War Hulk question

[silver spectre]

I like the war hulk prc from the miniatures handbook, but having a feature that basically just says that you basically forget 50% or more of what you've learned just makes no sense to me.

Would removing or replacing (no idea what with) the "No time to think" class feature of the war hulk be out of line?

[Daftendirekt]

War Hulk is there to make your huge, hulking beast character even more hulking, huge, and beast-like. He doesn't need to think.

So, yes, it would.

[Starbuck_II]

I like the war hulk prc from the miniatures handbook, but having a feature that basically just says that you basically forget 50% or more of what you've learned just makes no sense to me.

Would removing or replacing (no idea what with) the "No time to think" class feature of the war hulk be out of line?

No, the class is stupid: that they decided to balance it with "no time to think" is silly.

Removing it would be fine.

[JaronK]

I just always figured to get the strength bump you were taking steroids and thus making yourself dumber in the long run. It makes as much sense as anything else. And you don't forget anything of what you know... characters appropriate to becoming a War Hulk don't know those things anyway. Problem solved.

JaronK

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Remove or replace No Time To Think.
2. Combine War Hulk 4 with War Mind 5.
3. Pick two adjacent opponents, one swing causes an infinite-attack-loop that kills them both.

[Inferno]

I'd replace it with illiteracy, as barbarian.
Otherwise a barbarian that takes levels in War hulk learns to read and forgets how to think. Backwards much?

[Lateral]

I just always figured to get the strength bump you were taking steroids and thus making yourself dumber in the long run. It makes as much sense as anything else. And you don't forget anything of what you know... characters appropriate to becoming a War Hulk don't know those things anyway. Problem solved.

Except when you enter as a Factotum, in which case you suck. Plus, "no time to think" doesn't really make any sense- it applies out of combat, which is when you'd be using those skills, even though it only makes any sense in combat.

[JaronK]

Generally speaking, War Hulk isn't meant to be entered with a Factotum entry, just like Ur Priest isn't really meant to be entered with a Druid entry. The idea behind War Hulk is you're a mindless brute that uses HULK SMASH to deal with everything.

JaronK

[Lateral]

Generally speaking, War Hulk isn't meant to be entered with a Factotum entry, just like Ur Priest isn't really meant to be entered with a Druid entry. The idea behind War Hulk is you're a mindless brute that uses HULK SMASH to deal with everything.

Yeah, I know, but it's still my favorite entry, and No Time to Think screws around with it too much.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

War Hulk is more a prc for enemy NPCs then for players. I would advice not taking it, especially with Factotum, because it drops any class to tier 5.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

War Hulk is more a prc for enemy NPCs then for players. I would advice not taking it, especially with Factotum, because it drops any class to tier 5.

Ummm... no. War Hulk is, bar none, one of the most powerful 'hulk smash' classes around, particularly when focusing on being a Gatling Tripper. Particularly when you obviate the class's one weakness with a Skillful weapon, or a method of using a Wand of Divine Power.

Mighty Swing is pretty ridiculous when placed on a pouncing charger chassis. Triple your attacks or your money back! Massive Swing can theoretically be even worse, but that's also the same theory that made Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack seem so valuable at first.

But the real reason why it is taken all the way to 10, if not further with other classes cheezing it? Untyped +2 Str bonus which stacks with itself. Every level. Str boosting on the cheap.

In fact, with BAB considerations, I'd probably go (full BAB chassis)5/Warhulk4/Legacy Champion10/etc...

You end up with more strength, more BAB, and more fun at the end.

[ranagrande]

War Hulk rocks with gestalt. :smalltongue:

[Anarchy_Kanya]

BaB? War Hulk gives +0 BaB on all levels.
And I know it's a great class for a bruiser. That's why I said that it's good for an enemy. Not so much for a PC, because it's down-grading whatever class you use to tier 5.

[Rhatahema]

As mentioned in post#5, the main reason I see not to remove the "No time to think" class feature is that it alters game balance by improving an already solid prestige class. For instance, it opens up prestige classes that offer uncanny blow (2xStr mod. when wielding a particular weapon two-handed), such as the Exotic Weapon Master.

[Lateral]

BaB? War Hulk gives +0 BaB on all levels.
And I know it's a great class for a bruiser. That's why I said that it's good for an enemy. Not so much for a PC, because it's down-grading whatever class you use to tier 5.

...What? No. Your logic makes no sense. In no way does it downgrade a class to tier 5. Losing INT, WIS, and CHA-based skills does nothing of the sort, and neither does +0 BAB, especially since you get +2 STR at every level, making up for the to-hit lost, and Mighty Swing helps make up for the iteratives lost. With a Skillful weapon, you should be making at least as many attacks as any full BAB class at level 20 due to Mighty Swing.

[Cieyrin]

BaB? War Hulk gives +0 BaB on all levels.
And I know it's a great class for a bruiser. That's why I said that it's good for an enemy. Not so much for a PC, because it's down-grading whatever class you use to tier 5.

That's what the Skillful Weapon is for. :smalltongue:


As mentioned in post#5, the main reason I see not to remove the "No time to think" class feature is that it alters game balance by improving an already solid prestige class. For instance, it opens up prestige classes that offer uncanny blow (2xStr mod. when wielding a particular weapon two-handed), such as the Exotic Weapon Master.

Can't get into EWM, No Time to Think gets rid of Craft, which you need to enter the PrC.

[TroubleBrewing]

1. Remove or replace No Time To Think.
2. Combine War Hulk 4 with War Mind 5.
3. Pick two adjacent opponents, one swing causes an infinite-attack-loop that kills them both.

4. Combine War Hulk 4/War Mind 5 with Crusader X, and use a small enough weapon for a D2, and use an attack that deals infinite damage to create and infinite attack loop.

Yaaaaaay looping!

[Anarchy_Kanya]

...What? No. Your logic makes no sense. In no way does it downgrade a class to tier 5. Losing INT, WIS, and CHA-based skills does nothing of the sort, and neither does +0 BAB, especially since you get +2 STR at every level, making up for the to-hit lost, and Mighty Swing helps make up for the iteratives lost. With a Skillful weapon, you should be making at least as many attacks as any full BAB class at level 20 due to Mighty Swing.
Wasn't tier 5 about doing one thing decently and nothing else? War Hulk improves fighting ability, but strips you from anything else. Well, maybe he doesn't down-grade straight to tier 5, but really doesn't make you better either. It's just god awful as a PC prc.

[Urpriest]

No Time to Think is part of the fluff. Getting rid of it for fluff reasons is silly.

[Cieyrin]

Wasn't tier 5 about doing one thing decently and nothing else? War Hulk improves fighting ability, but strips you from anything else. Well, maybe he doesn't down-grade straight to tier 5, but really doesn't make you better either. It's just god awful as a PC prc.

Loss of skills does not lower Tier. Plus, not all skills are lost, there's plenty of Str and Dex based skills still available, plus Intimidate is specifically called out as available, so Zhentarim Fighter shenanigans are still on the table, plus the matter of social interaction on that front. A Barbarian or Psychic Warrior/War Hulk are still in their Tier. War Hulks are not meant to be skill monkeys, trying to base their power on that is just downright silly. For Barbarians specifically:


Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Emphasis mine. That is War Hulk to a T. A Psychic Warrior or War Mind still have their powers and their ability to break things.

Also, looking at the Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), War Hulk is listed as Tier +2, so they are rather successful despite No Time to Think. Just b/c you value skills doesn't mean the loss of them makes them unplayable. I appreciate skills, too, but, again, basing their power on their skill capabilities is doomed for failure. Factotums just do not play well with War Hulk and whining about it won't change that. Warhulking Hurlers are nasty beasts and will continue to kick ass as they toss planets around with their massive muscles.

[TroubleBrewing]

Warhulking Hurlers are nasty beasts and will continue to kick ass as they toss planets around with their massive muscles.

I just imagine that the process of becoming a War Hulk involves having a Wizard remove your brain and replace it with another pair of biceps.

[Lateral]

Factotums just do not play well with War Hulk and whining about it won't change that.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Factotums get all skills as class skills, not just mental-based ones; they still have plenty of places to put their skill points. Having a high intelligence, as a Factotum, gives plenty of non-INT-skill-based benefits; Brains over Brawn adds your INT to STR and DEX skills and checks, so a Factotum/War Hulk tripping build is absolutely doable. Kind of weird, since the War Hulk is designed to be a dumb brute class, but absolutely doable.

I agree with everything else you've said, by the way.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Factotums get all skills as class skills, not just mental-based ones; they still have plenty of places to put their skill points. Having a high intelligence, as a Factotum, gives plenty of non-INT-skill-based benefits; Brains over Brawn adds your INT to STR and DEX skills and checks, so a Factotum/War Hulk tripping build is absolutely doable. Kind of weird, since the War Hulk is designed to be a dumb brute class, but absolutely doable.

I agree with everything else you've said, by the way.
The ability to use your extreme intelligence to break faces, but not to do science and improve the world? Where have I heard that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless) before?

[Lateral]

The ability to use your extreme intelligence to break faces, but not to do science and improve the world? Where have I heard that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless) before?

...

You're a genius. Reed Richards is a Factotum 7/War Hulk 3 with Superior Unarmed Strike and Inhuman Reach, isn't he.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

But... Mr. Fantastic was elastic, not strong...

[flumphy]

But... Mr. Fantastic was elastic, not strong...

How would you even do that in 3.5? Warshaper, maybe?

One could make a case for the Thing being a factotum/warhulk, I guess.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

How would you even do that in 3.5? Warshaper, maybe?

One could make a case for the Thing being a factotum/warhulk, I guess.
But... The Thing wasn't smart, he was just strong and tough...

:smalltongue:

[flumphy]

But... The Thing wasn't smart, he was just strong and tough...

:smalltongue:

I thought he was an astronaut before the accident?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I thought he was an astronaut before the accident?
So? Being an astronaut doesn't make him a rocket scientist. He can fly a spaceship, sure, but that's what he was trained for. It does require some competence, but I'm not saying that Ben was an idiot, he just wasn't THAT smart. More so after becoming The Thing. I didn't even remember what he was doing before the change, that's how not-smart he's behaving as The Thing.

[Elric VIII]

So? Being an astronaut doesn't make him a rocket scientist. He can fly a spaceship, sure, but that's what he was trained for. It does require some competence, but I'm not saying that Ben was an idiot, he just wasn't THAT smart. More so after becoming The Thing. I didn't even remember what he was doing before the change, that's how not-smart he's behaving as The Thing.

Well, yeah, his levels in War Hulk got rid of all his knowledge and social skills. Seems legit to me.

[Runestar]

Interesting thought - a monster with 20 racial HD gets epic bab when he takes lvs in warhulk, bypass the drawback of the prc not granting bab. That's one instance in which a monster npc benefits from warhulk more than a PC, because they typically have a lot of HD for their cr (like elementals).

On a side note, I have always wondered how a half-ogre cleric7/war hulk10 would play like. Divine power to get full bab and smack away. :smalltongue: Probably not optimised, but sounds fun indeed.

[Lateral]

But... Mr. Fantastic was elastic, not strong...
He's both. That's why he has Inhuman Reach.


How would you even do that in 3.5? Warshaper, maybe?
Again, Inhuman Reach.


One could make a case for the Thing being a factotum/warhulk, I guess.
I don't think he'd be a Warhulk, and he's definitely not a Factotum. The Hulk would probably be a Barbarian/War Hulk when transformed and stupid, and a Factotum when not transformed, but I think the Thing would be something more CON-focused.

[Cieyrin]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Factotums get all skills as class skills, not just mental-based ones; they still have plenty of places to put their skill points. Having a high intelligence, as a Factotum, gives plenty of non-INT-skill-based benefits; Brains over Brawn adds your INT to STR and DEX skills and checks, so a Factotum/War Hulk tripping build is absolutely doable. Kind of weird, since the War Hulk is designed to be a dumb brute class, but absolutely doable.

I agree with everything else you've said, by the way.

Hmm, intriguing. Something to look into, I suppose, though it would definitely be a different kind of Factotum that I'm used to, certainly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's both. That's why he has Inhuman Reach.


Again, Inhuman Reach.


I don't think he'd be a Warhulk, and he's definitely not a Factotum. The Hulk would probably be a Barbarian/War Hulk when transformed and stupid, and a Factotum when not transformed, but I think the Thing would be something more CON-focused.

Hulk has Stoneblessed (Goliath) and Mountainous Rage. So normally, he's just fine. Because he is Medium sized, he doesn't qualify for Warhulk in his normal form, and thus also doesn't have No Time To Think. When he rages, however, he becomes Large, qualifies for the PrC, and gains all abilities, including No Time To Think.

Thus, as a human, he's quite an intelligent scientist. But you won't like him when he's angry... he probably has Frenzied Berzerker level as well.

Thing... well, the thing about The Thing is that he actually was quite an intelligent astronaut. He was an Air Force Captain, and a damn good jet pilot. That's something that requires a good bit of intellect.

Mind you, he's not a Genius, like Reed or Sue is. But he's by no means on the low end of the intellect pool.

[Lateral]

Hulk has Stoneblessed (Goliath) and Mountainous Rage. So normally, he's just fine. Because he is Medium sized, he doesn't qualify for Warhulk in his normal form, and thus also doesn't have No Time To Think. When he rages, however, he becomes Large, qualifies for the PrC, and gains all abilities, including No Time To Think.

He doesn't lose the PrC when he stops qualifying for it. That only applies to the PrCs in the books which have that rule, since it isn't in the PHB and it was never called out as an updated standard rule. I asked about this on the Q&A thread a few weeks ago.

[olentu]

He doesn't lose the PrC when he stops qualifying for it. That only applies to the PrCs in the books which have that rule, since it isn't in the PHB and it was never called out as an updated standard rule. I asked about this on the Q&A thread a few weeks ago.

Updated standard rule. Hmmm, is that actually a term used in the rules that I don't remember or is that just some term someone made up to describe the situation when it would be much more informative to actually say what the situation is.

[NNescio]

Thing... well, the thing about The Thing is that he actually was quite an intelligent astronaut. He was an Air Force Captain, and a damn good jet pilot. That's something that requires a good bit of intellect.

Also the whole multiple degrees in engineering thingy, plus him getting a full scholarship for his university.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He doesn't lose the PrC when he stops qualifying for it. That only applies to the PrCs in the books which have that rule, since it isn't in the PHB and it was never called out as an updated standard rule. I asked about this on the Q&A thread a few weeks ago.

Incorrect. Rules Compendium states this rule, and applies it retroactively to everything. If you don't qualify for the PrC, you lose any and all class abilities.

Q&A isn't worth the bytes of Hard Drive space it's stored in.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

He's both. That's why he has Inhuman Reach.
How's that? I've watched both movies, read Ultimate Fantastic Four and a couple random other, older issues of Fantastic Four (I'm not even bothering listing that one crappy cartoon) and I don't remember him showing any feats of unnatural strength. Sure, he hit his enemies with arms shapeshifted into weapons, but that was high Unarmed Strike damage rather then strength.

[Elric VIII]

How's that? I've watched both movies, read Ultimate Fantastic Four and a couple random other, older issues of Fantastic Four (I'm not even bothering listing that one crappy cartoon) and I don't remember him showing any feats of unnatural strength. Sure, he hit his enemies with arms shapeshifted into weapons, but that was high Unarmed Strike damage rather then strength.

Long arms must require a lot of torque.

[Starbuck_II]

Incorrect. Rules Compendium states this rule, and applies it retroactively to everything. If you don't qualify for the PrC, you lose any and all class abilities.

Q&A isn't worth the bytes of Hard Drive space it's stored in.

Rules Compendium is a joke then because Dragon Disciple. Just Dragon Disciple.

[ranagrande]

Incorrect. Rules Compendium states this rule, and applies it retroactively to everything. If you don't qualify for the PrC, you lose any and all class abilities.

Q&A isn't worth the bytes of Hard Drive space it's stored in.

Would you be able to give a page number for that? I don't see it anywhere in the Rules Compendium.

[tyckspoon]

Would you be able to give a page number for that? I don't see it anywhere in the Rules Compendium.

Likewise. Rules Compendium doesn't have a section or an index reference for 'prestige classes', 'multiclassing', 'qualifications', 'prerequisites', or any of the things where you would expect to find such a rule. If you're certain it's in there, a page/header reference would be appreciated.

[Cog]

Further, I've never seen Rules Compendium come up in PrC qualification discussions before. Granted, new things are still (re)discovered from time to time, but I'm skeptical.

[JaronK]

IIRC that rule is only found in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. However, since specific overrides general and there's no other specific rule on when you lose a PrC you qualified for or what happens when you lose prerequisites, the rule is in force in general (it doesn't say it only applies to PrCs from that book, nor is it in a section that implies as such).

With that said, some PrCs are clearly made without that rule in mind (Dragon Disciple being the obvious case). The rule is needed, however, with the advent of retraining and similar rules that can disqualify you afterwords (without it, you can just retrain away all prerequisite feats).

JaronK

[GrognokMagrok]

Interesting thought - a monster with 20 racial HD gets epic bab when he takes lvs in warhulk, bypass the drawback of the prc not granting bab. That's one instance in which a monster npc benefits from warhulk more than a PC, because they typically have a lot of HD for their cr (like elementals).

On a side note, I have always wondered how a half-ogre cleric7/war hulk10 would play like. Divine power to get full bab and smack away. :smalltongue: Probably not optimised, but sounds fun indeed.

Just started an all Evil PC campaign that my friend is running. No limits on classes or races, and any one magic item of choice. its a lvl 9 campaign. Most of the other players are fairly new, so I threw a Stone Giant(LA+4)Barbarian-1/War Hulk-4 at them with a Headband of Perfect Excellence(+6STR/+6DEX/+6WIS).

Wound up with a lvl 9 toon with these stats : STR 50/DEX 26/CON 24/INT 16/WIS 22/CHA 18 and BAB 11/6/1 for a 29/24/19 to hit.

Thrown together with the feats : Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Monkey Grip, Weapon Proficiency Greatsword, Shock Trooper(for the 3rd Maneuver), Power Lunge, Leap Attack and Furious Strength.

I can now use Leap Attack in a charge, take the pwr attack negative away from my ac instead of my to hit, double my strength bonus damage with Power Lunge, and dump all of it into Mighty Swing.

Plus 1/day if the oppostion is tough enough i can use Furious Strength instead of a full rage to get +20 STR for 1 round, and then smash them to bits even worse.

No Time to Think is a bargain for this guy...lol

[Necroticplague]

Just started an all Evil PC campaign that my friend is running. No limits on classes or races, and any one magic item of choice. its a lvl 9 campaign. Most of the other players are fairly new, so I threw a Stone Giant(LA+4)Barbarian-1/War Hulk-4 at them with a Headband of Perfect Excellence(+6STR/+6DEX/+6WIS).

Er, you're aware that's not a level 9 character, right? Stone Giants have, in addition to their LA, RHD that you have to take. As a result, Stone Giants are an ECL 18 race, and that's a level 23-equivalent character.

[GrognokMagrok]

Er, you're aware that's not a level 9 character, right? Stone Giants have, in addition to their LA, RHD that you have to take. As a result, Stone Giants are an ECL 18 race, and that's a level 23-equivalent character.

The DM stated that he is only considering LA for character levels, as everyone is playing monster races. We have a mindflayer(LA+7) with 2 lvls of Decisive strike monk. As an example other party member.

[Troacctid]

The DM stated that he is only considering LA for character levels, as everyone is playing monster races. We have a mindflayer(LA+7) with 2 lvls of Decisive strike monk. As an example other party member.
I don't see any way that could possibly be broken! Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just be over here building a devastation beetle entomanothrope with a black ethergaunt cohort.

[Renen]

Because Ofcourse someone who just registered goes and necros a thread.

Inb4lock