Monk + <insert> + Assassin Build Help

[Stront]

I'm working on an order of assassins in my Homebrew world and need some help coming up with a progression for them. The concept is the order starts out as Monks around level 1-4. This order will be Lawful Neutral and are known for killing with their bare hands (no equipment required).

After they hone their bodies as natural weapons this order will end in the Assassin PrC when they can qualify.

What I'm looking for is some ideas to fill in between Monk and Assassin. I like the progression of Monk to level 4 just for the 1d8 damage with unarmed damage but this isn't a huge requirement as 1d6 isn't too shabby either.

Keep in mind I'm looking for a detached yet wise killer, who does not let their emotion factor into their job. They are bred to be living weapons that kill by order of their leadership without thought or malice.

[Safety Sword]

Rogue is a natural fit with assassin.

Skills are a nice fit, sneak attack stacking is good too.

[Stront]

Rogue is a natural fit with assassin.

Skills are a nice fit, sneak attack stacking is good too.

Hmm, I guess Rogue 1, Monk 4, and Assassin would work too. They recruit promising street orphans into their order more often than not.

[hex0]

Monk 2/Factotum 3/Assassin X would work. Kung Fu genius/Carmendine Monk for INT synergy. Brains over Brawn makes you a little less MAD for your Monks.

Psychic Rogue and/or Psychic Assassin are a little more exotic (and possibly better)

[mootoall]

Unarmed Swordsage works to fill both Rogue and Monk mechanics and flavors.

[hex0]

Unarmed Swordsage works to fill both Rogue and Monk mechanics and flavors.

But do they have the prereq. skills for assassin?

[Urpriest]

I assume you're houseruling Assassins to not require evil alignment?

[Stront]

I assume you're houseruling Assassins to not require evil alignment?

For this order and this order only, yes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Move silently and Hide right? Yep they have them.

[JaronK]

Unarmed Swordsage could do this without even taking Assassin levels... or Monk levels... and it would be better than both while being perfectly in theme. Just focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers.

JaronK

[T.G. Oskar]

Rogue or Factotum work fine, but do consider a few things regarding Monk.

First, choose Invisible Fist over Evasion. Especially if a Rogue; the latter also gets Evasion at a pretty early level, so you'll want the 1/3 levels invisibility effect Invisible Fist grants you. That way, you can take advantage of delivering a Sneak Attack while using a superior form of invisibility. Second: have you considered the fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana (also on the SRD)? Some can be pretty interesting even if they force you down a bit on your choice of feats.

Using Rogue nets you quite a bit of good skills, and Monk already has Hide + Move Silently so they got the stealth area covered. Your choice if you want UMD, but it's really a formidable skill. You'll probably want Rogue 2 or 3 (for Evasion)/Monk 2 (for Invisible Fist), and you may want to stretch 3 levels of Swashbuckler (for free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike so that you take advantage of Int a bit better, and giving more reasons why to get a high Int character).

With Factotum, you'll definitely want Factotum 1/Monk 2/Factotum 4 (for Opportunistic Piety) or 7 (for Cunning Surge) before going Assassin. As mentioned before, you can take advantage of good Int that way; Kung Fu Genius (Dragon magazine) is a bit more appropriate than Carmendine Monk because the latter requires you to be part of a good monastery, which conflicts with the Assassin thing (especially if the idea is that the monastery is a cover-up for the assassin's guild); though the waiver of alignment may make it very useful in the long run. Both builds make some decent use out of Intelligence, though with a Rogue you may want a Swashbuckler dip for Int to damage with light weapons, the Unarmed Strike counting as one (the Arcane Stunt for Blur as a swift action 1/round can be pretty interesting).

Is it necessary to qualify ASAP for the Assassin PrC? While it can be pretty effective, you may want to stretch the entry point a bit to get other interesting stuff. As mentioned, both a Rogue entry and a Factotum entry benefit from a delayed entry (and no more than 2 levels in Monk, since you can reach 1d8 easily through Superior Unarmed Strike, although I believe you want to use SUS to get that 1d8 to a respectable 1d10). While the main benefit is really odd, Ascetic Rogue is easy to qualify for and allows you to get unarmed strike damage as a 4th level monk (or higher) while allowing you to get more levels from something else.

Finally, while thematically appropriate, make Rogue or Factotum the first levels, so you can take advantage of their higher skill point amounts. That way it'll be easier to qualify when the time comes.

Regarding Unarmed Swordsage; better go with regular Swordsage on that one. Swordsage doesn't play well with Assassin; the Swordsage lacks the required Disguise as a class skill and works better with a high Wisdom, which would provoke a mild MAD thing. Unarmed Swordsage only provide the hand-to-hand proficiency of the Monk in exchange for their skill at weapons and armor, and you could take advantage of a pure Swordsage with all their weapons and their use of Wis in light armor. Swordsage as a way to evoke that "assassin" feel is perfectly justifiable (Shadow Hand has nearly all you need for that mystic assassin build) but doesn't play well with Assassin (Swordsage requires Wis for AC and the DC of both Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, while Assassin requires more Int for their spells). So, either you make Wisdom a bit more useful (using Intuitive Strike and simple weapons to get your Wis to attack rolls) and let Int a bit down (and your spells suffer), or you get your Int to matter and let your Wis suffer (and hence your saving throw DC for Desert Wind/Shadow Hand maneuvers, plus your AC). Really doesn't play well, while the Monk dip alongside Kung-Fu Genius (or Carmendine Monk) makes a bit more sense for the Assassin.

[Godskook]

Unarmed Swordsage could do this without even taking Assassin levels... or Monk levels... and it would be better than both while being perfectly in theme. Just focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers.

JaronK

Assassin isn't that bad, although I agree with everyone else here on the monk vs. swordsage part. Swordsage fulfills all the monk flavor while also being *FAR* more flavorful for this concept in general.

@OP, you shouldn't 'standardize' the progression too much. Not everyone learns, progresses, or is gifted the same way. In practical terms, this allows you to have 'named' members with different progressions, even stuff like druid or wizard, to name a few. For reference, think the Thieve's guild from OotS. Mostly rogue, but they've had a fighter, several casters(often caster/rogue hybrids), and who knows what else.

A typical member of your group, though, would look like:

(Unarmed) Swordsage 5/Assassin X

Feat:
City Slicker(Races of Destiny)
Shadow Blade
Weapon Finesse

This gives him all the prerequisites without deviating from his core concept. He picks up Assassin's Stance at 5th level, making him a competent SA user. Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade solidify his attributes as Dex/Wis primary, Con/Int secondary, Cha/Str tertiary.

Other entries include the use of:
-Classes that get Disguise as a class skill
-Swashbuckler
-Swift Hunter

[Cespenar]

"Detached yet wise killers" sound like Unarmed Swordsage/Assassins specializing in any combination of Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand and Setting Sun to me. Lots of options there, both for fluff and crunch.

[mootoall]

The best Assassin spells are the ones that improve your stealth/buff you, not the ones that require saving throws. As such, you don't actually have that much Int dependency.

[Stront]

I didn't even think about swordsage but it seems like a solid option. As far as disguise goes, all members are given a magical item upon full membership into the order that acts as a Hat of Disguise. It is more alter self though for cosmetics and not an illusion.

Great feedback! I have some things to look over. Wouldn't an unarmed swordsage have lackluster unarmed damage though?

[Fouredged Sword]

A level one dip can get you that for free. I think it is a psion ACF maybe. I don't remember.

May be worth considereing for advanced members of the guild becuse psionics can be completely supressed, makeing them effective stealth spells.

[Little Brother]

I didn't even think about swordsage but it seems like a solid option. As far as disguise goes, all members are given a magical item upon full membership into the order that acts as a Hat of Disguise. It is more alter self though for cosmetics and not an illusion.

Great feedback! I have some things to look over. Wouldn't an unarmed swordsage have lackluster unarmed damage though?Read the adaption section of the Swordsage entry. It gets monk damage. So, yes, fairly lackluster damage.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To elaborate there is an adaptation for swordsages that trade armour proficiencies for monks' unarmed strike class feature (which includes IUS as a bonus feat and it's improved damage progression). While the base damage might be lackluster with the correct boosts and strikes it won't matter.
You can get up to three stat mods to damage as a single classed swordsage (Str, dex and wis).

[hex0]

The best Assassin spells are the ones that improve your stealth/buff you, not the ones that require saving throws. As such, you don't actually have that much Int dependency.

Bonus spells though. More Skills?

[Godskook]

Read the adaption section of the Swordsage entry. It gets monk damage. So, yes, fairly lackluster damage.

Sarcasm doesn't work too well when your audience just might take you seriously.

[mootoall]

Bonus spells are nice, but defnitely not necessary. 14 starting Int is more than enough. Edit: especially considering Swordsages get x6 Skill Points at first level.