Sha'ir?

[Little Brother]

Just reread my Dragon Compendium, and I have two questions: One, how in the name of bacon is it not tier 0, like on par with the StP Erudite? And, two, is there a way to balance it while keeping the the awesome Gen mechanic?

[Coidzor]

The wait time, mostly, is what keeps it from being too powerful.

[tyckspoon]

They are absolutely ridiculous utility casters; if you're in a situation where you could spare 15 minutes for a Wizard to fill an open slot with the right spell for a situation, a Sha'ir can get exactly the right spell without fussing about with his spellbook or having had to go hunting extra spells and spending largish chunks of WBL to expand his book previously (although he does need to have seen the spell to Spellcraft it, so you might have to hire some spellcasting to get other Sorcs/Wizards to show off their spells for you. Still generally cheaper than scribing.) They don't do combat casting as well as Wizards/Sorcs do, and divine spells take so frigging long to retrieve that it's not really worth doing, especially because most of the divine spells on the allowed domains aren't anything special.

In return, the Sha'ir is held back by two main things: His retrieved spells only last 1 hr/sha'ir level, and he has to make a Diplomacy check to retrieve a spell. At low levels, these are serious problems; you have to stop mid-day to retrieve your spell load again, and there's pretty good odds you just won't be able to get the spells (base DC 20, +2 spell/level. You get a +1 bonus per Sha'ir level.) If you're starting high levels, you get enough duration on your 'memorization' to rack some spells at the start of the day and be good, and you can optimize your way around the Diplomacy check, but it's still pretty silly that you're basically required to be able to hit near-Diplomancer level checks just to reliably acquire your spells. Oh, and both the bonus on your checks and the time you can remember spells are explicitly based on Sha'ir level, so you can't really multiclass or prestige class.

[Little Brother]

The wait time, mostly, is what keeps it from being too powerful.
And that is why Bacobb invented sleep, to give a Sha'ir's Gen the time it needs to nab a divine spell.

They are absolutely ridiculous utility casters; if you're in a situation where you could spare 15 minutes for a Wizard to fill an open slot with the right spell for a situation, a Sha'ir can get exactly the right spell without fussing about with his spellbook or having had to go hunting extra spells and spending largish chunks of WBL to expand his book previously (although he does need to have seen the spell to Spellcraft it, so you might have to hire some spellcasting to get other Sorcs/Wizards to show off their spells for you. Still generally cheaper than scribing.) They don't do combat casting as well as Wizards/Sorcs do, and divine spells take so frigging long to retrieve that it's not really worth doing, especially because most of the divine spells on the allowed domains aren't anything special.
They still don't have to actually know the spell, and there are ways to get better domains, right? I dunno, I've never tried that on an arcane caster.

In return, the Sha'ir is held back by two main things: His retrieved spells only last 1 hr/sha'ir level, and he has to make a Diplomacy check to retrieve a spell. At low levels, these are serious problems; you have to stop mid-day to retrieve your spell load again, and there's pretty good odds you just won't be able to get the spells (base DC 20, +2 spell/level. You get a +1 bonus per Sha'ir level.) If you're starting high levels, you get enough duration on your 'memorization' to rack some spells at the start of the day and be good, and you can optimize your way around the Diplomacy check, but it's still pretty silly that you're basically required to be able to hit near-Diplomancer level checks just to reliably acquire your spells. Oh, and both the bonus on your checks and the time you can remember spells are explicitly based on Sha'ir level, so you can't really multiclass or prestige class.But any more than 16, and probably closer to twelve, is unneeded, isn't it? You can also pop out for a quick domain class(If they can get their grubs on it), right?

And absurd diplomancy is a bad thing? With LA Buy-off I can go unseelie fey magic-blooded primordial half-giant for a good +8 or more to charisma, I can just do the typical diplomancy stuff. I'm not seeing them being anything less than absurd.

[Coidzor]

And absurd diplomancy is a bad thing? With LA Buy-off I can go unseelie fey magic-blooded primordial half-giant for a good +8 or more to charisma, I can just do the typical diplomancy stuff. I'm not seeing them being anything less than absurd.

To a fair few, yes.

[thorr-kan]

The sha'ir's awesomeness is a hold-over from 2nd Ed's "I am like unto a GOD! (Though I can't really craft magic items.)" sha'ir.

These guys are a hoot to play.

[Cog]

Also, the Sha'ir doesn't automatically have access to even Arcane spells not on his Known list - he has to have previously successfully made a Spellcraft check to identify the spell upon actually seeing it's effects. It's like the Druid's Wild Shape familiarity condition, but more specifically restricted.

That the gen can only try to retrieve one spell at a time (it immediately plane shifts) is a further restriction, unless you're going the Arcane Preparation route (a feat very well-suited to the class, though).

[Little Brother]

Also, the Sha'ir doesn't automatically have access to even Arcane spells not on his Known list - he has to have previously successfully made a Spellcraft check to identify the spell upon actually seeing it's effects. It's like the Druid's Wild Shape familiarity condition, but more specifically restricted.

That the gen can only try to retrieve one spell at a time (it immediately plane shifts) is a further restriction, unless you're going the Arcane Preparation route (a feat very well-suited to the class, though).From a CO perspective, yes he has , like the Schrodinger's Wizard.

And it takes 2-7 rounds if you know the spell, so he is effectively a spontaneous wizard with more access.

[gorfnab]

Here is something that may interest you: Sha'ir Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10153)

[Amphetryon]

From a CO perspective, yes he has , like the Schrodinger's Wizard.

And it takes 2-7 rounds if you know the spell, so he is effectively a spontaneous wizard with more access.

Two to seven rounds delay to cast a spell you need is more than enough time to lose an encounter, in general. It's a pretty stiff penalty in the heat of a combat.

[Little Brother]

Two to seven rounds delay to cast a spell you need is more than enough time to lose an encounter, in general. It's a pretty stiff penalty in the heat of a combat.And that is why you don't just run around empty handed. Especially since you can prepare any number of times per day, I see no reason not to prep quite few spells at mid-level, and then use your gen for the spell you didn't prep that you really need.


And if you can't survive an encounter for 4.5 rounds, or even seven, with wizard casting, you're doing it wrong.

[Tokuhara]

Personally, I adore this class. It's got excellent fluff, decent crunch, 9th level spells, access to arcane and divine PrCs, and if you take it to lv11, Wish 1/day (kinda). Heck, with a little work in optimization, this is BETTER than wizard or sorcerer. I know on these forums that is blasphemy, but It's true.

[Coidzor]

And if you can't survive an encounter for 4.5 rounds, or even seven, with wizard casting, you're doing it wrong.

I thought the wisdom was, if you haven't ended it or at least, effectively sealed the battle's outcome by round 3's end, you were the one who was ended/doomed, when it comes to wizardly casting.

Or was that just Wizzie v. Wizzie? :smallconfused:

[Fouredged Sword]

You can hold a spell for sha'iir level of HOURS people. My would you ever NOT have your slots all filled with spells you think you may need?

Yes I know there is a contention about loseing that slot if the spell times out, but really I disagree with that point becuse it makes the class silly.

Also, worth noting is reserve feats. So long as you have a spell slot open you count as having EVERY WIZARD (and several of cleric's) SPELL IN THAT SLOT. All your reserve feats act as if they have your max slot dedicated to them without messing around with saving multiple slots or losing spells known to spells you don't want to use. Pick up a nice one or two and you have something to do during the encounter you failed to have spells readied for. (past 8th level this should never happen as you have enough time to keep spells over night.)

[flumphy]

Yes I know there is a contention about loseing that slot if the spell times out, but really I disagree with that point becuse it makes the class silly.


The thing is, it's kind of silly either way. You either have insane versatility the whole way through or insane waiting at lower levels that becomes inconsequential from mid-levels on. If anything, I'd say the latter is more balanced. RAW is ambiguous, and RAI even moreso, so I wouldn't call either ruling unreasonable. I would, however, call the class poorly-designed.

[Cog]

Also, worth noting is reserve feats. So long as you have a spell slot open you count as having EVERY WIZARD (and several of cleric's) SPELL IN THAT SLOT.
I'm not convinced about this. As per the description in Complete Mage, you need to have the relevant spell "available to cast", which to me sounds like you need to be able to at least attempt to cast it at the time you're trying to use the feat. A Sha'ir would thus need to already have the relevant spell either retrieved or arcane-prepped.

Even that is a generous reading. The text goes into details for prepared casters and spontaneous casters, and the Sha'ir is technically neither; how they benefit from reserve feats is undefined.