Druid transformation based on environment.

[NOhara24]

Hello all,

Quick question, I'm planning on running a brief one-shot using pre-existing characters in a current campaign. In the party, there is a druid with an affinity for dinosaurs, wonderful. This doesn't bother me within itself, and it wouldn't bother me at all, if the campaign I was running wasn't set in a snowy (and thereby cold) city.

tl;dr

Does a druid who transforms into a cold-blooded animal in a cold environment suffer any penalties?

[Greenish]

No, except the possible environmental effects everyone gains.

Also, if RoD kobolds are any indication, the designers have some really whacky ideas on how cold-blooded creatures react to different temperatures (apparently, heat slows their metabolism and cold speeds it up :smallconfused:).


[Edit]: There probably were dinosaurs adapted to colder environments. Fluffy feathers are a nice insulator. :smalltongue:

[flumphy]

A lot of scientists believe that many dinosaurs were warm-blooded anyway, so even if cold-blooded creatures did take a penalty (they don't) it wouldn't necessarily apply to your druid.

[Killer Angel]

If you feeling mean, you can apply the cold dangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#coldDangers) but setting the limits differently, due to the creature's cold blood.
At that point, the druid will use a 1st lev. slot for Endure Elements: problem solved.

[ericgrau]

The general view according to wikipedia is that dinosaurs are warm blooded. There was a debate 50 years ago, but I think that went out when they decided dinosaurs aren't actually lizards at all.

General cold dangers still apply, and a tropical dinosaur sure would need a big sweater. Or the PC selects a cold region dinosaur, depending how much paleontological theory you allow in your games, and problem solved.

[Killer Angel]

The general view according to wikipedia is that dinosaurs are warm blooded. There was a debate 50 years ago, but I think that went out when they decided dinosaurs aren't actually lizards at all.


:smallconfused:
The debate about whether dinosaurs were hot- or cold-blooded is still going on (http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/dinosaurcontroversies/i/warmblooded_2.htm).
Dinosaurs evolved from cold-blooded animals and evolved into warm-blooded animals. In the middle... there's room for any idea.
Some dinosaurs were fast, active, and lived in cool areas, side by side with hot-blooded creatures, while some others dinosaurs have plates probably used for the heat regulation (stegosaurus), usually related to cold-blooded reptilians.
The evidences for hot-blooded are maybe more solid than the ones for cold-blooded, but the issue isn't solved.

[Fizban]

Taking it further, I think the Serpent Kingdoms web enhancement with the Saurials (anthropomorphic dinos) says that they start suffering cold dangers at a higher temperature, which is what I'd do. Frostburn and Sandstorm make examples of a number of modern day creatures that have built in cold or heat protection, but those are still adapted to multiple climates. If you want dinosaurs to be exclusive to certain climates then making them extra sensitive would work just fine, either by shifting their center point to the warmer side or counting everything as one step worse when they're not in the right temperature band. And then the druid would just cast Endure Elements like Killer Angel said, but at least you'll have the clarification.

I had actually expected the thread to be about limiting Druids to wild shaping animals from their home region, so this was different at least.

[NOhara24]

I had actually expected the thread to be about limiting Druids to wild shaping animals from their home region, so this was different at least.

Yeah...if I were the permanent DM for the group I wouldn't be letting him change into a dinosaur at all. Namely because they don't exist in the world we're in. His defense is "But my character went to the library and read about them all day!" but alas, however stupid his defense is, it's not my call to make.

More than anything I'd want to be realistic/fair to the party. He's already playing a druid, and thereby OP. I'm not going to enforce cold penalties on everyone for a more or less one-shot campaign, but if you go out of your way to turn into a cold-blooded creature? (For all intents and purposes.) Yeah I'm gonna have to do something about that. Cast endure elements? Great, I won't bug him anymore, that's the purpose of the spell. But otherwise, adhere to common knowledge. A polar bear would be better in the cold than something that can't regulate its own body temperature.

[ericgrau]

The evidences for hot-blooded are maybe more solid than the ones for cold-blooded, but the issue isn't solved.
Nor is much of anything so old, but at the very least there is little reason to automatically assume that dinosaurs must be cold-blooded, as the OP seems to be thinking. It's simplest to have them use the general D&D rules and move on.

[NOhara24]

there is little reason to automatically assume that dinosaurs must be cold-blooded, as the OP seems to be thinking.

Dinosaurs are reptilian. Reptiles are cold blooded. 2+2=4.

[flumphy]

Dinosaurs are reptilian. Reptiles are cold blooded. 2+2=4.

Birds are descended from dinosaurs. Birds are warm-blooded.

And most of the better forms are bird-like as opposed to reptile-like, are they not? (I may be wrong here. It's been forever since I played a druid.)

Sorry, but you seem to be abandoning logic in order to screw over this player. This is bad.

[Urpriest]

Dinosaurs are reptilian. Reptiles are cold blooded. 2+2=4.

Plus, people of typical 3.5 age were raised with Dinosaurs' warm-bloodedness treated as gospel. And it's rather unlikely that a D&D player wasn't into dinosaurs as a kid at some point.

[Greenish]

And most of the better forms are bird-like as opposed to reptile-like, are they not?If you mean body shape, yes, theropods count most of the best options among their ranks.


Also, because modern reptiles (which is not even a real taxonomical clade, just a convenient shorthand) are cold-blooded doesn't mean all of the related critters ever were. Besides, "cold-blooded" can mean several different things.

[BlueInc]

Dinosaurs are reptilian. Reptiles are cold blooded. 2+2=4.

You're just threatened by a strong theropod role model (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html).

[NOhara24]

Birds are descended from dinosaurs. Birds are warm-blooded.

Sorry, but you seem to be abandoning logic in order to screw over this player. This is bad.

So are modern reptiles, and they're cold blooded.

If I wanted to abandon logic and screw him over, I'd laugh maniacally and tell him "Rocks fall. Make a reflex save. DC 400." He has multiple ways to avoid a VERY minor penalty. The only thing I'm going to do is enforce cold penalties on him *if* he chooses to turn into a dinosaur, which is not unreasonable at all, given that there is evidence on both sides that dinosaurs could be warm or cold blooded. Especially considering if he's worth his salt at all he'll realize that there is a LEVEL ONE spell that can fix his problem. I just came here to see if there was an in-built mechanic or not.

[Urpriest]

So are modern reptiles, and they're cold blooded.

If I wanted to abandon logic and screw him over, I'd laugh maniacally and tell him "Rocks fall. Make a reflex save. DC 400." He has multiple ways to avoid a VERY minor penalty. The only thing I'm going to do is enforce cold penalties on him *if* he chooses to turn into a dinosaur, which is not unreasonable at all, given that there is evidence on both sides that dinosaurs could be warm or cold blooded. Especially considering if he's worth his salt at all he'll realize that there is a LEVEL ONE spell that can fix his problem. I just came here to see if there was an in-built mechanic or not.

Modern reptiles are not descended from dinosaurs, as anyone our age should be well aware.

[NOhara24]

Modern reptiles are not descended from dinosaurs, as anyone our age should be well aware.

Dammit Jim! I'm an assistant project manager! Not a biologist!

That being said, the other 95% of my last post stands.

[Killer Angel]

Nor is much of anything so old, but at the very least there is little reason to automatically assume that dinosaurs must be cold-blooded, as the OP seems to be thinking. It's simplest to have them use the general D&D rules and move on.

Fair enough. :smallsmile:


Sorry, but you seem to be abandoning logic in order to screw over this player. This is bad.

(leaving aside that there are evidencences also for cold-blooded dinosaurs)
He's not screwing his player. He's supposing a majority of cold-blooded dinosaurs, hence is wandering (for a sense of coherence in his setting?) if he should apply some additional penalty for extreme cold. A penalty that, as a DM, he's well aware that can be easily denied by a simple first lev. spell.

[NOhara24]

Thanks for the advice, and unexpected learning experience all.

Just to close this out, I spoke with the permanent DM (He's the one that encouraged me to have a "test run" as a temp-DM for a half-session or so.) and he likes the idea. Namely because it's a minor penalty, and the druid has multiple ways to get out of it.

Between that and it actually makes weather change serve a purpose aside from impeding movement through massive snowfall, or straight damage per hour through a dire storm.