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View Full Version : Team Rocket's Blasting Off Again: How Do You Handle Comical Recurring Villains?



Zaq
2011-09-22, 09:05 PM
So, the comical incompetent evil fellow (or, just as often, group of the same) is a well-known trope, and the urge to implement such a thing in a D&D setting is understandable. The problem, though, is that most adventurers tend to Orb of Fire first and ask questions later . . . and a fair number of players tend to take it quite personally when their kills get away, as well. In 3.5, past the first couple of levels (basically, once the players get their hands on any sort of respectable pile of magic, though creative use of skills works in a pinch), villains who want to fight and run away have to be pretty on-the-ball to actually get away from our chosen group of rich, violent hobos. How, then, does one reconcile the need for incompetent buffoonery inherent in the "comical recurring sub-villain" archetype with the tactical (and usually magical) savvy needed to actually get away from a group of adventurers long enough to, y'know, recur?

I don't have a single easy solution. Here's a list of the goals for the comical villain squad (hereafter "CVS"), as I loosely envision them:

Have the players notice them, meaning that they're more than just a couple of clowns blowing themselves up in the background. Even if their plans (which are so cunning, you could brush your teeth with them!) backfire in hilarious ways with uncanny frequency, if they don't have at least a small effect on the players, then it's nothing more than the GM narrating a cutscene while the players watch (im)patiently, no matter how funny it is in your head. The CVS, then, needs to come in contact with the players, at least indirectly, while bearing in mind that players like to have autonomy and perhaps interrupt what the CVS is doing.

Spectacular failures. The GM, obviously, has the power to make any plan go comically awry, and given the level of nudge-wink inherent in the CVS, most players won't demand to see the die rolls that led to whatever goes wrong. That said, if there isn't at least a slightly plausible reason for the events to go as they do, the players will likely tire of it quickly. Basically, the CVS needs to have the resources to start their plans, even if they never have the resources to finish them.

They may be comic relief, but if the CVS is expected to be a recurring thing, they need the ability to get away from a group of adventurers who may be itching to roll initiative. This is the trickiest part so far; players can be damn hard to get away from, and you have to reconcile the buffoonery inherent in the CVS with the tactical savvy necessary to cut and run when the players pick up their d20s. You also have to account for whatever getaway resources the CVS has in reserve ("so, uh, if they can just teleport away like that, why did they have to sneak around in the bad camel suit?"). Sure, NPCs might have access to resources that PCs don't, but someone's going to ask "if they had this ability, and they were smart enough to use it NOW, why weren't they smart enough to use it THEN?"

There must be contingencies for when (not if) the players catch up to them and get their hands on them. This doesn't necessarily mean "they teleport away," but it does mean that you have to know what's actually going to happen if the PCs get directly involved. Will they be able to fight competently? If interrogated, what do they know? Can they be strong-armed into helping out Team Hero, either in action or by giving information? If so, what will happen? If not, why not? If the players decide (intentionally or unintentionally) to help them out with their harebrained scheme, what happens? There must be some kind of plan for this sort of eventuality, even if it never comes to pass.

Now, obviously, any given trope works better in some media than in others, and the CVS is probably better adapted to media without as much player(/viewer/reader) autonomy, so they can get away with their antics in peace. I still think it's at least worth thinking about, though, since it's such a widespread thing (and quite funny, when done properly). Here's a couple ideas I have for making the CVS work. Obviously, they're far from comprehensive (after all, this is a discussion thread, not a guide) and possibly not even any good, but hey, it's a start.

Make them faceless and replaceable mooks, not identifiable characters. I can easily imagine a game in which, for example, a hobgoblin army is a major threat to the PCs, and while the hobgoblins mean business, they also send in squads of goblin lackeys, who are more of a danger to themselves than to the party. (The hobbos just send the gobbos on missions to get rid of them, really.) This means that you don't have to worry about them getting away, since there are more of them. In addition, it means that you don't have to come up with names and unique personalities for them . . . but it means that you also don't get to come up with names and unique personalities for them.

A nice agreement (gentlemen's or otherwise) with the players not to kill the CVS too hard, since they're just comic relief. This can work in the right group, though it can absolutely shatter immersion in the wrong group. Also, since you pretty much have to have the discussion ahead of time, you ruin a lot of the surprise, which is often half the fun.

Instead of milk, have the CVS pour raw Dr. Wily-brand handwavium on their morning cereal. Go ahead and blow up the CVS, or kill them, or whatever. They'll be back. They won't know how. They won't know why. They might remember you, or they might act like it never happened. They're neither sufficiently plot-important nor sufficiently faceless to die for long. As with the agreement option, some tables will find this hilarious, and some tables will find it totally unacceptable. If you use this option, I think you should bring the CVS to the game even less frequently than usual (and they shouldn't be a weekly appearance in any case).

You might have The Smart One and The Dumb One(s). The Smart One might be the one in charge but unable to accomplish much because they have to rely on The Dumb One(s) (e.g., Pinky and the Brain), or they might be the long-suffering lackey of The Dumb One (e.g., Korg and Zet). In either case, The Smart One provides the tactical savvy necessary to get in and get out as appropriate, while The Dumb One(s) ensure/ensures that the whole plan won't end up being anything more than comic relief. I do feel like this is likely to only be delaying the inevitable, but it's an option.

So that's what I've got so far. A problem, a couple imperfect solutions, and that's about it. What do you think? Have you ever used a CVS, or played in a game where one appeared? Do you have any goals or options I haven't mentioned here? In short, discuss!

Talentless
2011-09-22, 09:31 PM
Instead of milk, have the CVS pour raw Dr. Wily-brand handwavium on their morning cereal. Go ahead and blow up the CVS, or kill them, or whatever. They'll be back. They won't know how. They won't know why. They might remember you, or they might act like it never happened. They're neither sufficiently plot-important nor sufficiently faceless to die for long. As with the agreement option, some tables will find this hilarious, and some tables will find it totally unacceptable. If you use this option, I think you should bring the CVS to the game even less frequently than usual (and they shouldn't be a weekly appearance in any case).



This is easy. I'm sure there is some Chaotic God somewhere in the Pantheon who would find the antics of these idiots hilarious and subsequently either Res them for free every time, or influenc random events to keep them on their Cosmic Chess Board (Think Rincewind and The Lady from Terry Pratchet's Discworld series)

deuxhero
2011-09-22, 09:58 PM
You could have the recurring comic relief dudes be legacy characters. I recall one topic gathering ideas for a James Bond esqe Factotum (His "spells" were gadgets) that attacked the PCs on top of a train. One poster suggested making him a recurring foe, but to have each incarnation be based on a different Bond (but share the same name and basic idea).


This tends to limit the groups in size though.

Coidzor
2011-09-23, 05:09 AM
I generally tend to favor them being cheap and expendable and renewable, which is why their boss keeps them around despite them being capable of beings thwarted by a couple of meddling classless NPCs and their Awakened Riding Dog.

So it doesn't quite matter so much if the party brutally murderlizes them or not. They'll be back. And still Nyeh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYuZHNP8wLg&feature=related)ing. Basically like your handwavium example except with a slightly more expensive dress and lipstick.

Or maybe just like Balrog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uFUXiBKueM#t=1m38s) from cave Story. Something the party is unable to kill but not able to be more than a passing nuisance to the party, so neutralizing the threat they pose, making fighting the party stop being fun for them, and other such indirect options other than murder to the face make them into a puzzle encounter/fight.

Kol Korran
2011-09-23, 06:29 AM
first of all, i heartily approve of the discussion! it's a good element of the game that can be done right and add a lot, or done poorly and... yeah...

i haven't much used CVS, but some thoughts and ideas:

1) it helps if you actually make them funny, and likeable (maybe also annoying, but that's not their main feature) at least for the first few times they appear. that way the party might get attached to them, and wouldn't instantly try to kill them. subdue them? perhaps? but that may lead to more interactions, an eventual escape and so on

2) it also helps if they can be of some use for the party (this works with clever enterprizing parties, who think abit more out of the box. it doesn't work with "kill! kill them all!" kind of parties.) maybe the CVS are a good source of information? perhaps they have some special resources on hand? (such as favors from organizations an so on), maybe they only can activate some magical items/ access some ritual and so on? (due to race, history or whatever)

3) in terms of keeping them alive- maybe there are some major reprecautions if they are kileld/ seriously harmed? (the leader is the spoiled "goth wanna be" princess, the love of her mother and father the queen and king? they sigh and apologize when she's "up to her youthful antics. i'm sure she'll get over it" but they'll be really, really pissed off if she is harmed)
or the petty necromancer have accidently read a book of an elder evil, and now his death would unleash a horrible evil upon the world?

the key here is to make sure tyhe party knows the consequences before hand. heck, it can even lead to a funny adventure when they are trying to protect the CVS from other sources while it/ they still try to take the party out!

4) it was mentioned that there should be some way for the CVS to either escape believably , or have a way of getting back after being vanquished.

some suggestions:
- though the CVS has some means of escape (teleport?) it's not infinite, and they have to pay for it somehow. either by actual money (but that is boring), or in a more... amusing way. the magic (a cursed staff?, or a trick of their benefactor?) may cause them great pain each time they use it, or perhaps even alter them somewhat (making them appear a little different, with perhaps new abilities in future encounters).

the idea is that the CVS has the means, but for some reason they really, really don't want to use it, unless on some last resort. this could also be extended to some ludicrous "out of the box/ unfitting for their level" shenanigans and tools they bring against the party- ring of (misunderstood) wishes, a bag of (unknown) summoning, and so on.

- i once read about a campaign in which there was a group of very interesting recuring villains- ghost of a special militery unit the party defeated through some luck early in the campaign, that came back to haunt and battle them. i won't go into the details of that (it was masterfully done), and while there it worked mostly as a horror element, it can easily work in a comical element. the CVS are the first (or close to first) group of villains the party disposes of. but they get restless (or raised by another villain?) and come back to haunt the party. first as ghost, then possessing others (successfully or not successfully hiding), maybe possessing objects and so on. the thing is- the party can't put an end to them, unless they solve their issues (which may be just to see the party die allready!)

- another idea is to alter the rules of fiends/ outsiders a bit, and instead of them being killed when you... "kill" them, they return to their plane. usually this means that the fiend can't return to the mortal realm for a long time, but for some reason, these fiends can... (perhaps against their will?) to combat the PCs over, and over and over again.... "the council of imps returns!"

5) about effects on the party: i do agree that the CVS MUST affect the party somehow, but at least in the first encounters, when the party still sort of establishes the relationship with them, i'd suggest to keep the effects mostly on the humerous, (somehow turning a PC's hair color, somehow making a PC the most courted one in town, or making it's speech inteligable), sometimes even beneficial (to get the PCs to like them a bit), or mildly annoying.

at later encounters, i suggest to at (a few rare) times, give the CVS a more major role, at causing some major complication, though not one they intended, surprising them as well (to remove an actual hint of capability and treu "evil" intent from them)

6) about failures of the CVS: i'd suggest not to leave it to the dice at all. make the failure stem from their personalities and flawed planning. either over confidence, megalomany, and so on.

7) i know there was an argument for the faceless recuring comical villains, but i think you lose a lot by not giving them faces, personalities, people the characters can relate to. i think that a few known faces, commanding a group of faceless minions is the way to go.

those are my thoughts, good subject anyway!

CTrees
2011-09-23, 07:51 AM
My first reaction, based on the thread title alone, was "I kill them." Reading through, some others have some quite good advice-good enough to make me not hate the very concept. Never underestimate the playground!

BlueInc
2011-09-23, 08:09 AM
Have you considered undead? There's something inherently funny about zombies who have been assigned a complicated task from an necromancer with delusions of grandeur.

In a similar way, make sure that (at least the first time the party meets the CVS), it's in a setting where violence isn't acceptable. If the first time the party meets the CVS is in the Temple of the Macguffin just as they're about to get the item they've been working towards for five sessions, they're going to kill any rivals. If the first time the party meets the CVS is when they're running a recruitment stand ("See the World! Join the CVS! Great Pay! Great Benefits!") at a city fair, or in a drinking contest at a bar, the setting will keep the violence down.

Consider making the CVS neutral and not evil; if the party ever sees "Evil" on their stat sheet or detects evil on them, they'll probably register them as free XP every time. My parties tend to kill/capture/buy out/reason with neutral enemies instead of killing them.

Cieyrin
2011-09-23, 12:58 PM
Levels of Survivor are a must for allowing them to make their escape and also helps a bit with their incompetence, given the lack of BAB and skill points (I'm not sure on the second part), should it ever come to actually rolling. Competent Incompetence requires a certain ability to survive the consequences of your incompetence, so making up for that helps. Can also lead to the PCs, if they do manage to capture them, to use them as trap springers or personal shields ("You remember that time when they survived that cave-in and explosion? They're invulnerable!"), which has its own amusement factor to it.

Also consider Panic Buttons (Complete Scoundrel), which serve well for getting you out and are fairly cheap if it comes to that. Also, if Team Rocket has taught us anything, vehicles are a must, as if you can't make your escape, it's difficult to recur. Phantom Steeds, Nightmares from particularly strict Planar Bindings, Wagons, Ornothopters, Zepellins, etc. Even basic horses can work early on in a pinch or a Safety Ring and have a propensity to fall off cliffs, though that last one requires a certain bit of savvy on the DM to set up environments for that.

Piggy Knowles
2011-09-23, 01:17 PM
I played in a game once where the basic concept was that a whole bunch of intelligent artifacts that possessed the souls of ancient heroes and villains were taking over people that came into proximity with them.

One of the artifacts was the dagger of Sif the Unloved, a supremely unlucky thief that was, for reasons I can't remember, blessed by some god after death. He was completely incompetent and really unlucky, but a very funny character regardless. Everyone his dagger possessed ended up dying in some absurd or silly way, but because the dagger kept possessing new people, he kept coming back time and time again. We didn't figure out how to destroy the artifacts until pretty late in the campaign, and we were all terrified to touch the dagger, for fear that Sif would end up taking one of us over instead...

JaronK
2011-09-23, 01:37 PM
Try sending Simulacrums at the party. The same guy keeps making them to attack the party with using genius plans, but the Simulacrums just don't have the skills to pull them off and thus they fail spectacularly. If they die, it doesn't matter.

JaronK

Starbuck_II
2011-09-23, 01:41 PM
Give them 1/2 troll template: so they walk away after they wake up to go back to boss for forgiveness.
Regeneration means never having say goodbye. Exception is if PCs use fire commonly...

Cieyrin
2011-09-23, 03:02 PM
Give them 1/2 troll template: so they walk away after they wake up to go back to boss for forgiveness.
Regeneration means never having say goodbye. Exception is if PCs use fire commonly...

What kind of adventurers don't leave something on fire on their way out or even when they start? :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2011-09-23, 03:07 PM
What kind of adventurers don't leave something on fire on their way out or even when they start? :smallwink:

The Brothers Barbarian (trademark).
They keep killing that one orc and he keeps coming back.