Any zweihander warblade builds out there?

[Snowbluff]

Hi guys! I got started in an evil campaign as a level 1 goliath warblade. I was wondering if you know any nifty tricks for fighting with 2h weapons as warblade.

Most of 3.5 is fair game for me, but I have to be evil. My level adjustment was waved since it was a premade. Also, I'd like ot fight with a falchion, since I normally TWF as melee.

Thanks for your input!

[Lateral]

...Umm. You do know that two-handed weapon combat is generally considered far more powerful than TWF, right?

Anyway, for starters, you can take Power Attack and kill things. At level 1, that's pretty much it- you are level 1, after all. Later on, you can take Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Knockback to be able to shift your to-hit penalty from Power Attack to AC, be able to bull rush on any successful attack, and be able to push people in different directions. You can also take the Leap Attack feat to get 4x damage on a charge if you make an easy Jump check.

[Essence_of_War]

Make sure you take Emerald Razor. Power Attack for full. It's delightful.

You could go the shock trooper line, but since I have personal reservation against using the shock trooper feat, I'd recommend going down the Combat Brute line. Here's some fun things you can do:

1) Improved Sunder + Sundering Cleave. Use your favorite damage dealing maneuver on their weapon to break it, then follow it up with beating them in the face.

2) Any WR charge maneuver + Momentum Swing. Follow up the charge with x3 power attack returns.

3) Charging Minotaur + Advancing Blows - Hooray!

Edit: Check out the warblade handbook in my sig, it's got a great roadmap to point you towards some efficient feats, maneuvers, and combat styles.

My only reservation in telling you not to go down the Shock Trooper line is that for the Goliath, you have potential access to the Knockback feat, which has Imp. BR as a pre-req, and at that point Combat Brute is a much larger investment than Shock Trooper.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Make sure you take Emerald Razor. Power Attack for full. It's delightful.

Especially against really big dragons.

[Lateral]

Thing is, Shock Trooper is epic for goliaths, what with the knockback synergy- you're actually using all three parts of the tactical feat.

[Essence_of_War]

Especially against really big dragons.

Especially then.

But don't feel like you have to save it for special occasions. When you're the size of a Goliath, when you hit people with Emerald Razor + full power attack, they STAY hit.

A sexy combo to consider:

Exotic Weapon Prof with Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe. At some point take a 1 level dip in Exotic Weapon Master (CWar), taking the Uncanny Blow ability, and now you deal 2x str damage when you THF with your bastard sword or dwarven waraxe. This has the added advantage of letting you use a shield at low levels to improve your AC/survivability and transition to a deadly THF damage dealer at the mid+ levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thing is, Shock Trooper is epic for goliaths, what with the knockback synergy- you're actually using all three parts of the tactical feat.

Take levels in dungeoncrasher fighter as well. And Leap Attack. Then take Leaping Dragon Stance and max out your jump check (use Sudden Leap to get double jumps for more height if the DM allows it), then jump over enemies and slam them into the ground for dungeoncrasher damage, Mario style!

[Essence_of_War]

Let me expand on Swiftmongoose and Lateral's idea:

Start as a fighter for the first 6 levels, taking dungeoncrasher ACF at 2nd and 6th level. Everything Else Warblade.

You'll still get 1st/4th level bonus feats still.

You absolutely need:
Power Attack
Imp BR
Knockback
Shock Trooper

If you have the intelligence, take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip also.

You can now use all modes of the Shock Trooper feat, to great benefit. You will be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield, your passive bullrushing + directed bull rush from shock trooper allows you to move people anywhere (or make sure they end up getting rushed into walls). If your enemies are in groups, you can happily knock them into each other, trip the group with Domino Rush, and continue to wreak havoc on them as they attempt to stand up provoking AoOs from you (you're still using knockback, right?)

[Snowbluff]

...Umm. You do know that two-handed weapon combat is generally considered far more powerful than TWF, right?

Anyway, for starters, you can take Power Attack and kill things. At level 1, that's pretty much it- you are level 1, after all. Later on, you can take Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Knockback to be able to shift your to-hit penalty from Power Attack to AC, be able to bull rush on any successful attack, and be able to push people in different directions. You can also take the Leap Attack feat to get 4x damage on a charge if you make an easy Jump check.

First of all, I like my dual scimmy Time-Stands-Still awesomeness, don't be bashing it.

That said, nice choices. I already have power attack, and I would not have bothered with bull rush until I noticed you can AoO on one. Knockback also escaped my attention, but it is a goody. It does bother me that it does not provoke AoO though.

Finally, is there not a maneuver that lets you take a step each time you hit a hit a foe? Would it not be neat to use combat reflexes, slashing flurry, and that to knock a foe around like a rag doll? THough, I am beginning to think that this line of thought is why knockback does not allow AoO :smallannoyed:

[Essence_of_War]

Combat Brute gives you Advancing Blows which gives you bonuses to hit and damage on the next round if you bull-rush (read: knockback) somebody.

Evasive Reflexes allows you to take a 5-ft step anytime anyone provokes an AoO, instead of taking the AoO.

I think that's sort of the closest to what you're talking about, and neither are really spot on.

[Snowbluff]

Combat Brute gives you Advancing Blows which gives you bonuses to hit and damage on the next round if you bull-rush (read: knockback) somebody.

Evasive Reflexes allows you to take a 5-ft step anytime anyone provokes an AoO, instead of taking the AoO.

I think that's sort of the closest to what you're talking about, and neither are really spot on.

Okay, I am really liking the combat brute Idea.

Also, emerald razor and sapphire nightmare strike are my favorite low level maneuvers, I readily suggest them to all of my friend who are starting a WB or dipping SW.

What about stances and counters/boosts. You have any personal faves you'd like to suggest?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, I am really liking the combat brute Idea.

Also, emerald razor and sapphire nightmare strike are my favorite low level maneuvers, I readily suggest them to all of my friend who are starting a WB or dipping SW.

What about stances and counters/boosts. You have any personal faves you'd like to suggest?

Leaping Dragon, Blood in the Water, Hunter's Sense (it's a limited blindsense!), Hearing the Air (now you wish you could trade out Hunter's Sense). Martial Stance (Step of the Wind) is always good for chargers, although you might be able to get so good with Leaping Dragon + jump check that you don't need it.

[Seerow]

Consider a dip into barbarian. For 1 level, you can rage for +6 strength and become large once a day, and I believe that size change is compatible with other size increases. A single feat for extra rage will make sure you can basically always do it. And you can trade in fast movement for pounce, saving your maneuver space for other stuff.

[Essence_of_War]

All of the save replacing counters are worth a look. You'd have to be insane to not take the will-save replacement, and for the others you can weigh the marginal benefits. Reflex saves are nice to pass, but they usually only cause HP damage. You're likely to have a ton of that already. Fort saves are usually bad news if you fail, but your Con score should be high, and your base fort saves are solid anyway. I can see passing on the fort/reflex replacement unless you know your DM REALLY likes save-or-dies.

Wall of Blades is a fantastic counter to have up your sleeve also. The first time you follow up a heedless charge for full power attack with a wall of blades, you're likely to squeal.

The Warblade boosts are usually stronger for the TWF crowd, but White Raven Tactics is obviously insane, and Iron Heart Surge certainly deserves a look. If you can afford the irritating pre-reqs, Sudden Leap is a fantastic way of maneuvering yourself about the battlefield.

As far as stances go, Punishing Stance is great at low levels. There's also a great diamond mind stance that allows you to use multiple counters each round. This could certainly be useful. Hearing the Air is a solid choice if you've got a few other DM maneuvers, and if you're dedicated to Tiger Claw stuff, the Leaping Dragon stance is exceedingly useful.

I'd re-iterate my suggestion from above that you take a careful look at the Warblade handbook in my sig. The maneuver ratings gives you a solid map to the best choices at each level.

Edit: Semi-swordsage'd by swiftmongoose :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

All of the save replacing counters are worth a look. You'd have to be insane to not take the will-save replacement, and for the others you can weigh the marginal benefits. Reflex saves are nice to pass, but they usually only cause HP damage. You're likely to have a ton of that already. Fort saves are usually bad news if you fail, but your Con score should be high, and your base fort saves are solid anyway. I can see passing on the fort/reflex replacement unless you know your DM REALLY likes save-or-dies.

Wall of Blades is a fantastic counter to have up your sleeve also. The first time you follow up a heedless charge for full power attack with a wall of blades, you're likely to squeal.

The Warblade boosts are usually stronger for the TWF crowd, but White Raven Tactics is obviously insane, and Iron Heart Surge certainly deserves a look. If you can afford the irritating pre-reqs, Sudden Leap is a fantastic way of maneuvering yourself about the battlefield.

As far as stances go, Punishing Stance is great at low levels. There's also a great diamond mind stance that allows you to use multiple counters each round. This could certainly be useful. Hearing the Air is a solid choice if you've got a few other DM maneuvers, and if you're dedicated to Tiger Claw stuff, the Leaping Dragon stance is exceedingly useful.

I'd re-iterate my suggestion from above that you take a careful look at the Warblade handbook in my sig. The maneuver ratings gives you a solid map to the best choices at each level.

Edit: Semi-swordsage'd by swiftmongoose :smalltongue:

Yeah, I have been shuffling through it. The maves stuff I mostly already know, but these feat tips are great!

Also, about using Wolf Pack Tactics to stay within reach of a target, would that be useful? Do you move with the target you bull rush?


Consider a dip into barbarian. For 1 level, you can rage for +6 strength and become large once a day, and I believe that size change is compatible with other size increases. A single feat for extra rage will make sure you can basically always do it. And you can trade in fast movement for pounce, saving your maneuver space for other stuff.

Yeah, I have conidered it and I will give it Another look.


Leaping Dragon, Blood in the Water, Hunter's Sense (it's a limited blindsense!), Hearing the Air (now you wish you could trade out Hunter's Sense). Martial Stance (Step of the Wind) is always good for chargers, although you might be able to get so good with Leaping Dragon + jump check that you don't need it.

Blood in the Water sounds great, I do not know how useful it will be without twf and I don't if/when I'll be getting a Scabbard o' Keen Edges. Still, in my opinion, +1/+1 sounds better then the bonus from Punishing Stance.

[Greenish]

Also, about using Wolf Pack Tactics to stay within reach of a target, would that be useful?It can work, but you usually have better options.


Do you move with the target you bull rush?Normally, yes, if you rush 'em for more than 5'. With Knock-back, no.

[Curious]

Yeah, I have been shuffling through it. The maves stuff I mostly already know, but these feat tips are great!

Also, about using Wolf Pack Tactics to stay within reach of a target, would that be useful? Do you move with the target you bull rush?



Yeah, I have conidered it and I will give it Another look.



Blood in the Water sounds great, I do not know how useful it will be without twf and I don't if/when I'll be getting a Scabbard o' Keen Edges. Still, in my opinion, +1/+1 sounds better then the bonus from Punishing Stance.

Re-iterating this; you should always, always have a maneuver slot saved for IHS and White Raven Tactics. WRT basically gives you an extra turn whenever you feel like it (since you count as your own ally), and IHS can be used to end the universe. Incredibly powerful.

[Essence_of_War]

Re-iterating this; you should always, always have a maneuver slot saved for IHS and White Raven Tactics. WRT basically gives you an extra turn whenever you feel like it (since you count as your own ally), and IHS can be used to end the universe. Incredibly powerful.

Mostly agree here, with the caveat that IHS can fall flat occasionally. The ToB says that you need to be able to move around to initiate maneuvers. IHS is no exception, so you can't use it to break things like paralysis, stun, daze, or other situations when you CAN take purely mental actions, but your physical actions are restricted.

That being said, how many non-disjunction methods are there to break an AMF? Being able to shrug off blindness is nice, and exploding a solid fog will make you feel like a real badass :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

WRT should be fine to use on yourself in most games. There is some potential for cheese when combined with the RKWindicator's Divine Impulse ability. Don't do that. Moreover, YMMV, but I've found it makes my IC allies and my OOC tablemates enjoy having me around even more when I use WRT to let them double down on actions and do cool things too!

[Snowbluff]

Re-iterating this; you should always, always have a maneuver slot saved for IHS and White Raven Tactics. WRT basically gives you an extra turn whenever you feel like it (since you count as your own ally), and IHS can be used to end the universe. Incredibly powerful.

IHS sounds amazing!

But about WRT. i do not think you can use it on yourself. I specifically says one ally within 10 ft. Do you count as your own ally? I would probably need a precedent for my DM to make that kind of ruling.

[Essence_of_War]

Ask your DM. By a strict reading, you qualify as your own ally.

If your DM disagrees. Take the maneuver ANYWAY, and use it to pump your allies. The team wins. WRT is honestly fantastic no matter who is getting the extra actions. Well...mostly...as long as they aren't wasting the actions.

[Greenish]

Do you count as your own ally?By default, yes.

[Snowbluff]

Okay, I'll speak with my DM. Fortunately, I am the closest thing the group has to a rules lawyer, so convincing should not be too hard.

Also, about other classes.

Barbarian is right out. i can not use Combat Reflexes and Rage at the same time.

I'll take a look at Dungeoncrasher Fighter, I just happen to have the book for it.

Eternal blade is right out since I am not an Elf, which also means I probably will not be dipping in SW for more Diamond Mind slots.

Bloodstorm blade seems week, I'll have to see if it lets me get more maves as I level it. Alot of the suggested/liked feats in this thread are able to be taken as fighter feats.

Any other tips, suggestions, or ways around requirements?

[Essence_of_War]

Bloodstorm blade seems week, I'll have to see if it lets me get more maves as I level it. Alot of the suggested/liked feats in this thread are able to be taken as fighter feats.



BSB is actually pretty strong, but it's sort of a "build around me" type PrC, and you def don't get more maneuvers from it. You can use it to turn into Captain America (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6865666&postcount=60). Which is pretty fun, if you want to go that route. Since you can take knockback, I'd certainly work 6 fighter levels into the Cap'n build for obvious reasons if you went this path.

A few dips that might be worthwhile if you need extra feats to get the fun stuff online:
1) Monk 2 - gets you three feats (IUS + 2 others (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm), the Overwhelming attack variant fits well)
2) Cleric 1 - Trade your travel domain for travel devotion. Have the undead domain to get extra turning to make sure you can use it for each encounter?
3) Fighter 1/2/6 - bonus feats and dungeoncrasher are always nice
4) Exotic weapon master 1 - if you've used exotic weapon prof to fight with a one-handed melee weapon (Bastard Sword or Dwarven waraxe) in two hands.

Edit: If you've already decided to get the 2 Dungeoncrasher ACFs don't dip anything else. Any additional dips will keep you from getting 9th level maneuvers.

[Cieyrin]

If you have the intelligence, take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip also.

You can now use all modes of the Shock Trooper feat, to great benefit. You will be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield, your passive bullrushing + directed bull rush from shock trooper allows you to move people anywhere (or make sure they end up getting rushed into walls). If your enemies are in groups, you can happily knock them into each other, trip the group with Domino Rush, and continue to wreak havoc on them as they attempt to stand up provoking AoOs from you (you're still using knockback, right?)

Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) saves you some feats and naturally leads into Knockdown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), which is made of WIN.

Also, nowhere in Rage does it say you can't use Combat Reflexes, you're thinking of Combat Expertise, which is denied.


Blood in the Water sounds great, I do not know how useful it will be without twf and I don't if/when I'll be getting a Scabbard o' Keen Edges. Still, in my opinion, +1/+1 sounds better then the bonus from Punishing Stance.

Scabbards of Keen Edges are bad, at least in my experience. It requires a standard action to activate, as a command word item, so unless you want to stand around doing a Power Up Dance when you should be charging and following the Conan Creed (To crush your enemies, drive them before you and hear the lamentations of their women!), I'd just Keen on the weapon or pursue Improved Critical, which'll save you money in a TWF build.

[herrhauptmann]

Hi guys! I got started in an evil campaign as a level 1 goliath warblade. I was wondering if you know any nifty tricks for fighting with 2h weapons as warblade.

Most of 3.5 is fair game for me, but I have to be evil. My level adjustment was waved since it was a premade. Also, I'd like ot fight with a falchion, since I normally TWF as melee.

Thanks for your input!
So, are you doing a two handed weapon, or a two weapon style? You've said you want to do one, but suggestions keep going back to TWF.

If you want all the martial maneuvers you can possibly get, then yes, Bloodstorm is 'weak' due to a lack of maneuvers. Otherwise, it's strong. Among other things, it's the best way for a melee character to deal damage at range. So you could use up one of your IH maneuvers to hit someone from 50 feet away. Then use Thunderous throw, and make use of all your combat feats to hit someone from a distance. A short time later, you'll be able to do a full attack at range, using all your feats again.

Or you could sit back and plink at someone with arrows, for 1d8+str+magic bonus per hit.

[Snowbluff]

Thank you for your input!

As for classes, I am thinking 15WB/2WolfTotemBarb/2DCFighter

I think I can fit Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, and Knockdown in with this.

[Keld Denar]

Blah, you kids. You're gonna get the poor guy's build banned. Shocktrooper is NOT a low-op feat. If his friends are going to be playing low OP stuff, keeping up with a Shocktrooping Warblade is gonna be a losing battle. 9/10 says that the whole PC gets banned because of Shocktrooper.

You can still have tons of fun with just PA + Imp Bull Rush + Knockback, combined with your maneuvers. Shocktrooper is a poorly designed feat because it takes all of the risk vs reward out of Power Attack and replaces it with reward. That basically turns your character into a member of the rocket tag brigade. You either reduce your foe to a fine red mist, or you get misted yourself. Very little middle ground, because let me tell you, if you charge your DM's dragon wish Shocktrooper for full and you fail to kill it? That dragon is gonna full PA multiattack you back, and you WON'T survive it.

Just an observation from a DM with a bit of experience. Springing something like this on an inexperienced DM can NOT end well.

[Essence_of_War]

This is why I recommended against the shock trooper feat :smallbiggrin:

Although, if you're willing to tie your own hands a little, you could still have fun with the first two modes and avoid the third.

[Cieyrin]

This is why I recommended against the shock trooper feat :smallbiggrin:

Although, if you're willing to tie your own hands a little, you could still have fun with the first two modes and avoid the third.

Combat Brute is neat and not likely to get books thrown at you. :smallwink: