Barbarian Codzilla

[ericgrau]

This seemed like such a simple idea that I'm surprised I haven't read of it before. Instead of having a pair of druids in any given high level party, why not have a druid X / power of nature hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) 1? The druid can share his wild shape with a barbarian or other full BAB class. Buff himself, buff the barbarian, have fun. Not only does the barbarian now have wild shape, he has rage and 4 more BAB than the druid (at level 14) for a whopping +7 more to attack rolls and grapple checks and 4-5 more damage per hit. Or a fighter with 10 extra feats, or a paladin with smite, or etc. Meanwhile the druid has natural spell in case the duo face anything that can't be rage-stomped.

The druid could also use power of nature to transfer his minor defensive class abilities such as poison immunity too since the barbarian is likely to be the front-liner of the pair.

It's a bit of a high level strategy but so are a lot of builds. At lower levels you have to make sure you pick feats & special abilities that translate well into your new form, so a lot of weapon-specific fighter feats are out. Barbarian or paladin may be the way to go unless you start at high level and don't explain your past. Or any other flexible class, like warblade I think.

[TroubleBrewing]

Works better with a Druid X/ Heirophant 1 build with Leadership. Rather than use a party member, use someone disposable. Like a cohort!

[ericgrau]

PCs have more wealth for shinier gear and are higher level though. That and leadership could be the answer to everything, assuming you don't have one of the many DMs that disallow it. Need an X in the party? Get leadership. Fighter 20 dueling a wizard 13? Leadership up a wizard 18 and end all uncertainty. Etc.

EDIT: Somehow in my edited post I think we are using the same logic yet come to opposite conclusions. Different goals lol.

[TroubleBrewing]

PCs have more wealth for shinier gear and are higher level though. That and leadership could be the answer to everything. Need an X in the party? Get leadership.

Higher level isn't as important when you can build your cohort to take maximum advantage of your Wildshape. (MoMF on a Cleric chassis? Yes please!)

Leadership IS the answer to everything. Dragon burning everything to the ground? Leadership for a Wizard! Army at your doorstep? Leadership for a Wizard! High level wizard ruining your day? Leadership for a slightly-lower-level-but-still-a-Wizard!

[Runestar]

The barb will likely have high physical stats already (between a good starting score, ability boost every 4th lv, str-enhancing gear and possibly inherent bonuses. Thus, the stats from wildshaping into an animal won't seem too attractive by comparison. Also, many of his gear (like magical armour/weapons) won't be carried over in wildshape, so he may actually end up weaker!

Likewise, the power of wildshape comes not from just the animal form, but the ability of the druid to still cast spells while in wildshape (which at higher lvs, pretty much lasts all day). Also, the druid loses less, because he will probably have dumped his str/dex at character generation, and be in a better position to take advantage of this form (wild eq that retain their properties in wildshape, buffs like bite of the werebear etc).

There is also the problem of heirophant being unavailable to druids before lv27 (read the prereqs again), and it not really being a popular choice as it does not advance spellcasting or improved a druid's existing class features.

All in all, I don't think it is as powerful a strategy as you are envisioning it to be.

[Feytalist]

There is also the problem of heirophant being unavailable to druids before lv27 (read the prereqs again)

Ah, the Knowledge (religion) bit. Never noticed that before. That's a bit silly really. Maybe just handwave it to religion/nature or something.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is easy to get knowledges on your class list.

[ericgrau]

Difficulties
I think you're missing the big picture, in that the barbarian's stats still are hugely above the druid's regardless of all that. Second the assumption is that the barbarian builds around this as much as possible, selecting as many feats and items as possible that work in both forms (fairly easy, especially for feats, just don't pick too much weapon specific, upgrade to wild armor later, etc), etc, and possibly focusing on the new form only as the level nears. Or starting in a high level game.

[flumphy]

You're assuming that someone is willing to make a character very dependent on someone else's character. I don't see that happening very often. What happens if you can't make it that week, or your attendance becomes spotty for whatever reason?

This is a neat idea, but it's better on a cohort.

[JaronK]

I think you're missing the big picture, in that the barbarian's stats still are hugely above the druid's regardless of all that.

Wildshape removes his stats.


Second the assumption is that the barbarian builds around this as much as possible, selecting as many feats and items as possible that work in both forms (fairly easy, especially for feats, just don't pick too much weapon specific, upgrade to wild armor later, etc), etc, and possibly focusing on the new form only as the level nears. Or starting in a high level game.

This part does work though. Yay Lion Totem.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

His ability scores go, his attack bonus, hp and damage are way higher. His overall stats are way higher. But I think we're thinking the same thing here and it is merely a confusion of terminology.

A cohort is a good second option, but coordinating with a fellow party member is ideal. Coordination is difficult, but at least it's plausible with a single friend, unlike trying to coordinate strategies with an entire party. In many gaming groups being allowed leadership might be less plausible.

[Jude_H]

The Druid has Bite of the WereX and Enhance Wild Shape. I'm not convinced it's going to be worse than the Barbarian at this.

If you're doing it, Divine Minion would probably be worthwhile for the Wild Shape platform character. Otherwise, any Wild Shape-specific build is going to have a long time to wait before it matures.

[Ernir]

You're assuming that someone is willing to make a character very dependent on someone else's character. I don't see that happening very often. What happens if you can't make it that week, or your attendance becomes spotty for whatever reason?

This is a neat idea, but it's better on a cohort.

What are you talking about? People play noncasters all the time.

[noparlpf]

Ah, the Knowledge (religion) bit. Never noticed that before. That's a bit silly really. Maybe just handwave it to religion/nature or something.

Whenever something has the prerequisite knowledge (religion), I usually pretend that knowledge (nature) lets it work for druids.

[flumphy]

What are you talking about? People play noncasters all the time.

There is a difference between assuming some of the multiple casters in a party will buff you some of the time and spending all your feats and WBL on the assumption that one particular player is going to work with you.

I mean, if that's what two people want to do and the DM agrees to it, great! On the other hand, I've seen multiple games under multiple DMs where co-dependent concepts were presented (usually a mount and rider pair.) And usually those concepts are turned down for the reasons I stated above.

Again, if you actually find yourself able to play it, great. I just wouldn't say it's far more likely to be allowed than leadership. As often as people ban leadership, I'd actually guess the contrary.

[ericgrau]

Makes sense from a practical standpoint. Though there is a 3rd option. Grant wild shape to whichever beat stick happens to show up that gaming session. He'll still have all the bonuses to hit, HP and damage mentioned. And most of his feats. He'll just be short on wildshape specific options. Mainly he'll be lacking wild armor. Keeping potions of mage armor on hand is one cheap option to at least give him something, or even giving out a loaner suit of wild dragonscale (so that you don't have to carry large amounts of metal on your person) and asking for it back afterwards. For practicality bring an extra character sheet with most of it already filled in with animal stats before the session.

Bite of the wereX, as insane as they may be, don't stack with items so the bonus is actually a little less. They also eat a combat action and a spell which might be true seeing or heal (for group versatility, having a beatstick and a caster). For example bite of the weretiger, what you'd be casting at the same time you take hierophant, gives an extra +4 to hit vs. a +4 strength item. The barbarian is at +7 above normal, on top of higher HP, without losing a precious action.

[Gnaeus]

Makes sense from a practical standpoint. Though there is a 3rd option. Grant wild shape to whichever beat stick happens to show up that gaming session. He'll still have all the bonuses to hit, HP and damage mentioned. And most of his feats. He'll just be short on wildshape specific options. Mainly he'll be lacking wild armor. Keeping potions of mage armor on hand is one cheap option to at least give him something, or even giving out a loaner suit of wild dragonscale (so that you don't have to carry large amounts of metal on your person) and asking for it back afterwards. For practicality bring an extra character sheet with most of it already filled in with animal stats before the session.


This seems fairly impractical to me.

On the one hand, you are talking about a high level druid, with the foresight and rules mastery to pull this combo off, buy all the gear and hold it ready for the melee, etc.

On the other hand you have your muggle. What are the likely muggles that might be targets?

A charge build? Probably bad. He probably already has pounce, he is probably already doing enough damage to kill what he charges. He loses the ability to use his winged boots or potion of fly. Probably worse off.

Battlefield controller? Can't (probably) use his spiked chain. His reach probably drops from 20-30 feet to 5-10 feet. Some of the workable options (like Treant form) cripple in other ways (dex too low to use his combat reflexes.) Much worse off.

Archer? Really bad with a bunch of invalid feats.

Rogue/Factotum/other sneak? You will probably never even get him to agree. Loses UMD, many skills, and winds up with low ac and hp in melee combat.

----------------------------------------------

Monk? Yes, this will help your monk, esp if he has improved trip/grapple.

TWFer? Cant twf as an animal. Can't use his weapons. But he may have been bad before, so still being bad doesn't hurt too much.

Sword and board tank? Much like the monk. He probably gets better if he hasn't spent too many feats on his fighting style.


So if you have a druid who wants to drop a level for this, and melee who have chosen a real trap option, this will help. If your melee are moderately optimized, this looks like it will hurt them.

If anything, I would call this one of those teamwork-oriented druid nerfs because your druid is outclassing your melee by too wide a margin.

[Godskook]

Wildshape removes his stats.

Although the question is, do they play that one by RAW, cause I know I don't, prefering to use Rich Burlew's rules, and that's what I understand to be a common rebalancing of a really bad idea.

[Runestar]

Bite of the wereX, as insane as they may be, don't stack with items so the bonus is actually a little less. They also eat a combat action and a spell which might be true seeing or heal (for group versatility, having a beatstick and a caster).

Note that the bite spells are personal range only, so the druid won't be casting them on the party barb or fighter. If the latter wants one, they will have to spend a standard action casting it from a ring of spell storing.

Stat-boosting items get subsumed into wildshape anyways, so a typical druid won't be wasting gold on belt of str or gloves of dex. Thus, they should get the full benefits. Plus, the bite-line of spells can be shared with a druid's animal companion, so the main reason to not cast one would be that said spells are banned for being too powerful.


His ability scores go, his attack bonus, hp and damage are way higher. His overall stats are way higher. But I think we're thinking the same thing here and it is merely a confusion of terminology.

Let's put it this way.

A lv20 barb has 32 str (base16, +5class, +6enhancement, +5inherent) and has 4 attacks with a powerful magic item. Do you think he benefits more from say, changing into a dire polar bear (39 str, 3 non-magical natural attacks, cannot wield weapons) compared to a druid with 10str (who can still stack bite of werebear on top for a whooping 55str?) Heck, if I want, I would rather wildshape my animal companion! :smalltongue:

His damage would be the same, because whatever he is attacking with would be replaced with the wildshape form's natural attack routine, identical to a druid's wildshape. Unless he turns into a form that can still wield weapons or something.

All in all, I see the barb actually becoming weaker. If this is a buff, it means his build stank to begin with.:smallconfused:

[Gnaeus]

Let's put it this way.

A lv20 barb has 32 str (base16, +5class, +6enhancement, +5inherent) and has 4 attacks with a powerful magic item. Do you think he benefits more from say, changing into a dire polar bear (39 str, 3 non-magical natural attacks, cannot wield weapons) compared to a druid with 10str (who can still stack bite of werebear on top for a whooping 55str?) Heck, if I want, I would rather wildshape my animal companion! :smalltongue:

His damage would be the same, because whatever he is attacking with would be replaced with the wildshape form's natural attack routine, identical to a druid's wildshape. Unless he turns into a form that can still wield weapons or something.

All in all, I see the barb actually becoming weaker. If this is a buff, it means his build stank to begin with.:smallconfused:

Exactly. The level 20 barbarian has also probably lost access to his flight item, his method for dealing with invisible opponents, his method for dealing with DR, his ranged attack, his mindarmor, maybe defensive options like rings or vests, etc..

[noparlpf]

Although the question is, do they play that one by RAW, cause I know I don't, prefering to use Rich Burlew's rules, and that's what I understand to be a common rebalancing of a really bad idea.

Where are said rules? I haven't seen them before and I'm interested.

[hex0]

Monk would be better as you could use their Unarmed Strikes while wild shaped. Big ol' bear form for a high level Monk=3 unarmed strikes, 2 claws, one bite. Easy grappler.

[Godskook]

Where are said rules? I haven't seen them before and I'm interested.

Here you go:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910