Self-inflicted criticals

[stack]

A few questions about attacking yourself (getting tricky with a binder binding Dahlver-Nar and using shield self to send half of all HP damage to a designated target):

I believe you can choose to attack yourself. If you do:


Do you hit automatically, or are you just flat footed?
If you hit automatically, can you choose to critical or not to critical automatically, or would you still have to roll your attack and hit the crit threat range then confirm?

[noparlpf]

I'd say you can just coup-de-grace yourself. Nothing's stopping you from cutting your own throat. But for that you'd need a high Fort save.

Edit: So the idea of the build is that you cut yourself and the same wounds appear on your foe?

[stack]

Normally the self-inflicted wounds would be unnecessary, but in a 1 on 1 fight with an opponent with less hitpoints and scary spells, you could take yourself to near negatives and kill them quickly. Or if they go invisible, incorporeal, etc., and you need a way to keep doing damage. Fringe application, but I wanted to check viability.

[subject42]

I'd say you can just coup-de-grace yourself. Nothing's stopping you from cutting your own throat. But for that you'd need a high Fort save.

You could also be undead, couldn't you? Or maybe use a talisman of undying fortitude?

[stack]

I don't think the fortitude save part of a coup de grace would apply to the opponent, only the HP damage. The risk of suicide seems a bit too high with that option.

[Curmudgeon]

No, the rules don't have any "hit automatically" options unless the target is helpless. The basic nature of the rules (aimed to model heroic victory, not masochistic self-cutting) prevent this. Since you're not helpless, you've got to successfully get through your own AC on each attack.

[Seffbasilisk]

Look at the text of Death Urge.

You can attack and automatically critical yourself.

[Teron]

Death urge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm) suggests that you can indeed auto-crit yourself.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

[Curmudgeon]

I'd say the fact that this requires a psychic compulsion makes it very clear that you can't automatically critical yourself without serious mind-affecting magic.

[Chilingsworth]

I was going to mention death urge also. Got beaten to it. Still, I'd think the hit would be automatic, or at least you hit on any roll that isn't a natural 1.

[lesser_minion]

Look at the text of Death Urge.

You can attack and automatically critical yourself.

Special case. Your DM might use that as an example of how to handle an attempted suicide, but by default it isn't. It's a way to handle that specific spell.

By RAW, there are no rules for attempting to commit suicide, only for what you do when some outside effect tries to compel you to do so. So you're going into undefined behaviour, and given that the context here is an attempt to misuse a special ability, I suspect that the player will find the DM's ruling somewhat unsatisfying.

Interestingly, the first paragraph of Death Urge actually lies. Here's what it says:


You plant a hidden death-urge impulse in the subject’s unconscious. On the subject’s next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end its life and attempts to do so.

However, the result will always be one of three things: attack self; move to nearest opponent and provoke an attack of opportunity; or do nothing.

A cleric who fails her save against Death Urge doesn't respond by casting Slay Living or Destruction on herself and intentionally bombing the save, even though such an act, if available, is by far the easiest way for her to kill herself.

If the actions of a character under Death Urge don't actually consist of using the most expedient means possible to end her own life, then does it even present a model for how a suicide attempt would work in D&D?

[Qwertystop]

I'd say it'd take 2 natural 1s in a row. Or maybe make a will save based on the damage you would take, if it would be fatal, and if you fail then you can't bring yourself to do it.

Auto-crit should be possible if you want to, but not mandatory.

[Zaq]

However, the result will always be one of three things: attack self; move to nearest opponent and provoke an attack of opportunity; or do nothing.

A cleric who fails her save against Death Urge doesn't respond by casting Slay Living or Destruction on herself and intentionally bombing the save, even though such an act, if available, is by far the easiest way for her to kill herself.

If the actions of a character under Death Urge don't actually consist of using the most expedient means possible to end her own life, then does it even present a model for how a suicide attempt would work in D&D?

To be fair, Death Urge does include a nice squishy "DM adjudication" clause allowing you to do something else that's obviously incredibly dangerous, like throwing yourself off a cliff (insert joke about how mid-high level characters can fall from orbit and stand up afterwards here) or into a fire (insert joke about nonmagical fire doing 1d6 points of damage here).

I actually find it kind of interesting when effects like that come up—things with the attitude of "if your GM wants to get creative, here are some ideas! If not, that's cool, here's some rigidly defined effects so this thing isn't useless."

[Person_Man]

If you happen to read Naruto, this is the precise character concept behind Hidan (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hidan), who basically belongs to a cult and binds the avatar of his god Jashin, and then commits suicide in order to kill his target. Hidan is basically immortal though, so "killing" himself and his target has no real effect on him.

Because it's so high risk, as a DM I'd basically be fine with this combo.

[Talentless]

Because it's so high risk, as a DM I'd basically be fine with this combo.

Pretty much this. In any other situation other than 1v1, actually lowering your HP to hurt another single target is silly and going to get you killed. Not to mention that even in 1v1 it is risky, because you rarely know the EXACT HP that the DM happened to roll/set the opponent at.

[Teron]

I'd say the fact that this requires a psychic compulsion makes it very clear that you can't automatically critical yourself without serious mind-affecting magic.
I don't think that's clear at all. I understand that, by strictest RAW, the text of death urge is only applicable to a character under the effects of that power, but common sense says it's a good way to handle a character trying to hurt himself for other reasons.

[stack]

All very interesting. I'll send a link to this thread to the DM for clarification. Hopefully it won't come up, but it's possible, so I want to know if the option is on the table.

[lesser_minion]

To be fair, Death Urge does include a nice squishy "DM adjudication" clause allowing you to do something else that's obviously incredibly dangerous, like throwing yourself off a cliff (insert joke about how mid-high level characters can fall from orbit and stand up afterwards here) or into a fire (insert joke about nonmagical fire doing 1d6 points of damage here).

You mean this bit?


At the Dungeon Master’s option, a subject close to an immediate and lethal hazard such as a cliff or a fire might hurl itself off the cliff or into the fire instead of striking itself with a weapon.


It is there, at least in the text of the power as given in the XPH, but it still doesn't allow for anything beyond natural hazards -- there isn't any provision here for a character to swallow her own death spell.

It's worth noting that not all death spells can be used for suicides -- for example, a phantasmal killer won't work, because of the way disbelief works (a character with proof that an illusion isn't real doesn't actually get a save to disbelieve it, she just does so automatically).