Is it possible to play an all wizard party?

[gooddragon1]

Is it possible to play an all wizard party from level 1 with 4 people?

[macdaddy]

Only if your GM lets your hire a 1-2 1st level fighters and a cleric. Otherwise you would all be pretty much meat after your first or 2nd encounter.

[tyckspoon]

Yes. It takes some communication so you don't all decide to be the Magic Missile blaster dude, and some particular optimization you might not otherwise do is handy to help make it through to higher levels (basically optimize Initiative and everybody walks around with a loaded heavy crossbow. You get in a fight, the biggest threat eats four bolts to the face hopefully before it acts. Should drop any single half-way appropriate enemy on about levels 1-3.) Other than that, the standard applies- if your question is "Can a D&D Wizard do..." the answer is Yes. Especially if you're alright with multiclassing a bit, so you can get your skills-and-traps-Wizard and your fighty-Wizard (you can do those with straight Wizard too, but multiclassing and PrCing appropriately lets you do it without burning tons of spell slots on it.)

[Urpriest]

There was a PbP that did this on this forum awhile back. From all I heard it worked out.

[MesiDoomstalker]

As others have said, 4 pure Wizard 20s would have some issues with spell slots running out when trying to emulate other classes constantly. At lower levels before theurge/gish builds hit their stride you'd have issues. But after about 7th or 8th depending on the builds and you'd have all the best of other classes and only slightly delayed Wizardy goodness.

[Deth Muncher]

Four white mages? It'll never work.

[JaronK]

I'd recommend buying a riding dog or two, and having fun with Color Spray early on. Maybe have a UA Variant Necromancer as one of the Wizards to get a hitter that way. But yes, you can absolutely do it.

JaronK

[Greenish]

There was a PbP that did this on this forum awhile back. From all I heard it worked out.More than one. Though Arcane Adventures and the newer one started at level 3 or so.

[Midnight_v]

I've never tried buuuut... I'm gonna a go out on a limb here and say hell yes.

Now, thats totally contigent upon how much optimization skill you have, what sources you have available and what level you start at but... yeah, they totally can.
Would you like an illustration? I could link you to brilliantgameologists.com... :smallwink:

[Amphetryon]

Assuming 4 Master Specialists, I see no problem. An Abjurer, a Necromancer for healing and debuffing, a Conjurer for summons and CC, and either a Diviner or an Illusionist, depending on how your group handles Divinations and Illusions (there are DMs under whom an Illusionist is 20 levels of "please sir, may I?", and the same goes for Diviner).

Everyone gets Tomb-Tainted Soul for the above to work.

EDIT: Fix'd

[Greenish]

An Abrupt Jaunter AbjurerAbjurer can't take Abrupt Jaunt.

If you play smart, and DM hasn't set out to "prove a point about balanced parties", you should be okay.

[Endarire]

I played the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game with an all-Wizard group. I had to farm my way to level 5 to survive, but after that, it was all about the fireballs. I cleared the last boss's room in 2 rounds, before they could act.

In tabletop, it requires (or heavily implies) having a large number of disposable minions. Dogs, mules, horses, charmed minions, whatever.

[Runestar]

Sounds doable. Once they hit lv3, they can take reserve feats and effectively never run out of ammo. Prior to that, just stock up on scrolls, use SoD spells like sleep/colour spray and cross your fingers.

Plus, I don't think it is fair to say that wizard run out of slots. After all, won't fighters run out of hp to fight? :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sounds doable. Once they hit lv3, they can take reserve feats and effectively never run out of ammo. Prior to that, just stock up on scrolls, use SoD spells like sleep/colour spray and cross your fingers.

Plus, I don't think it is fair to say that wizard run out of slots. After all, won't fighters run out of hp to fight? :smalltongue:

Human: Preocious aprentice (Combust) + Fire reserve feat... done (use flaws to get more feats...)

[Runestar]

Human: Preocious aprentice (Combust) + Fire reserve feat... done (use flaws to get more feats...)

Questionable interpretation of the rules, and personally, I wouldn't allow it in my games. I know, a 1st lv barb already attacks for 2d6+1.5 str mod per swing, but still...:smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Level 1: Everyone gets high dex after investing in high int, and takes Improved Initiative.
Round 1: First wizard to go uses Grease on your enemy, others all use crossbows.
Round 2: As round 1, but first wizard uses crossbow bolt and second wizard uses Grease, to conserve spell slots. Only works if second wizard goes before enemy, otherwise first uses it.
Round 3: Third wizard uses Grease. This only works if he goes before the enemy, otherwise first or second uses it.
Round 4: If the enemy hasn't gone down after threes rounds of crossbow fire, something is wrong. If you honestly missed, make sure your dice aren't loaded.

Level 2: As level 1, but skip a round when casting Grease, as it now lasts another round.

Level 3-4: EVERYONE USE LEVITATE!!!

Level 5+: You use battlefield control and utility, and keep sniping them with crossbows from afar, or bows if you spent a feat.

Spend your feats to increase the DCs or durations of your spells, and spend the rest on making your attack bonus with a crossbow or bow higher.

[tyckspoon]

Questionable interpretation of the rules, and personally, I wouldn't allow it in my games.

Only if you're going to get very picky about the pluralization of "must be able to cast 2nd level spells", which does fairly stupid and generally against-intent things to pretty much every spellcasting requirement in the game as well. Otherwise it works quite cleanly (it's also rather overpowered for level 1, IMO, but it works, and it ceases to be especially relevant by level 3, so it's mostly only good for "our DM likes to make our level 1 characters go through 10 fights a day against Kobold Commoners, wat do?")

[Randomguy]

You'll probably need at least one gish. I suggest a focused specialist transmuter that takes advantage of share spells with improved familiar, and a few other feats to upgrade his familiar.

[Kogak]

I hate to copy an online game, but if the DM allows Warforged (Monster Manual III), a party of wizards does not need a cleric to heal one another. I do not have the traits in front of me at the moment, so I am not sure if this would make wizards more or less difficult with their other traits. I do recall they do not require sleeping (though 8 hours of rest is still required for spells), making the dreaded middle watch something easier to work out among party members too. :smallwink:

[Morph Bark]

Assuming 4 Master Specialists, I see no problem. An Abjurer, a Necromancer for healing and debuffing, a Conjurer for summons and CC, and either a Diviner or an Illusionist, depending on how your group handles Divinations and Illusions (there are DMs under whom an Illusionist is 20 levels of "please sir, may I?", and the same goes for Diviner).

Everyone gets Tomb-Tainted Soul for the above to work.

EDIT: Fix'd

One Changeling Racial Substitution Dual Transmutation/Illusion Specialist Wizard/Master Specialist, on the rocks!

[Gnaeus]

Assuming 4 Master Specialists, I see no problem. An Abjurer, a Necromancer for healing and debuffing, a Conjurer for summons and CC, and either a Diviner or an Illusionist, depending on how your group handles Divinations and Illusions (there are DMs under whom an Illusionist is 20 levels of "please sir, may I?", and the same goes for Diviner).

Everyone gets Tomb-Tainted Soul for the above to work.

EDIT: Fix'd

Yes, it works just fine. Alternately, you can swap tomb tainted soul for a party of warforged, or a conjurer with Arcane disciple who can use a CLW wand.

If every level 1 wizard is a focused specialist, they each have one spell per encounter. Very few cr appropriate enemies can withstand a color spray, a sleep and a grease. stragglers are Dazed and killed with x-bow fire.

Or you can even go the "traditional party route", where your conjurer tanks with Mage armor and abrupt jaunt, and the others lay down damage. It's not as good, but it can get you to level 3. After level 3, the all wizard party is likely to beat a typical balanced party.
There are really a number of ways to do it.


I do recall they do not require sleeping (though 8 hours of rest is still required for spells), making the dreaded middle watch something easier to work out among party members too. :smallwink:

By level 4 (maybe by level 3) rope trick has solved all your camping needs, and most of your concerns about running out of spells unless game is on a timetable.

[Runestar]

Only if you're going to get very picky about the pluralization of "must be able to cast 2nd level spells"

I actually interpreted it more as "Must be naturally able to cast 2nd lv spells from actual slots from your class". Maybe I am just idiosyncratic in that sense. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

You could also obviously sub in a Transmuter for the Necromancer, though that leaves either the Warforged route or means you'll be spending lots of time resting/healing/running away at low levels.

[Greenish]

One Changeling Racial Substitution Dual Transmutation/Illusion Specialist Wizard/Master Specialist, on the rocks!Given that either Transmutation or Illusion master specialist would have more than enough good spells to fill the specialist slots with, I'm not a great fan of Changeling Wizard 1 sub level. Changeling wizard 5 with Improved Familiar, though… :smallcool:

[Metahuman1]

Human: Preocious aprentice (Combust) + Fire reserve feat... done (use flaws to get more feats...)

Wouldn't energy substitution: Fire + any prepared damage spell + Fire Reserve feat do the same thing?

And no Gish really required. For the first six or seven levels get disposable minions until you've loaded up your Party Conjurer enough that he can make sure there will be Tanks to hide behind for every encounter.

And the Warfordged isn't a bad idea. Don't ban transmutation and the repairs spells let you fix each other, buy a bag of holding early too have people take turns hanging out in too get spells back (Don't need to breath or sleep.). Put Contact poisons on yourselves to make things go bad fast for something that get's it's hooks in you in melee.

Traps a problem? Make Unseen Servants push some random object that's heavy in front of the party to set them off, and to make sure that it's not resetting. Then Jam it with Prestidigitation if it is.

With the fire reserve feat trick, find out if you can get it set up to have different kinds of energy and boom, you no longer care about immunity's and thus don't need to prepare more then one direct attack spell. Any of you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One Changeling Racial Substitution Dual Transmutation/Illusion Specialist Wizard <snip>

... how would that work for a gish base? I think I'll have to check my copy of RoE; but this idea amuses me ( go long enough to get the morphic familiar and abuse improved familiar :smallamused:)

[Big Fau]

I actually interpreted it more as "Must be naturally able to cast 2nd lv spells from actual slots from your class". Maybe I am just idiosyncratic in that sense. :smallbiggrin:

Focused Specialist with Precocious Apprentice. This is a (somewhat) widely known trick that gives you multiple 2nd level spell slots without the weaknesses of Precocious Apprentice.


And they are indeed from your class.

[Greenish]

Wouldn't energy substitution: Fire + any prepared damage spell + Fire Reserve feat do the same thing?Not at 1st level, since Fiery Burst requires 2nd level spells.


... how would that work for a gish base?Probably better than it'd work on full caster base. If you ever make a build on that base, do post the result here.

[elonin]

I'd think so but would need to coordinate builds to fill different roles. 4 wizards trying "god" build wouldn't work, since they depend on glass cannon or BSF.

On the other hand 4 clerics would have an easy time of it.

[ericgrau]

What's worse is if you prepare sleep, color spray, etc. and a few zombies come your way...

Diversification of spells is important.

Also remember you can't go pure control like normal because there's no one else to do damage. You actually need maybe a blaster and a half, maybe more.

[Metahuman1]

4 Batman wizards on the other hand could be interesting. Everyone could conceivably be responsible for there own disposable minions to get them though encounters for the melee end of things and there own tricks for steady damage output, and there'd almost certainly never be a shortage of key buffs, save or spells, and useful divination's and utility spells.

[Waker]

One Changeling Racial Substitution Dual Transmutation/Illusion Specialist Wizard/Master Specialist, on the rocks!
Now I kinda wanna go Changeling Wizard 3/Master Illusionist 10/Master Transmuter 7. The idea is just silly enough to work.

[sreservoir]

What's worse is if you prepare sleep, color spray, etc. and a few zombies come your way...

Diversification of spells is important.

Also remember you can't go pure control like normal because there's no one else to do damage. You actually need maybe a blaster and a half, maybe more.

it might not actually be too bad if everyone just went mailman, focusing on different groups of spells, and did a bit of control on the side, though.

[grarrrg]

Four white mages? It'll never work.

:smallsigh:
White Mage = Cleric
Black Mage = Wizard

Better luck next time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

:smallsigh:
White Mage = Cleric
Black Mage = Wizard

Better luck next time.

Black Mage = sorcerer with offensive focus (more spells per day that way).

Red Mage = wizard.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Black Mage = sorcerer with offensive focus (more spells per day that way).

Red Mage = wizard.

Wizard = Red Mage done right.

[olthar]

Sleep is a first level spell. So yes.

It depends on how the DM plays. If by RAW, then it should be doable. When I DM (and the game I'm currently a PC in) 8 hours rest means 8 hours sleep. So there is no 2 hour adventuring day. I'd say we average something like 7 encounters per day (encounters because we often try to find alternatives to fighting). In that kind of game fighters become much more important because they can keep swinging their swords while the wizards fail fast. In a game where you can do the 2 hour adventuring day there is no reason that an all wizard party wouldn't work.

[NNescio]

Sleep is a first level spell. So yes.

It depends on how the DM plays. If by RAW, then it should be doable. When I DM (and the game I'm currently a PC in) 8 hours rest means 8 hours sleep. So there is no 2 hour adventuring day. I'd say we average something like 7 encounters per day (encounters because we often try to find alternatives to fighting). In that kind of game fighters become much more important because they can keep swinging their swords while the wizards fail fast. In a game where you can do the 2 hour adventuring day there is no reason that an all wizard party wouldn't work.

HP is a limited resource.

[Greenish]

When I DM (and the game I'm currently a PC in) 8 hours rest means 8 hours sleep. So there is no 2 hour adventuring day.I can sleep for 16 hours or more. 8 hours of sleep, 2 of adventure, 8 of sleep, 2 of adventure, no problem (except for waking up).

[Leon]

Is it possible to play an all wizard party from level 1 with 4 people?

Yes, its possible for any group of four classes to do so.
Some may require more caution than others but its a doable option

[grarrrg]

Black Mage = sorcerer with offensive focus (more spells per day that way).

Red Mage = wizard.

First off my point still stands. A White Mage in does not equal a Wizard.

And the closest class to a Red Mage would be the Bard, a Wizard is not competent enough with melee, and a Red Mage doesn't have a ton of spell slots.

(as for the closest class to THE Red Mage... Planar Shepard Druid?)

[2xMachina]

Sleep is a first level spell. So yes.

It depends on how the DM plays. If by RAW, then it should be doable. When I DM (and the game I'm currently a PC in) 8 hours rest means 8 hours sleep. So there is no 2 hour adventuring day. I'd say we average something like 7 encounters per day (encounters because we often try to find alternatives to fighting). In that kind of game fighters become much more important because they can keep swinging their swords while the wizards fail fast. In a game where you can do the 2 hour adventuring day there is no reason that an all wizard party wouldn't work.

Reserve feats >> fighter with weapon

[Morph Bark]

Given that either Transmutation or Illusion master specialist would have more than enough good spells to fill the specialist slots with, I'm not a great fan of Changeling Wizard 1 sub level. Changeling wizard 5 with Improved Familiar, though… :smallcool:

Now I kinda wanna go Changeling Wizard 3/Master Illusionist 10/Master Transmuter 7. The idea is just silly enough to work.

The idea is that, as written, Master Specialist would advance both specializations at the same time. :smallamused:

I think there might be ways to get more specializations.

[Elitarismo]

Is it possible to play an all wizard party from level 1 with 4 people?

Absolutely. It'd be quite easy even.

[Amphetryon]

Sleep is a first level spell. So yes.

It depends on how the DM plays. If by RAW, then it should be doable. When I DM (and the game I'm currently a PC in) 8 hours rest means 8 hours sleep. So there is no 2 hour adventuring day. I'd say we average something like 7 encounters per day (encounters because we often try to find alternatives to fighting). In that kind of game fighters become much more important because they can keep swinging their swords while the wizards fail fast. In a game where you can do the 2 hour adventuring day there is no reason that an all wizard party wouldn't work.

In a game where you're trying to find alternatives to fighting, why does a Fighter's ability to swing his sword repeatedly matter so much? Wizards, with their high INT scores contributing to better problem-solving skills, should excel in that environment.

[ericgrau]

HP is a limited resource.
Cure light wound wands are cheap.

Long dungeons where stopping to rest could cause monsters to likewise do something nasty are pretty neat, but they make for long gaming sessions.

[faceroll]

Depends on available resources. If you can swap out your familiar for an animal companion (from UA), pick up a wild cohort (from WotC online), and get a skeletal minion from another UA variant, then you should have minions taken care of for the low levels, until you can start charming & dominating & calling & raising & crafting better ones.

Precocious Apprentice to pick up Web is awesome. It has a long duration, large radius, and will absolutely wreck most encounters. That will give you time to divide and conquer, run away, or set up that portable ballista you brought.


Grease

Prone opponents get a +4 to their AC vs ranged attacks, or maybe it's ranged attackers getting a -4 penalty. Either way, Grease is going to basically make opponents immune to crossbow.


Sleep is a first level spell. So yes.

Lots of CR appropriate encounters are 100% immune to it.

[tyckspoon]

Cure light wound wands are cheap.


But not readily usable by Fighters. 'course, if you're talking about fighters the general "I sword at people" archetypes and not Fighter the specific class, then a level in Paladin or Ranger takes care of that handily.

[Eldariel]

Also remember you can't go pure control like normal because there's no one else to do damage. You actually need maybe a blaster and a half, maybe more.

Blasters run out of spell slots too fast. It's more efficient to use a summoner or a Gish. Do note that on level 1-2 the difference between a Fighter and a Wizard far as attacking goes is +1; far from the end of the world.

Given the stats for it low level Wizards do fine as warriors with sufficient magic backup and once you get Alter Self, the combat capability skyrockets in-sofar as to being able to actually beat CR-equivalent opponents without debuffs.


But yeah, this can be done. Generally, on low levels you'll want mostly kiting-style combat with ranged weapons above and beyond the encounters where you burn spells (though given 16 1st level spells, you can afford to use them quite often). Later on you can power through combat encounters with Polymorph-line and Planar Bindings very easily.

Arcane Adventures (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125074) did this though the campaign never went very far (and few of us were multiclassed).

[Dr.Epic]

I guess so. You'd have to go about combat very clever since you have no meat shield. Also, you'll have to spend a bunch on healing potions.

[sreservoir]

you could also alter self, quick potion, and transformation targetting familiar, no? the hp might be a small issue, though, I guess?

or, well, get someone to take wild cohort. hm, can wild cohorts be replaced? it doesn't seem to give a mechanism to do so.

[Eldariel]

I guess so. You'd have to go about combat very clever since you have no meat shield. Also, you'll have to spend a bunch on healing potions.

It's not difficult to gain the ability to use Wands of Cure Light Wounds on Wizards. For instance, Arcane Disciple: Healing would work.

[sreservoir]

It's not difficult to gain the ability to use Wands of Cure Light Wounds on Wizards. For instance, Arcane Disciple: Healing would work.

a eternal wand would work fine without any other investment, and is cheaper after 54 uses.

[faceroll]

Blasters run out of spell slots too fast. It's more efficient to use a summoner or a Gish.

I've never seen a summoned monster that, by the time you got it, was worth summoning for anything but its SLAs or whatever.


a eternal wand would work fine without any other investment, and is cheaper after 54 uses.

2d8+2 HP/day isn't terrific, though.

[tyckspoon]

I guess so. You'd have to go about combat very clever since you have no meat shield.

Option 1: Have one of your Wizards spend a little more in Strength/Con instead of Int/Dex, wear armor, stand in front and hit things with a quarterstaff. His AC should be 16 or so, which is passable for 1st level (alternately, the tank-designate fills all his slots with Mage Armor.)

Option 2: Set aside a chunk of everybody's starting cash. Use it to buy a riding dog and some barding for it, use it as your muscle (somebody should probably also cross-class some Handle Animal for this route.) If you want to be really cheesy about it, have somebody sell their starting spellbook and use the proceeds to buy like a dozen dogs, maybe some humanoid mercenaries to carry extra crossbows.

Option 3: 1 or more of the Wizards uses the UA variant to trade Familiar for Animal Companion. 1/2 effective Druid level means these won't be relevant for all that long, but a couple of Riding Dogs/Wolves/(war-trained) Horses will see you to level 3 or so pretty easily.

For healing.. well, if you're doing the first few levels correctly, you really shouldn't be taking too much damage; all the hits should be on disposable minions or you fill things with crossbow bolts before they can get you. Make it to level 2 or 3 and there will be enough cash available to do Arcane Disciple + a CLW stick or pick up some Healing Belts.

[faceroll]

Option 1: Have one of your Wizards spend a little more in Strength/Con instead of Int/Dex, wear armor, stand in front and hit things with a quarterstaff. His AC should be 16 or so, which is passable for 1st level (alternately, the tank-designate fills all his slots with Mage Armor.)

For healing.. well, if you're doing the first few levels correctly, you really shouldn't be taking too much damage

I don't see a wizard with 16 AC hitting stuff with a quarterstaff not getting terribly, terribly hurt.

[tyckspoon]

I don't see a wizard with 16 AC hitting stuff with a quarterstaff not getting terribly, terribly hurt.

It's the job of the rest of the group to make sure anything he has to face off gets put down before it can do major harm... and that's not really worse off than a Fighter at level 1, anyway, when you can barely afford a breastplate, shield, and weapon if you're trying to max AC and were granted maximum starting gold. It's not ideal, certainly, but you're not that worse off than a 'traditional' meatwall if you really have to do it. Preferably you use one of the other methods I mentioned or use the spells at your disposal to handle most of your opponents from range.

Edit: Rotate the job if you have to. One guy gets beat up, he sheds the armor, hands it off to one of the other Wizards.. mind, 'CR appropriate' at this level means either a single opponent that can be readily focus-fired by your squad of readied crossbows, or multiple things that have really crappy to-hit and damage output, so either way you shouldn't be at that much risk if the party is coordinated correcly.

[faceroll]

that's not really worse off than a Fighter at level 1.

The fighter always gets terribly, terribly hurt.

[tyckspoon]

The fighter always gets terribly, terribly hurt.

Well, yeah, 'low level meatshield' is a *terrible idea.* But if you really insist you must have somebody filling this frankly suicidal job, you can do that with a Wizard too.

[Eldariel]

I've never seen a summoned monster that, by the time you got it, was worth summoning for anything but its SLAs or whatever.

Have you ever played a Malconvoker?

[Dr.Epic]

Option 1: Have one of your Wizards spend a little more in Strength/Con instead of Int/Dex, wear armor, stand in front and hit things with a quarterstaff. His AC should be 16 or so, which is passable for 1st level (alternately, the tank-designate fills all his slots with Mage Armor.)

Option 2: Set aside a chunk of everybody's starting cash. Use it to buy a riding dog and some barding for it, use it as your muscle (somebody should probably also cross-class some Handle Animal for this route.) If you want to be really cheesy about it, have somebody sell their starting spellbook and use the proceeds to buy like a dozen dogs, maybe some humanoid mercenaries to carry extra crossbows.

Option 3: 1 or more of the Wizards uses the UA variant to trade Familiar for Animal Companion. 1/2 effective Druid level means these won't be relevant for all that long, but a couple of Riding Dogs/Wolves/(war-trained) Horses will see you to level 3 or so pretty easily.

For healing.. well, if you're doing the first few levels correctly, you really shouldn't be taking too much damage; all the hits should be on disposable minions or you fill things with crossbow bolts before they can get you. Make it to level 2 or 3 and there will be enough cash available to do Arcane Disciple + a CLW stick or pick up some Healing Belts.

Or use your head like a wizard should. You can plan ambushes. Use strategies. Don't just rush into combat all the time. Try and use diplomacy (or lie). Be creative about it.

[faceroll]

Have you ever played a Malconvoker?

Malconvokers are trash. Losing a caster level is not worth it for being able to summon too crappy monsters instead of one. The only time summoning is worth it is when you're abusing versatile spellcaster and warmage or something.

[ericgrau]

It's the job of the rest of the group to make sure anything he has to face off gets put down before it can do major harm... and that's not really worse off than a Fighter at level 1, anyway.
Similar AC briefly for 1 level, yes. The fighter has 12 HP, the wizard 6. One hit away from dropped. The fighter 2d6+3 damage, the quarterstaff wizard 1d6+2 if that. Hitting AC 13 orcs is hard enough already with a high strength and weapon focus / rage. Try a crossbow and some kind of kiting technique through spells or alchemy and concealment tactics so you can hide and rest up. Be a wizard, not half a fighter. Plus the crossbow does about as much damage as a quarterstaff, but at range.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Malconvokers are trash. Losing a caster level is not worth it for being able to summon too crappy monsters instead of one. The only time summoning is worth it is when you're abusing versatile spellcaster and warmage or something.

Except for the fact that Malconvoker gets a much, much better chassis than warmage. Or the fact that it actually has class features that boost the ever living hell out of your summoned monsters.:smallsigh:

[tyckspoon]

Similar AC briefly for 1 level, yes. The fighter has 12 HP, the wizard 6. One hit away from dropped. The fighter 2d6+3 damage, the quarterstaff wizard 1d6+2 if that. Hitting AC 13 orcs is hard enough already with a high strength and weapon focus / rage. Try a crossbow and some kind of kiting technique through spells or alchemy and concealment tactics so you can hide and rest up. Be a wizard, not half a fighter. Plus the crossbow does about as much damage as a quarterstaff, but at range.

Yup. If you look upthread you'll note this is what I actually advocate. If you're looking at four wizards and you actually think "but this will never work, where's the meat?" you don't have the right mindset for it; you shouldn't be saying "Ok, we're going to get hit, we need somebody who can absorb one or two." You should be planning around the idea of "what can we do to make sure nobody ever has a fair chance to hit us?"

[umbergod]

Malconvokers are trash. Losing a caster level is not worth it for being able to summon too crappy monsters instead of one. The only time summoning is worth it is when you're abusing versatile spellcaster and warmage or something.

guessing you never played a malconvoker. even unoptimized and non min/maxed, malconvokers make beastly summoners and their summons wreck stuff.

[Eldariel]

Malconvokers are trash. Losing a caster level is not worth it for being able to summon too crappy monsters instead of one. The only time summoning is worth it is when you're abusing versatile spellcaster and warmage or something.

A Malconvoker can easily get summons to match CR appropriate encounters. Compared to normal Summon Monster, you get twice the Monsters and twice the Augment Summoning bonuses (and the free Extends and all that too). That's a lot of free value; about 2-3 CRs worth at least.

Of course losing a caster level isn't optimal but the class is strong enough within its specialty that the trade isn't actually automatically a negative one. Basically, if you can win a CR appropriate encounter with one Summon Monster, they're probably good enough.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A Malconvoker can easily get summons to match CR appropriate encounters. Compared to normal Summon Monster, you get twice the Monsters and twice the Augment Summoning bonuses (and the free Extends and all that too). That's a lot of free value; about 2-3 CRs worth at least.

Of course losing a caster level isn't optimal but the class is strong enough within its specialty that the trade isn't actually automatically a negative one. Basically, if you can win a CR appropriate encounter with one Summon Monster, they're probably good enough.

It's also a good way to create BSFs (and maybe glass cannons) for GOD.

[sreservoir]

Have you ever played a Malconvoker?

or a binder binding zceryll. when the limitation is negligible, just about anything is worth summoning, if only to maintain your meatshields.

[faceroll]

Except for the fact that Malconvoker gets a much, much better chassis than warmage. Or the fact that it actually has class features that boost the ever living hell out of your summoned monsters.:smallsigh:

Yeah, but with warmage (and other classes that cast like it), you actually get good things to summon. At least for a little while. And of course you could put malconvoker on there, if you really like summoning useless things.


guessing you never played a malconvoker. even unoptimized and non min/maxed, malconvokers make beastly summoners and their summons wreck stuff.

Yeah, I've never seen that happen. I probably play in higher power games, though, where the ability to summon a large bug or two just isn't all that tits.


A Malconvoker can easily get summons to match CR appropriate encounters. Compared to normal Summon Monster, you get twice the Monsters and twice the Augment Summoning bonuses (and the free Extends and all that too). That's a lot of free value; about 2-3 CRs worth at least.

Of course losing a caster level isn't optimal but the class is strong enough within its specialty that the trade isn't actually automatically a negative one. Basically, if you can win a CR appropriate encounter with one Summon Monster, they're probably good enough.

Any class that's primary focus can be negated with a level 1 spell isn't that strong.

[maximus25]

You just need a summon specialized guy, a couple blasters, and one buffer. Bam, no one can touch you.

You just need lots of potions.

[Eldariel]

Any class that's primary focus can be negated with a level 1 spell isn't that strong.

Doesn't protect against weapon attacks (many demons and devils use weapons) and can be overcome with SR. Pro-X isn't a very relevant defense when you get to pick your Summons.

[Lans]

Option 1: Have one of your Wizards spend a little more in Strength/Con instead of Int/Dex, wear armor, stand in front and hit things with a quarterstaff. His AC should be 16 or so, which is passable for 1st level (alternately, the tank-designate fills all his slots with Mage Armor.)Better idea is either a strong heart halfling with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige, and a tower shield for an AC of 25, take the jaunt variant for more durability.

Or take a Warforge with Adamantine Body and a Tower Shield for 23 AC

If you have flaws you can an on Shape Soulmeld Blood Talons and Astral Vambraces for what is essentially 9 extra hp and 2 dr.




Option 3: 1 or more of the Wizards uses the UA variant to trade Familiar for Animal Companion. 1/2 effective Druid level means these won't be relevant for all that long, but a couple of Riding Dogs/Wolves/(war-trained) Horses will see you to level 3 or so pretty easily.

Wild Cohort would be better, trade scribe scroll for improved initiative to make up the feat loss. Or you could do both.

[NNescio]

Or take a Warforge with Adamantine Body and a Tower Shield for 23 AC.

Uh... Adamantine Body has an ASF of 35%. And unlike the Tower Shield, it's not exactly easy to get rid of it later on.

[Incanur]

I suggest the following as possible four-PC all-wizard party. I think this team would do fine for the first few levels and quickly become almost unstoppable.

Conjurer
8|14|14|18|8|8 6hp 12 AC F+2 R+2 W+1
Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist, Abrupt Jaunt, Martial Wizard
Banned Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy
Feats: Cloudy Conjuration, Improved Initiative (Bonus), Spell Focus - Conjuration
Spells per day: five 0 level and four 1st level

Commentary: Here you have the classic God build. Cloudy Conjuration rules at first level. Use it to debuff opponents or protect yourself by denying line of sight - even a simple caltrops spell triggers the feat! Cast save-or-suck spells like grease and wall of smoke or even blast with orbs if need be. This character both excels from the beginning and gains power exponentially as the game progresses. The master specialist capstone at level 13 represents your pinnacle of power. Why do conjurers get such nice things?

Necromancer
8|14|14|18|8|8 6hp 12 AC F+2 R+2 W+1
Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist, Skeletal Minion: 6hp, 17 AC, battleaxe or warhammer +1(1d8+1)
Banned Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Conjuration
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll (Bonus)

Commentary: Equipped with leather armor and large shield, your minion has a solid AC in addition to damage reduction. You cast cause fear, ray of enfeeblement, or summon undead I. If you want the minion to advance, you're stuck in necromancer. Here I assume the master of rays approach with Split Ray and Metamagic School Focus. Consider taking Knowledge Devotion at level three.

Transmuter
14|14|14|16|8|8 9hp 12 AC F+2 R+2 W+1
Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist, Martial Wizard
Toad familiar
Banned Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy
Feats: Toughening Transmutation, Improved Initiative (Bonus)

Commentary: You can play secondary melee with fist of stone and the damage reduction provided by Toughening Transmutation. As much fun as attacking at +5 and dealing 1d6+7 damage is - or +5/+0 (1d6+5) on a full attack - you'll often be better off employing the countless subtle tricks this school allows. Eventually you and your familiar become absolute combat powerhouses thanks to broken spells.

Enchanter
8|12|14|18|8|10 6hp 11 AC F+2 R+1 W+1
Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist, Social Proficiency, Martial Wizard
Banned Schools: Evocation, Necromancy, Conjuration
Feats: Apprentice - Spellcaster, Improved Initiative (Bonus), Unsettling Enchantment

Commentary: This build provides Use Magic Device capability through the apprentice feat as well as social skills. Unsettling Enchantment makes daze a guaranteed debuff. You're super effective against humanoids early on but could run into trouble against other foes or as the game progresses. Enthralled minions help with such disabilities.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uh... Adamantine Body has an ASF of 35%. And unlike the Tower Shield, it's not exactly easy to get rid of it later on.

Plain old warforged is good though. +2 AC, +2 to con, bunch of immunities, never be caught by surprise while sleeping.

[ericgrau]

Given the lack of damage dealing melee, boosted summons seem like a good idea. And then they could combine with the most of the best battlefield control wizard spells which are meant for a party. IMO a good party might include one battlefield control, 1 summoner and then the other two slots are fairly flexible. Maybe more control, a blaster, or whatever. Though I should mention that, without boosts, standard summons are even weaker than a wizard poking things with a dagger.

[Lans]

Uh... Adamantine Body has an ASF of 35%. And unlike the Tower Shield, it's not exactly easy to get rid of it later on.

Truenamers would kill for a 35% fail rate

[Incanur]

Given the lack of damage dealing melee, boosted summons seem like a good idea.

Yeah, another idea I had was the focused specialist conjurer with the standard-action summoning ACF, free Augment Summoning, Extend Spell, and Metamagic School Focus. At level 3 you pick up Cloudy Conjuration and can then summon six rounds of buffed celestial riding dog or fiendish large monstrous centipede.


Though I should mention that, without boosts, standard summons are even weaker than a wizard poking things with a dagger.

Untrue. A celestial dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm) attacks at +2 and deals 1d4+1 damage. You average first-level wizard with a dagger attacks at -1 and deals 1d4-1 damage. An augmented celestial dog attacks at +4 and deals 1d4+3. Still rather pathetic, but perhaps serviceable. The buffed celestial giant fire beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantFireBeetle.htm) does the best at +3 and 2d4+2 damage.

[Big Fau]

Truenamers would kill for a 35% fail rate

Funny that: They'd have to kill something first.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Funny that: They'd have to kill something first.

A commoner. Those housecats are too darn tough.

[hex0]

1. Spellthief 1/Rogue 1/Illusionist arcane trickster
2. Transmuter/Gish
3. Conjurer
4. Necromancer or a Generalist