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DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 07:45 AM
Ok, so I am building a high level and high optimization campaign and one of the players wants to build a bard. She want to use a variant that debuffs enemies instead of buffing allies and I do not know where to find it. The player is not an optimizer so I need to help find all sorts of nasty tricks to amplify the debuff in question, the downside being that I know next to nothing about bards outside of dragonfire inspiration. so, to the playground:

where is the debuff bard variant?

which prestige class will advance her sublime chord casting and her bardic music bonus/penalty?

what will allow her to crack the immunities that almost everything at this level has?

If none of these exist, what can I homebrew that will work?
NeoSeraphi
2011-09-23, 07:54 AM
I don't know what variant you are referring to, sadly, but if you want a powerful debuffing bard homebrew, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201346)
Amphetryon
2011-09-23, 08:09 AM
The closest to an official debuff-focused Bard I can think of is Dirge Singer, a 5-level PrC from Libris Mortis. It's sorely lacking a spellcasting advancement of any sort, though.

Lyric Thaumaturge and Virtuoso are good spellcasting options to look into, from Complete Mage and Complete Adventurer, respectively.

Dread Witch 4 is good for overcoming fear immunities.
Dictum Mortuum
2011-09-23, 08:20 AM
No need to use prestige classes/variants. Use feats: get haunting melody (from Heroes of Horror) and Doomspeak (from Champions of Ruin) and go to town.

Complete Scoundrel also has some strange bardic music debuff feats.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 08:33 AM
No need to use prestige classes/variants. Use feats: get haunting melody (from Heroes of Horror) and Doomspeak (from Champions of Ruin) and go to town.

Complete Scoundrel also has some strange bardic music debuff feats.

doomspeak is exactly what the player is looking for. how do we boost the save DC?
NeoSeraphi
2011-09-23, 08:35 AM
doomspeak is exactly what the player is looking for. how do we boost the save DC?

The Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) adds +2 the DC of any special ability.
hex0
2011-09-23, 08:35 AM
Jester (Dragon Compendium) has a few debuffs.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 08:36 AM
The Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) adds +2 the DC of any special ability.

is there a greater ability focus?
Talya
2011-09-23, 08:37 AM
doomspeak is exactly what the player is looking for. how do we boost the save DC?

Doomspeak has a ridiculously high save DC. It's 10 + Character Level (all hit dice, from any source) + Charisma. Most abilities are 10 + 1/2 level in a particular class, or 10+level in a short PrC. This is significantly higher. As a bard with already high charisma, you probably don't need to boost it any further, seriously. At level 20, the a bard/sublime Chord is going to easily have a DC of 40-42 for doomspeak.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 08:42 AM
Doomspeak has a ridiculously high save DC. It's 10 + Character Level (all hit dice, from any source) + Charisma. Most abilities are 10 + 1/2 level in a particular class, or 10+level in a short PrC. This is significantly higher. As a bard with already high charisma, you probably don't need to boost it any further, seriously. At level 20, the a bard/sublime Chord is going to easily have a DC of 40-42 for doomspeak.

generally i'd agree but i am optimizing the enemies a good deal and it's common to see will saves in the 40-55 range
Talya
2011-09-23, 08:46 AM
If they're seeing will saves in the +40 to +55 range at level 20 or earlier, their only real option is to stop using spells/abilities that allow saving throws. An average player character save bonus at 20, assuming one PrC, on their best save is going to be +24 to +30.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 08:51 AM
If they're seeing will saves in the +40 to +55 range at level 20 or earlier, their only real option is to stop using spells/abilities that allow saving throws. An average player character save bonus at 20, assuming one PrC, on their best save is going to be +24 to +30.

no one has less than 3 PrCs. decided to skim through my list again, saves are actualy 31-53 (lowest and highest respectively) and the average is about 38, so the DC 44 (lvl 20, 34 Cha, ability focus) will actually have a chance of working, especially since it will be a considerably higher by the time the are dealing with them.

does this stack with words of creation for a -20 penalty on everything?
NeoSeraphi
2011-09-23, 08:52 AM
is there a greater ability focus?

No, there is no improved version of Ability Focus. But Talya makes a valid point.


It's common to see Will saves in the 40-55 range

..I'm sorry, what? Exactly what level are you playing? I just went to the SRD and looked up a bunch of CR 20-24 monsters.

The Balor has a Will save of +19. Great wyrm dragons have a Will save of +24-+33. The tarrasque has a Will save of +20. The pit fiend is +21. Solars have a +20. So what Will saves are you looking at?

Edit: Saw your last post. The bard can take Leadership and get a Dark Companion Hexblade 4/Paladin of Slaughter (Tyranny? The one with the debuff save) 2/Sorcerer X who focuses on lowering saving throws.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-23, 09:10 AM
No, there is no improved version of Ability Focus. But Talya makes a valid point.



..I'm sorry, what? Exactly what level are you playing? I just went to the SRD and looked up a bunch of CR 20-24 monsters.

The Balor has a Will save of +19. Great wyrm dragons have a Will save of +24-+33. The tarrasque has a Will save of +20. The pit fiend is +21. Solars have a +20. So what Will saves are you looking at?

Edit: Saw your last post. The bard can take Leadership and get a Dark Companion Hexblade 4/Paladin of Slaughter (Tyranny? The one with the debuff save) 2/Sorcerer X who focuses on lowering saving throws.

most enemies are advanced outsiders with nonassociated class/PrC levels. I do not think the bard will take leadership for RP reasons but am not absolutely certain yet (and it will not even start for a good 4 months or so)
Hirax
2011-09-23, 10:01 AM
The saint template and certain exalted feats (Book of Exalted Deeds) increase the DC of just about everything you do. Veil of allure in the Magic Item Compendium will also help you. Tome of Magic has a bunch of feats has sudden ability focus, where you can increase the save DC of any supernatural ability by 2, 1/day.
Andorax
2011-09-23, 12:05 PM
Class Acts, Dragon 336 and 337.
Optimator
2011-09-23, 04:07 PM
Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic has a really large DC too. Combine it with Haunting Melody and spells like Fear and Wail of Doom, take Dirgesinger, and add on a dose of Doomspeak for maximum debuffing.

There are lots of debuffs on the Bard's spell list. Even more on a Sublime CHord.
gorfnab
2011-09-24, 12:54 AM
This handbook may be of use to you: The Fear Hanbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0).
Flickerdart
2011-09-24, 12:59 AM
Gnome Bards get a few really spiffy ACFs in Races of Stone that will absolutely terrify your enemies, though anything fear-related is going to be absurdly worthless against enemies who only fail saves on a 1.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-24, 02:55 AM
all the stuff is great. doomspeak is going to be the primary ability, inspire awe+fear stacking with use of item familiar leads to absurd DCs, and undertone of heresy will do some wonderful things to help with the already impressive DCs. unless there is anything else with huge DCs i think that's about everything needed.

Is there a way to get early entry into seeker of the song so i can also get full chord progression on this?
Flickerdart
2011-09-24, 12:19 PM
Oh, forgot something.

Curse of Impending Blades (SpC) is a Bard 2 spell that gives the target -2 AC, no save. Pretty neat little toy, since it lets your face-puncher PA for a little more.