Magic is back, & fabulous

[Anderlith]

Don't lie everyone has contemplated what would happen if magic turned out to be real.

Well that is the point of this thread. What do you think would happen in magic was rediscovered? Sure, only a select few have the ability to innately cast magic, but the rest of us could still learn to cast as wizards. Do you think that society would collapse? Wars? Internment camps? Peace? Ecologically mother nature loving terrorists summoning badgers? What's your theory?

[SamBurke]

Oh boy.

AMFs would become commonplace.

All tech would be easy to replace (Eternal Wand of Sunlight for streetlights, True Strike for scopes, Overland Flight for a 747, Minor Image for TVs, etc, etc).

Dating services would sell Charm Person castings.

People would carry Rings of Spell Resistance like they'd carry Concealed Guns and such.

The Government would be in serious doo-doo.

Zombie movies would be easier to make, too...

[Kaun]

Dating services would sell Charm Person castings.

Thats like a dating service handing out Rohypnol



People would carry Rings of Spell Resistance like they'd carry Concealed Guns and such.

Where do you live? :smalleek:



The Government would be in serious doo-doo.

Ehh Governments are generally in the buisness of dealing with stuff when it comes along, i would class magic coming back as "stuff".



Zombie movies would be easier to make, too...

Hehe reminds me of that Bill Hicks joke about getting the elderly to work as stun doubles in action films.

[dsmiles]

Magic, when followed to its logical endpoint, results in the Tippyverse. I'll see if I can find a link. (This may take a while, Google's only significant links lead right back to the forums.)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If "real" magic were D&D Vancian magic, we'd either end up with the Tippyverse or a post-apocalyptic society, depending on the alignment of the people who reached 9th-level spells fastest. :smallamused: If it were some other magic system, it would really depend on the system. GURPS magic? Riddle of Steel magic? D&D psionics? Ars Magica magic? There are so many possibilities, and all of them would change the world differently

[Anderlith]

Let's go with a system more like Shadowrun, logical & limited from reality bending stuff. & also note that magic creatures are not coming back, that way we don't need to worry over the balance in the food chain from having dragons, & if eating griffin burgers are unhealthy

[Mastikator]

Society would plunge into chaos! People would be using spells on each other like crazy! Cats would live with dogs!

[Tengu_temp]

Life would get more convenient. Wizards would create magical products unavailable with current technology, and people would be able to use them. Spellcasters would be rare - just because everyone is capable of learning magic doesn't mean most of people would. Do you currently see everyone learning martial arts, hacking or advanced chemistry? All of those have the potential to mess your life as badly as powerful magic.

[Anderlith]

Personally I could see the media & society in general having some mass hysteria when it first happens (While a person may be intelligent, people as an group are retarded). Mages would be put into internment camps for "protection" much like the Japanesse were after Pearl Harbor. Magic related terrorism would result, for the "freedom of mages". At least one war. But after things cool down I can see textbooks full of magical theory & spells taught in college.Think of it, Robert Brown's Introduction to Abjuation Vol 2 or something could be a real thing. Invocation 101. Career mages for hire.

& crime would become much more interesting.

[flumphy]

We'd probably end up with something like the Marvel universe, only more depressing.

[mcl01]

I foresee a huge decline in the viability in the fields of math, science, and engineering. Why study physics when you can tell physics to shut up and sit down?

At the same time, the few who do still research the physical world merge science and magic to develop magitek and conquer the earth.

[Saintheart]

Ehh Governments are generally in the buisness of dealing with stuff when it comes along, i would class magic coming back as "stuff".

I think the point is that all of a sudden you've got Zone of Truth spells in place, not to mention Commune, Scrying and other stuff that makes it difficult for the government to hide stuff.

[Kaun]

Magic will arrive and people will be like "wtf run!" except for the porn industry who will come up with some new whacky never before available stuff to help them sell web advertising and subscriptions.

I imagine there will be a lot of magic related deaths and injuries caused by people experimenting with the basics.

Influx in hate groups and a spike in psudo-religous end off the world nut job rantings.

Youtube will be full of "How to summon Mountain dew" videos.

Large insurance companies will have more so called 'magical experts' on the payroll in two weeks then most government bodies will have in a year and phrases like "acts of god or Magic" will appear on the end of many contracts.

Some people will use magic to add proof to the bible.

Others will use it to disprove the bible.

It will take less then a week for spell book apps to be available for your smart phone.

Magical anti wrinkle face creams will now contain 38% REAL MAGIC!

[Kaun]

I think the point is that all of a sudden you've got Zone of Truth spells in place, not to mention Commune, Scrying and other stuff that makes it difficult for the government to hide stuff.

People as a whole will take a comfortable lie over and inconvenient truth any day of the week and destabilization of government is rarely fun for anyone involved.

+ your factoring that only one side has access to magic, your also implying that zone of truth will be accepted as a solid basis for ascertaining the truth. Finding out the truth isn’t the hardest part of the battle, its getting people to believe it.

[navar100]

Please report to the Ministry of Magic for violating the Statute of Secrecy. Ministry officials will soon arrive to confiscate your wand. A hearing shall take place to determine whether it will be returned to you.

Dolores Umbrage

[Anderlith]

I like what Kaun says about God/Magic arguments.

For everyone, please note that I'm talking about a more realistic magic, not D&D.

[Arbane]

For everyone, please note that I'm talking about a more realistic magic, not D&D.



I'm talking about a more realistic magic, not D&D.



realistic magic

:smallconfused:

Okay, to be slightly more constructive, a lot of it will depend on how magic is done. If magic comes from deciphering 9-dimensional math while juggling Kabalistic correspondences, most wizards are going to be nerds. If you get magic powers from making a pact with demons, expect that most spellcasters are NOT going to be well-adjusted, benign pillars of the community. If you get magic by taking a head-full of peyote and wandering out into the desert to talk to Coyote, the FBI may have trouble getting any shamans on the payroll. And so on.

[Ravens_cry]

I foresee a huge decline in the viability in the fields of math, science, and engineering. Why study physics when you can tell physics to shut up and sit down?
Simple , you work out how this magic tells the laws of physics as we know them to shut up and sit down. For example, a simple experiment to find out if the species of bat used for bat guano significantly affects the damaging effects of a Fireball spell.


At the same time, the few who do still research the physical world merge science and magic to develop magitek and conquer the earth.
Magitek is just engineering under a different set of rules. Engineers already rule the world.

[KineticDiplomat]

Well, the usual human response sequence to the new and unexpected:

1) Be terrified of it.

2) Fail at repressing it.

3) Make money off of it

4) Weaponize it

5) MAKE LOTS OF MONEY off of #4.

6) Perhaps investigate its other uses.

7) Be terrified of it again.

8) Accept it.

[Eldan]

Simple , you work out how this magic tells the laws of physics as we know them to shut up and sit down. For example, a simple experiment to find out if the species of bat used for bat guano significantly affects the damaging effects of a Fireball spell.

Magitek is just engineering under a different set of rules. Engineers already rule the world.

Yes. Magic doesn't suddenly invalidate the scientific method. It maybe invalidates certain laws of physics, depending on the actual system used. Thermodynamics, maybe. Maybe we have FTL information transmitted via telepathy.

Doesn't mean you can't have physicists researching it and Engineers trying to build stuff with it.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes. Magic doesn't suddenly invalidate the scientific method. It maybe invalidates certain laws of physics, depending on the actual system used. Thermodynamics, maybe. Maybe we have FTL information transmitted via telepathy.

Forget telepathy, Greater Teleport to Mars is FTL travel and therefore time travel.


Doesn't mean you can't have physicists researching it and Engineers trying to build stuff with it.
Most certainly not.
Just remember kids, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!"

[Eldan]

Are you sure? D&D teleport takes a few seconds. Is Mars more than a few lightseconds away?

[pjackson]

I like what Kaun says about God/Magic arguments.

For everyone, please note that I'm talking about a more realistic magic, not D&D.

So you mean stage magic like we already have?
Anything else is just as completely unrealistic as D&D.

[Anderlith]

So you mean stage magic like we already have?
Anything else is just as completely unrealistic as D&D.

I mean a force of nature that while doing extraordinary things, it is still a force of nature & has laws, it also works in tandem to physics & all other natural forces.

[Eldan]

Or in other words: not immediately overthrowing both half the laws of physics (only a few, and infringing on a few others), and not immediately overthrowing society.

[Ravens_cry]

Are you sure? D&D teleport takes a few seconds. Is Mars more than a few lightseconds away?
Quite (http://www.universetoday.com/14824/distance-from-earth-to-mars/) a bit. At the barest minimum it's about 3 light-minutes away from Earth and can be at most over 22 light-minutes.
Space is big.

[Eldan]

5 light minutes on average. 3 minutes at it's shortest. Daamn.

Should have been able to at least ballpark that given that I know offhand how far the sun is away, really. But I'm feeling lazy.

[SamBurke]

Thats like a dating service handing out Rohypnol



Where do you live? :smalleek:


I note the presence of firearms in my avvie. "This is TEXAS! My florist carries a gun!" So yeah. I also note that it's non-violent, thus making even more sense than a Liscensed Firearm.

[Eldan]

"Sir, we can't give you a wand of fireball without a six day waiting period..."

[Ravens_cry]

5 light minutes on average. 3 minutes at it's shortest. Daamn.

Should have been able to at least ballpark that given that I know offhand how far the sun is away, really. But I'm feeling lazy.
It's rather gives one a heady sense of perspective.
The fastest thing in the universe, light, so fast that it was instantaneous for the vast majority of history and the second nearest planet is minutes away.
The nearest star besides our own is years.
Wow, just wow.

[Emmerask]

Well that is the point of this thread. What do you think would happen in magic was rediscovered? Sure, only a select few have the ability to innately cast magic, but the rest of us could still learn to cast as wizards.

The problem would be, how do you learn magic if there is no one to instruct or books to read about (the now working) magic.

So there would be two scenarios to consider that are very much different,

The first would be that not only magic is rediscovered but along with it everyone gets some knowledge of how to actually use magic or how to study it to become proficient.

Then I think it could be anywhere from a utopian world to total chaos.

If on the other hand only a select few know how to use that magic I would think that they would want to keep this to themselves and it would in principle end in a 2 class society, those who know magic, ie the ruling class
and those who don´t, the worker class.

/edit this does not mean slavery, just that the majority of the not knowing magic people would be lower to middle class people, ie for them there are very little changes to what it is now.

[Anderlith]

The problem would be, how do you learn magic if there is no one to instruct or books to read about (the now working) magic.

So there would be two scenarios to consider that are very much different,

The first would be that not only magic is rediscovered but along with it everyone gets some knowledge of how to actually use magic or how to study it to become proficient.

Then I think it could be anywhere from a utopian world to total chaos.

If on the other hand only a select few know how to use that magic I would think that they would want to keep this to themselves and it would in principle end in a 2 class society, those who know magic, ie the ruling class
and those who don´t, the worker class.

/edit this does not mean slavery, just that the majority of the not knowing magic people would be lower to middle class people, ie for them there are very little changes to what it is now.

Well, we have many texts dealing with magic that have survived. The Keys of Solomon, some of the things Crowley wrote, etc. It could turn out that some of these grimoires are real.

On the other hand we could just do as humans do & experiment. We were not born to the knowledge of magnets & gravity, but we learned. & as always we could start with fire (Burning Hands much?)

[Emmerask]

But how much is the avg person allowed to experiment with the ebola virus, or enriched uranium, it is restricted to certain people for a reason, I could very easily see government restricting experimentation in magic for very similar reasons... if it can be controlled that is of course.

[Kaun]

I note the presence of firearms in my avvie. "This is TEXAS! My florist carries a gun!" So yeah. I also note that it's non-violent, thus making even more sense than a Liscensed Firearm.

I actually had to go and look the laws up on concealed weapons in Texas and ... :smalleek: is all i really have to say.

Side note tho, a ring of magic resistance is more like wearing a bullet proof vest then carrying a concealed weapon.

[Randomguy]

We'd improve magic constantly, the way we improve science constantly, because it would help us make money. Magic would be used for: The military, generating energy, delivering packages and messages, self defence, creating food and water, transportation, healing the sick, espionage, counter espionage, fixing things, construction and tourism (by scrying places where you'd like to go.)

With all those areas where magic would be helpful, it would probably be taught in schools and universities.

It would probably also be very strictly regulated: Most evocations and enchantment spells would probably be made illegal.

Magic users probably won't rise up and become the ruling class: the rest of the people would revolt if they tried, and they'd have trouble being unified.

Sorcerers would probably be envied by wizards, since they don't need to study as much.

[Gnaeus]

Let's go with a system more like Shadowrun, logical & limited from reality bending stuff.

I think it would be an immediate worldwide geopolitical revolution (similar to what happens in the Wild Cards series). If you are using things like Shadowrun as a model, indigenous magic using traditions, many of which have historically been oppressed, are suddenly going to be vastly more important. Animists in North Africa, Shamans on reservations, aboriginal tribes, these folks suddenly have the strongest "Technolgical" base in the world. Whichever religions can use this magic will have huge waves of converts.

[Eurus]

Thats like a dating service handing out Rohypnol

Actually, a company that charmed two willing people to each other would be interesting...

[Kaun]

Actually, a company that charmed two willing people to each other would be interesting...

I guess there would be situations where two people who didn't like each other but were willing to be charmed into liking each other for the purpose of a relationship would arise enough to warrant a company who offered the service.

I forget now but does charm still work if the target knows its being cast on them?

[Re'ozul]

I always consider magic that would precisely follow the 3.5 system way too expensive.

A simple continual flame would run you US$25000 at the current gold price.
A True Ressurection would cost 12.5 million.
Granted, a lot of things have no cost, but its still a fun perspective of how weird the d&d economy is with respect to the value of precious metals.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I mean a force of nature that while doing extraordinary things, it is still a force of nature & has laws, it also works in tandem to physics & all other natural forces.

Still too vague.

Or are all spellcasters Druids with at-will spells and no animal companion?

[Ravens_cry]

I always consider magic that would precisely follow the 3.5 system way too expensive.

A simple continual flame would run you US$25000 at the current gold price.
A True Ressurection would cost 12.5 million.
Granted, a lot of things have no cost, but its still a fun perspective of how weird the d&d economy is with respect to the value of precious metals.
Been able to bring someone who did not die of old age back from the dead no matter the condition is basically priceless. That it now can have a price means people who have the means will do so. For those willing to pay, a life insurance policy takes a more literal meaning.

[Anderlith]

Still too vague.

Or are all spellcasters Druids with at-will spells and no animal companion?

No. A force of nature is one of the building blocks of creation, like gravity. Not a Druid's "nature" magic.

Please everyone, I would like a serious-ish discussion about what the social/economic/political outcomes of such an event happening. Please also note that for the sake of the discussion avoid any & all planeshift, teleport, conjure out of nothing, raise dead, & scrying spells. As they would not theoretically fit into the "real" world

[Kaun]

Please everyone, I would like a serious-ish discussion about what the social/economic/political outcomes of such an event happening. Please also note that for the sake of the discussion avoid any & all planeshift, teleport, conjure out of nothing, raise dead, & scrying spells. As they would not theoretically fit into the "real" world

well this thread is done.

[Chilingsworth]

Please everyone, I would like a serious-ish discussion about what the social/economic/political outcomes of such an event happening. Please also note that for the sake of the discussion avoid any & all planeshift, teleport, conjure out of nothing, raise dead, & scrying spells. As they would not theoretically fit into the "real" world

Ok, then what exactly would "fit into the real world?" You're not leaving all that much.

Let me see if I can list everything that's left:

Abjuration magic: So, people could be better protected against danger, maybe. The resist energy and protection from elements spells alone could be useful for extreme climates and some hazardous working conditions (like steel mills and firefighters.) Protection from Arrows could augment bullet reistant armor at least until enchanted guns became commonplace. Also, this school would hold the key to controling magic, via dispel magic, etc.

Conjuration magic: This school would be severely gutted by your restrictions. MAYBE healing magic would be available, if the spontaneous healing didn't count as "conjuring something from nothing." Teleportation would be out. If healing magic is available, it would revolutionize medicine. Otherwise, the impact of this school would be minimal.

Enchantment: Would be useful to people looking to manipulate others, be they people looking for a date, politicians, or police/intelligence operatives seeking information.

Evocation: Other than permancy and contingency, this school wouldn't find widespread use. Afterall, we're already pretty good a blowing things up, which is almost all evocation does otherwise.

Divination: If scrying is out, then this school is also significantly weakened. It still holds two keys for insitutionalized magic use, though: read magic and detect magic.

Illusion: Would be useful for entertainment, epescially in live performances. Also could be used to protect secrets from unwanted observers.

Necromancy: Would be useful in gathering information from corpses and in "biological" warfare, that's about it.

Transmutation: Combined with magic item crafting, this would see alot of use. Wheather as support magic in the field, disguises for varrious uses, or worked into weapons and other items.

There, is that a good start?

EDIT: In the real world, basically everyone is extremely low level, the most convincing estimates I've read for simulating real people put the cap at lv 5. Unless this somehow changes, we'd never see any of the real powerful stuff, or even as much use for the weaker spells since they wouldn't last very long, nor would individuals be able to cast many of them in a day.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No. A force of nature is one of the building blocks of creation, like gravity. Not a Druid's "nature" magic.

Please everyone, I would like a serious-ish discussion about what the social/economic/political outcomes of such an event happening. Please also note that for the sake of the discussion avoid any & all planeshift, teleport, conjure out of nothing, raise dead, & scrying spells. As they would not theoretically fit into the "real" world

So it's like Avatar: TLA?

[SamBurke]

I actually had to go and look the laws up on concealed weapons in Texas and ... :smalleek: is all i really have to say.

Side note tho, a ring of magic resistance is more like wearing a bullet proof vest then carrying a concealed weapon.

XD. My work here is done. But note, there are some states that require you to carry OPENLY if you're carrying, in some situations...

[Kaun]

Evocation: Other than permancy and contingency, this school wouldn't find widespread use. Afterall, we're already pretty good a blowing things up, which is almost all evocation does otherwise.

For most of the Evocation line Anderliths no conjure out of nothing rule cancels out.


Illusion: Would be useful for entertainment, epescially in live performances. Also could be used to protect secrets from unwanted observers.

I am not sure if this counts as conjure out of nothing considering the illusion isn't physically there but it is visually or audibly something out of nothing so it is probably a no go as well.

[Ravens_cry]

No. A force of nature is one of the building blocks of creation, like gravity. Not a Druid's "nature" magic.

Please everyone, I would like a serious-ish discussion about what the social/economic/political outcomes of such an event happening. Please also note that for the sake of the discussion avoid any & all planeshift, teleport, conjure out of nothing, raise dead, & scrying spells. As they would not theoretically fit into the "real" world
It's hardly magic then, now is it? After all, magic, pretty much by definition, is impossible to fit into what we know of real world physics.

[Anderlith]

For most of the Evocation line Anderliths no conjure out of nothing rule cancels out.



I am not sure if this counts as conjure out of nothing considering the illusion isn't physically there but it is visually or audibly something out of nothing so it is probably a no go as well.

OR you know we could excite air molecules & cause a fire, you could summon the fire of a campsite to engulf your enemies & such. Options are there you just have to be inventive.

When I say conjure out of nothing. I mean that you cannot say "Alakazam" & have a hot potato. Even Harry F'ing Potter has rules against conjuring something out of nothing. You cannot create or destroy creation, only shift it from one thing to another.

[Kaun]

OR you know we could excite air molecules & cause a fire, you could summon the fire of a campsite to engulf your enemies & such. Options are there you just have to be inventive.

When I say conjure out of nothing. I mean that you cannot say "Alakazam" & have a hot potato. Even Harry F'ing Potter has rules against conjuring something out of nothing. You cannot create or destroy creation, only shift it from one thing to another.

... eh your a bit to all over the place on your magical theory, if were limited by "only stuff that exists" or "manipulating nature to get desired affect" whats our radius of influence?

The planet?

The solar system?

Everything?

And if you can summon fire from a campsite then why is teleportation out, i mean its all just mater transfer?

Maybe a list of spells to work with for the thread would be good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In 10 billion years, transfer the Sun to a different part of the universe before it explodes, then, before all the light reaches Earth and runs out, they transfer another star like the Sun is transferred from another part of the universe. We've saved the Earth and everyone on it, put the Sun in the middle of empty space where at most it will destroy some meteors and stars where no life can survive, and the only price to pay is about twenty seconds of complete darkness and severe temperature drops, but that can be fixed by everyone making a fire to huddle around as they wait. Although with the super hot core in the middle of the planet, would the temperature severely drop?

[byaku rai]

I'd probably wind up as an Artificer (already studying Engineering in college). And then I'd go into service creating ways to merge magic and technology. Think about what things like wall of iron (if you look at it as transmuting the elements already present in the ground into iron rather than summoning iron, like what happens in Fullmetal Alchemist, this is theoretically possible with magic) could do for architecture, or more precisely for the creation of easy, affordable housing.

Prestidigitation, a level 0 spell in D&D, easily allows people to do quite a few nifty things. In fact, that's the whole point of the spell.

There was another thread similar to this a while back... Something about what would happen if the real world suddenly became D&D-ified. Tippyverse was also mentioned there, and I really want a link for that.

[GoblinArchmage]

Do you mean, like, ritual magic, like in The Key of Solomon. That isn't really instantly conjuring something out of nothing, considering every spell in that book requires so much preparation and detailed steps that are almost impossible to do 100% correctly. Still, though, it's kind of a fun thing to flip through just for the hell of it, if you can find a copy anywhere.

[flumphy]

In 10 billion years, transfer the Sun to a different part of the universe before it explodes, then, before all the light reaches Earth and runs out, they transfer another star like the Sun is transferred from another part of the universe. We've saved the Earth and everyone on it, put the Sun in the middle of empty space where at most it will destroy some meteors and stars where no life can survive, and the only price to pay is about twenty seconds of complete darkness and severe temperature drops, but that can be fixed by everyone making a fire to huddle around as they wait. Although with the super hot core in the middle of the planet, would the temperature severely drop?

Would the core even still be all that hot in 10 billion years?

I don't think it really matters, though. I don't think 20 seconds of no heat would affect the atmosphere all that much anyway. It's not a vacuum, after all.

[Anderlith]

I'd probably wind up as an Artificer (already studying Engineering in college). And then I'd go into service creating ways to merge magic and technology. Think about what things like wall of iron (if you look at it as transmuting the elements already present in the ground into iron rather than summoning iron, like what happens in Fullmetal Alchemist, this is theoretically possible with magic) could do for architecture, or more precisely for the creation of easy, affordable housing.

Prestidigitation, a level 0 spell in D&D, easily allows people to do quite a few nifty things. In fact, that's the whole point of the spell.

There was another thread similar to this a while back... Something about what would happen if the real world suddenly became D&D-ified. Tippyverse was also mentioned there, and I really want a link for that.

Me too. I love engineering & I'd love to have another tool to play with.

If magic were to let us have proper battery power without much of the weight of our own batteries, I would so make myself a suit of power armor.

[Coidzor]

I'm now imagining a joke RPG where magic is powered by fabulous rainbow unicorn powers. It's... It's pretty epic, I'm not going to lie. Sort of like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic crossed with sheer AWESOME! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zzoAnovhQ#t=4m12s)

[Ravens_cry]

OR you know we could excite air molecules & cause a fire, you could summon the fire of a campsite to engulf your enemies & such. Options are there you just have to be inventive.

When I say conjure out of nothing. I mean that you cannot say "Alakazam" & have a hot potato. Even Harry F'ing Potter has rules against conjuring something out of nothing. You cannot create or destroy creation, only shift it from one thing to another.
Mass and energy are equivalent. This is one of those "forces of nature" things. Exciting air molecules with only your mind wreaks all havoc with thermodynamics and is, technically, just as much "something out of nothing."

[Anderlith]

Mass and energy are equivalent. This is one of those "forces of nature" things. Exciting air molecules with only your mind wreaks all havoc with thermodynamics and is, technically, just as much "something out of nothing."

A conversion of energy. "Mana" into Heat.

[Mastikator]

What is "mana" and where is is located?

[byaku rai]

Me too. I love engineering & I'd love to have another tool to play with.

If magic were to let us have proper battery power without much of the weight of our own batteries, I would so make myself a suit of power armor.

Magitek Power Armor ftw. I love it so much, I've determined to let any player who can come up with basic working schematics for it in a D&D game just have it.

I'd think magic would be a new force, like gravity, except undetectable except via itself. It would allow for the transformation of one energy form to another, or even the simple movement of energy from position to position (that's how you'd get fireballs and such, although it would wreak merry hell with the thermal energy in the surrounding environment). In slightly more complicated forms, it would allow the manipulation of matter similarly to energy (see: alchemy). [/insufficient physics knowledge]

If we're going the ritual magic route, it's probably going to end up quite similar to FMA, albeit with more Apocalypse from the Sky and less Wall of Stone. I mean, really, if it's going to take three days to prepare the stuff for a [I]fireball, what's the point in going small scale? It's better to spend a year for a level 9 spell equivalent than 3 days for a level 3. And then, we get the magitek robots/golems who can mass-produce the ritual circles...

And then, about 200 years later, the Fallout game series happens irl, but with magic. (if there isn't a good fanfic like this out there, there should be. NOW.)

[Roderick_BR]

Life would get more convenient. Wizards would create magical products unavailable with current technology, and people would be able to use them. Spellcasters would be rare - just because everyone is capable of learning magic doesn't mean most of people would. Do you currently see everyone learning martial arts, hacking or advanced chemistry? All of those have the potential to mess your life as badly as powerful magic.
This. Humanity's inherently lazyness would be a natural control on magic. I imagine actual magic would be far harder and more complicated than just picking up a list and saying "I'll learn this, and this... and this other..." It's presumed to be harder than everything else in the world, even so-called "sci-fi" tech. Even in Mage: The Ascension, it requires a special kind of mindset to understand how reality can be affected, that is not simply attainable for most people.

Incidently, that's the reason that I don't buy the "my character learns everything he possible can to survive his adventures better" excuse for over-ly optmized characters. But that's a can of worms for other threads.

[Sith_Happens]

Yes. Magic doesn't suddenly invalidate the scientific method. It maybe invalidates certain laws of physics, depending on the actual system used. Thermodynamics, maybe. Maybe we have FTL information transmitted via telepathy.

Doesn't mean you can't have physicists researching it and Engineers trying to build stuff with it.

I actually devised an experiment a while ago to determine which law of thermodynamics telekinesis violates:

1. Have a closed system, or as close as you can get to one, containing the following:

a. An object to be levitated.
b. A raised platform on which to place the object telekinetically.
c. Super-precise thermometers affixed to various parts of the system, especially the starting and ending point of the aforementioned object, and possibly on the object itself.
2. Have a psychic/wizard/whatever move the object from the floor to the raised platform.
3. Record all of the thermometer readings before, after, and preferably also during the levitation process.

If any of the thermometers go down, then most likely the Second Law of Thermodynamics was just violated: Ambient heat was converted into gravitational potential energy without the presence of a temperature gradient. If they all stay the same or any of them go up, then most likely the First Law of Thermodynamics was just violated: the additional potential energy and/or heat was simply created.

...Actually, I just realized, there's always the possibility of it using rest energy. I wonder how sensitive a scale you would need to measure just enough of a mass decrease to lift an object a few meters...

[JohnnyCancer]

Oh boy.
Dating services would sell Charm Person castings.


Or they could go for the less rapey route and cast an Extended Eagle's Splendor instead.

[Eakin]

This. Humanity's inherently lazyness would be a natural control on magic. I imagine actual magic would be far harder and more complicated than just picking up a list and saying "I'll learn this, and this... and this other..." It's presumed to be harder than everything else in the world, even so-called "sci-fi" tech. Even in Mage: The Ascension, it requires a special kind of mindset to understand how reality can be affected, that is not simply attainable for most people.

Incidently, that's the reason that I don't buy the "my character learns everything he possible can to survive his adventures better" excuse for over-ly optmized characters. But that's a can of worms for other threads.

Yeah, the only place you're going to see a difference is in places where magic is a cost effective alternative to existing technology, or offers something that's actually impossible right. Magic missle is no more effective than a handgun in a real combat situation. If the really epic stuff is in play, I'm going to say this takes us down the road to apocalypse. If someone CAN put in 10 or 15 years of study to crack the planet in half with their mind, eventually someone will. Effectively every psycho on earth now has no material limits to building an arsenal on nukes

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Magic missle is no more effective than a handgun in a real combat situation.

Actually, magic missile falls into the category of "things that are actually impossible right now"--while a magic missile wouldn't have the stopping power of a combat rifle, the ability to automatically hit people regardless of cover would be invaluable in an urban combat scenario. A better example would be something like burning hands or scorching ray, because those can both be duplicated (or outdone) by mundane flamethrowers, where the flamethrower's larger fuel capacity makes it better than the one-shot spells despite its increased weight and bulkiness.

[Anderlith]

What is "mana" and where is is located?

Mana is that force of nature that fuels all magic. It's like the electromagnetic forces, or the strong & weak nuclear forces, or gravity. Its return/rediscovery is the basis of this thread.

[Anderlith]

Actually, magic missile falls into the category of "things that are actually impossible right now"--while a magic missile wouldn't have the stopping power of a combat rifle, the ability to automatically hit people regardless of cover would be invaluable in an urban combat scenario. A better example would be something like burning hands or scorching ray, because those can both be duplicated (or outdone) by mundane flamethrowers, where the flamethrower's larger fuel capacity makes it better than the one-shot spells despite its increased weight and bulkiness.

SWAT would no longer have to deal with hostage situations. Just missile the perp in the eye & be done

[Ravens_cry]

Mana is that force of nature that fuels all magic. It's like the electromagnetic forces, or the strong & weak nuclear forces, or gravity. Its return/rediscovery is the basis of this thread.
What is the source of this mana?
Does someone who expends a lot 'mana' need to eat more to compensate? If not, why not? Why not conjure a baked potato out of thin air?
The energy needs to come from somewhere if you re going to keep within the laws of thermodynamics.

[Anderlith]

What is the source of this mana?
Does someone who expends a lot 'mana' need to eat more to compensate? If not, why not? Why not conjure a baked potato out of thin air?
The energy needs to come from somewhere if you re going to keep within the laws of thermodynamics.

What is the source of gravity? Mass attracts mass but that is not the source, it is an effect of gravity.

[Ravens_cry]

What is the source of gravity? Mass attracts mass but that is not the source, it is an effect of gravity.

The source of gravity is mass. What gives mass? That is not known, yet, the Higgs bosun is theorized to be the source, but any energy from falling balanced by the energy it takes to get it back to the original position.
That is, you can't make an eternal waterfall.
Mana without a plausible energy source is an eternal waterfall.

[Anderlith]

The source of gravity is mass. What gives mass? That is not known, yet, the Higgs bosun is theorized to be the source, but any energy from falling balanced by the energy it takes to get it back to the original position.
That is, you can't make an eternal waterfall.
Mana without a plausible energy source is an eternal waterfall.

The Merlin Bosun.

I am not here to tell you how magic exists, do you want me to explain the digestive system of a centaur? Maybe the mating practices of a manicore?

[flumphy]

The Merlin Bosun.

I am not here to tell you how magic exists, do you want me to explain the digestive system of a centaur? Maybe the mating practices of a manicore?

Well, it's kind of hard to discuss this when on one hand you demand realism and then on the other demand we defy thermodynamics.

[Coidzor]

I wonder whether there's any commonality in the general rules of magic in fiction that serve to both give it limits and skirt the realism issue altogether.

Or if anyone can recall any that seemed sound?

[flumphy]

I wonder whether there's any commonality in the general rules of magic in fiction that serve to both give it limits and skirt the realism issue altogether.

Or if anyone can recall any that seemed sound?

I think the concept of mana as a supernatural force that permeates everything and can be discharged to produce magical effects qualifies, if I undertsand your question correctly. That was ripped off from Polynesian beliefs, I think.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, it's kind of hard to discuss this when on one hand you demand realism and then on the other demand we defy thermodynamics.
Indeed, I was going to say something to this effect.

[dsmiles]

Indeed, I was going to say something to this effect.Which is why I got out early. Magic defies our concept of reality. I really can't envision it any other way. Even using the "Any technology advanced enough appears to be magic" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicFromTechnology) trope, it still defies physical laws as we know them.

[NichG]

Sunlight is 1400 watts per square meter of 'ambient' energy. Maybe in this system the sun also emits similar amounts of energy in the form of mana particles or what have you, that can be tapped. Yes, this requires doubling the solar output, but since you've just added a new force and new types of particles, you could also say that the energy density of matter is just twice what people thought it was, or that the sun is converting matter to energy at twice the efficiency people thought (which is entirely reasonable if you have new reactions that can, say, break some of the symmetries that fusion and fission reactions must respect).

E.g. lets say 'mana' reactions weakly violate CPT symmetry and thus convert matter to antimatter. Heck, if you can do that, you don't even need a mana sun - just burn up very small amounts of matter in the environment of the wizard, and you pretty much have sufficient energy for just about any magical feat you can think of except for creating matter.

Thus a law (or nearly) of such a system might be 'You can teleport matter, conjure it from elsewhere, transmute things into other things, but you pretty much can never create matter from nothing.'

[Hiro Protagonest]

supernatural force that permeates everything and can be discharged to produce magical effects qualifies

supernatural force that permeates everything

force that permeates everything

force

I knew it!

[Coidzor]

...I'm not sure, but I think I'd probably be very Farnsworth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhnN54tHjkI&feature=related)if midichlorians turned out to be right.

[Chilingsworth]

I wonder whether there's any commonality in the general rules of magic in fiction that serve to both give it limits and skirt the realism issue altogether.

Or if anyone can recall any that seemed sound?

The Salvation War (http://http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=29) kinda does it. At least, it has things happen that seem to be magic, but then attempts to offer adequate explinations for them. The effects are limmited to interdimentional travel, energy attacks, and effects on the nervous system ranging from what seem like glammers, to extrodinary infulence, to shutting down the automatic functions of the brainstem and killing people.

[Kaun]

Indeed, I was going to say something to this effect.

Yeah this got old after the 4th time we were told magic doesn't work that way for this thread.

[Mastikator]

Mana is that force of nature that fuels all magic. It's like the electromagnetic forces, or the strong & weak nuclear forces, or gravity. Its return/rediscovery is the basis of this thread.

Ok. Mana is a physical force, like gravity.
How does it interact with things?

Edit- I should clarify what I'm asking. I'm not asking why does it work or how. Just the same basic understanding that we have off gravity, electromagnetism and strong & weak nuclear forces. (mass attracts mass = gravity, positive charge attracts negative charge = electromagnetism, etc, ??? attracts/repells ??? = mana)

[Ravens_cry]

Which is why I got out early. Magic defies our concept of reality. I really can't envision it any other way. Even using the "Any technology advanced enough appears to be magic" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicFromTechnology) trope, it still defies physical laws as we know them.
As we know them yes. That is a far, far thing from "unknowable". Even World of Darkness Mage, even if you take "belief changes the rules" to its absolute limit, there is a rule that is immutable, "Belief changes the rules".

[byaku rai]

As far as the magic missles vs firearms argument, magic missiles would be used in very specific scenarios, much like sniper rifles. At least, until some enterprising artificer/magitek engineer manages to create a rapid-fire version, at which point everyone within range of the wielder is screwed.

A lot of the limits on magic would have to do with how often it can be used each day. Personally, in my own version of magic, users would be able to use external energies to power spells, such as sunlight, ambient thermal energy (that's a big one), tectonic movements, kinetic energy generated by people across the world simply moving around, etc. This means that the only real limit would be on how "in tune" one is with those energy types, and how much of that energy they have stockpiled at a given time, which theoretically has an upper limit. Low-power magic would be usable very nearly at will, while more powerful spells and effects would impose a serious drain on those stockpiles. They could be replenished over time, of course, but in the middle of combat running out of energy for protective spells could easily prove fatal.

Alternatively, consider the possibility of an alternate dimension (call it the "Spirit World" just for convenience) bordering on our own. Perhaps magic is a force leaking from that dimension into this one, and something from our universe leaks into that one to maintain equilibrium. The discovery of magic could then be either the discovery of this Spirit World, or the coincidental crossing of some threshold in the leakage beyond which we can actually detect and manipulate the magic coming through. For the purposes of this thread, this seems like a sane path to take, as it allows for otherwise physics-breaking feats of magic.

[Anderlith]

You guys are asking me what to color a picture when all I'm asking you to do is to color between the lines. Just don't break the laws of physics & nature. State theories on how it could be done using whatever magical belief system you want. I'm not here to tell what color to choose, just choose one.

Hot tip. Evoke means to "call forth" there isn't anything about conjuring fireballs out of nothing. You evoke (call forth) fire.

Also Invoke means to "call in" so it would cover most buff spells or spells that transform objects. Therefore, invocation would be what most people consider "enchanting" for items

----Back on topic-ish
Well, if magic could be used to create a kinetic barrier, it would change how people would approach not only ballistic combat but physical combat as well

Not to mention open lock & fly would help B&E criminals way to much

[Mastikator]

We can't have magic if we break the laws of physics, at least not the current ones.
Especially not if there's no explanation of how said magic even works.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not to mention open lock & fly would help B&E criminals way to much

Fly breaks the laws of physics. -insert "your argument is invalid" here-

[Mastikator]

Ok here's how magic works: (because no one else is gonna step up to the plate)

There are subatomic particles called "Manatrons", these Manatrons have variable mass, charge and velocity. They are completely randomized and the sum is a zero effect on other particles.
It is later discovered that brains effect the attributes of the Manatrons, but using your brain isn't that simple as it require usage of specific parts of the brain in a specific pattern.
Eventually it's learned how to do this, it takes extreme amount of self control and training, but those who can do it can manipulate the Manatrons, they are said to have "Mana", the more mana the more ability to manipulate Manatrons.

With the manipulation of Manatrons you can simulate any other force on any other particle, creating quantum-teleportation en masse to teleport large objects (one atom at the time, all of them simultaneously).
Very few of the mana users, or "mage" (MAna GEometry) can do mana effects that are even visually observable, but in theory you can teleport, create any object, polymorph any object, make energies appear out of nowhere etc.

[Sith_Happens]

Just don't break the laws of physics & nature.

You do realize what the word "magic" usually refers to, right?:vaarsuvius:

Now, if you want to break a minimal number of physical laws, then the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the one to start with. There's very few things you wouldn't be able to do with a bit of imagination and the ability to make entropy go sit in the corner.

[Anderlith]

Fly breaks the laws of physics. -insert "your argument is invalid" here-

Tell that to the airline industry. They need to know.

[byaku rai]

My potential explanations feel ignored and neglected. :smallfrown: Is it cuz they're tl;dr?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tell that to the airline industry. They need to know.

I guess you could conjure up really powerful winds, but it wouldn't be easy flight. Unless you had a glider... So it's Avatar: TLA magic!

[Ravens_cry]

I guess you could conjure up really powerful winds, but it wouldn't be easy flight. Unless you had a glider... This is starting to sound more like Avatar: TLA.

Well, there has been things that fly without wings. Rockets, and things like the Flying Bedstead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Bedstead). A wizard who could create enough thrust to counterbalance their own weight and a bit more would be able to fly.
You still have the question of where the energy is coming from, but we already tossed that law of physics out the window.

[Anderlith]

My potential explanations feel ignored and neglected. :smallfrown: Is it cuz they're tl;dr?

No they are not being ignored. I'm just busy arguing with trolls. I have tried to comment on your posts though.

[Anderlith]

Well, there has been things that fly without wings. Rockets, and things like the Flying Bedstead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Bedstead). A wizard who could create enough thrust to counterbalance their own weight and a bit more would be able to fly.
You still have the question of where the energy is coming from, but we already tossed that law of physics out the window.

The energy comes from the caster, or from another source if the caster has the ability to do so. I'm not saying that it is possible for the caster to do the latter, if the rules of this new discovery forbid it, but I will leave that possibility open Physics are still in effect. An outside force is acted upon the casters allowing them to overcome the force of gravity. Therefore, flight

[Pokonic]

A idea that just came over me as one of the most horrific weapons that may come out of this thread: necromancy-inhanced nukes. Anyone want to be a radioactive deformed horror? Anyone want to live in a world with intangible spirits that leaves trails of radiation through solid matter? How do you think it would feel to have your flesh melt of your bones and feel every moment of it?
What about the inevitable radioactive wight swarms infesting the settlements not already wiped out or turned into hives of ghouls or zombies? What about the madman who, by testing the effects of this weapon on himself, eventualy creating a mutant, deformed Lich?

Gah! This is what I get for playing games of Fallout and Ebberon
the same time. I guess I need to curb my Adventure Time addiction as well.:smalleek:

[Hiro Protagonest]

A idea that just came over me as one of the most horrific weapons that may come out of this thread: necromancy-inhanced nukes. Anyone want to be a radioactive deformed horror? Anyone want to live in a world with intangible spirits that leaves trails of radiation through solid matter? How do you think it would feel to have your flesh melt of your bones and feel every moment of it?
What about the inevitable radioactive wight swarms infesting the settlements not already wiped out or turned into hives of ghouls or zombies? What about the madman who, by testing the effects of this weapon on himself, eventualy creating a mutant, deformed Lich?

Gah! This is what I get for playing games of Fallout and Ebberon
the same time. I guess I need to curb my Adventure Time addiction as well.:smalleek:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldokegrndv1qz4cuyo1_500.jpg

It's always good to be prepared.

[Ravens_cry]

The energy comes from the caster, or from another source if the caster has the ability to do so. I'm not saying that it is possible for the caster to do the latter, if the rules of this new discovery forbid it, but I will leave that possibility open Physics are still in effect. An outside force is acted upon the casters allowing them to overcome the force of gravity. Therefore, flight
Do you have any idea how much energy that would take if it quite literally "came from the caster"? Thrusting to propel yourself along is about the most inefficient method of flight there is, that's why a rockets tanks are so big for such a small payload. ou would make a hummingbird look like it was on a diet. The phrase "laws of physics are still in effect" is getting a bit thin, especially considering I am pretty sure telekinesis breaks a few law of physics of its own.

[Coidzor]

Tell that to the airline industry. They need to know.

Because Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)totally works the same way as jet engines propelling an aerodynamically designed shell. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you either have to control the air, a very rough form of flying without a glider unless you're a master at it, or send out a continuous jet of fire from your feet, propelling you like a jetpack, and also rather hard to control. Telekinesis can do the same as the fire jet. It's not gonna be like a bird, unless you have a glider.

[Anderlith]

Do you have any idea how much energy that would take if it quite literally "came from the caster"? Thrusting to propel yourself along is about the most inefficient method of flight there is, that's why a rockets tanks are so big for such a small payload. ou would make a hummingbird look like it was on a diet. The phrase "laws of physics are still in effect" is getting a bit thin, especially considering I am pretty sure telekinesis breaks a few law of physics of its own.

How do you know the power to fuel ratio of something that doesn't exist?

[Ravens_cry]

How do you know the power to fuel ratio of something that doesn't exist?
There is a certain minimum of thrust needed to lift a certain amount of weight. This takes a minimum amount of energy.
You said the "energy comes from the caster".
What is the only source of energy in the human body? Chemical energy from food, which has certain maximum energy density.
In my opinion, all this ballyhoo about the laws of physics is fairly unimportant. What is more important is that one is consistent with what rules one does break.

[Frozen_Feet]

If there's no breaking laws of physics, then any magic that's "rediscovered" is just technology that was forgotten, either something that can be extrapolated from known natural laws or from new ones yet unfound.

In both cases, I doubt any massive immediate upheavel would take place. Such discoveries would, most likely, be fairly isolated cases. If we haven't build or mass-produced it yet, that implies doing so wouldn't be exactly trivial either - most discoveries would take years, at minimum, to lead to practical applications, with possibly decades passing before reaching public use.

It isn't really possible to extrapolate further than that without knowing what specific "magical" artefact is in question, what natural laws it is based on.

Now, if "magic becoming back" means magic of myth suddenly starts working, this raises several questions: which myths, why was magic on hiatus, and so on.

Answer of "all myths" is not possible, as it logically paradoxical, and most likely the paradox would solve itself by different magical traditions negating each other, meaning there wouldn't be much of a change to the society as whole.

I doubt even discovery of D&D style magic would lead to rapid societal change - such theories seem to assume that many other facets of D&D ruleset would also spontaneously become true to allow for such rapid change.

Even if that was the case, the minimum starting age for wizards is quite large, and due to lack of prior knowledge, first Wizards would likely be old scientist with several class levels already, and very unlikely to gain more during their lives. Our first batch of ECL 1 wizards would take 17 to 21 years to train, and cantrips and 1st level spells hardly have much world-changing potential. I don't think they'd be likely to rise above level 6, limiting them to 3rd level spells at best.

[flabort]

Warning, wall of text
My interpretations (In 30 steps):

1) The person who discovers whatever natural force is like "HAI, KOO1, L00K @ WHAT I CAN DO!!!11!!11!1!!one", and have his friends video tape him, and get a Darwin Award doing so.

2) His "Friends" post the video on Youtube.

3) People are all like "That's so fake"

4) Somebody recreates the circumstances, manages to tell some other people about it.

5) The governments get worried, doesn't do anything yet.

6) As Youtube gets flooded with more discoveries, forums spring up dedicated to this "Magic", where people tell each other what they've discovered works through trial and error. Mostly populated by the kind of people who join forums, AKA, us nerds.

7) Some criminal gets his hands on this information from the forums, uses illusions for petty crime, gets caught.

8) this crime is publicized, and blown out of proportion by the media, and other criminals start using it for bigger crimes, like terrorism. Still no weaponized magic, fortunately.

9) The governments "Ban" magic, although they mess up when writing whatever addendum "bans" magic, and some rules lawyer figures out how to legally bypass them. The ban is quickly disbanded.

10) the government funds university scientists to study magic, to try and find ways to repress it, or make machines that use it.

11) "Magic" starts to get slotted into different rules of physics, and defined as laws of nature which "bypass" certain minor laws, and a "system" for defining how to do what is formed, although incomplete. It gets defined as "technology", but until it is further understood, the "inaccurate" name "Magic" is officially applied.

12) The video game industry picks up on it, incorporates various devices that manifest magic into their latest "next gen" system. Uses illusions and various tactile feedback, not mind-reading, yet. Such is beyond the new "Technology" used to make these systems.

13) Someone finally figures out how to suppress magic in certain areas. Governments fund massive drives to install anti-magic devices in government zones.

14) someone figures out how to beat the anti-magic fields, governments just give up, hope for the best.

15) somebody weaponizes magic, a simple pain spell, based off of the tactile feedback VG companies are using. offensive magics become commonplace in crime and terrorism, anti-criminal and crowd control magics created to suppress weaponized magic.

16) The US army picks up on hearing about weaponized magic, pays big bucks to have weaponized magic researched further. Magic-focused forums are carefully watched and monitored, some being shut down completely.

17) The first mind-to-mind communication takes place, magic enthusiasts jump on it before criminals, scientists, or the government can ruin it, avoid mentioning it online, and start talking about magic and magic like stuff solely through telepathy, to avoid anyone ruining it.

18) Somebody snitches anyway, to either Microsoft, Nintendo, Apple, or Sony, resulting in magic-fueled video gaming becoming telepathic, gamers become even more fat and lazy.

19) The government, army, and scientists pick up on telepathic magic though video games, just around the same time criminals do. Cashiers purposely make financial errors "willingly" in criminal's favor. Banks and big stores put big money into researching anti-magic security devices again.

20) Somebody uses magic to heal a wound. A scratch really, but this is devoured by Big Pharma, and doctors, and magic enhanced drugs come out. Upon the discovery of magic enhanced drugs, dopers and addicts enhance the other kind of drug with trippy illusions and other types of magic.

21) As more healing type magic is discovered, magic replaces certain types of minor surgery, such as plastic surgery, and used to augment major surgery, such as open-heart transplant. Brain Transplants are made possible.

22) Someone tries to use healing magic to heal a brain-dead person. magic has advanced to the point that they understand the exact symbols needed, and the person is brought back to life. Not undead, but...

23) inspired by the media coverage of the guy being brought back to life, an amateur enthusiast tries to do the same with his pet dog. Doesn't work, still no undead, but the dog explodes with gore, ensuring it can't be brought back, even by a professional doctor/wizard.

24) Somebody realizes that, we're using machines to make magic (he's probably an avid gamer/nerd), a common theme in fantasy is using magic to make machines. Why don't I try to make a machine? First animated object is created, probably just something useful at the time, like a whisk to stir batter while he's busy.

25) Animated objects quickly escalate. They aren't intelligent, yet, but it's not hard to "program" a robodog/golem to seem intelligent. After all, we already have "intelligent" vacuum cleaners, and fighter jets.

26) Somebody makes the brilliant connection of using the magics used to bring somebody back to life by re-starting their brain, modify it a bit, and try to make a golem actually intelligent by giving it a "brain". Creates sentient nonbiological life.

27) somebody (a psycho terrorist, no normal psycho, or sane terrorist would do this) uses the magics used to animate a golem, and give it intelligence, on a corpse, and uses a self-replicating or sympathetically infectious spell to make it so that and dead bodies nearby are also reanimated. the undead almost wipe out a whole city, but the army manages to arrest the creator, use anti-magic on all the zombies, and destroy the corpses. anti-magic research accelerates.

28) With all the major stores/businesses interested in anti-magic, and/or magical security, and magical products, it becomes somewhat easy to replicated anything. NASA uses it to augment space travel, create atmospheres only 10 feet high on massive platforms in space, making it so that you get open-air spaceships. Airtight containers for traveling the vacuum become less expensive/needless. As well, all sorts of magic defenses become available, creating a new breed of door-to-door security salesmen.

29) Anti-crime and terrorism magic finally passes criminal activity. It can't stop all activity, but it manages to stabilize it. Life becomes as normal, as it is now, but with ease of life greatly improved. Countries still fight, Canada still has cheap medicine, gamers still rot in their basements, roleplayers still create massive situations for their fictional characters to beat, only now they communicate mind-to-mind, and use brilliant illusions rather than paper and minis, Stores still sell the latest novelty, only shoplifting has become tenfold as difficult, people still need to eat, only now their beef has been grown IN SPACE!, fed magi-genetically enhanced grass and grains, and people have beat death.

30) because people have beat death, overpopulation becomes a worry. the atmosphere is extended, and people start living on huge floating structures, some of the materials used to make these taken from earth, some from mars, some from the asteroid belt. The earth triples in radius, and because it's so layered, it's surface area is a thousand fold what it is now. As well, oil becomes pointless, as people are now using magic (a kind of SCIENCE!) to fuel everything. Everything is "green", and all pollution has been moved to the center of the sun. But otherwise, life is normal.

[Frozen_Feet]

My problem with that interpretation is, once again, that it assumes magic is something a layman can do practically by accident, instead of a skill that takes years and years to learn and master, like would be reasonable.

The steps I posit are:

1) Some anthropologist notices a connection between magical tradition X and certain events.

2) After several years of research, he becomes convinced he's onto something. Publishes a papar.

3) The paper is sneered at, widely thought as a joke. It makes the news on few tinfoilhat websites, but due to the public's mistrust of such sites, only wackos believe in it while the theory's credibility is undermined by this "unfavorable" attention.

4) Some wackos try to optimistically replicate findings of the original scientist. They fail at scientific rigority and can't separate any real findings from their over-eager interpretations of ordinary events.

5) Depressed by his ridicule, the original scientist commits suicide. :smalltongue:

6) Years later, some other anthropologist finds his papers and sees if there was anything to it. More years later, he publishes his own paper on the subject, but it too gets dismissed as pseudoscience due to the outrageousness of the subject material.

7) Out of spite, the scientist takes part in James Randi's million dollar paranormal challenge. To the astonishment of everyone, he passes, and is given his million dollars... but overall, the event is hushed and not widely reported, as shocked scientist start to check things and want to do so in quiet. Rumors starts to circulate.

8) A year later, victor of the Paranormal challenge is announced, along with what he did and how. A lot of layman skeptics refuse to believe their ears. Youtube and evening newspapers positively explode from sudden influx of event reports involving "magic".

9) In the next few years, number of anthropology students increases exponentially, because magic has made it sexy again. Of course, only a tiny fraction makes it to be researchers on the subject. Some five years later, formal magic is starting to shape into a field of its own, separate from anthropology.

10) Decades later, first practical applications of magic are released into the public. Magic, per se, is not - it remains the job of select few, for the same reasons advanced molecular biology is the job of select few. Magic becomes accepted as a fact of life among people, even if it's not understood any better than before, and subsequently loses its sexiness. In time, world-changing innovations are made, just as with LASER or Theories of Evolution and Relativity, but overall, life continues. Even a two centuries from its discovery, a significant portion of the world's population is without magic-infused conveniences and none the wiser. Mankind might or might not destroy itself / set itself back by centuries in the interim regardless of magic.

---

Because, consider this:

If you were to search the net now, how many stories and videos of the paranormal would you find? Stories and videos which are, allegedly, true? How many superstitions are still believed and considered a reality by millions of people.

Yeah.

How do you suppose you can distinquish a real paranormal experience of some random person, from all the fake paranormal experience of loads and loads of random persons? Especially if they fundamentally claim dips on the same event!

For all I know, right now, ghosts and ESPs are a reality, and Million dollar Paranormal challenge is an elaborate hoax to lure in and capture budding supernaturals so they don't do anything incredibly stupid. Think about it: it's the perfect way to remove those who'd use their powers out of greed from the circulation. None of the really powerful supernaturals take part, because they're in on the joke. No-one ever seems to pass the test, because even if they did, they'd just be filled in and told to stay quiet for the sake of public order.

[Mastikator]

Why is it more reasonable that magic is hard to learn rather than easy? You haven't explained how magic works. Speculations are meaningless and you're only working based on pure prejudice and bias. If you make up a magic system from scratch (like I did) it would in the very least be axiomatic and internally consistent.

[Emmerask]

Because if magic was easy then it would happen by accident, it being hard explains why it does not.
If we take magic as being always there and only rediscovered which I think was said in the first post.

[Frozen_Feet]

Magic is hard, because skills are hard. Beyond the most trivial abilities, becoming competent at something takes hundreds of hours of practicing - becoming an expert takes thousands. Even the most talented persons only become good by practice. There's no such thing as instant expertise.

Furthermore, the whole concept of magic being either discovered or rediscovered requires that we did not possess that knowledge priorly. Since the knowledge was lost in the first place, it can't be something trivial or easily replicated. Unless such information is magically imprinted to everyone's brain, all people save for those few who discover evidence of magic would have no idea what to do. No idea at all how magic would work.

Let's talk about examples:
Look at electricity, for example. Your home is likely surrounded by electronic equipment, but if they break down, can you fix them? Do you have in-depth understanding on how, say, your computer works? Could you make a computer on your own, without premade components and readily available instruction?

Even today, there are few invidual persons who could do all that. An electrician would likely not have enough theoretical understanding to make components from scracth - an engineer would not have enough manual skill to put them together. If you find such person, chances are they're well past thirty in age, and have been on the field for decades. You just don't accumulate necessary expertise to do that any sooner.

Nevermind that electronics need specific materials, which may not be available. Now, I understand if you'd like to think magic as wholly immaterial - pure knowledge. But if you need, say, a specific toxin to get yourself in right state of mind, a lot of people would have no opportunity whatsoever to even begin experimenting with magic simply by the virtue of where they live, or how wealthy they are. There are still millions of people today completely without electricity, or electrical conveniences, for the same reason, even though electricity was discovered two centuries ago.

But let's look at something nearly immaterial, for contrast: martial arts. Almost anyone can become adept in them - the oppurtunities required are dismal. You need your body and some modicum of health. Verily, most humans on Earth fullfill those qualities.

But how many masters of MAs you see in your everyday life? Are you one yourself? Much fewer people take interest in MAs than would be physically capable, and even smaller percentage will actively push to develop them. Those who actually advance the field are people who started training young, and trained hard for decades.

You probably know of Bruce Lee, right? But off the top of your head, how much of his important ideas can you recall concerning MAs and the human body? As you are now, could you even begin to replicate the stunts he routinely did?

As a rule of thumb, new things don't enter public consciousness and skill pool untill some invidual, through his own hard work, makes them famous. After this, it'll take years for others to catch up in their wake. Only after that can a field advance.

And most people never catch up. This is why not everyone you meet on the street has a black belt, degree in electronics and PhD in theory of relativity. Sure, they might have some superficial knowledge on the subjects, but nowhere near enough to actually experiment or advance those things themselves.

Of course, you can dismiss all of this and veer off from the point where I said "unless this knowledge is magically imprinted in their brains". Afterall, magic can do anything, right? I haven't defined it well enough to say it can't.

I have, however, pointed how actual human learning processes work. Unless the newly-found magic is as trivial as moving your hands and the elements needed to do it as abundant as air, people won't spontaneously become masters at it. That just doesn't happen.

[Anderlith]

Why is it more reasonable that magic is hard to learn rather than easy? You haven't explained how magic works. Speculations are meaningless and you're only working based on pure prejudice and bias. If you make up a magic system from scratch (like I did) it would in the very least be axiomatic and internally consistent.

Mastikator, you do not need to have a magic system to theorize. The only rules are not to break reality. If you cannot do that please do not discuss. This is a theoretical discussion not a "build your own system" thread.

[Mastikator]

If speculating purely on prejudice and bias and flimsy ideas stolen from popular culture is good enough for you then yes, you don't need a system. But then there's no rules to what magic can and can't do. It would just become "what if all people became omnipotent" discussion.
But if that's cool with you...

[Coidzor]

My problem with that interpretation is, once again, that it assumes magic is something a layman can do practically by accident, instead of a skill that takes years and years to learn and master, like would be reasonable.

Why not both?

Just doing magic does not mean doing it well or doing it safely. Or, indeed, doing it in a way that will get consistent results or that stumbling upon a bit of random magic will allow any kind of stable basis to go exploring from there.

The setting of the Wiz Biz by Rick Cook before the end of the first book shows off something like that, where not only are there tiers of magical talent but there's also magic that can be used by anyone who just makes the right noise.


Mastikator, you do not need to have a magic system to theorize. The only rules are not to break reality. If you cannot do that please do not discuss. This is a theoretical discussion not a "build your own system" thread.

A theoretical discussion of how breaking reality would alter reality with breaking reality banned.

And you think that's simpler than laying something slightly more formal in terms of ground rules other than personally nixing something if it falls outside of your largely unstated preferences and biases? :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

Yeah, I mean, if we are not breaking any rules of physics, how is it magic? At least thermodynamics will almost certainly be violated.

[jseah]

How about this:
Magic breaks one and only one real-world rule.

It is not time symmetric.

By Noether's Theorem, this means it breaks the 1st law of thermodynamics.
By extension, the 2nd law is now meaningless.

And conservation of momentum is gone in the systems that matter, if you can make energy out of thin air, you can dump all your excess momentum into that energy-turned-matter and shoot it out the side.


If magic is also automatable (like usage of steam or electricity), you get this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11917759&postcount=24

But with the energy and material sections flipped in order. (that one assumed easy 3.5-like magic, in which creating objects out of thin air is easier than creating energy)

[Mastikator]

Restricting the number of rules of physics doesn't actually tell us anything about what magic is and what it can do.

And unless you got that you have NO GROUND on which to speculate on what magic can and can't do. If it can do anything, even if not breaking any laws of physics, is basically omnipotence.

[Anderlith]

Or it could be that the energy used to cast spells is more powerful than rocket fuel. It could be that this mana comes from another dimension & magic users tap into it to cast magic. It could be that what makes magic difficult is that your body acts as a filter for the energy & if you are not careful you can be killed by it. Not to mention you will need to learn spells.

It could be that spirits, that are energy beings, live among us. As non-physical beings they see the physical world as a very interesting place & try to breach the veil between the worlds. This could explain ancient beliefs in angels, demons, djinn, totem spirits & maybe even ghosts (being transcendent human spirits). As energy beings they have a greater success at channeling magic because they are a purer filter.

This could also explain sorcerers as they could be extremely good filters so they do not struggle to channel magic, this ability could be genetic & once a desirable trait, but when magic went away or such, it was forgotten & the gene was bred out of most humans.

[jseah]

Restricting the number of rules of physics doesn't actually tell us anything about what magic is and what it can do.
Yes, that is true.

But without establishing the fundamental rules of magic (in this case, mathematical symmetries), you can't anywhere at all.

Let's say we take that one. Perhaps then, we make magic be a bunch of particles that occupy no space and are everywhere in the universe, and have two energy states. When it flips from the high energy state to the low one, stuff happens. (say induceable by some outside factor or trigger)

Unlike everything else, low energy state magic "decays" to high energy state magic randomly, not unlike how unstable elements undergo radioactive decay. Except this "decay" produces energy from nowhere. Hence the non-time symmetric portion.

-----------------------------------------
Immediately, we see one possibility, which is that the "stuff happens" when it goes from high to low could also be the same "stuff happens" that makes magic go from high to low.
Very similiar to a laser.
And the triggers could be some real world phenomena as well, although not strictly necessary.

If many different "stuff happens" can happen from magic going from high energy to low, and which precise "stuff happens" is dependent on which exact trigger, then it is possible that this cascade can process information. And be Turing complete.

Then it becomes possible to organize "stuff happens" into useful macro effects by essentially programming the ever-present magic to do things in the real world (since some of the end-point "stuff happens" have real world effects instead of merely being more triggers and can be made to occur through a specific cascade).

----------------------------------
If then, we continue to speculate, that living things are partially made out of this magic. Since presumably these "stuff happens"-es can be useful and evolution will use everything it gets its fingers into, then it is not implausible that living things require magic to survive and more or less run on magic. (or at least assisted-in-living by it)

Furthermore, it is also quite probable that since magic can cause cascading effects that propagate outwards from the original trigger in a controllable manner, that life will have figured out how to use it.

Tada, classical fantasy magic. Colour the details in to taste.

------------------------
Eg. in Anderlith's scenario of magic suddenly appearing, the particles of magic aren't all-present. The solar system has just recently run into a patch of them. Of course, in that scenario, no life uses magic before, and thus nothing can use it. (and therefore, all uses of magic will be due to machines using it)

[GungHo]

I don't think it really matters, though. I don't think 20 seconds of no heat would affect the atmosphere all that much anyway. It's not a vacuum, after all.
No... otherwise we'd all freeze to death every night.

20 seconds of no solar gravity well is probably the more entertaining problem. Things won't "fly off" or anything, but it'd be interesting to see if that sort of orbital preturberance had any effects beyond just moving things "out" a few meters.

[NichG]

The key element that makes magic 'magic' for me is that with magic, people are innately equipped with the necessary tools (modulo a few minor add-on components) to personally control the forces involved, rather than with technology where, even if you know how everything works and are a master of all forms of engineering, you're still going to have a hard time if you're stranded on a desert island.

A magic user can go read a book about some new theory of the universe, say 'aha', and immediately gain some new portion of personal power, even if small (where immediately could be literal, or could involve a few weeks of study).

A scientist can go read a book about some new theory of the universe, say 'aha', and start making calculations, but (especially for advanced stuff) he can't do much with it without a lot of tools and external devices.

The key element here, I think, is will. Technology is the result of a universe where human will is irrelevant to physics. Magic is the result of a universe where human will somehow matters.

So one way you can resolve the 'magic breaks/does not break the rules of reality thing' is: The laws of physics are what they are. Magic is the part of it that makes human will couple to the dynamics of things. That connection can't break any conservation laws or thermodynamic laws even, but it makes it so that things experience different forces and interactions within those laws based on the will of nearby people.

So what are examples of things you could do, preserving all conservation laws and thermodynamic laws?

- Speed up or slow down existing chemical reactions (cause someone to drop dead because their biology doesn't work, cause a candle wick to burst into flame by making it oxidize rapidly enough to heat to burning, etc).

- Cause a shattered cup to spontaneously reassemble by simultaneously spontaneously dissolving a large block of salt in water. The energy and entropy are provided by the dissociation of the salt into aqueous ions.

- Cause two macroscopic objects of roughly the same mass to trade momentum (simultaneously burning a small amount of fuel to produce the needed entropy and energy).

- Seriously mess up computers, or even control and other devices that use weak electrical signals to function with only a very small amount of fuel use.

- Charm someone by causing the release of endorphins in their brain.

- Getting information out of things is probably really easy (read out the material composition of matter, temperature, etc)

Personal-scale teleportation is mostly out: differences in energy and momentum will generally be huge, so you'd need massive reservoirs of the same. Healing is going to be really tough because you need to know where to put things. Big flashy effects require big fuel sources, so fireballs are not going to be as popular as shutting off someone's respiration chemistry. Illusions are more likely to be via visible light effects than mind control, but solid illusions are in principle doable if you have a good momentum reservoir (something with huge mass, so the energy requirements are low). Telepathy is probably easy (since will affects physics, will affects physics affects will is probably not too bad), but domination might be hard.