Where do the psionics fit in?

[hobbitkniver]

I almost never see them anywhere, but I have one friend who uses them all the time and I was wondering where they fit in on the tiers list. They seem to be incredibly better than most martial characters. I'm especially interested in Lurk because I see it the most.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I almost never see them anywhere, but I have one friend who uses them all the time and I was wondering where they fit in on the tiers list. They seem to be incredibly better than most martial characters. I'm especially interested in Lurk because I see it the most.

I usually see it as something like:

Psion - 2
Psychic Warrior - Solid 3
Ardent - 2 to 3
Wilder - 4-ish
Divine Mind - 5
Lurk - 4
Psychic Rogue - 3
Soulknife - 6 to 5

Mind you, Lurk is usually regarded as something of a trap, with Psychic Rogue as the better option.

[mootoall]

Your forgot the (StP) Erudite, which is solidly Tier 1.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Your forgot the (StP) Erudite, which is solidly Tier 1.

Erudite is a Psion variant and StP is an ACF, which I wasn't counting up there.

StP Erudite is Tier 0, at any rate. Regular Erudite is Tier 1.

[Urpriest]

I generally see Wilder anywhere between 2 and 4, depending. While its powers known are crippling, it also can pick up any broken trick that a Psion can, and do it at higher ML. So much less versatile, but can still break the game.

The others are pretty spot on, with Soulknife IIRC being one of the definitions of Tier 6, with Divine Mind possibly along for the ride.

[Amphetryon]

Erudite is a Psion variant and StP is an ACF, which I wasn't counting up there.

StP Erudite is Tier 0, at any rate. Regular Erudite is Tier 1.

I've seen it argued that without StP, Erudite is possibly Tier 2, due to versatility and access issues.

[jindra34]

Would someone mind explaining to me why the Lurk falls short?

[Cog]

I've seen it argued that without StP, Erudite is possibly Tier 2, due to versatility and access issues.
The problem is Erudite's funky UPD wording. By the chart, you only get a few unique powers per day. Hidden in the text is that you get that number separately for each level of power you know. The distinction seems worth a tier, to me.

[Amphetryon]

Would someone mind explaining to me why the Lurk falls short?
Its powers list is generally seen as lacking for a Rogue-analog. It has a hard time filling a DPR role of a melee Rogue at a similar level, isn't able to fill a scout/sneak role as easily as Rogue because of class skills, and is generally more MAD.

[Big Fau]

The problem is Erudite's funky UPD wording. By the chart, you only get a few unique powers per day. Hidden in the text is that you get that number separately for each level of power you know. The distinction seems worth a tier, to me.

Especially because they are like playing a Beguiler, except you get to choose every one of your powers "known" spontaneously whenever you manifest something.


Its powers list is generally seen as lacking for a Rogue-analog. It has a hard time filling a DPR role of a melee Rogue at a similar level, isn't able to fill a scout/sneak role as easily as Rogue because of class skills, and is generally more MAD.

With regards to the DPR problem: The Devs probably expected players to use Energy Bolt and their Sneak Attack variant to make up for it.


Which is why it falls short. It's like using a Metapsionic feat that is vastly inferior to Empower Power.

[Zagaroth]

umm, kind of wondering what StP stands for with regards to Erudite. Familiar with everything else.

[Greenish]

umm, kind of wondering what StP stands for with regards to Erudite. Familiar with everything else.Spell-to-Power. It lets you to convert any existing (arcane?) spell into a power you can manifest. You can probably see why it's considered tier 0.

[Big Fau]

umm, kind of wondering what StP stands for with regards to Erudite. Familiar with everything else.

Spell to Power. AKA: I can "cast" every non-9th level Arcane spell ever printed because I'm just that effing broken.


Edit: Ninja'ed.

[Vemynal]

"Spell to Power"

since you are converting spell levels to a certain # of power points which you can spend on your powers

edit - you ninja'd my ninja!

[Mando Knight]

umm, kind of wondering what StP stands for with regards to Erudite. Familiar with everything else.
Spell to Power. It's an ACF that lets the Erudite learn spells essentially like a Wizard, granting him access to not only the Psionic list, but also pretty much every spell he can get his hands on.

Or, at least, that's if I recall correctly. Don't have the book myself, but that's what I picked up from CharOp discussions.

Edit: Wow, I'm slow tonight.

[Big Fau]

Or, at least, that's if I recall correctly. Don't have the book myself, but that's what I picked up from CharOp discussions.


Nitpick: Both the Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) and StP variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) are available online.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Spell to Power. It's an ACF that lets the Erudite learn spells essentially like a Wizard, granting him access to not only the Psionic list, but also pretty much every spell he can get his hands on.

Or, at least, that's if I recall correctly. Don't have the book myself, but that's what I picked up from CharOp discussions.

Edit: Wow, I'm slow tonight.

I've found my next character concept! :smallamused:

[Mando Knight]

Nitpick: Both the Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) and StP variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) are available online.
...Did not realize that. Base Erudite is missing any kind of table, though, so you need to crib off of someone to get the power points and unique powers per day and such.

I've found my next character concept! :smallamused:
What, an StP Erudite who comes in fourth?

[Big Fau]

...Did not realize that. Base Erudite is missing any kind of table, though, so you need to crib off of someone to get the power points and unique powers per day and such.

The PP is as Psions, since the Erudite is a variant of the Psion class.

UPD though, yeah you need the book.

[MesiDoomstalker]

...Did not realize that. Base Erudite is missing any kind of table, though, so you need to crib off of someone to get the power points and unique powers per day and such.

What, an StP Erudite who comes in fourth?

No, a StP Erudite that lets everybody THINK he came in fourth. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Mr.Bookworm]

Spell to Power. It's an ACF that lets the Erudite learn spells essentially like a Wizard, granting him access to not only the Psionic list, but also pretty much every spell he can get his hands on.

Or, at least, that's if I recall correctly. Don't have the book myself, but that's what I picked up from CharOp discussions.

Edit: Wow, I'm slow tonight.

The other thing usually brought up in StP Erudite discussion is how you can trivially gain infinite power points a day with Mental Pinnacle, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) although StP is already broken enough.

[sreservoir]

The other thing usually brought up in StP Erudite discussion is how you can trivially gain infinite power points a day with Mental Pinnacle, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) although StP is already broken enough.

mind, infinite PP aren't actually broken; you've had rope trick for some eight levels anyway by then, so it's really only useful for time-sensitive things.

[elonin]

I don't get it does the erudite convert spells to pp or effectivly get his spells list to psionic powers known?

[sreservoir]

neither. the erudite learns powers by spending xp, including discipline powers one level lower than max. they also get psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat for no apparent reason.

spell to power trades out the level 1 bonus feat for the ability to treat any arcane spell as a discipline power for learning.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Even without Spell-to-Power shenanigans, the Erudite can still approach tier 1 in a similar way to an Artificer. With psionic item creation feats, they can tap into their potentially vast reservoir of powers known and craft items, both for obscure niche utility powers and dorjes of bread-and-butter powers. However, much like artificers, that depends on having the money and time to craft, which is certainly not guaranteed.

[stainboy]

Would someone mind explaining to me why the Lurk falls short?

Lurk augments only work on one attack per round. 1/round melee abilities usually mean a class only works from levels 1-8 so already we're suspicious.

Lurks' melee abilities don't synergize well with anything. Augments take your swift and only work on one attack per round. Psionic sneak attack requires psionic focus. So they don't play nice with swift powers, psionic feats, or basic rogue optimization. A gish that can't synergize its abilities is dead in the water.

The lurk power list is underwhelming. It's half the psywar list (the swift-buff half that lurks can't use with augments) plus some utility that's too situational for a class with so few powers known.

...And anyway, we already have a psion/rogue gish. Psyrogue is less interesting because it's just 2/3 of a rogue glued to 2/3 of a psywar, but who cares, it works better.

[Greenish]

Also, Lurk is from Complete Urgh. You can get some mileage from the book (ardent, soulbow, practised manifester), but you're better off ignoring most of the book.

[Big Fau]

Also, Lurk is from Complete Urgh. You can get some mileage from the book (ardent, soulbow, practised manifester), but you're better off ignoring most of the book.

I've seen it called Complete Crap, but never that before.

[stainboy]

neither. the erudite learns powers by spending xp, including discipline powers one level lower than max. they also get psicrystal affinity as a bonus feat for no apparent reason.

spell to power trades out the level 1 bonus feat for the ability to treat any arcane spell as a discipline power for learning.

And it's 20 xp/erudite level. That'd be good over a really long time period, but in an actual finite game PsyReform shuffling is almost as good and probably cheaper.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Also, Lurk is from Complete Urgh. You can get some mileage from the book (ardent, soulbow, practised manifester), but you're better off ignoring most of the book.

Fixed that (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) for you.

But, yeah, the Complete Psionic is just really not worth it at all.

[Zaq]

Complete Urgh.


Complete Crap



But, yeah, the Complete Psionic is just really not worth it at all.

OK, seriously, Complete Psionic has about the same crap-to-gems ratio of every other Complete book. In fact, I'd put it ahead of Complete Warrior.

Yes, it commits some pretty egregious fluff sins, and I'm not going to say otherwise, but really now, the reputation it has is really much worse than it deserves. None of the Complete books are pure gold from start to finish, and aside from Complete Divine, you're lucky if you get two genuinely interesting and useful base classes in any one of 'em. They all have piles of useless feats (you're going to tell me that Dwarven Urgrosh Soul Blade is significantly worse than Death Blow, Eagle Claw Attack, Soul of the North, Boar's Ferocity, or Lucky Break? Sure, it's no better, but I'd call it on par), piles of useless PrCs (hell, just leaf through the Iron Chef archives . . . quite a few are from the Completes, after all), and so on. Mixed in with the crap, you find a few things worth using. It's the same across the board. Some are slightly stronger, some are slightly weaker, but they're all about the same.

Yes, I know about the stealth errata, which is kinda classless. Yes, I know about the Divine Mind's fluff. Still, I think folks as a whole are too harsh on CPsi.

[Varil]

Having played an Erudite, I'd put them at tier 1, personally. You're a level behind for them, but being able to draw from *all* of the psionic disciplines is actually pretty powerful, even without StP. Even if you're a level behind, low level psionic powers scale so well that I very rarely felt the need to worry about higher level powers unless they were doing something unique.

In fact, most situations can be handled with a nice variety of low-level discipline powers. Need a tank? Astral Construct. Need to shut something down with stat damage? Ego whip. Real damage? Energy Missile.

For late game shenanigans you get tricks with Schism and Fission(or both). Teleportation. Scrying. Opening doors. I was even constrained to my total powers per day being a total rather than by spell level, and I never really felt super constrained once I got up to about 3 or 4 powers per day. It isn't a *lot*, but if you have one "ol' reliable" and 2-3 wildcards you can accomplish a lot when you can bust out any trick in your library at the exact moment you need it most.

tl;dr?

Erudites are psionic Batmen.

[Big Fau]

OK, seriously, Complete Psionic has about the same crap-to-gems ratio of every other Complete book. In fact, I'd put it ahead of Complete Warrior.

Yes, I know about the stealth errata, which is kinda classless. Yes, I know about the Divine Mind's fluff. Still, I think folks as a whole are too harsh on CPsi.

"Stealth" errata was the worst of it. A good chunk of the powers that were printed in that book were new, but the ones that did exist were still in 3.5. WotC said the Completes would be reprinting 3.0 material, and up until that point they had never used a Complete book to reprint 3.5 material at all.

At least CW's only "errata" was to PrCs, and that can be interpreted as only applying to PrCs presented in that book.


At least the other Completes had some moderately useful material for every class. The only useful things in CP are the Ardent, a feat, and two PrCs (one of which is available online).

[sreservoir]

And it's 20 xp/erudite level. That'd be good over a really long time period, but in an actual finite game PsyReform shuffling is almost as good and probably cheaper.

it's better to pay xp in advance, than when you actually need it, due to the "experience is a river" phenomenon.

and personally, I'd rather spend small amounts of xp than a feat to learn a cross-discipline power. keeping in mind it's keyed to erudite level, and that it's really not that difficult to prc out at 6, 8, or 10, if you plan your build, so the cost is no more than 200 xp at a time. psyref becomes available at 7th, so if you want to change your discipline, the minimum cost is 350 xp, or 100 to swap out an EK gained at 6th.

[Big Fau]

it's better to pay xp in advance, than when you actually need it, due to the "experience is a river" phenomenon.

It's actually better to PrC out of Erudite around 6th level, and then manipulate when you get new powers known so you end up paying >200xp for a 9th level power.

[sreservoir]

Even without Spell-to-Power shenanigans, the Erudite can still approach tier 1 in a similar way to an Artificer. With psionic item creation feats, they can tap into their potentially vast reservoir of powers known and craft items, both for obscure niche utility powers and dorjes of bread-and-butter powers. However, much like artificers, that depends on having the money and time to craft, which is certainly not guaranteed.

or, you could metaconcert with your pet rock. it did take wild/hidden talent for self-focusing for use with psicrystal containment, right?

[The Glyphstone]

OK, seriously, Complete Psionic has about the same crap-to-gems ratio of every other Complete book. In fact, I'd put it ahead of Complete Warrior.

Yes, it commits some pretty egregious fluff sins, and I'm not going to say otherwise, but really now, the reputation it has is really much worse than it deserves. None of the Complete books are pure gold from start to finish, and aside from Complete Divine, you're lucky if you get two genuinely interesting and useful base classes in any one of 'em. They all have piles of useless feats (you're going to tell me that Dwarven Urgrosh Soul Blade is significantly worse than Death Blow, Eagle Claw Attack, Soul of the North, Boar's Ferocity, or Lucky Break? Sure, it's no better, but I'd call it on par), piles of useless PrCs (hell, just leaf through the Iron Chef archives . . . quite a few are from the Completes, after all), and so on. Mixed in with the crap, you find a few things worth using. It's the same across the board. Some are slightly stronger, some are slightly weaker, but they're all about the same.

Yes, I know about the stealth errata, which is kinda classless. Yes, I know about the Divine Mind's fluff. Still, I think folks as a whole are too harsh on CPsi.

The thing is, we're harsh on it because aside from a tiny handful of other material in assorted Races of and Magic of books, it's the only support Psionics has ever received outside of its core book. Every other archtype/'power source' (to use a 4E term) has gotten multiple dedicated splats - even Invocations got supplementary material in two different books, but for the one book psionics got, most of it is awful. Call it a letdown of epic proportions as much as its actual content that invokes the hatred.

[sreservoir]

The thing is, we're harsh on it because aside from a tiny handful of other material in assorted Races of and Magic of books, it's the only support Psionics has ever received outside of its core book. Every other archtype/'power source' (to use a 4E term) has gotten multiple dedicated splats - even Invocations got supplementary material in two different books, but for the one book psionics got, most of it is awful. Call it a letdown of epic proportions as much as its actual content that invokes the hatred.

what even truenaming? even pact magic?

(admittedly, pact magic got decent stuff online and in dragon, and it ... but it's still probably behind psionics, and psionics had mind's eye, too.)

and psionics got some love in a few eberron books, no?

yeah, truenamers are decidedly worse off.

[The Glyphstone]

what even truenaming? even pact magic?

(admittedly, pact magic got decent stuff online and in dragon, and it ... but it's still probably behind psionics, and psionics had mind's eye, too.)

Well, okay, except Tome of Magic, but that's because it was printed right before 3.5 ended entirely (and because no one likes Truenaming, so its lack of support wasn't a problem). Incarnum is the exception, but it really is the redblue-headed stepchild of 3.5's special rulesets, and everyone forgets it exists anyways.

[sreservoir]

tome of battle got even less support -- does the errata file count?

psionics is fine even just with XPH. I mean, it's much better-balanced than core, right?

[The Glyphstone]

We don't speak of the ToB errata.

Though for that matter, ToB itself would more easily be classified as splatbook support for melee/martial classes, considering it was prewritten designed to integrate with non-martial adepts.

[Big Fau]

We don't speak of the ToB errata.

Not the WotC version anyway. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11890.msg405383#msg405383)



Though for that matter, ToB itself would more easily be classified as splatbook support for melee/martial classes, considering it was prewritten designed to integrate with non-martial adepts.

Actually there's evidence that it was to be a subset of Psionics. They scrapped the idea mid-Beta, but they left a few pieces of evidence.

[Urpriest]

Actually there's evidence that it was to be a subset of Psionics. They scrapped the idea mid-Beta, but they left a few pieces of evidence.

Eh, aside from some synergy the only evidence I've seen is the occasional use of the word power rather than maneuver. That's consistent with the idea that the book was a playtest of ideas that would show up in 4e, where power refers to any ability, not just psionic ones.

[shadow_archmagi]

Speaking of the Races of books, does anyone know if Illumians ever get any more love?

[Zaq]

If they did, I've never seen it. Thankfully, races don't need as much love as classes do.

[sreservoir]

old illumians (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2), though they were superseded by RoD illumians, so. I'd totally play one with LA buyoff, though.

[Zaq]

old illumians (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2), though they were superseded by RoD illumians, so. I'd totally play one with LA buyoff, though.

Duuuuuude. How weird! I have to say that I like the current version better (they're more widely applicable to non-SRD classes, and they're not quite as horrifically broken, with a couple exceptions for some shenanigans you can pull), but still, that's a neat bit of history.

[Psyren]

The thing is, we're harsh on it because aside from a tiny handful of other material in assorted Races of and Magic of books, it's the only support Psionics has ever received outside of its core book. Every other archtype/'power source' (to use a 4E term) has gotten multiple dedicated splats - even Invocations got supplementary material in two different books, but for the one book psionics got, most of it is awful. Call it a letdown of epic proportions as much as its actual content that invokes the hatred.

I'm as disappointed in CPsi as anyone else, but let's give credit where it's due. No other alternate power source got anywhere near the kind of love that Psionics did through Mind's Eye. ACFs, PrCs, feats, powers... if it weren't for the fact that psionics is the only power source where 3.0 material is nearly useless, they would have so much alternate material throughout ME's run that they wouldn't even need a Complete.


old illumians (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2), though they were superseded by RoD illumians, so. I'd totally play one with LA buyoff, though.

:smalleek:

Those are... wow.

[Psyren]

It's actually better to PrC out of Erudite around 6th level, and then manipulate when you get new powers known so you end up paying >200xp for a 9th level power.

PrCing out of Erudite is not simple, however. A strict reading of RAW means that if your levels in any PrC catch up with your Erudite levels, you lose your ability to learn discipline powers forevermore, thoroughly defeating the point of being an Erudite in the first place. You can PrC out, but it requires "weaving" PrC levels and Erudite levels, granting the PrC benefits more slowly.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm as disappointed in CPsi as anyone else, but let's give credit where it's due. No other alternate power source got anywhere near the kind of love that Psionics did through Mind's Eye. ACFs, PrCs, feats, powers... if it weren't for the fact that psionics is the only power source where 3.0 material is nearly useless, they would have so much alternate material throughout ME's run that they wouldn't even need a Complete.



:smalleek:

Those are... wow.

True. Mind's Eye was fantastic, I personally like to consider it the 'true' CPsi, especially since the best bits of the book (Ardent, Soulbow) were previewed online anyways.

[Big Fau]

PrCing out of Erudite is not simple, however. A strict reading of RAW means that if your levels in any PrC catch up with your Erudite levels, you lose your ability to learn discipline powers forevermore, thoroughly defeating the point of being an Erudite in the first place. You can PrC out, but it requires "weaving" PrC levels and Erudite levels, granting the PrC benefits more slowly.

Yeah, but it isn't too hard to go Erudite 10/Anarchic Initiate 9/Erudite+1.

[The Glyphstone]

old illumians (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2), though they were superseded by RoD illumians, so. I'd totally play one with LA buyoff, though.

Heck, I'd play one without LA buyoff. The shenanigans you could get up to with some of those sigils and sigil combinations are impressive.

Also, LOL@balance, because "+1 to melee damage with one weapon) is equally powerful against "can wildshape into something 3HD higher than normal" and "knows 3 extra spells".

[NoldorForce]

Eh, aside from some synergy the only evidence I've seen is the occasional use of the word power rather than maneuver. That's consistent with the idea that the book was a playtest of ideas that would show up in 4e, where power refers to any ability, not just psionic ones.So far as I've been able to tell, Tome of Battle was actually the third (and best) attempt by Mike Mearls at reworking melee characters.

The first showed up in Arcana Evolved (a third-party sourcebook by Monte Cook) as the ritual combat (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_diary_37) system (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_MCAE_rites). It was interesting, but it suffered from being bound by a uses-per-day setup. (Per-encounter balance is one of the hidden design assumptions of ToB that I adore.)

The second showed up in Iron Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_heroes#Player.27s_Companion) (another third-party sourcebook, originally by Monte Cook's publishing house of Malhavoc Press). Unlike the Sublime Way and ritual combat, it wasn't focused on offering new abilities as discrete little packages. Rather, it dramatically reworked the feats, skills, and classes to make all weapon-based characters (not just melee, there was an archer class) viable. There was a single spellcasting class, but playing it was like gambling in a casino.