[Pathfinder] Stat Allocation, cruel?!

[Gandolfi Feesh]

I'm about to run my own campaign, and I'm going to employ the stat purchase method.

Is the 10 point (Low Fantasy) too severe to throw at them. [They are used to rolling 5d6 and taking the top 3..AND you get 3 attempts!]
To account for this I've given them the fast XP Progression and +1 Character level with regards to starting wealth.

We've been playing for around 3 years now, I think it will add a shred of mortality which has been lacking in previous campaigns. Should I stand by the 10 point, or go soft and offer them the 15 point build???

Thanks

[Seerow]

How does pathfinder point buy differ from standard 3.5 point buy?


Cause if it's the same.. yeah 10 points is being exceptionally cruel to anyone who isn't a straight caster. Generally a low point buy is 20-25.

[Fenryr]

How does pathfinder point buy differ from standard 3.5 point buy?


Cause if it's the same.. yeah 10 points is being exceptionally cruel to anyone who isn't a straight caster. Generally a low point buy is 20-25.

Starting score is 10. Don't know if legal or not but I tend to use this calculator.
(http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html)

If you want more mortality rate, why not improve CR? Or use better strategies or counter everything.

Tomb of Horrors?

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Not looking to TPW, just want players to constantly be on their toes. Standard in Pathfinder is a 15 point buy.
As I say they have been playing for years and they know the in's and out's of every loophole possible. This just brings it back down to manageable levels.

[Talentless]

I'm about to run my own campaign, and I'm going to employ the stat purchase method.

Is the 10 point (Low Fantasy) too severe to throw at them. [They are used to rolling 5d6 and taking the top 3..AND you get 3 attempts!]
To account for this I've given them the fast XP Progression and +1 Character level with regards to starting wealth.

We've been playing for around 3 years now, I think it will add a shred of mortality which has been lacking in previous campaigns. Should I stand by the 10 point, or go soft and offer them the 15 point build???

Thanks

It actually hinges far more on the challenges they'll be solving and how generous you are with the loot.

If they can't get a hold of any useful loot, and you use the standard DMG purchasing rules that make finding useful loot to buy a complete roulette of random luck. Then yes, yes a 10 point PF buy is too cruel.

If they find useful gear and items that the party can consistantly use in the loot, then no, it works just fine.

[Seerow]

Okay, after playing around with that calculator some, I do think the 15 point buy is better, because it actually lets players have more than once decent stat. The problem with low point buys is that a lot of classes are MAD, and the classes that are MAD tend to be the weaker classes anyway. Given you say your players know the ins and outs of the system, if you put them in this situation they'll probably all roll Wizards and Clerics and Druids and not even notice.

Besides, attributes are really a piss poor balancing point. Like if you remove the requirement of needing attributes to qualify for feats or cast spells, you can literally give everybody a 10 in all attributes and most classes will more or less function just like normal. People like high attributes because it makes them feel special, but in the long run, when you can get +16 to an attribute just from passive gear and leveling, and boost attributes even higher with buffs or class features, an extra 2-8 at the start in any attribute isn't going to matter.

If you want a lower powered game where the PCs feel more threatened, try actually talking to them about optimization levels. I have no idea what the optimization in your group is right, but maybe instead of a Incanatrix Wizard, they could be happy with a Warmage. Or instead of the 9th level casting +18 BAB Gish, they'd be happy with playing a Magus. Maybe they could tone down their +damage shenanigans on that charger just a little bit?

Then on your side, make sure your enemies play intelligently. Take advantage of terrain, use battlefield control effects, use save or suck effects. Put up buffs. Use more than one or two enemies who are coordinating together, even waves of enemies so the second group catches the PCs mid battle off guard.




tl;dr: Sure, limit the point buy if you must, but realize it's not going to make the huge impact you're hoping for. Work with your players for a power level that is more acceptable to you, and play enemies intelligently and tactically.

[Mad Gene Vane]

I think anything less than a 25 point buy puts players worse off than a typical 4d6 roll for the stats.

I rolled a dwarf cleric once for a D&D campaign once and had lousy rolls. I rolled 3 single digit rolls (8-9), two very low double digit rolls (10 or 11) and an 18. That's about the typical distribution I've seen on 15 point buys.

A 10 point buy is pointless, in my opinion. Characters would be too underpowered to have any fund with the game.

[Seerow]

I think anything less than a 25 point buy puts players worse off than a typical 4d6 roll for the stats.

I rolled a dwarf cleric once for a D&D campaign once and had lousy rolls. I rolled 3 single digit rolls (8-9), two very low double digit rolls (10 or 11) and an 18. That's about the typical distribution I've seen on 15 point buys.

A 10 point buy is pointless, in my opinion. Characters would be too underpowered to have any fund with the game.

It was pointed out above that a 10pt buy in pathfinder is different from a 10 pt buy in 3.5.

In 3.5 a 10pt buy won't even buy you 10s across the board, and that is really really bad. In Pathfinder, you start with 10s, and can buy down for extra points. A 15 pt buy is roughly equivalent to a 3.5 25pt buy, a 10 is obviously worse, but not as bad as it sounds at first. I still wouldn't use it, due to reasons mentioned previously though.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

I'm glad I posted now, thanks for all your opinions.
I'm always generous with loot, treasure and xp keep players interested if a story starts to run stale..so I'm always handing out higher equipment than stated.
With regards to purchasing, it will start at x1.5 to buy but as the game progresses they can meet merchant contacts to reduce it to x1, then maybe even persuade crafters to do it for half price later in the game??

I just think if you give everyone everything at the start they get bored very easily. I think I'm going to start them on 10, then allot extra stat points at appropriate levels. For example +2 to a stat at level 8, or +1/+1 to two stats.
I may even throw them out due to heroic encounters eg; +1 to Con for taking a max'd disintegrate to the face and surviving, +1 Str for bull rushing a hezrou as he attempts to coup de grace his halfling companion on the floor. There wouldn't be set allotments, just whenever I felt it was worth rewarding.
What is your thoughts on that?

[Larpus]

As said, 10 point buy is too punishing, especially to martial classes, taking away their only perk (as in the lower levels high stats + BAB = you hit lots of stuff).

If you want to keep your players on their toes, throw ambushes at them (works especially well when there are Rogues involved) and in PF natural weapons are killer, you get one attack for each weapon all made at full BAB (it's more complicated than that, but I'll keep it simple).

Another thing that may work is a house-rule my DM uses, reworking the rules for massive damage: any single attack that deals 50% (or more) of a character's HP is considered massive and the character needs to make a Fort check with a DC of 10 + any damage that exceeded the 50%, if he fails he faints (new checks every round and instantly wakes up with a Heal check by other character or if cured) if he fails by 10 or more he starts to bleed from shock.

We used the roll 4d6 lose the lowest with a pooled 18, so everyone has very nice stats and still we are always on our toes, especially low HP classes like casters.