[PF/3.X] Tier 3 Monk?

[Person_Man]

So, let's say that you have a player that wants to play a Monk 20. Not a Swordsage, or a Psychic Warrior, or a Monk/Prestige Class, or a homebrew fix. A Monk 20, using only material from published sources (including 3rd party materials and magazines).

You're an understanding DM, so you suggest the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), which is sadly still in Tier 4 territory. So you also suggest alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ns6oqjoqli8sis8j5g3nu1rke6&topic=7908) and archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes). And you let your player trade out any Monk class ability for any ACF or Archetype ability, even if it's out of order or couldn't otherwise be combined, as long as he doesn't trade away the same ability more then once. (For example, you let him take Punishing Kick from the Hungry Ghost Archetype and Drunken Ki from the Drunken Master Archetype, followed by the Hungry Ghost's Life Funnel ability at 7th level, skipping over some intermediate tradeoffs for each). You ban Leadership, broken templates, custom magic items, having an ally cast Polymorph on you, and similar tricks which could "fix" pretty much any class. But you are otherwise open to ideas of other ways to get the Monk into Tier 3ish range. And in general, you want it to be playable at every level.

Given these parameters, what would be the best Monk 20 combination you can come up with, including Feat, race, and equipment choices?

[Curious]

Hungry Ghost (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk), Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) monk. Trade Tongue of the Sun and Moon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Tongue-of-the-Sun-and-Moon-Ex-) for Cold Ice Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cold-ice-strike), trade High Jump (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-High-Jump-Ex-) for Gaseous Form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gaseous-form), take the Dimensional feats on the PFSRD up to Dimensional Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish), grab the Spider Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spider-step) and Cloud Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cloud-step) feats, get a keen guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon. Pick up a few style feats, such as Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) or Crane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat) style.

Guided adds Wis to damage and to hit in place of Str, Dimensional Dervish allows you to move + full attack, Spider Step allows you to run across water or up walls, cloud Step allows you to run across the air, Gaseous Form lets you go through walls, Restoration is always useful, Cold Ice Strike is a swift action 15d6 attack, Hungry Ghost allows you to regain ki on a crit or kill. Be human.

[Drelua]

I see you've already noticed the Hungry Ghost Monk. Have you looked at the new archetypes from UC? My favourite is the Flowing Monk to knock people flat-footed on AoOs and for the ability to make free trip attempts whenever someone attacks you or an ally. I also like the new bonus feat list, and the nine-section whip also seems like a great monk weapon for this archetype, especially with this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) to reduce the monk's MAD. That and a good combat style should make monk decent, especially with your idea to cherry-pick ability replacements from archetypes. You should definitely look at the Qinggong Monk Archetype from Ultimate Magic, too.

[Seerow]

You should totally go for Vow of Poverty Monk. You get to be totally awesome without gear!

[Curious]

You should totally go for Vow of Poverty Monk. You get to be totally awesome without gear!

/troll? :smallamused:

If you allowed the Pathfinder rule of allowing one item of great value, and gained the extra ki from the Pathfinder vow as well, that might be kind of okay. Maybe.

[Seerow]

/troll? :smallamused:

If you allowed the Pathfinder rule of allowing one item of great value, and gained the extra ki from the Pathfinder vow as well, that might be kind of okay. Maybe.

I think you are confused. I meant just the extra Ki from the pathfinder vow. The 3.5 Vow of Poverty is totally overpowered. Pathfinder totally showed me the light with regards to it. When I first saw the new VoP monk option, I thought it was really weak, but after seeing the excellent reasoning from the Pathfinder developers, I can't imagine ever playing a Monk of a different kind.

[Mr.Bookworm]

So, let's say that you have a player that wants to play a Monk 20. Not a Swordsage, or a Psychic Warrior, or a Monk/Prestige Class, or a homebrew fix. A Monk 20, using only material from published sources (including 3rd party materials and magazines).

Beat them upside the head until the brain damage convinces them to stop.

Alternatively, convince everyone else in the party to go for Tier 4/5 classes. This will also probably require beatings, so win/win for the DM here.


You're an understanding DM, so you suggest the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), which is sadly still in Tier 4 territory.

I could have sworn that the general consensus was the PF Monk was still stuck in Tier 5 territory.

Also on a tangent brought up by looking at the Pathfinder Monk, I have a simple rule when I'm looking at Monk fixes. The very first thing I do is scroll down to the 20th level on the chart. If I see "slow fall any distance" on there I immediately close the tab and never look back, because the person who designed that fix has a concept of game design I want no part of.


So you also suggest alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ns6oqjoqli8sis8j5g3nu1rke6&topic=7908) and archtypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes). And you let your player trade out any Monk class ability for any ACF or Archtype ability, even if it's out of order or couldn't otherwise be combined, as long as he doesn't trade away the same ability more then once. (For example, you let him take Punishing Kick from the Hungry Ghost Archtype and Drunken Ki from the Drunken Master Archtype, followed by the Hungry Ghost's Life Funnel ability at 7th level, skipping over some intermediate tradeoffs for each). You ban Leadership, broken templates, custom magic items, having an ally cast Polymorph on you, and similar tricks which could "fix" pretty much any class. But you are otherwise open to ideas of other ways to get the Monk into Tier 3ish range. And in general, you want it to be playable at every level.

I'm really not sure what you're going for here. Is this an actual player you have? Is this a theoretical exercise? If it's the latter, tossing out chunks of the rules seems rather unproductive for the purposes of the exercise.

Although honestly, I doubt you could get the Monk up to the definition of Tier 3. Tier 4, sure, that just requires you be really good at one particular trick, which a Monk could certainly be heavily optimized to do. Tier 3 implies versatility, though, which a Monk simply doesn't have.


Given these parameters, what would be the best Monk 20 combination you can come up with, including Feat, race, and equipment choices?

Here's a handy guide you might want to look at. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

Though if you're allowing every ACF and archetype ability ever, in any combination of ability you want, this isn't really a build contest; it's just a matter of cherry-picking the best options available anywhere for a Monk. If you restrict it to the normal rules, it would be easier to actually put forward a build.

[Urpriest]

If the guy wants to play the Monk class after seeing Unarmed Swordsage et al then likely he doesn't want to be Tier 3. The whole point of Tier 3 is having options to deal with pretty much any situation. The issue is, this requires a certain broadness of theme, and if you're committed to your character having certain thematic abilities and nothing more (which is the central reason why someone would want to play Monk rather than Swordsage) then having versatility is contradictory to that goal.

[Midnight_v]

That depends Person Man, the answer varies depending on this is a real person, or an information gathering hypothetical, for some other purpose. Do you mind telling which it is?

Aside from that, recently there's been a lot of talk about the Dark Moon monk acf recently its from the same web enhancement as the Zhentarim fighter, champions of valor iirc.
If you're going to waive him worshiping the dark ones or whatever... that acf has some good features... I don't wanna devote too much to this till I know if it's for a person or for a theory though.

[Talentless]

Hell, technically speaking, with a bit of rule bending due to fluff you could totally make a Qinggong monk that has all the standard monk abilities, and all the substitution abilities at the same time technically.

And that is a solid T3 build, mostly because you get a whole LOT of options, but you have to pay out of a limited pool to access them.

*For those interested about the Fluff i'm talking about, read the methods a Quinggong Monk has as to how they gain those abilities. Notice it? For those who haven't, a High level Monk can pass on his techniques using the style,. Also notice that there is no real restriction on how many times someone could receive techniques. (Well, beyond the rules statement later on that they have to trade an ability for it... but meh, not important imo)

Very very loose interpretation and stretching of the rules till they're screaming in agony. But still an option.


Also does very little to alleviate the MAD of the Monk class, so unless you are willing to stretch a bit more and give them a higher PB then the rest of the group, it still won't be as good.

[Person_Man]

That depends Person Man, the answer varies depending on this is a real person, or an information gathering hypothetical, for some other purpose. Do you mind telling which it is?.

A bit of each. It's mostly for information gathering. I honestly skip over most Monk related threads, and haven't had the time to wade through all of the new Monk-ish material Pathfinder has put out. I personally will probably never play one, but it's still oddly popular with several members of my larger D&D circle of friends. So as their potential DM or party member, I thought it'd be handy to acquaint myself with the more useful and/or powerful and/or interesting Monk material out there, while specifically asking people to avoid the standard "don't play a Monk" responses. (Which has obviously failed)

[stainboy]

I think you are confused. I meant just the extra Ki from the pathfinder vow. The 3.5 Vow of Poverty is totally overpowered. Pathfinder totally showed me the light with regards to it. When I first saw the new VoP monk option, I thought it was really weak, but after seeing the excellent reasoning from the Pathfinder developers, I can't imagine ever playing a Monk of a different kind.

You know, PF VoP doesn't have the bit about giving your share of the loot to the orphans. Depending on how your DM handles WBL... it might actually be a net gain. Not for you, you still suck. But for the party.

Or for your cohort. You do have a cohort, right? Possibly a familiar? Psicrystal? Is there any creature under your control that can use buff items on you?

[Rising Phoenix]

You know, PF VoP doesn't have the bit about giving your share of the loot to the orphans. Depending on how your DM handles WBL... it might actually be a net gain. Not for you, you still suck. But for the party.

Or for your cohort. You do have a cohort, right? Possibly a familiar? Psicrystal? Is there any creature under your control that can use buff items on you?

Leadership was banned in OP...

[Talentless]

Leadership was banned in OP...

*WOOSH*

You here that? That was the sound of his point going over your head.

[Midnight_v]

Okay well here's the one that is the best:

Dark Moon Disciple Substitution Levels (CV, web): d6 HD
3rd level: Darkvision: Gain darkvision 60', lose still mind
7th level: Shadow Blend: Gain total concealment in less than full daylight, lose wholeness of body
12th level: Walk the Shadows: Gain dimension door to/from shadow, lose abundant step

Wait - a - minute:

7th level: Shadow Blend: Gain total concealment in less than full daylight, lose wholeness of body My heads 'splode. :smallfurious:

:smallamused: Seriously though thats pretty good.

Draconic fist seems pretty good as well:

Draconic Fist (DrM, p 11): Lose Bonus Feat. Your attacks deal energy damage.
Decent amount of uses and some good bonus damage. Depending on the need for that particular bonus feat.

and... the halfling monk from the races of the wild gives you skirmish. That, is good because it lets you take other skrimish related things. . .

So to sum up. You'd get: Total concealment almost always on, an energy boosting attack on your firsts X day/monk level, and skirmish.

Its not amazing but total concealment is huge and the damage boosts might be nice if maximized and used all at once.

[Randomguy]

Draconic fist actually replaces the bonus feat, which can be used to get stunning fist, which is MUCH better. Especially since in PHB2 you can get a feat that lets you add 1d6 fire damage to you unarmed strikes for one round as a swift action by expending one use of stunning fist.

Personally I think that this monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is a high tier three. Plus, you get a party roll. It's mainly good because it gives monks dexterity and later, wisdom to attacks and damage, so they can actually hit things and so that they don't need strength at all. It also gives monks 8 skill points per level, so he can actually spend points on ALL the iconic monk skills (Jump, tumble, balance, hide, move silently, listen, spot) and have enough points to put in search and disable device to make use of his trapfinding.

One very good item is the scorpion Kama. It's part of a magic item set for monks called Gary's monastic array. It's a +1 Kama that deals damage equal to the monk's unarmed damage, so it gives your monk a decent weapon to upgrade.

An eternal wand of greater magic weapon would be pretty useful. You could only use it twice a day, but each use would last 5 hours, so you can spend cash on weapon upgrades instead of upgrading you weapons from +1 to +2. At higher levels, you'd need to pay up for the higher caster level, or else it won't be as useful. If you make it a wand of greater magic fang instead, then he won't have to share it with the rest of the party.

Dual wielding guided kukris isn't a good idea, since monks aren't proficient with kukris, not to mention that pathfinder monks flurry of blows counts as two weapon fighting, and you can attack interchangeably with any weapon, so you might as well just hit him with the same kukri every time. Also, cold ice strike is a spell, not a monk ability.

[Zaq]

7th level: Shadow Blend: Gain total concealment in less than full daylight, lose wholeness of body
Wait - a - minute:
My heads 'splode. :smallfurious:

:smallamused: Seriously though thats pretty good.


Not that good. It's a (Su) power, so it takes a standard action to activate. Great for hiding and ambushes, but not so great when the angry guy with an axe is actually threatening your party . . . unless you're following the traditional "the Monk can run away, so he's awesome! Screw you, party!" mindset.

It does beat the hell out of Wholeness of Body, though. No argument there. It's just not permanent total concealment.

Although . . . now that I read it again . . . it doesn't have a duration. So maybe you can just turn it on, and then it IS permanent total concealment. Hmm. Weird. Maybe this entire post is pointless.

[Curious]

Draconic fist actually replaces the bonus feat, which can be used to get stunning fist, which is MUCH better. Especially since in PHB2 you can get a feat that lets you add 1d6 fire damage to you unarmed strikes for one round as a swift action by expending one use of stunning fist.

Personally I think that this monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is a high tier three. Plus, you get a party roll. It's mainly good because it gives monks dexterity and later, wisdom to attacks and damage, so they can actually hit things and so that they don't need strength at all. It also gives monks 8 skill points per level, so he can actually spend points on ALL the iconic monk skills (Jump, tumble, balance, hide, move silently, listen, spot) and have enough points to put in search and disable device to make use of his trapfinding.

One very good item is the scorpion Kama. It's part of a magic item set for monks called Gary's monastic array. It's a +1 Kama that deals damage equal to the monk's unarmed damage, so it gives your monk a decent weapon to upgrade.

An eternal wand of greater magic weapon would be pretty useful. You could only use it twice a day, but each use would last 5 hours, so you can spend cash on weapon upgrades instead of upgrading you weapons from +1 to +2. At higher levels, you'd need to pay up for the higher caster level, or else it won't be as useful. If you make it a wand of greater magic fang instead, then he won't have to share it with the rest of the party.

Dual wielding guided kukris isn't a good idea, since monks aren't proficient with kukris, not to mention that pathfinder monks flurry of blows counts as two weapon fighting, and you can attack interchangeably with any weapon, so you might as well just hit him with the same kukri every time. Also, cold ice strike is a spell, not a monk ability.

I believe that since two-weapon fighting specifies you must use two weapons, you probably have to have two weapons. Although you are right, you shouldn't use kukris; you should use brass knuckles, which use your unarmed damage and can be enchanted.

You misunderstand; Cold Ice Strike is indeed a spell, but Qinggong Monk allows you to trade out certain class abilities, such as the worthless Sun of the Tongue and Moon, for Cold Ice Strike.