.
Uncanny Knowledge: the oracle can understand Haley. He says it's because he can see the future to when her cryptograms are translated. Either way, this is hard to explain without some supernatural ability that is not normally available to either kobolds (his race) or experts (his class).
Prediction: The oracle tells Roy and Elan that they are "running late for a pair of family reunions." The very next arc is them fighting Nale (a part of Elan's family), who has kidnapped Julia (a part of Roy's family). A true prediction.
Prophecy: Durkon asks how he will be returning to the Dwarven homelands. The answer: "Posthumously." As Durkon has not yet died nor returned home, this prophecy is not yet proven. (although, even if he get's disintegrated and his body can't be returned as Durkon himself expects, his soul can still return like when Roy wanders around as a spirit, which would be a posthumous return).
Prophecy: Elan asks if the story will have a happy ending. The answer is "Yes, for you at least." The story is not over, so this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: V asks how she will achieve ultimate arcane power. "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The Giant gives a good explanation of this in author commentary in Don't Split the Party: the four words are "I...I must succeed." V says them to herself, the right time is when the IFCC is offering, and the wrong reasons are to prove to herself that magic is all-powerful. The giant considers this a fulfilled prophecy, and I think he would know. Ambiguously True.
Prophecy: Haley asks how she can get her voice back. "Don't look the gift horse in the mouth." Essentially, when something too good to be true happens, don't analyse it. "Elan" asking her out seems to good to be true, she doesn't analyze it, and it leads to her getting her voice back. Prophecy is indirect but arguable. Ambiguously true.
Prophecy: Belkar asks if he will cause the death of any of a number of people. "Yes." While not a specific answer to the question, it is a legitimate answer, because Belkar doesn't ask about each person individually, he asks about someone from the group as a whole. He killed the oracle. Prophecy is true (and, I at least think several of the oracle's other explanations would work, too).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle seems to hint that he knows Xykon and crew are going to Azure City first, by suggesting Roy alter his question, along with the constant cuts to Xykon and henchmen stating they're going to Azure City. This is debatable.
Prophecy: Roy asks whether Xykon will be close to Girard's or Kraagor's gate first, chronologically. Since Xykon has gone to neither yet, this is not yet proven. However, since we know he and Redcloak currently plan to go to Girard's Gate next, it is looking as though it will be true.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can understand a raven. He's not a druid, so he doesn't have speak with animals, so something else must be going on.
Prophecy: Backwing asks a question. We can't know what he asks, as we don't get a translation, so we can't put the answer, "Ginko balboa," into any context. This prophecy can't be proven true or false.

Don't Split the Party
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows how Roy died in great detail, including that he fell off a zombie dragon, that Belkar gave Roy the ring of jumping +20, and that Belkar made a bet with the thief about whether or not Roy would jump on the dragon.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Celia is dating Roy, and intimates that he knows that Roy also died because he couldn't break her talisman, and that she doesn't know about what humans can do (he also implies that he knows what uh, activities they've been doing on the bed...).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Miko is dead (which no one else in the order knows), and that she is a paladin. He knows about her beliefs that the Order was working with Xykon; he knows that they rallied to protect Belkar in Shojo's throne room; he knows she was imprisoned; he knows that she died when the castle exploded (and that the castle exploded at all).
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to set up a village so that it would set off Belkar's mark of justice once Belkar came back (which, of course, implies he knew Belkar would come back), and he knew Belkar would at least damage him, because he named the Village "Lickmyorangeballshalfling" as f*** you to Belkar. This leads to:
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knew that Belkar had a mark of justice on him, and that it would trigger if he dealt lethal damage within the bounds of a village.
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to pay his lizardfolk friends to resurrect him just after Haley and company had left, knowing he would be dead. From the way they talk, he's done this quite a few times before.
Prediction: The oracle predicts that he will die again at a specific future date. As we will likely never see this happen, it is not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can perceive incorporeal creatures, as evinced by the fact he can see Roy.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle implies he knows about Roy's mother's spirit's sexual adventures in the afterlife.
Prediction: The oracle repeats the prediction that Belkar will die soon. Once again, not yet proven.
Prophecy: The oracle makes his prediction about Belkar into a prophecy. Belkar's still not dead, so it's still not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle goes beyond the standard medium-awareness of the Order of the Stick characters and shows awareness of the readers.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle tells Roy he knows about the ancient black dragon's approach.
Prediction: Not quite a prediction, but the oracle tells Roy he will forget everything but his prophecy once he leaves. Since Roy remembers, this is false.
Uncanny Foresight: the oracle knew to keep a wand of dismissal on himself to banish Roy when he wouldn't leave.
Prophecy: The oracle tells the ancient black dragon that it was Vaarsuvius that killed her son. Since we know this is the case, this is true.

Current Arc
The oracle has not made an appearance.

Okay, so here are the results:


True: Prophecies: 5; Predictions: 2
Ambiguously True: Prophecies: 2; Predictions: 0
Not Yet Proven: Prophecies: 4; Predictions: 4
False: Prophecies: 0; Predictions: 1
Can't Be Proven: Prophecies: 1; Predictions: 0
Uncanny Knowledge: 12 instances
Uncanny Foresight: 3 instances

Conclusion:
Because of the large body of evidence, outside of word-twisting prophecies, that suggests the oracle at least has some sort of extraordinary senses, I would conclude that he can indeed see the future. You may point to the instance of being wrong about Roy forgetting as evidence that he can't, but that would be an incorrect assumption. The oracle is mortal, and can make mistakes, just like any of us. Being wrong once doesn't negate all the times he's been right.

As far as this debate goes, you would need to provide reasonable explanations to the majority of these instances that indicate how the oracle could have known what he knows if you want to convincingly argue that he can't actually see the future.


That's neat. Thanks for analyzing this, Absol197.

[MesiDoomstalker]

To be fair, what we're seeing here is more than that. It's not just establishing an emotional bond to another living being, it's using that bond as a reference point to understand the bonds between others, and then using this newfound understanding as motivation to help others.

Thats an excellent analization of this comic. Bravo sir.

[dsavereide]

According to Kurt Vonnegut, you are who you pretend to be.

Maybe pretending to be something he isn't, is changing the way Belkar thinks. He didn't have to think much before, just do what came naturally. Now he has to think about what someone else would do and that tempers his actions. And maybe that thinking is starting to effect him.

When he first heard the phrase "dueling his own puppy" did it effect him the same as recalling it now does? Now he is learning to put himself in others shoes. Is empathy far behind?

[WickedWizard17]

I would have loved to see the scene where Belkar broke out. But as the SSGoW said himself about rescuing the Roy bone golem, maybe it'll be bonus content in the next book :smallwink:

[mrmcfatty]

Well, that all came down to the prophecy from the Oracle . . . who erases the memory of everyone who comes to get predictions from him about their time spent with him except the prediction itself because he doesn't want anything else he says to influence the flow of time. Now, Roy interacted with the Oracle when he was dead, and after he left didn't have his memory wiped of the time spent with him because apparently the Oracle's spell doesn't work on spirits and the Oracle was confident that it would work and didn't bother to look ahead and find out so he could alter it.

Practically, this affects things in that when the Order of the Stick couldn't find the Gate in the middle of the desert, Elan suggested that they could go back and ask the Oracle to find the location, but Roy shoots down that idea due to the fact that Belkar stabbed him and he still might be upset about it - information he wouldn't have had if his memory hadn't been successfully wiped. Assuming that, if Roy didn't know about Belkar's attack on the Oracle, the Order of the Stick would have gone back to ask the Oracle about the location of the Gate instead of asking around the Western Continent and eventually finding Tarquin, then that means that events have indeed been altered due to information from (or about, anyway) the Oracle and the timeline has been changed, meaning Belkar's death *may* not happen as the Oracle prophesied it, depending on how it occurred.

It's a longshot, but it just seems to me like's it's too much setting up for something to have Roy remember his session with the Oracle and not do anything with it, especially since it's only good for that one time. And I don't think giving Roy some extra information on the Oracle is reason enough to do it. I don't know though.

or perhaps the oracle knew that roy would remember but pretended he didnt.

By doing this he caused belkar to be in the EoB instead of with the oracle therefore by him staying there it will lead to his demise.

just another slant on what your already thinking.

[Cranica]

If we're going down the epileptic trees route, who says Belkar couldn't be raised as a non-breathing undead? If the Giant wants this stuff to happen, he can do it, but there'd be no good reason to deceive us on this point.

[Kish]

If we're going down the epileptic trees route, who says Belkar couldn't be raised as a non-breathing undead?
"...Not long for the world..."

[SoC175]

I'm not a D&D player but I still like this series, so I don;t know a lot about afterlife in D&D but if someone makes a sincere last minute conversion or change of aliment does that affect their afterlife?It could, I think it would depend on the planes involved. In the end each soul equals power for the plane (because the afterlife in D&D is not eternal, you just stay long enough to be purified (in regard to the alignment of the plane you're on) and then you are absorbed by the plane/deity to further empower it) equals power for the plane's respective alignment.

So if you were LE all your life but sincerely became CN just before your death (although I can't imagine how this is possible) I could see Limbo pulling against the Nine Hells to get your soul, as it equals more power for CN in the cosmos and less for LE

[Caractacus]

According to Kurt Vonnegut, you are who you pretend to be.

Maybe pretending to be something he isn't, is changing the way Belkar thinks. He didn't have to think much before, just do what came naturally. Now he has to think about what someone else would do and that tempers his actions. And maybe that thinking is starting to effect him.

When he first heard the phrase "dueling his own puppy" did it effect him the same as recalling it now does? Now he is learning to put himself in others shoes. Is empathy far behind?

I think I agree. I have always harboured the strong suspicion that Shojo's entire point was always to affect Belkar's behaviour and influence him towards good. (Please note: towards good - I do not mean that Belkar will become Good or even Neutral.) I am sure that Shojo was Good (have I remembered wrongly?), and he would wish Mr Scruffy to have a master who will treat him well - so maybe it's all about the Scruffinator!

Naturally, this attempt to make him less evil would be utterly ineffective if this is what Belkar understood him to be doing, so he dressed it up to look as if he need only be self-serving and merely deceiving of others...

Belkar is gradually becoming less Evil* despite himself...


*Not 'Good': I haven't said that - I didn't even say he was becoming Neutral necessarily! However, he may have taken his first steps along a long and winding path...that will pretty soon lead over a cliff, sadly, if the prophecy works as it claims.

[pendell]

I am sure that Shojo was Good (have I remembered wrongly?),

IIRC, Belkar once commented that Raise Dead didn't work on Shojo because he was probably in the chaotic good afterlife. I haven't seen any reason to dispute Belkar's assessment that Shojo was chaotic good.

I think we all agree that Belkar is developing empathy towards others and becoming a better person. Actually redeeming him, though ... I'm not sure how that would work. It's going to require a pretty hefty karma deposit to shift his alignment, either on his own (Darth Vader tossing the Emperor down the reactor shaft) or by someone else on his behalf (Aslan going under the knife for Edmund's sake).

Don't know if that second is feasible. Is there someone in OOTSworld who has both the power and the will to sacrifice himself to redeem an evil person?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gilphon]

Even supposing that such a person did exist, it seems to me like a bizarre narrative choice to have somebody like that die to redeem somebody who doesn't have long to live anyway.

More likely, I think, is that if Belkar finds redemption, he will do so by sacrificing himself.

[Ravens_cry]

More likely, I think, is that if Belkar finds redemption, he will do so by sacrificing himself.
There is a Trope™ for that. :smalltongue:
***
In all seriousness, it is nice to see Mr. Bitterleaf get some character development.

[rewinn]

In all the multiverse, how often does someone come along who unleashes a hungry Allosaurus as an act of compassion?

Belkar may never leave the deep end of the alignment pool, but he's adding to his legendary status.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

I enjoyed this strip. My favorite panel was Mr. Scruffy lapping up the potion!

It seems to me that we are seeing evidence of a possible alignment shift. I'm looking forward to seeing Belkar's death because I am curious to see how Rich will portray Belkar's afterlife. If Belkar embraces the path of moral goodness before he dies what will become of him? Playgrounders have already pointed out that Belkar has a long history of evil deeds. Does that condemn him? Or will an act of pure self-sacrifice make up for that?
As a comparison, we can't forget that Miko was a Lawful Good paladin who fell from grace before she died. Since she was Lawful Good, we have to assume that she was leading a Lawful Good life up until the moment she fell from grace. This means that if Miko had died before she fell from grace instead of afterwords, then we would expect that she would go to the Celestial Realms. Now, however, we probably expect that no matter what good she may have done before her fall from grace, she will most likely not be joining others in the Celestial Realm.
Miko might argue that she had the best of intentions and was only trying to serve the greater good. We know that "trying" counts for something because that was one reason it was given for Roy to be permitted to enter the Celestial Realms. Belkar is "pretending" to be good and "trying" to be evil. So that still counts against him in the afterlife. Releasing the Allosaur and helping Mr. Scruffy aren't particularly overt acts of goodness. It's been pointed out that these are a drop in the bucket compared to his deeds of evil. This is a complex question, so I am looking forward to seeing what happens in Belkar's afterlife panels.
Of course if Belkar attains Godhood… then I suppose that would be the ultimate way to say "screw you" to the system…

[Dr. Strangelove]

I for one resent the comments that this is just a cheap ploy to make us feel remorse when Belkar kicks it. Many of us were going to feel much remorse when he kicks it regardless.

We can't all be the hero you know. Sometimes a self-serving bada$$ is the order of the hour. There's a reason why the original Star Wars rock and the prequels suck - only Jedi? Lame. You need Han Solo for contrast (and no, I'm not saying Han Solo is evil. Relax. It's just like, a metaphor or something).

I have a feeling that maybe old shojo is arranging things so belkar and miko end up in the same afterlife. Those two might make a couple eventually and temper each other's excesses.

[Aurabolt]

I wonder how long it would be until Belkar finds YukYuk and shanks him good? It'd make him feel better, Mr.Scruffy feel better because the thing that hurt him is dead, and make me feel better because shooting cats as animal companions is no good.

Also, I'm not quite sure Belkar is in his right frame of mind if he thinks of himself as the lizard rogue and Mr.Scruffy as the Dragonkin. After all, the Dragonkin does have a mind of his own and a personality that doesn't exactly hinge on the lizard. To be honest, I hope one of them goes down-likely the Rogue. After all, he did capture the group and that doesn't make me very beholden to someone who interferes with a much-greater threat.

[J's]

I have a feeling that maybe old shojo is arranging things so belkar and miko end up in the same afterlife. Those two might make a couple eventually and temper each other's excesses.

Both of their excesses involved killing things, for various reasons. That would only encourage them to be worse.

[stimepy]

First off. Awwww. Very big (and good) strip for our lovable Belki...(I am going to be slaughtered for that right?)



Of course if Belkar attains Godhood… then I suppose that would be the ultimate way to say "screw you" to the system…

IF that happens, I'd hate to see his followers. More over, I'd hate to think of what he'd do just to keep himself occupied. It is a very VERY long time to live while dead.....

[ORione]

First off. Awwww. Very big (and good) strip for our lovable Belki...(I am going to be slaughtered for that right?)



IF that happens, I'd hate to see his followers. More over, I'd hate to think of what he'd do just to keep himself occupied. It is a very VERY long time to live while dead.....

His clerics would have access to the following domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Animal.

[Gusion]

Roy was already positively impacting Belkar long before dear little kitty cat. See comic 489.

It should be noted, however, that just because the LG afterlife is so... discerning doesn't mean the rest of the alignment chart would be. CN would, I expect, take pretty much anyone without overly caring. Of course, I'm not sure what a CN afterlife actually would be like; but that's neither here nor there

[Hiro Protagonest]

His clerics would have access to the following domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Animal.

Sexy, Shoeless (or Sandal), and War as well.

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

<snip> Of course, I'm not sure what a CN afterlife actually would be like; but that's neither here nor there

well, according to Wikipedia's page on the outer planes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane), the 5 chaotic outer planes are
Arborea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arborea_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) (CG) Ysgard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ysgard) (CG, CN) Limbo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) (CN) Pandemonium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemonium_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) (CN, CE) and The Abyss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyss_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) (CE)

[Hamiltonz]

I detect the faint smell of a "The Afterlife of Belkar" book; wherein he actually becomes a sexy shoeless/sandled god (of war).

An entire book unto himself...that would fit his ego nicely.

[Tobimaro]

No, Belkar. Mr. Scruffy is doing it right.

Giant, this was a very good update, even though I am not a cat person.

[Sith_Happens]

Silly Belkar. You don't influence cats... Cats CONTROL you.

He's not a dwarf though.:smallconfused:

[Dr. Strangelove]

No, Belkar. Mr. Scruffy is doing it right.

Giant, this was a very good update, even though I am not a cat person.

HERETIC!!!

[pendell]

Even supposing that such a person did exist, it seems to me like a bizarre narrative choice to have somebody like that die to redeem somebody who doesn't have long to live anyway.

More likely, I think, is that if Belkar finds redemption, he will do so by sacrificing himself.

I quite agree. I'm simply going through the logical possibilities suggested by other fiction to see what is possible, not necessarily what is probable.

Now that it's been a couple hours since the original post, and I've had some time to read other people's responses and think about them, I suspect you are right -- if there was an Aslan-type figure he would already have been introduced. Such a being at this point in the story WOULD be the Deus Ex Machina that people have been accusing Rich of bringing into the story when he hasn't yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[cildan]

The only person I can see in the comic I can see that would sacrifice himself for others is O-Chul, but I doubt he would do it for Belkar, and besides he is probably nowhere near there.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Now, tell me this isn't exactly what's happening in this strip.

Belkar isn't a morally ambiguous character. On a kilonazi scale, he's probably one of the most evil characters in OOTSverse, differing from Xykon in degree of power rather than character.

So why would you introduce a note of sympathy to such a character ...?
Belkar is actually changing. He never had anyone to care for his entire life, and thus never thought about what other people feel like. He was ostracized by the halflings in his home village for being the smallest. The only way he knows how to feel better is by hurting others. But, for the first time, he feels empathy with another living being.

I felt the same way, once. I was a geek (back before it was "cool") and I briefly tried being evil as a way of feeling better. It worked...somewhat. However I could tell it wasn't nearly as fun as doing "good". One good act felt better than a hundred evil acts. Belkar is having this realization for the first time, even if it's in a selfish way (it only affects him).

[Shoelessgdowar]

*Sigh*, do I have to get this back out again? I even think you were the same person I wrote this up for in the first place, okay, here we go:

Analysis of the Truth of the Oracle's Powers, by Absol197:
Shoelessgdowar, You obviously want to doubt the oracle's ability to see the future. Fair enough, a person should always be suspicious of someone claiming to have such a power. So, in the interest of looking at this fairly, let's look at everything we've seen him do that suggests he can see the future.

For this analysis, I'll be using the following categories:

Prophecy: The "on the record" predictions that have a green speech bubble. These will be put into the following categories:
True: The prophecy was unambiguously true, and happened as predicted, or the oracle gave precisely accurate current information.
Ambiguously True: If translated the proper way, the oracle was correct, but there could be alternate translations that contradict.
Not Yet Proven: The predicted event has not yet come to pass, and so we can't prove whether or not he was correct.
False: The oracle was obviously wrong.

Prediction: Things he says that predict future events without being a prophecy (as described above). Predictions follow the same categories as prophecies.

Uncanny Knowledge: Evidence that the oracle knows things he was not present for, or things that would otherwise be very difficult for him to know without his stated abilities.

Uncanny Foresight: Things the oracle has done or preparations we've seen him make that indicate foreknowledge of what's coming, or otherwise hard to explain without his supposed ability.

Okay, here we go, chronologically:

Start of Darkness
Prediction: The Oracle calls Eugene, "Ghost Dad!" and tells him that it will be, "funny later" when Eugene asks what he means. Later, Eugene does indeed appear as a ghost to one of his children (namely, Roy). A true prediction.

Eugene is not the Oracle's father, and it was not funny later. So no, it was not true, it was not a prediction, it was an off-handed comment. Everyone supposedly dies at some point (excluding undeath and such), so calling someone a Ghost is not a prediction



Prophecy: Eugene Greenhilt asks him for the name of the person who killed his master. the Oracle answers, "Xykon." We see in Start of Darkness that, yes, Xykon kills Fryon. This prophecy is true. Assuming the oracle just said the name of a random person (or made up a name to tell Eugene), it is an enormous coincidence that this is both the name of an actual person, and that that person was who really killed Fryon.

His ability to mystically get information of the past and present does not make it special, it just means Tiamet who is a deity can give him information of what has and is happening. We can do that today with the internet, that doesn't make us all prophets or oracles, it makes us well-informed. These really need to be excluded from the arguments as they have no relevance to his ability to predict the future.


Uncanny Knowledge:The Oracle tells Eugene that they are in a, "scene [he doesn't] remember in a narrative framed by s flash-forward in a prequel book." All of this is true. However, this could be argued to simply be medium-awareness, which most OotS characters have to some degree.

Prediction: The Oracle predicts that he is getting to second base with his date the night that Eugene visits. As we never see the date, so we can't be certain if he does get to second base (or even what second base means for reptiles), this prediction is not yet proven.

Self-Fulfilling prophecies also don't matter. I can say I'm going to do anything, then do it, and then say I saw the future... watch, I will point out how knowing Belkar would kill him can't be a prophecy because he made it happen intentionally by lying... I'll do it... I'm predicting it now.



On the Origins of PCs
The Oracle doesn’t make an appearance.

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
The oracle doesn't make an appearance.

No Cure for the Paladin Blues
the oracle doesn't make an appearance.

Sounds to me like he wasn't doing his supposed job. Why even mention these if he didn't appear unless to only point out he had so many failures that he hid his failures by avoiding being shown failing.



War and XPs
Prophecy: Durkon says that one of the oracle's prophecies was how they knew where to find Xykon. Since they found Xykon, this prophecy is true.
Prophecy: We learn that Roy asked, "Where is Xykon?" and was answered, "in his throne room." Since the room where Xykon was hanging out during the first book was a room, with a throne, and he took it over from Dorukan, this is a correct prediction (if an unhelpful one). True.

1) these are the same Prophecy, so you're giving him double credit for an at best ambiguously true statement.
2) It was not a Throne Room. I can put a microwave and a mini fridge in the bathroom, that does not make it the kitchen. Dorukan designed the dungeon, he made that room the gate room, it was the gate room until it was blown up by Elan, it was never a throne room, it was only arguable even Xykon's, so it couldn't be Xykon's Throne Room. So the ambiguously true prophecy turns out to be... a lie that Durkon said was helpful, that just means Durkon is being nice, not that the prophecy was true.


Prediction: The oracle intimates that Belkar doesn't have long to live. Since Belkar is not dead yet, and the stated amount of time has not passed, this is not yet proven.

Actually all he says is he's not long for this world. They're sticks... heck in Belkar's hallucination in which he was shown as a simple stick, we could see it represented better... He's a short stick, he's not long... their world is about sticks, so a stick that is short for their world is not long for their world. This is a off-hand comment to incite anger and mess with Belkar, ambiguous at best, and if we go with it being a prediction of death, then it is false until it is true, so it is false unless you accept it has nothing to do with life and only a short joke at Belkar's expense.



Uncanny Knowledge: the oracle can understand Haley. He says it's because he can see the future to when her cryptograms are translated. Either way, this is hard to explain without some supernatural ability that is not normally available to either kobolds (his race) or experts (his class).

Tiamet let's him read the forums and information, officially every strip is part of the book, so by the time the book is published the cryptograms have been translated, it is not future knowledge it is past/present knowledge, and not so Uncanny since everyone of us could have done it too. And Uncanny Knowledge is still not the ability to see the future.


Prediction: The oracle tells Roy and Elan that they are "running late for a pair of family reunions." The very next arc is them fighting Nale (a part of Elan's family), who has kidnapped Julia (a part of Roy's family). A true prediction.

1) This again is present knowledge, not future, and...
2) Reunion implies a pleasant event, as it is a tense of Reunite and that means to Unite again. Neither supposed reunion was pleasant, so this is at best ambiguously true, and still not a relevant to his ability to see the future. And actually they weren't late, so he was wrong, if they were late then Julia would have been dead, Yokyok would still be alive, and Nale would have never been able to make the swap.



Prophecy: Durkon asks how he will be returning to the Dwarven homelands. The answer: "Posthumously." As Durkon has not yet died nor returned home, this prophecy is not yet proven. (although, even if he get's disintegrated and his body can't be returned as Durkon himself expects, his soul can still return like when Roy wanders around as a spirit, which would be a posthumous return).

As I said before, until it is proven true it is by default false... so this is false. Also, Durkon would not go or might not be able to go back if his body isn't buried in Dwarven lands, so in your hypothetical version it would also become false since he would not be returned posthumously.



Prophecy: Elan asks if the story will have a happy ending. The answer is "Yes, for you at least." The story is not over, so this is not yet proven.

Actually, this is the one I will contend was proven, but because it is ambiguously true. As Roy proved it, Elan chooses to continue his story and make his happy ending(s)... Elan could have chosen to end his story at any point after he started dating Haley and his ending would have been a happy one. The operative modifier here was 'a' vs 'the' (note: I predict these modifiers will be important for a later argument point) happy ending, so Elan can have 1 or a billion little happy endings, and since they're happy (for him at least), that would make the Oracle's prophecy ambiguously true... but simply by putting the idea in Elan's head essentially allows the Oracle to point them all out as his many little happy endings (for him at least)



Prophecy: V asks how she will achieve ultimate arcane power. "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The Giant gives a good explanation of this in author commentary in Don't Split the Party: the four words are "I...I must succeed." V says them to herself, the right time is when the IFCC is offering, and the wrong reasons are to prove to herself that magic is all-powerful. The giant considers this a fulfilled prophecy, and I think he would know. Ambiguously True.

Nope, false.
1) It was 3 words... I...I is one word... it is a stretched or stuttered word, but only 1 word, Must is a word, and succeed is a word... 1+1+1=3, not 4.
2) Said it to no one, not to the right person, any shrink will tell you that thinking outloud is not talking to someone.
3) Time being right is about the only thing true here, it was a short term option
4) All the RIGHT reasons, saving hir family is all the right reasons, not causing Durkon to waste spells, being able to handle Xykon (nearly), delaying Team Evil, and not trusting an alternate plan that could have been a deception by the forces of evil are all the RIGHT reasons. One wrong reason does not counteract all the right ones.
5) Tiamet complained to the IIFC about the repercussions of this act, which means neither the Oracle nor She actually could see that this would have happened or they wouldn't have told Mama Black where to find Vaarsuvius and thereby not causing the events to lead to those 3 words being said at the right time to no one for all the right reasons.


Prophecy: Haley asks how she can get her voice back. "Don't look the gift horse in the mouth." Essentially, when something too good to be true happens, don't analyse it. "Elan" asking her out seems to good to be true, she doesn't analyze it, and it leads to her getting her voice back. Prophecy is indirect but arguable. Ambiguously true.

A Gift Horse is not something too good to be true, a gift horse is a moderately pleasant event people tend to pass up because they want something more or better. And Nale was a Trojan Horse, not a Gift Horse... Something believed to be a good thing that you bring among yourselves only to have it bring your destruction (or try) is a Trojan Horse. This is a key point... had the Oracle mixed his metaphors and said don't look the Trojan Horse in the mouth then I'd never argue this, but Nale was a Trojan Horse, never a gift horse. The correct prophecy is, "When you're at your most vulnerable, you will overcome this hindrance for love and truth, confessing both, and so your voice shall be yours again." but he didn't. He made up a lie and the lie is not even remotely close to ambiguously true.



Prophecy: Belkar asks if he will cause the death of any of a number of people. "Yes." While not a specific answer to the question, it is a legitimate answer, because Belkar doesn't ask about each person individually, he asks about someone from the group as a whole. He killed the oracle. Prophecy is true (and, I at least think several of the oracle's other explanations would work, too).

Nope, wrong. Oracle is alive, so it wasn't 'THE' death of the Oracle, it was 'A' death of the Oracle. Belkar did not ask if he would cause 'A' Death of them, he asked if he would cause 'THE' death... Roy lives, so not Roy; V lives in another Dimension, so not V; Windstriker (I think that's the Horse's name) also lives in another Plane/Dimension, so that is a No; Destroying the Gate caused Miko's death, not Belkar; Oracle lives, so that is a No as well. The Death is final, no coming back... The Death of Belkar is what everyone has been fixated on, but the Oracle chooses to die, he intends to die, he has the choice to alter the parameters and stay alive, but he chooses not to because it helps him reinforce the lie that he is making accurate predictions/prophecies. Self fulfilling is not a real prediction/prophecy... unless you accept that I predicted I'd be making this argument earlier... so I can see the future.



Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle seems to hint that he knows Xykon and crew are going to Azure City first, by suggesting Roy alter his question, along with the constant cuts to Xykon and henchmen stating they're going to Azure City. This is debatable.

We knew it too. Hinting is nothing, if he'd mocked Roy and said that the Gate in Azure city was next, then you'd have a point, but he didn't. Seeing present/past doesn't matter, only the future matters when judging his abilities.


Prophecy: Roy asks whether Xykon will be close to Girard's or Kraagor's gate first, chronologically. Since Xykon has gone to neither yet, this is not yet proven. However, since we know he and Redcloak currently plan to go to Girard's Gate next, it is looking as though it will be true.

He lied... The Gates are all connected, Xykon Blackwing to the tear, the ruins went boom, for an instant Xykon was by all the gates at once... so after Azure Gate the only option for the range given by Roy is 'Both'


Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can understand a raven. He's not a druid, so he doesn't have speak with animals, so something else must be going on.

He lied and made up something, it was false. Until WE know the question, the only option we have is the Oracle extorted money from Blackwing and didn't care.


Prophecy: Backwing asks a question. We can't know what he asks, as we don't get a translation, so we can't put the answer, "Ginko balboa," into any context. This prophecy can't be proven true or false.

Yes it can be proven False... Blackwing has yet to use Ginkgo Bilbao, so it is False.


Don't Split the Party
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows how Roy died in great detail, including that he fell off a zombie dragon, that Belkar gave Roy the ring of jumping +20, and that Belkar made a bet with the thief about whether or not Roy would jump on the dragon.

Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Celia is dating Roy, and intimates that he knows that Roy also died because he couldn't break her talisman, and that she doesn't know about what humans can do (he also implies that he knows what uh, activities they've been doing on the bed...).

Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Miko is dead (which no one else in the order knows), and that she is a paladin. He knows about her beliefs that the Order was working with Xykon; he knows that they rallied to protect Belkar in Shojo's throne room; he knows she was imprisoned; he knows that she died when the castle exploded (and that the castle exploded at all).

Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knew that Belkar had a mark of justice on him, and that it would trigger if he dealt lethal damage within the bounds of a village.

If we knew it, he knows it. He has already mentioned reading the translations and such, so it is not Uncanny Knowledge. It is 4th wall breaking knowledge, but that is acceptable as we know the Oracle is 4th wall breaking liar.


Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to set up a village so that it would set off Belkar's mark of justice once Belkar came back (which, of course, implies he knew Belkar would come back), and he knew Belkar would at least damage him, because he named the Village "Lickmyorangeballshalfling" as f*** you to Belkar. This leads to:

Not even uncanny. He knew he was going to trick Belkar into killing him, he knew about the mark, he knew the stipulations to set the mark off, he just set up everything he could to... as you put it f*** Belkar. Knowing you're going to make someone kill you is not prophetic, it is being a jerk until they get angry and then intentionally failing your saves so you die. (See... I predicted I'd argue this). If the Oracle could see the future he'd have predicted that Belkar would kill none of them, and that Belkar's attempt to kill him would only hurt Belkar, but he didn't because the Oracle needs his predictions of his own death to pad his ambiguously true lucky prophecies to make him look like he gets the predictions right.


Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to pay his lizardfolk friends to resurrect him just after Haley and company had left, knowing he would be dead. From the way they talk, he's done this quite a few times before.

Prediction: The oracle predicts that he will die again at a specific future date. As we will likely never see this happen, it is not yet proven.

It isn't uncanny if he intends to cause himself to die. He set dates and gets himself killed on those dates, nothing uncanny about it. And until it happens, he's wrong. Especially when he could give more nice and honest answers that don't get himself killed... if he really saw the future.



Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can perceive incorporeal creatures, as evinced by the fact he can see Roy.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle implies he knows about Roy's mother's spirit's sexual adventures in the afterlife.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle goes beyond the standard medium-awareness of the Order of the Stick characters and shows awareness of the readers.

Yes, we know Tiamet lets him see the present of the graphic novels, the forums, and stuff going on anywhere in the OotS wolrd. It really isn't that Uncanny. It would be Uncanny if he hadn't admitted to reading Haley's translations and didn't wink at us.


Prediction: The oracle repeats the prediction that Belkar will die soon. Once again, not yet proven.
Prophecy: The oracle makes his prediction about Belkar into a prophecy. Belkar's still not dead, so it's still not yet proven.


So... False, and False. Ambiguous veiled attempts to try to encourage Belkar's death. If you say something enough times, maybe people will start to believe it seems to be the principle hear. Might I suggest checking out the recent episode of Warehouse 13... there was a similar prognosticator there.


Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle tells Roy he knows about the ancient black dragon's approach.

I don't see how someone who can see the present, and is the disciple of the Goddess of All Evil Dragons being able to tell an Evil Dragon is going to show up is Uncanny Knowledge.


Prediction: Not quite a prediction, but the oracle tells Roy he will forget everything but his prophecy once he leaves. Since Roy remembers, this is false.

Actually I think you need to make a new category for this one: Uncanny LACK of Knowledge. He's had that spell that wipes memories to protect him for years and he never learned what spells and effects bypass it seems like an Uncanny Lack of Knowledge and Insight.



Uncanny Foresight: the oracle knew to keep a wand of dismissal on himself to banish Roy when he wouldn't leave.

He's an NPC, he has annoying patrons... how is having a wand that will get rid of them Uncanny Foresight. Unless we want to start the Deus Ex argument pointlessly.


Prophecy: The oracle tells the ancient black dragon that it was Vaarsuvius that killed her son. Since we know this is the case, this is true.

Again, Uncanny Lack of Knowledge and Insight. Not to mention foolish, and glaring proof that the Oracle doesn't see the future (Baby Black's death was past info, not future), otherwise he'd have told her that the death of herself and most of her family is not worth trying to get revenge on the Elf as well as he should never have told her where to find V.




Current Arc
The oracle has not made an appearance.

Again, showing how bad he is that he has to cover up by never being seen.

Okay, so here are the results:



True: Prophecies: 5; Predictions: 2
Ambiguously True: Prophecies: 2; Predictions: 0
Not Yet Proven: Prophecies: 4; Predictions: 4
False: Prophecies: 0; Predictions: 1
Can't Be Proven: Prophecies: 1; Predictions: 0
Uncanny Knowledge: 12 instances
Uncanny Foresight: 3 instances

Your count is so far off that I really don't want to go back to check so I can basically say: Prophecies True: 0; Ambiguously True: 1 or 2; False: All the rest; Uncanny Lack of Knowledge and Foresight: 2 or more.

You're giving him far too much credit. You should investigate Erik Weisz and his debunking of charlatans like the Oracle. He did not allow lies and tricks to get through the filter to be nice, but vehemently denied anything but absolutely true prophecies as true. If it isn't True, it is false. This isn't odds and luck, this is being the absolute seer of the future or not... That is what an Oracle is, the absolute seer of the future, not some two-bit charlatan trying to exhort money from people for drawing on their palms in red ink and calling it blood.


Conclusion:
Because of the large body of evidence, outside of word-twisting prophecies, that suggests the oracle at least has some sort of extraordinary senses, I would conclude that he can indeed see the future. You may point to the instance of being wrong about Roy forgetting as evidence that he can't, but that would be an incorrect assumption. The oracle is mortal, and can make mistakes, just like any of us. Being wrong once doesn't negate all the times he's been right.

As far as this debate goes, you would need to provide reasonable explanations to the majority of these instances that indicate how the oracle could have known what he knows if you want to convincingly argue that he can't actually see the future.


The present and past are not the future. Being allowed to see what has happened and is happening are not even remotely the same as seeing the future. There is no need to provide reasonable explanations for the majority of his knowledge as it is telling people something they could find out through other means, but the Oracle is faster and easier since he can just look in the graphic novels and on the forums. And his visions come from Tiamet who is not mortal, so your argument about his fallibility is irrelevant as it is her ability to see and know that matters, not the Oracle's. He is merely a con man there to be a voice to speak her words, and he like her is evil and a liar.

The large body of evidence points that he is a liar and a crook, not a seer of the future.

[Geech]

*snip*

I think your analysis of the individual prophecies is so bizarre that I can only assume you're being facetious. Surely you can't mean the things you are writing.

[Hattish Thing]

Aaah, I missed Belkar, its cool to the see the cat too. I think this is the only time Belkar was truly happy. Go Charactor development.

[Valley]

Now Lord Scruffy, and his side-kick, bringer-of-food, changer-of-the-litter, door-opener, halfing can go kick some butt.

:smalltongue:

[Hattish Thing]

I hope so its been a while since he really kicked linear butt. :smallbiggrin:

[The Anarresti]

No way. In case you hadn't noticed he was looking around for someone to kill in cold blood so he could vent his rage? :\

That's a contradiction in terms. The meaning of the phrase "to kill in cold blood" means to kill someone in a calm and premeditated manner, not in the heat of battle or lust of revenge.

[Absol197]

*snip*

So, I don't have the time, nor do I think this is the place, to fully address your every point. However, I must admit I can't understand the logic of a lot of your arguments. You seem to be of the opinion that the Oracle is required to give straightforward answers that are true to the spirit of the questions that are asked of him, and any answer that doesn't fall exactly into that perfect category must be a lie. I, on the other hand, see him as a mortal who doesn't really like people, and who has a sadistic streak, and can completely believe that someone like that with the ability to see the future would choose to give purposefully misleading, if true, answers.

A couple big themes I noticed that I want to address: your idea that, "if it's not true, it is false," is, in my opinion, a horrible way to judge such things.

I am going to make a prediction right now...*drumroll*..."I am going to die eventually!"

Okay, since I have not yet died, by your method of judging prophecy, this is a false prediction. Of course, as anybody knows, everyone dies eventually, so it's guarenteed that, yes, I will someday die. That would be a true (if incredibly obvious) prediction, even though it has yet to occur.
On a related note, predicting your own future behavior is still a prediction of the future, just not one that takes any real skill or special power.

Finally, I want to sddress your statement that knowledge of the past/present is not knowledge of the future. If you prescribe to determinism, then a perfect working knowledge of the past or present would give you the ability to perfectly predict the future.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Both of their excesses involved killing things, for various reasons. That would only encourage them to be worse.

Actually, seeing your own faults mirrored in someone else, seeing someone else do what you do, is often the BEST way to motivate you to change your own ways.

Seeing belkar's endless murderous ways and senseless, unjustified killing in addition to his utter disregard for the opinions, beliefs and feelings of others might make miko face her own faults and change them.

Likewise, seeing miko's arrogance and disregard for what others think might make belkar have a little more regard for other people just to spite the bitch.

[Shoelessgdowar]

So, I don't have the time, nor do I think this is the place, to fully address your every point. However, I must admit I can't understand the logic of a lot of your arguments. You seem to be of the opinion that the Oracle is required to give straightforward answers that are true to the spirit of the questions that are asked of him, and any answer that doesn't fall exactly into that perfect category must be a lie. I, on the other hand, see him as a mortal who doesn't really like people, and who has a sadistic streak, and can completely believe that someone like that with the ability to see the future would choose to give purposefully misleading, if true, answers.

A couple big themes I noticed that I want to address: your idea that, "if it's not true, it is false," is, in my opinion, a horrible way to judge such things.

I am going to make a prediction right now...*drumroll*..."I am going to die eventually!"

Okay, since I have not yet died, by your method of judging prophecy, this is a false prediction. Of course, as anybody knows, everyone dies eventually, so it's guarenteed that, yes, I will someday die. That would be a true (if incredibly obvious) prediction, even though it has yet to occur.
On a related note, predicting your own future behavior is still a prediction of the future, just not one that takes any real skill or special power.

Finally, I want to sddress your statement that knowledge of the past/present is not knowledge of the future. If you prescribe to determinism, then a perfect working knowledge of the past or present would give you the ability to perfectly predict the future.

Charlatans and con men use generalizations and misleading responses to make themselves seem to be able to see the future. If he can predict the future, he wouldn't need them to ask the question and would know how many answers to give, Tiamet would not have been mad at the IIFC, and he would not ever get killed by anyone because he would know what to say to keep them from killing him. As an Oracle his purpose is to give the exact and correct answer... he's not a wandering soothsayer or a fortune teller, he is an Oracle. Eugene's predictions was more accurate then anything that the Oracle has said, and he went to the Oracle in the past.

And obviously I don't believe in determinism, because I believe the Oracle could have kept himself from dying but would rather be 'dead right'. He doesn't care about being right, only about being thought as right so he can get the money. He even lied about the reason for the memory wipe spell. The reason for the spell is not to protect him from his off-hand comments being remembered so people will see he was right about them, it is so people remember him as being an ideal oracle so they will implicitly trust his prophecies and unconsciously fit whatever happens into a neat box to fit the prophecy, where if they remembered a Kobold con man who was a jerk and a liar and made loads of invalid predictions they'd never return to spend more and word would get out which would end his cash delivery service. Heck the spell probably has saved him a ton of money because he can just tell the companies that he paid the delivery guy, but they forgot that he paid them and he sees they gambled it away before leaving his valley but forgot because of the spell.

Try this, take a moment, instead of giving the evil, crooked kobold the benefit of the doubt on all his predictions, presume the Oracle is as I've said, a liar. Now, look at his predictions again and really consider that the things he's been accurate about were knowledge that spells and objects like crystal balls and brassier in D&D can give as well. Meanwhile, his future predictions have either been ambiguous at best, inaccurate, or completely wrong unless it is something he himself can force and even then it was not true.

The Death of someone is final, a death of someone is transient. Miko caused the Death of Shojo, Xykon caused a Death of Roy, big difference. So Belkar did not cause The death of Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, nor the Oracle. This is a key point, but people overlook it because they're giving the benefit of doubt to the Oracle. The same is the Gift Horse prediction, but there never was a gift horse before she got her voice back... the gift horse came when she got the magic hair extension in the Empire of Blood, but that was long after her voice returned. I even showed a prophecy that he could have made that would have been accurate while not direct and exact: "When you're at your most vulnerable, you will overcome this hindrance for love and truth, confessing both, and so your voice shall be yours again." It covers all the real bases, is accurate, and yet left room for her to interpret... and in case you're wondering, being out in the open on a rooftop is pretty vulnerable to a thief, so she could have thought that was when she was meant to get her voice back.

Rich doesn't have to tell us either way if the Oracle is a liar or accurate, he can let us all argue it out, sitting back and laughing at the people who think the Oracle can see the future.

What is odd is no one addresses why if the Oracle can see the future, that as Tiamet's voice, he'd let Mama Black know where to find Vaarsuvius or even allow Mama Black to know V's name since it would lead to her death and the death of a huge percentage of the Evil Dragons, all who are Tiamet's children. Tiamet was obviously mad about it... which means... the Oracle never saw what was going to happen, which means the Oracle didn't see how V would get the power, so the Oracle can't see the future, only the present and past.


I think your analysis of the individual prophecies is so bizarre that I can only assume you're being facetious. Surely you can't mean the things you are writing.

Bizarre? How is going over them and looking at what they really said instead of accepting being mislead bizarre?

Gift Horse =/= Trojan Horse
3 words =/= 4 words
The Gate Room =/= Xykon's throne room
A Death (sometimes, including this case) =/= The Death

The Oracle twists words left and right, I'm just trying to untwist them to see them straight.

[raymundo]

Hi,

I think it is great you spent a lot of time to tell us what you think about the oracle. My humble opinion, on the other hand, is that you misjudged quite a few things.


What is odd is no one addresses why if the Oracle can see the future, that as Tiamet's voice, he'd let Mama Black know where to find Vaarsuvius or even allow Mama Black to know V's name since it would lead to her death and the death of a huge percentage of the Evil Dragons, all who are Tiamet's children. Tiamet was obviously mad about it... which means... the Oracle never saw what was going to happen, which means the Oracle didn't see how V would get the power, so the Oracle can't see the future, only the present and past.

Sorry, you are extremely over interpreting this one. He may get his power from Tiamat, Tiamat has been very angry about Familicide, yet he could've seen the spell and still had absolutely no reason to tell Mama Black Dragon, as she did not ask about it. He's an oracle, giving creatues an answer to their questions, nothing else.
Is Tiamat cool with this? We don't now, as we had not seen him since then. (if he was so omnipotent, would he not have told Mama Black Dragon about Familicide / the soul splice if he would have been vanquished if he did not tell her? We just don't know how his powers work and really, it just does not matter)


So Belkar did not cause The death of Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, nor the Oracle.

Yah, not yet. But Belkar has caused the death of Miko, just like every other member of the OOTS had.

[FujinAkari]

What is odd is no one addresses why if the Oracle can see the future, that as Tiamet's voice, he'd let Mama Black know where to find Vaarsuvius or even allow Mama Black to know V's name since it would lead to her death and the death of a huge percentage of the Evil Dragons, all who are Tiamet's children. Tiamet was obviously mad about it... which means... the Oracle never saw what was going to happen, which means the Oracle didn't see how V would get the power, so the Oracle can't see the future, only the present and past.

You are overanalysing this...

There is no reason to think the Oracle knows every detail of every event which will ever occur.

We know that the Oracle knows V will achieve ultimate arcane power by making a deal with the devil(s)/demon(s) for improper reasons. There is no reason to think he looked beyond what he had too. Would he know what V would DO with that power, or WHY he made the deal? No, why would he?

He looked ahead, got a specific answer, and answered the question. That is all.

[Cornelius Grim]

This comic made me both happy and sad. Because now that Belkar is finally reaching for redemption, he's going to die either before, or just after, his redeeming moment.

Looking at things in a brighter way, at least now he has a chance to not suffer in the afterlife forever. He may still go to the Abyss, yes, but there's a chance he may go to Limbo. It's not like the people running the Chaotic Neutral afterlife are going to be so harsh as, say, lawful good Devas.

I really hope that Belkar can die happy. If not, I'll be sad, and have to eat a bunch of chocolate to make up for it... I like chocolate.

I want to go purchase a kittey now. And on an unrelated note, an allosaurus. :smallamused:

[Dr. Strangelove]

This comic made me both happy and sad. Because now that Belkar is finally reaching for redemption, he's going to die either before, or just after, his reddeming moment.

Looking at things in a brighter way, at least now he has a chance to not suffer in the afterlife forever. He may still go to the Abyss, yes, but there's a chance he may go to Limbo. It's not like the people running the Chaotic Neutral afterlife are going to be so harsh as, say, lawful good Devas.

I really hope that Belkar can die happy. If not, I'll be sad, and have to eat a bunch of chocolate to make up for it... I like chocolate.

I want to go purchase a kittey now. And on an unrelated note, an allosaurus. :smallamused:

If you get a cat, please rescue one from a "shelter" that kills the ones no one takes.

[Gilphon]

It bothers when people assume oracles and stuff aren't legit because they can be surprised.

The ability to see the future by no means implies you know everything that will ever happen; no more than the existence of memory implies you know everything that has ever happened.

No, more so, since future sight can easily be limited by rules far more arbitrary than the ones limiting memory.

Edit: And it's now occurring to me that the Oracle couldn't have warned the ABD about Soul splice even if he'd wanted to, thanks to the memory charm and the fact that it's doubtful she specifically asked for prophecy about that.

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

If you get a cat, please rescue one from a "shelter" that kills the ones no one takes.

just wanted to add my support for this

[kierthos]

As regards the Oracle not seeing the Familicide spell... He gets his oracular ability from a evil dragon. Evil doesn't always work together well. The IFCC is the exception, not the rule.

[Dalek-K]

just wanted to add my support for this

So is Belkar now the mascot for the Animal Shelters O_O

I can see him there with his daggers (or a pebble) "Adopt or see how well your organs can be used as floss for one of your friends (or a random person standing near by)"

[Cornelius Grim]

If you get a cat, please rescue one from a "shelter" that kills the ones no one takes.

If it were not for the fact that my father is allergic to adorable kittens, I would gladly do this. I'll ensure this is the way I get my cat, after I move out. Destroying cats is by no means a good thing. It's the type of thing Nale would do. :smallfrown:

[ORione]

As regards the Oracle not seeing the Familicide spell... He gets his oracular ability from a evil dragon. Evil doesn't always work together well. The IFCC is the exception, not the rule.

And even they scorned the idea that Evil is one big happy family.

[narwhal97]

I want to go purchase a kittey now. And on an unrelated note, an allosaurus. :smallamused:

I want to go hug my kitty! The allosaurus could be harder to find...

Such a good comic! I love that Belkar had to see what you do if you can't hurt anything... that you just have to deal with it. I agree, I really, really hope he gets to die happy!:smallfrown: